UKC

It is time to write my letter to Father Christmas, before my family decide I want socks or toiletries.  I am torn as to what is the best option to have as a mattress for bivying.  The options seem to be - 

1. Cheap and relatively light uninsulated but inflatable mattress - poor insulation, vulnerable to punctures but compact and comfortable.

2. Expensive insulated but inflatable mattress - far more insulated and comfortable but vulnerable to punctures.

3. 'Thermarest' type self-inflating mattress - insulated and comfortable but vulnerable to punctures, heavier and bulkier.

4. Egg box type closed cell foam - insulated, light and cheap but less comfort and rather bulky.

5. Traditional closed cell foam roll - insulated, light and cheap but minimal comfort and bulky.

I have tried using a combination of 1 with a very very thin egg box type layer.  Maybe the best of both worlds but maybe the worst of both - the total weight was higher than if I had just made up my mind and decided upon a single option.

It will be used in the UK from late spring to early autumn or possibly during an Alpine summer.  I don't do anything overly ambitious, there won't be any sitting on ledges in a storm etc.

I know that opinions differ but I would aim to put the mattress under my bivy bag, so as to protect the bivy bag and enable the sleeping bag to loft as well as possible.

So, what do people find works best?  

In reply to johnlc:

Non-insulated inflatable for me unless a campfire is involved, in which case its the old Army Karimat, padded off the ground with whatever I can find.

In reply to johnlc:

Get a Tyvek off cut from that auction site. Its what they make festival wrist bands out of. Light and tough. It will prevent, or certainly reduce, the chances of a puncture.

If I'm bivvying I put my air mat in my bivi bag, to protect the mat. If I get a small hole in the mat, it will deflate and I'll be sleeping on the cold ground. It will be a bad night. A small hole in the bivi bag, wont really make much difference. I can also patch it with gaffa tape after the event. (Fair point on lofting though.)

An inflatable pillow is worth its weight. Especially if it fits into the sleeping bag hood and doesnt ping off in the night.

In reply to johnlc:

1 + 4

Gives you a lightweight inflatable mat for the summer, then add the closed cell mat for extra ground insulation when required

In reply to johnlc:

Hi have gone through loads of mattresses, I would specifically recommend avoiding the mountain equipment ones. I am not sure about everybody else's experience but I splashed cash on the downmat which yes, was extremely light and warm, but it soon delaminated and the glue seperated essentially making it into a really expensive balloon. This happened in about 3 months, mountain equipment was hesitant to send me a new one so they sent a Synmat instead after a lot of bargaining, again, performance was great but after a few months the same thing happened, I gave up and just used my old Thermarest Neoair. This is a great mattress, I have had it for about 4 years now and it has never punctured, is super warm, lightweight and versatile. Used it from anything from doing the GR20 ultralight under a tarptent to winter camping in Scotland. In the warmer months I just used the mattress alone, surprisingly it never got punctured even on the bare forest floor. but I found the best combo for colder months is to use the thermarest Z lite under it. It is pretty cheap and surprisingly durable. This is a pretty solid combo that for me has lasted years without needing to replace it. There are cheaper alternatives to the Z lite that I am sure work just as well. Goes to show on my behalf at least don't replace something that works really well.

This setup is super versatile so won't hold you back in any other way. 

You can also just use a foam mattress from an Army Surplus. If it is good enough for the Marines I am sure it will be just fine. I used it in the cadets and I was just fine even considering I had slept on the £200 downmat before. Comfort is noticeable but not significant for the warmer months. Plus they are more comfy than they look. Cost £20 thereabouts and will last you forever.

You are paying a bit more for the Thermarest mattress but to be honest in the long run you will be saving money. Plus the Z lite will protect your mattress from sharp rocks and sticks.

In reply to johnlc:

https://alpkit.com/products/numo?variant=40691728056425

Inflatable mattress, 350g weight (that's ultralight), R value (insulation) 1.7 all for £46.99 -- how could you even consider another one?

When it gets very cold or for rocky bivvy or sharp ground add this underneath it.

https://alpkit.com/products/ez-sleeper-folding-foam-sleeping-mat?variant=39...

245g, R value 1.3, £24.99

Ask Father Christmas for both, I hope you've been good this year 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

The Numo is the only mat I've used that I've had lots of failures with. Delamination of insulation withe the first versions, seams and valves failing. Alpkit were always good about swapping for new ones but this seemed super wasteful and doesn't help you when out somewhere with a flat or cold mat! I've got an insulated S2S and a Thermarest neoair uberlite now which aren't dissimilar but not an issue with either in 8 and 5 years of regular usage. I have a lot of alpkit kit, but I'm a bit reticent about their mats due to lots of Numo problems.

In reply to TobyA:

I found the cloudbase far superior to the numo, a couple of years in with no punctures/delamination etc yet, where I went through a couple of numos, and something about the pipe shape would find me crumpled at one end or the other of it upon waking if I didn't camp somewhere perfectly flat

In reply to johnlc:

Bubble wrap for the win. Cheap and light and compact.  Double up in areas you want more padding.

