UKC

Hey peeps, 

OK, please be gentle with me about this, and don't laugh! 😜

I was wondering about drilling a couple of anchor bolts into the side of my house (cotswold stone, which I believe is limestone) so I can practice rappelling from my 2nd floor window. 

This idea also has the added bonus of providing an additional escape route for my family if the house were on fire on the ground or first floor - something I've long considered since getting our loft extension. 

So, what's the consensus? Is this a ridiculously stupid and dangerous idea, or does it have legs - assuming of course I drill more than one anchor point?

The bricks are fairly large 8-10 x 4-5 inch and around 4 inches deep, and well set (house is only 15 years old.  I'm working on the theory that forces will primarily be vertical, so maybe this would work? 

🤔😬

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Bricks?

Don't bother, I'd say. The travelling-down-the-rope part of abseiling is not difficult, certainly not enough to warrant modifying your house. If you really want to practice abseiling, MUCH safer and easier to just find a sturdy tree at the top of a gentle slope and do it there.

It's not obvious to me whether you're a climber (or caver etc) or how experienced a climber you are, so apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs. If you have no experience getting down from high places in a tizzy then I think that trying to lower yourself and your family out of a burning building is likely to land you in trouble, given that you will be under a lot of stress. The fire service won't thank you if you muck up your systems and they have to pick you off the side of your house (or worse). IMO you'd be better off just kitting out your house with fire doors.

If you are an experienced climber then there are probably other options in your house that could work instead of a bolted anchor, such as threading doorframes. If you're not confident of your ability to assess whatever options you have, refer to the previous paragraph. If you are, you don't need my advice for what to consider. 

Yeah, it'll probably work fine for abseil practice, 3 bolts that are well spaced on different blocks would do it I would think.

If you want it to function as a fire escape, can I suggest having a rope ladder permanently attached and rolled up with a quick-release cord to drop it down? Strong people and light people should be able to escape that way (heavy and weak people will probably just have to jump for it though). It seems unlikely that you'd want to rig an anchor, put on a harness, locate your abseil gear and then finally get on abseil, all while not being able to see and choking to death in a thick pall of smoke.

better to fit 30 min fire doors on the route to the ground floor (as per legal requirements). If you have to ask about viability of your plan, that would indicate it's not for you. 

Knowing how weak Cotswold stone is, I wouldn't trust the bolts. It's likely that the bolts would fail very quickly...

Structural engineer here,

In short, hard no, it's a very bad idea.

In terms of a fire escape the advice of the fire service would be to stay put, close the doors and let them come and get you out if you are trapped. Even a normal domestic doors will keep you safe for 20 min or so. Assuming you having working smoke alarms on each floor you should have plenty of notice to get out in the event of a fire before it get to such a point that it would trap you. 

Is that a legal requirement in Scotland?  It isn't in England in a house (rather than a flat) - the only proper fire door I have is between the porch and the lounge, and that isn't for fire reasons but because the frame was set up for a 45mm thick door plus it's quite good against the cold.  Interesting.

Are you not allowed open-plan lounge to staircase in Scotland?

(I do know in England there has to be a door between the kitchen and the route to an external door from upstairs, so you can have the staircase open to the lounge OR an open plan lounge-kitchen, not both, taking into account that most fires start in the kitchen, but I don't believe the door has to be a fire door, any domestic door will do)

Might of course be different for new builds.

On your original point I have thought through, out of interest, would I have enough climbing gear to escape from the upper floors of a tower block in a fire like Grenfell where smoke had made the staircase unusable but there weren't yet flames all the way round.  The conclusion was yes, I did, but anchoring the rope would be a challenge.  I concluded in the end that the bed is probably big and heavy enough that it could be wedged across the window aperture and used as an anchor with the rope all the way round.

Not much use to me really, though, as I live in a house with a front and back porch, so getting out from upstairs is really easy, step onto the desired porch and jump down.

it's always been my understanding that if you add a 2nd floor or loft conversion all doors that you'd pass whilst heading directly out in the event of a fire need to be rated to 30mins. Many also need new rated ceilings between 1st floor and loft. 

Bolting your house?! I always knew it was a slippery slope and a very thin-ended wedge indeed! Haven't read the OP, but solidarity! We'll be down soon with our largest hexes and an angle grinder to beat these bloody bolters back to where they came from (N. Yorkshire probably)...

I thought it was only specific rooms where the majority of fires starts, kitchens and anywhere with fuel burning appliances. 

Even if it is it would make sense to keep the exit clear.

I'm going off what a friend has just had done, he added upwards and had to change living room doors off the hall downstairs etc... he's a building surveyer and manages whole sites as part of his business, so it's his thing. I'll enquire out of interest if he had to, or if he was just belt and braces, as the kids bedrooms are up in what is the top floor. 

Ah, you might be correct about a second floor.  I guess the presumption for a normal 2 storey house is that you go out of the window.

For abseil practice, the simplest thing to do is put a piece of 4x4 across the window frame and tie a rope to that.

Abseil as a fire escape is not likely to work, even if you sleep in a climbing or caving harness.

