UKC

Hi, 

I want to support my nephew through his Bronze DoFE, which he will be eligible to begin through his school next year. He has entirely driven this interest, and I feel very privileged to be able to support it. He lives with his mum, who, it is fair to say, is by no means the outdoors type, so I feel a degree of responsibility here not to put him off or dictate his experience. 

I've looked at the website https://www.dofe.org/do/parents/ but what I am asking for is tips from those of you who have supported a young person on how to do so without overwhelming them with your knowledge/views/experiences. I am trying to be mindful that what might be obvious/comfortable for me may not be so for him. 

My nephew has car-camped with my wife and me before, but is keen to do a backpacking trip with just him and me to begin preparing for that aspect of the DoFE. We are going to decide where to go together. Dartmoor is close by, but I think that a campsite with facilities would be preferable. 

I thought that a good way of structuring this would be to talk about where we want to go together, look at the relevant maps, talk about route choices, and talk about kit, etc. Hopefully, without me being too lightweight dogmatic about it all, and remembering that Trangias are still on the DoFE kit list. 

Of course, the camping and walking element is only one part of the DoFE - if anyone has any tips to add to what is on the website https://www.dofe.org/do/howtohelp/ then it would be much appreciated. 

Having worked through the various expedition levels with a number of groups over the years, there are a few things that you could do to make his expedition more enjoyable that he might not otherwise get much support with; looking after his feet well (particularly if he progresses onto silver or gold later - or to expedition on his own) and starting with well fitting and previously broken in footwear and decent socks will help enormously. Choosing/ cooking good, nourishing (and even enjoyable) meals - bland and boring noodles might weigh nothing but get him to experiment beforehand to explore other more enticing options that are also light enough to carry. Knowing how/ when to layer up/ down or put on/ take off waterproofs is something most of us do intuitively - but it's not unusual to see D of E groups wearing waterproofs all day long even when the weather conditions don't dictate that.  Finally deciding what kit to take/ not to take and how to pack this in his rucksack (keeping the contents dry!) - we've all seen groups struggling through the more popular areas carrying massive badly packed rucksacks with stuff dangling on the outside. If he can borrow any lighter-weight kit from you or others then his school shouldn't have a problem with that - Trangias are still standard on most D of E (usually with gas conversions) - tents if they're provided could be almost anything so there are some easy gains to be made if better/ lighter kit can be purloined!

Hope that helps - and you have some fun helping him out.

He'll need to be able to look after himself doing the physical activity (walking by the look of things) for the given time period and camping self sufficiently within the equipment carried by the group. The following done well, along with experience, will set him up for doing gold if he wants to in future:

Stuff which will benefit him: 

Load distribution within a bag (pack bags together)

Layering (just talk him through your rationale while out)

Navigation - OS has good resources for this IIRC

Camp discipline/ tidiness - talk through as you do stuff 

Physical self care, feet, minor first aid etc etc

Camping cooking and an understanding of good foods to support physical activity (i.e. not just sugar).

Thank you so much Mick and Spenser. Lots in there to think about and all incredibly helpful. Lots that can be put into practice before our first backpacking trip together as well. Much appreciated 

My son is also this age and to support him I'm volunteering with my local village DoE group so looking for tips here too

He's been camping with Scouts and with me by car and walking between Youth Hostels many times but the one that was most similar to DoE was when we walked along Hadrian's wall, carrying our tent and kit. We went by train & bus, only camped one night in order to minimise how much we carried (other nights in b&b), stayed in camp site, got totally soaked and had to wear our wet clothes while walking. We took fresh filled pasta for meals, although I forgot to check they were vegetarian so I mainly ate ice creams. He always talks about this trip.

We are off to the Isle of Man for a few nights camping this summer as the next stage up...

I'm recently retired from 20 yrs of working mostly with DofE Students.

Navigation, the basics, Orientate the map, features. Do you have any local Permenent Orienteering courses near you? Search for POC there are many about from child easy to more advanced.

Food, easy to prepare, easy to eat, easy to clean. Trangia with a gas conversion is the most popular stove for DofE. 

