UKC

Hi all, looking to equip some rather damp bolted routes with permadraws/chaindraws and wanted some advice...

1. I’ve added links below to gear I’ve found online so far. Are there any other products/suppliers I should be considering?
2. From a bit of reading and given where they’ll be used is wet (not marine), I’m assuming chains are a better option for this application the plastic wrapped cables. Or am I missing something?
3. Any tips, tricks or other things to consider?

For context they’ll be going on a mix of M10 steel and M12 316 SS expansion bolts and hangers.

Captive Steel Carabiners:

Fixe Steel Gym https://www.fixeclimbing.com/en/climbing-gym/1256-steel-gym-8000000001214.h...

Beal BE Smith Captive https://www.beal-planet.com/en/karabiners/1571-be-smith-captive.html

Singing Rock Artwall https://www.singingrock.com/artwall

DMM alpha steel: https://dmmwales.com/products/alpha-steel

Climbtech Steel: https://climbtech.com/products/steel-carabiner-with-captive-pin-1/ 

Metal extenders:

Fixe Cable draws: Fixe CB Express Wire https://www.fixeclimbing.com/en/climbing-gym/1264-130-cb-express-wire-84360...

Bolt Products Chain Links and Maillons: http://www.bolt-products.com/MaillonsRingsandChain.htm

I would bin any of the suggestions intended for indoor use, they won't be the right grade of stainless (if they are stainless at all).

Plastic wrapped would give a chance for water to become trapped and probably hasten the corrosion of the cable. I have normally seen chains on permadraws, from what I can tell you will probably find it easier buying chain from a general chain supplier rather than someone climbing specific. I haven't dealt with any so don't know who is/ isn't reputable unfortunately.

Yes. They are unnecessary, potentially unsafe in the long term and a blight on the landscape 

The very first link I clicked was Fixe one and that described itself as zinc. I'm not going to nerd out on galvanic series technical whatnot, just going to say avoid mixing dissimilar types of metal as far as possible.

Hopeing Jim Titt may read this thread and reply?

Stainless 316 through bolts are easiest to place,try Barrabes cheaper than most. GS products supply all sort of maillons eg( quick link  8mm £4 ish  20kn and chain.) Buy a few metres of  stainless chain disc cut to length attach to maillon on stainless hanger/ bolt etc. It's not rocket science,not a climbing supplier so no magic EN.......numbers but the breaking loads are given in kg easliy converted to Kn by jiggling the decimal point.  The clipping bits might be a problem as stainless are clunky( ok for lower offs) so just chuck your clipping crabs away every year.Google/sort the links out yourself.

Seriously if you are in the uk why bother,they'll get thieved or you will have a lynch mob after you. Stick clip up it to get draws in every session.

Reply about what? I make a fair number of permadraws (sent 60 to the USA a couple of weeks ago). I weld 6mm long-link chain into captive-eye stainless karabiners, either the customer uses maillons, shackles or rivet links to install them or I weld the bolt in directly. We cover them in two layers of shrink tube to make clipping easier.

Since the first EN standard from the early 90's required stainless steel for bolts I have no opinion on galvanic corrosion using other material since they are well past their use-by date.

Customers complain the stainless karabiners are hard to clip, they are so obviously more thumb training is required and there are no alternatives.

Please do!  that was going to be a follow up question.... For te bolts that aren't SS ow do we make sure it isn't the bolt/hanger that corrodes? Is using a non-stainless or a galvanized maillon to take the brunt of the corrosion a good/terrible idea?

Barrabes are good prices. Thanks for the tip.

Because they're a better option than the current insitu-perma draws. Getting up the routes isn't the issue, it's getting the draws back at the end of a session, as several of them are overhanging.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/horse-thief_and_moss_rake_lower...

This post of mine gives an explanation of galvanic corrosion. If the bolt is stainless then a none stainless mallion will corrode preferentially, however I would caution against using a safety related component for sacrificial corrosion protection for hopefully obvious reasons.

When you have galv (zinc coated) the zinc is most reactive and sacrificially protects the metal under it and to an extent cathodically protects electrically attached other steels. Once the zinc has corroded it may be the non stainless steel's turn.

But in real life it gets trickier than that... A lot depends on the location as various salts complicate things, also as stainless protection works from a protective surface, you can as a worst case scenario (e.g. conglomerate that has leachable salts in it, chloride and worse is sulphite) get weird corrosion inside the bolt placement with the surface looking perfect and the problem hidden.

If you haven't already bought kit. Best thing IMHO is directly contact Jim Titt (as above, Bolt Products) and tell him exactly where you are looking to bolt and source kit via him. I'm not on any commission, just think it'll work out better to buy matching stuff from same source -- and (unlike  me) he really knows his stuff, so follow whatever he says!