In reply to johnlc: I've gone back to a zmat 'eggbox' style I've gut 2/3 and 1/3in length, only taking the 2/3 bit if I need to save space

In reply to johnlc:

For potentially rough bivvying I'd go closed cell for the reliability. I wish my original 80s yellow karrimat hadn't somehow gone awol in my last house move.

I get the impression self-inflating thermarests are somewhat out of fashion and obsolescent these days. I have a huge basecamp one that I still use for car camping, that's pretty much as comfy as my bed at home. Weighs about two kilos though. A lighter weight one might still be a decent compromise between warmth and comfort for bivvying.

I do most of my planned bivvies in winter on snow, which is fairly kind to mats, so I use an insulated inflatable for the warmth & comfort. Generally inside the bag for protection if I'm using my big heavy ex military goretex bivvy. But with a smaller & lighter bivvy with the mat inside, I have indeed had the problem of my winter sleeping bag not being able to loft properly.

In reply to johnlc:

Thanks very much indeed everyone for your advice and suggestions.  I think that if anything, it shows it is unsurprising that I can't make up my mind.

Can'tClimbTom, as it happens, the thin Alpkit EZ sleeper is exactly what I use, for a bit of protection and insulation underneath an Alpkit Cloudbase.  Like Huddschris though, I have found that two Cloudbases just gradually deflate now, despite having no discernable puncture.  I guess that they are just getting elderly, despite not being particularly old.

What this thread does perhaps show though is that it is a matter of horses for courses.  I am reassured that using something like closed cell foam to boost / protect an inflatable mat is a pretty reasonable idea.  If I really need to reduce the weight and volume of my pack, I need to toughen up and just take a closed cell mat.  I am sure my 53 year old bones will manage for a night or two.

In reply to johnlc:

5. Traditional closed cell foam roll - insulated, light, cheap, perfectly acceptable comfort if you've known nothing else.

In reply to johnlc:

Having just been through the same exercise but a long term fan of insulated inflatables, my only advice would be that if you're going down that route, only thing that really matters (given the cost of them) is to find a supplier with a lifetime warranty. Punctures are one thing but can be repaired, delamination is not. 

To my knowledge; thermarest and sea to summit are some of the only manufacturers with lifetime warranties. There may be more.

Does anyone still make close cell, i am stll using a 1980's Karrimat. Totally indestructable.

In reply to TobyA:

Same experience.

In reply to Dunthemall:

Multimat 

http://www.multimat.uk.com/pdfs/SS24-A4-Multimat-Brochure-(OUTDOOR)-v02-DP....

In reply to Dr.S at work:

The Multimat Superlite 8 with a Thermarest NeoAir small mat on top of it work really well together, and if the Thermarest deflates then the foam mat still provides warmth and a bit of comfort.

In reply to Dunthemall:

They're still readily available, but I've read that the old yellow karrimats have superior insulation to modern ones, but were made with a process that is environmentally harmful and therefore now banned. (See also DWR coatings on clothing)

In reply to Guy Hurst:

For years I used a very similar set up - but for me a RidgeRest (then later a Z Rest, nothing wrong with the now 25 year old RidgeRest but wanted a second foam mat for other family members) and on it my now 32 year old 3/4 length Thermarest Ultralight (about 1.5 cm thick I think?) - pack under feet for double insulation there. I've used this set up down to -27 on a couple of occasions and lots of Finnish winter camping at -10 to -20 sort of conditions, so it works really well. 

In reply to felt:

yes, i'm thinking of going back to something reliable after multiple airbed failures..

In reply to magma:

Which air mats have you had fail? I'm lucky that I got for reviewing two air mats that would probably have been too expensive for me to buy, but as I noted above both of them are still going strong despite plenty of use, including deliberately not being precious about them when bivvying. Just like my original Thermarest which is still working fine after over 30 years, whilst we've had cheapy copies from Decathlon and other places that haven't lasted well - so I do suspect that spending serious money on a mat might be a worthy investment. The Thermarest guarantee in particular is superb, my second Thermarest that I got when my partner started regularly camping with me developed a bubble after about 25 years, they just immediately sent me a new version which was of course slightly lighter. 

In reply to magma:

Good idea. Superbly reliable, and only bulky if you don't have compression straps. No need to treat them with kid gloves so fine close up to spitting fires, on spiky terrain etc. I've had two in thirty-five years, and only had to get the first replaced after it was half eaten by a pig.

In reply to johnlc:

Whatever system you choose make sure that somehow you dont end up sitting/ lying in a puddle if it rains.

No bivi bag seems capable of withstanding immersion in water. Slightly sloping , not dished mat seems to work. Ffiw I put drainage holes through my closed cell mat. Not advisable with a mattress!

( I prefer mat under bivibag)

In reply to Rick Graham:

Stops the bivvy bag getting punctured

In reply to TobyA:

cheap ones to be fair. had one like the cloudbase honeycomb but by karrimor that leaked from many of the corners where the layers were bonded together. may give the numo a go tho and get an inflator to pump it up rather than lungs (all that moisture inside can't be good?)

In reply to magma:

They gave up on putting insulation in the Numos because moisture made the glue fail. https://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2014/01/physics-you-can-sleep-on-des...