UKC

For groups visiting Pabbay and Mingulay just a few things to keep in mind when they are on the islands , as the numbers of climbers is growing we are seeing pressure on the camping areas especially on Pabbay .

Please on Pabbay be aware there are birds called Storm Petrels nesting , they come in at night so are not obvious . They nest in areas around the top of the crags so please be careful when putting in gear and don't move boulders or stones around .

For latrines the advice is use  the inter tidal zone  .

For urinating please try and use the beach as much as possible , urinating around the camp site changes the nutrient levels in the ground and can lead to domination of certain species such as nettle and butterbur.

Please use biodegradable nature friendly products for pot washing and personal hygiene, fairy liquid type products should definitely not be put into the stream or sea .

In the camping area don’t pour hot cooking water direct onto the grass as it kills off the grass and flowers , also try and avoid putting hot pans direct on to the ground as it leaves marks and kills the grass .

Please avoid making cairns or other markers on the island , not all archaeological sites are obvious .

Please if visiting feel free to contact me the National Trust ranger - [email protected]

I know it’s not really in keeping with the UK ethic, but would a, crowd funded, pit toilet not be an obvious solution?

Like say there is in the Cirque of the Unclimbables. 

That would disturb the archeology. 

This will probably be an unpopular idea and I admit it's not very in line with normal UK accessibility ethics, but here goes anyway.

I think there should be some sort of permit system for climbers (and other visitors) visiting the islands.

They're a special place for lots of different reasons and for lots of different user groups. One of the things that makes them special is the relative lack of people. My impression* is that there are more and more climbers visiting the islands. In some ways that's great, because more people get to experience an amazing place, but it does (for me at least) lessen the experience for other visitors, including other climbers.

Obviously I've been before, so this is very much me saying to others who haven't been that they shouldn't be allowed quite the experience that I had.

*Based on talking to other climbers and my experience over three visits over the last 10 years which I admit may not be reflective of the overall picture.

We could always cap visits at 3 per person, applied restrospectively. 

I'd sign up to that.

Obviously it's easy for me to say that in the knowledge that it's incredibly unlikely to happen but I do genuinely think I would be ok with it.

Or people could just try not to all go in May and spread it out over the season? Apparently April is good as well, and the boats are running by then. I’ve been to Mingulay 4 times, all in July and August and never shared the island with another team.

Only got midged off once, thanks to a weak easterly wind. 

Hi Ben,

Thanks for posting.

Is there any up to date advice on nesting birds? Which crags/routes are best avoided? And until when? 

I'd agree re: compostable loo. The beach was like playing minesweeper. Jobbies every second hole you dug.

The other advice I'd add is stick to the paths where possible, especially in ground-nesting season.

Alex

Well, previous historical jobbies for one. Some from the golden age of Scottish sea cliff climbing. Dietary analysis of what those pioneers ate whilst putting up those routes would offer fascinating insights into that era. 

More seriously the islands are incredibly rich in history, and much of it well preserved. This was a good account:

https://www.buthbharraigh.co.uk/product-page/mingulay-an-island-and-its-peo... 

Perhaps the better solution would be to ask groups to bring portable toilet kits and 'Pack it Out'? The Americans do so quite happily. 

You really want some details , don't you.

Digging a pit toilet, by necessity, disturbs the soil and so the archaeology. On both Pabaigh and Miughlaigh the camping sites are within Scheduled Monument areas.

Further, there are multiple sites of historic interest listed on the Canmore database.

Best not to dig large latrine pits. Maybe some type of contained composting toilet structure would work, but it would need to be a seasonal structure and obviously need funding.

Edit; I think Alex is on to one solution.

Nice one Ben!

It’s been a while since I bothered but a few times on here I ve expressed my disgust that it seems to be the ukc view that packing out your sh1t when wild camping is not necessary. It is . Burying sh1t in wild places isnot sustainable anymore and hasn’t been for sone time  . Carrying it out is not difficult to organise . Three of us camped out near dale  head a couple of weeks ago  for one night . Each shit was wrapped in two dog poo bags and these were put in a sainsburies bag which then went into the rubbish bag . It then all went home to out wheelie bin. It’s not hard . A week on Pabbay ? Four people ? A 40 cm length of drain pipe with a stop end and screw end . Lots of dog poo bags . In America they are called poop tubes . If you think that won’t be big enough cos you take big poos then make it 50cm long. Ben , I think you should encourage visitors to Pabbay to carry out all their sh1t and take it home . Why am I bothering to write this ? I live in the lakes and climb , walk , bike ski and occasionally “ wild “ camp . The number of people now doing likewise is rising ( it feels like it’s exponentially but I bet it not quiet there yet ) . The idea that  burying human shit is acceptable needs to end . 