Lew Brown, Pex legend, abseiled out of his flat in Gambier Terrace (where the Beatles lived for a time) in Liverpool to escape a fire. It was on the front page of the Liverpool Echo.

In the event of a fire, it's actually quite difficult to quickly find a secure anchorage to ab from in an existing house. Just look around the upper floors of your own house for locations where you could quickly build a secure anchorage. Door and window handles and catches are very iffy, plumbing and central heating pipes are also iffy. Most furniture is out of the question, unless you can wedge it behind a door opening and tie the rope around it, and it is sturdy enough to take the strain. Even a bed or settee would be iffy on the basis that if it was carried or pushed into it's position, then it will probably slide under you weight if you try abing from it. Bannister rails and spindles are likely to break, although a solid newel post might be ok with the fixing tied low towards the base. Passing a rope through the roof hatch to secure around a solid timber like a purlin is probably one of the best anchorages, but you need to be able to access the roof.

Any other suggestions?

Rather over thinking the whole thing. Even if you just lowered yourself off the window sill you'd probably survive. 

If there were two people trapped then the second could lower the first (most vulnerable) person down on a body belay just braced against something and I'm fairly sure any half tidy bed frame would take the weight of one person.

You only have to slow the fall slightly.

What are the chances a bed following you out of a typical bedroom window anyway?😆

Bed across the window aperture or doorframe.

Actually that's exactly what happened when aged 13 I tried to do a classic ab from my bedroom window having tied the rope around my bed on the opposite side of the room, and it slid across the floor depositing me on the ground with quite a bump. It didn't actually follow me out of the window! As gethin says it did slow down my descent to the extent that I wasn't hurt

Bolting into your house when it's on ablaze is a big no-no according to the fire service.

Trying a classic ab in the altogether trying to escape a fire- there's a thought that brings tears to the eyes !

Bolting into your house? Do you have violent neighbours?

A bit of forethought and planning , as always , is helpful.

Fire escape ladders with a double hook arrangement to fit over the window cill cost about £40.

Up thread , using a 4*4 timber across the window door or loft hatch has already been mentioned. by Graham D.

When we slept on the second floor , I had rope, slings and descenders under the bed ready, and a drilled hole through exposed wooden beam with fixed sling.

Two holes through the plaster board and a sling threaded over a ceiling joist would do the same job.

Sorry to sound like a smart ar*e but  lives could be saved  here.

As a fellow engineer I get asked this question ALOT. Agree. Mega no 

Why?  Hilti anchors, for example, have well documented lateral load capacities for a variety of substrates, including brick, which will above the forces abseiling produces.  Done carefully it should work, I would say.

Very true. But did the designer who designed their house expect a point load? And depending where the bolts are placed could interfere with an load path that Isn’t obvious… 

the list goes on. Safer and easier to just say nope 

By that logic, I would not dare to hang pictures, shelves  or a hanging basket onto my house.

If I can abseil off a bootlace sling, I am sure a safe fixing could be calculated / designed/ recommended for 99% of a house  structure.

Rick , climber for 54 years complete with a 47 year old civil engineering degree and most of my working life in construction .

Here’s my disclaimer:

”please do what makes you happy Rick, though I personally wouldn’t recommend it.”

is that better ?

Regards

paddy

Interesting, as I'm currently looking at getting a fire escape ladder for my stone cottage. Most ladders advertised use an arrangement that hooks over the  window frame and the cills but can't be used on my cottage as the walls are too thick. The window is side hung and meets the building regs for a fire escape window. So I've found one online with two screwgate climbing carabiners - I'd have to put in a couple of bolts under the window. I'm considering the ethics of this and, in any case, it all needs to be OK'd by the boss (my wife). Just as an aside, the force exerted by an abseiling climber or person (not too chubbily-challenged) escaping down a fire escape ladder is insanely negligible compared to virtually any fixing method. Speaking as a non civil engineer but someone who has abseiled from a single ancient rusty caving bolt in the slate quarries - I did shut my eyes when the weight came on the 'belay'.

Wow, first time posting on this forum and I'm amazed at the response! Thanks all. 😊

Not replied until now as for some reason I've not received any notifications of responses on my phone. Will check settings/spam/etc and remedy. 

OK, so a little more context...

First off, I'm pretty new to climbing, so am full of dim arse questions like this. 😂 But, as I see it, better to ask questions and research than just jump straight in and 'give it a bash'! Don't worry, I'm massively safety conscious (my current climbing partner might say too much so!), and the absolute last thing I want to do is risk hurting myself or others.

I have however been 100% bitten by the climbing bug and keen to get on ropes in whatever way I can to practice. Climbing gym and nearest crags are 45mins away though, so somewhat limited in my ability to get there as frequently as I'd like. Hence why looking for ways to play about (safely) closer to home.

Whilst there's a few tentative maybes, the cast majority of responses think this is a ridiculously stupid idea...so I'm going with those! Haha

Thanks all

Chris 

There's a big difference between putting bolts into a rubble stone wall and what is likely a timber frame construction with a masonry outer leaf wall that the OP is talking about for their house.

As far as I know one doesn't get any notification that there's been a reply to your post- one has to visit the forum and check. 

If there were any way to get notifications, I'd turn them off immediately!