UKC

I'm looking for some advice for belaying second up after topping out. I'm a relatively new climber and I went out to Stanage on Sunday and lead 2 climbs so I had to belay my second up whilst sat at the top but found belaying very awkward on my shoulders with rope drag etc even when having my legs over the edge etc. I've tried to search for more info but all I find are examples where the anchors are above you so you can use a guide plate etc but on Stanage I see most people just top out and sit at the top whilst belaying.

Does anybody have any tips or things that I'm potentially missing to make it more comfortable? Or is that just the way it is?

TIA

1. Was there much rope drag when you lead the climb
2. Which belay device do you have

No the rope drag was ok, but I was only really saying that because I wasn't sure if it was rope drag or just the way I had my belay device that made it harder to pull in the slack. I have a Black Diamond ATC and a Grigri

Definitely a bit easier to use guide mode, but your ATC should be fine as long as your ropework is OK.

Just putting one bit of gear in the wrong place or not extending it can introduce loads of rope drag though, which is the most likely explanation. 

Put simply, you want to make sure your ropes are running in as straight a line as possible, use alpine quickdraws to extend runners that might otherwise introduce a bend in the rope. 

Yeah I would prefer to use guide mode but at Stanage I think most people sit on the top looking over and have their belay device on their figure of 8 loop or belay loop. I will keep that in mind about the rope drag, I'm still new to leading and trad so will make sure I think about that in the future. Thank you

Is it easier to use guide mode? I would say belaying off the waist loop was the easiest way at Stanage where anchors are generally at low level. 

I never really understand the modern trend for guide mode, it works OK on multi pitch with bolted stances, not so much on UK trad.

Rope drag? Stanage?

Perhaps it was a typo, Jim. Although w and t aren't quite adjacent on a keyboard! 

Think about your positioning relative to the anchor and your climber - sitting facing slightly sideways (whilst still being seated directly in a line between your anchor and second, with the rope to the anchor taut, so any pull from the climber runs through the rope to your anchor, rather than just pulling on you) might help a bit with getting into a less awkward position for taking in. You can test it by building your anchor, putting the rope through your belay device and then (before you belay) tug down on the rope running out of your belay device down to your second. And then take in a bit. Do you have everything oriented in the most comfortable way, including for locking off if they fall? With the wrong set up you can sometimes end up a bit twisted. 

I assume you're also extending your gear when you're leading to avoid drag-? It's perfectly possible to create drag if you don't do so and you're not using halfs (not sure why someone said you wouldn't at Stanage - there are some meandering routes and creating drag is a common mistake for new leaders who are just focused on getting gear in anywhere). 

Belaying at the top is quite awkward to get used to when you first start, especially left handed if you're right-handed, but this doesn't seem to get talked about that much in courses. When I very first started I used to go out with my mates to somewhere accessible like Burbage and just practise building anchors and belaying without leading first. If you're doing things right (assuming you've been taught properly) it will get easier with practice. 

And yes, if you look up anchor building on YouTube you'll come up with a lot of guide mode and bolted belay set-ups from North America. They don't rig anchors like we do - single pitch trad routes often don't involve topping out. Reputable UK guides or the BMC are the resources you need (and the V Diff website or the 'red book' climbing guide are decent too). 

If you're not confident though (and I think we're all struggling a bit to understand exactly what issue you're describing), go out for a day with someone who is *definitely* competent, like an instructor.

Well obviously you only use guide mode when there's a suitable anchor high up, doesn't happen often but there have been times on the grit edges when the opportunity has presented itself.

Oh and OP, as a general point, do take the time you need to set up an anchor safely when you're first starting. In hindsight most of the times I got tangled up into awkward situations were because I felt I had to rush. Just tell your partner to put on their big coat/midge spray (dependent on the season) before you start leading. Better to be safe and think things through. 

I sometimes get a bad back from sitting belays as you tend to lean forward and backwards as you take in slack.

If using a 50m rope at Stanage there's normally enough spare to build an anchor with some kind of 'bunny ears' type knot where you can clip in your belay device and use it in guide mode. 

Another point I would add, if sitting on the edge with your legs over and running your ropes back to the anchors, make sure that you have taken out as much slack as you possibly can as I've seen a few incidents where the belayer has been pulled off the edge and left dangling when their second has fallen off! 

It's hard to know why it was so uncomfortable from your post, but it shouldn't be... unless the midges are out! Taking in the rope can be tiring on the shoulders, though. Try to be deliberative about your movements (giving the movement attention really does help!) and tell your second to slow down if they are running up the climb. Also, sometimes we hold unecessary tension in our bodies after something that gets the adrenaline going... Otherwise... I dunno... sorry! Good luck

Were you belaying directly off the anchor (in 'guide mode'), or from the waist with the belay built around your tie-in knot(s)?

The former is not ideal for crags like Stanage (or any crag where you top out), as your belay anchors are perpendicular(ish) to the direction of pull. In other situations, belaying directly from the anchor is nice as it keeps you 'out of the system', but in this situation it can cause a lot of rope drag. A more 'traditional' belay off of your tie-knot is much more flexible (despite the inconvenience of you being 'in the system').

If you were already belaying from your tie-in knot, then you just need to find a position that's comfortable. Don't be afraid of belaying a long way from your anchors - I have often set-up an almost-hanging belay below the lip (or at least overlooking the edge) of a single pitch crag, both to help reduce drag and also allow me to see the second. 

Probably a stupid question, but just in case...

You are pulling up all the slack before putting partner on belay?  I've seen people pull 50m rope through the device before the partner set off...

And are you are taking in correctly?  As in reaching down with one hand and pulling up slack on the climber side, then using the hand on the control side to pull that slack through your device?

I ask, because keeping both hands on the control side and pulling it through the device from that side is easy harder than feeding it in and out of the device from each side.

Probably not the issues, but you did say you were new!

If possible I always use guide mode on uk trad. I have a DMM Pivot which makes very easy to set up. Fab bit of kit

If using guide mode make sure the rope to your second is not running near horizontal as it might if the anchor is low and the rope is then running over the edge.

Guide mode works by the rope to the second pressing down and locking the dead rope and to do this it needs to be close to vertical

That's what I was thinking, unless you find a pair of cracks, zig zag the rope, or place a friend under a bulge and no quickdraw 🤣

Was just checking!