I don't disagree if you're in the mountains, but surely in this case shitting in the sea is a more sustainable solution?

Early April would've been amazing this year!

 Not really. The sea shore, especially rock pools etc where shit would get washed into between low and high water is a particularly sensitive environment. Also when everyone “goes” in the morning not a pleasant experience to have other people’s turds sloshing around your feet

What's the current "facilities" on the islands? Or, what's currently being done by most people? Might be a better way to phrase the question, i'v never been. 

Tbh, I find it a bit odd to say something about where people should and shouldn't piss, but nothing at all about taking a shit.

Tbh I'd support that I think. We went a couple of years ago in a team of 12 and had the place to ourselves, it really made the trip. The boatman said they had picked up 50 odd climbers a couple of days before, I don't think I'd have enjoyed it nearly as much had the campsite been full like that. Plus the obvious environmental benefits of keeping numbers down.

It's hidden by delicate wording:
For latrines the advice is use  the inter tidal zone

 By latrines it means digging a hole in the sand and filling in it after

Thanks. I'd completely missed that. 

Henceforth to be known as the interturdal zone

Is there a warden on Mingulay? I know there isn’t one on Pabbay

I just wonder how it would work, particularly with organising boats. If you were to have a maximum number allowed at any one time, one boatman could book all that up when really it should not be a monopoly business.

That's great to know.

I think that some kind of permit system would actually help spread people out. I'd love to go when other people won't be there, but at the moment I've no way of knowing when other groups will be there.

I've been three times, there was a warden there once. Living in the NTS building.

On one of those trips there was also a warden with some kind of archaeological restoration group camping on Pabbay.

I was privileged to enjoy a similar climbing trip to Pabbay a few years ago when our group of around a dozen were the only visitors. 50 sounds a nightmare. It’s worth mentioning that the area is also popular with us sea kayakers, and becoming more so,  often with an overnight camp on Mingulay or Pabbay which could put more pressure on limited space. With increasing popularity I fear that at the very least a more rigorous policy on individual waste management and self containment may be necessary.

An information-only system would be slightly easier to manage. Say for example the NTS requested that all climbers and other visitors 'booked' (announced their presence for however many nights) on the NTS Barra Isles website booking service.

Thousands of houses on the islands have septic tanks draining straight to the sea, so a few dozen extra turds will make no difference. 

And before anyone points out how septic tanks work, please remember that most of the existing tanks are concrete boxes that don't work like modern tanks, and overflow liquid waste goes straight into the sea. Sort that out first.

I don’t think we need to make cleaning up our impact as climbers conditional on locals also improving their septic tanks? Both are improvements independent of the other.

After living in the US for a couple of years, I’ve learned not to be afraid of pooing in a bag and packing it out. Whilst I love a wild poo, having 30+ people per day (on a busy week) using the beach as a toilet is a lot of poo in a very small area and whether regulated by the NT or not I think we should aspire to packing out poo from the islands in future. 

Do concrete septic tanks not work?

I assumed they did.

Depends on the design. A lot of old concrete septic tanks are more accurately described as, a tank. 

I never said it was conditional.

You may carry out your poo, but what do you do with it then? Put it in a bin for landfill? How is that better? If you dig it out of the bag and flush it down the loo, fair enough.

They do, however.....

1. The water/waste companies push people to empty them every year or two which is too often.

2. People often use unsuitable products to clean their loos.

3. Homes are extended for large families, self catering groups etc, and the tanks originally designed for 4 people struggle to cope.

Put it in the bin where it goes for incineration producing electricity and district heating

Thanks for the reply.

30+ shits (on a busy day) is nothing in the scheme of things. Take yachts/pleasure boats etc. Hundreds and hundreds each day in the Minch, all pumping out poo. No bags of take home poo for the yachties.  Macerated, pumped, forgotten about.

The real problem is that we, as climbers think we have a right to visit these special places  to climb, to stay, to eat and to shit. We don't. Take a look at Google maps and zoom in on Pabbay, satellite view. The beach is covered with hundreds of seals. Every time we (well, you, I've never been)  visit this amazing island the seals are scared off. Personally that is more disturbing to me than a few shits.

If that bin is the first one encountered on Harris or Skye after returning then I assure you the waste is buried, not incinerated. Fair play if you take your shit back down south in your car.

Do you unpack your waste and put it in your campervan loo? Well done if you do. As long as its a compostable loo that's a great solution.

I hope the seals bury their jobbies.

Hopefully not full of micro plastics.

I don't know about Pabbay specifically, but most places that grey seals gather en masse by the waterline on beaches like that it's a seasonal thing - after they've pupped over the late Autumn and Winter, they do that during their annual moult at the end of Winter or early Spring.  (Seeing them hauled out on the beach in huge numbers is one of the more interesting things to do in Norfolk in February.)

The rest of the year a few of them might haul out on the beach (and might be deterred by the presence of humans) but they'll be much more widely spread out and most will be on rocks elsewhere around the islands, closer to their various feeding grounds.

My guess is that that amazing aerial photo on the Google map was taken during the seals' moulting season.  (Which happily does not coincide with the climbers digging holes on the beach and leaving their deposits season.)

Thanks for your reply . Maybe the tide is turning . Pun intended . A very recent article on here was still talking about burying shit . I can’t remember if I bothered to challenge it . It been quiet a few years since I see kayaked but for several years we had a trip to Scotland thd first week in may and only had one of about 10 trips that got didn’t give us near perfect weather . All of these trips involved camping on islands and or isolated bits of the coast .  We were often accompanied by an old sea dog / environmentalist ( he wouldn’t have called himself that )who had been there / done  that , I can’t imagine how he would have reacted to the idea that “100 s “ of climbers were shitting on the beach.  Imagine I’d there were surfing on Pabbay and amongst the surfing community the craic was “ oh don’t go to that beach , that’s where the climbers all take a shit . 

Why would you bury your shit on the beach? Swim out 100m, do it there, swim back. If your diet's ok it sinks to the bottom and the fish get a snack.

Sea kayakers we’re going there before climbers, the increasing popularity with climbers has been putting pressure on the limited space.

It was obvious in the late nineties when Mingulay was being bigged up by the FA’s that the environment and experience would ultimately be degraded by numbers. Ironically at least some of the FAs deliberately didn’t record some ascents on the smaller Bishop Isles because they wanted them to stay unspoilt, in one case because they liked taking family holidays there without anyone else.

For a bit of perspective, for those that don’t know, whilst Mingulay and Pabbay are uninhabited now they didn’t used to be and formerly had populations of up 150 and 300 people respectively.

Thanks Ben for the pointers on reducing impact.

So how did they manage their poo? 

Good question. Don’t know, but I bet it didn’t involve shipping it out to the mainland in poop tubes. 

Thanks for the feed back on this , its very helpful for me to read these comments .

In reply to a few of the comments .

I agree that on Mingulay we should provide a compost toilet , this would be possible to build near the school building  which is out of the scheduled monument.  My question is if the trust provides the money to make this would people feel ok to pay a small amount to use it  ?

Regrading sea birds , on Mingulay we will talk with all groups on arrival and give info on areas to avoid , the guide book does say on climbs that are best avoided in breeding season ( best avoided in my eyes is defiantly avoid ) . I think there is a conversation to be had with boat operators about more trips in April which can be a great month and the birds are not on the cliffs yet . Later in the season from  August and after can also be great but more swell around so not so easy to get down to the islands. 

For Pabbay there are few birds on the cliffs but the impacts around the campsite are a concern, there are some rare species in the Machair  , and lots of urine on the grass area changes nutrient levels this  can lead to certain species dominating such as nettle or Butterbur .  

I think the free  permit idea suggested is a interesting idea ,it would help me get information across to groups coming and potentially avoid  multiple large groups being on island at the same time, which is  not ideal for the island or climbers .  I know the boat operators try to avoid it  but occasionally it happens ,  and i think this   is a ongoing conversation that i really appreciate feedback and suggestions  on .  

Many thanks.

My feeling is that part of the attraction of being there is to step out of the modern world and live in a place for a few days where money is not a thing.  So I'm not sure about a 'pay as you go' scheme if you see what I mean.  Obviously something like an honesty box only works anyway if people are actually bringing some cash with them.  (I guess the modern equivalent of an honesty box would be a QR code that people can take a photo of with their phone/camera and use to make a donation online.)

Also if people got the impression that they're being told that they have to pay to use a compost toilet, rather than being asked for a voluntary contribution towards its upkeep, I wonder if that might be more likely to lead to the odd awkward git refusing to either chip in towards it or use it.

If you're on good terms with the boat operators, might they be willing to collect a voluntary surcharge on the boat fare to support the upkeep and pass it on?  (I feel you'd get better results if it were something that those who object choose to opt out of, rather than something that those who are willing need to actively opt in to.)

I'd be very happy to chip in a few quid to a 'crowdfund' towards building that composting loo btw, and I'm certain I won't be the only one.

That's great that the compost toilet idea has been received favourably, despite archaeological worrying. 

Reading about the 19th century eskimos (Inuit), it seems that one attraction of keeping dogs was that they'd go and 'clean up' the shit left around the camp by humans. Could be an alternative way of dealing with the problem?  

Trouble is, the dogs might just "clean up" the ground nesting birds. 

The helpful guys at Online Sea kayaking posted this useful video on toileting in remote and sensitive places

https://youtu.be/fIS5kkmFs_U?si=RwPBKBk4jTXMSClY