Clothing, layering. "Be bold, start cold."

Campcraft, be neat and tidy. If possible find out what type of tents that he will be using and then, if possible practice putting one up. Keep everything dry, rubble sacks are sufficient for a one night DofE exped.

Making sensible decisions in the countryside. I find that the phrase "Risk Assessment" put people off. Get him to verbalise his thinking. "Show me your working" Work through a few scenarios, What would you do if something happened here? The school will have its own process, trackers, phones, send two people down the hill etc.

The Expedition is a Team event. Everyone needs to participate but often there are passengers that will let the others do all of the work. Could you encourage a friend to join him with you?

It's great that you are thinking about this in advance. There are Birthdays and Christmas to come where he can focus his funds/wish list towards kit. Sleeping bags and footwear are, IMO, the most important as you will either be in one or the other.

If anyone is struggling to resource kit for the teenagers and they are on benefits then look at Kitsquad.co.uk. We recieve donated outdoor gear and then donate that forward to those in poverty to get them out on the hill. AND if you have any surplus kit that is looking for a home then please can yousend it to us? We are near Shrewsbury.

Have Fun.

Robin

My experience (limited) of school D of E with my scout group is not very positive. We needed them to have done the D of E to also complete their chief scout awards, and the school support was lacking. I don't see how their approach of running it with cohorts by year fits with the ethos, it also leaves people behind when the bronze expedition they missed one year clashed with GCSE the next.

Young people have min 11 years (from Sept of Year 9 to their 25th b'day) to do 3 awards, which themselves take only 2 years minimum to complete. The awards are a personal challenge and should fit the young person.

**END OF RANT**

In terms of supporting them, for expedition the more training they have on walking for 3 - 6 hours a day with overnight kit, the more experience of feeding and cooking for themselves, the more they'll enjoy the expedition.

I think the hardest part of D of E for a young person is setting themselves the goals for V/S/P/E, this is not something that comes easily at 14. They will have a D of E leader who should support them, but if you can also guide them then they will get the most value from the award. Their goals should push them just enough to make it achievable but also make them proud of the efforts. The should look back after each level and feel more empowered by succeeding, rather than feeling they just crossed a finishing line.

Final thought - doing D of E with a different organisation to school might be more rewarding. In my Explorer Scout group we have teams doing expedition on foot, by bike and by canoe. We have one scout who wants to do Silver on horseback. Sailing, kayak, and paddleboard are other options.

On the subject of lightweight - schools are sometimes awful about kit. I'm in favour of lightweight tents - some of ours want to bivvy, lightweight cooking pots and gas burners.

Last assessor I spoke to said the number one thing they check on expedition - "are you having fun".

There are good Scout groups. There are bad Scout groups.

There are good school groups. There are bad school groups.

Let's not get into a 'Scouts/AAPs are better than schools' argument.

In reply to the OP:

A good group should be preparing participants properly, covering all the aspects discussed excellently above. You might support them by asking how this training is going. If you want them to develop a lifelong enjoyment of the outdoors, then ensuring it is not a suffer-fest is good: comfortable & reasonable weight pack, carrying only what is needed, blister-free footwear, tasty food & a good night's sleep (though that is often limited by the participants themselves...).

On the first expedition I helped supervise, we met the group as they emerged through a gap in a hedge at the end of their expedition, to have one of the girls say "I don't want it to end; I want to do it all over again". That's what I hope to achieve with all my participants.

Bronze is only two days, one night. They don't even have to camp these days (can use basic bunkhouses).

The other three Sections of the Award are a much longer commitment, so be sure you encourage those, too.

The thing I have seen a lot over the years is that a heavy bag really drains morale. If you have the means to source lightweight kit for him and a light but well fitting bag, he will definitely enjoy it more. At bronze level, they are still pretty small.

It really irks me that we continue to insist on sending kids out with nonsense like trangias. Why don't you or I use a tangia? Because it's heavy, bulky and difficult to cook well on. Well for kids it's worse!

Also help him to really understand how to make the rucksack fit comfortably so it doesn't rub or strain him anywhere. 

If you are looking at navigation, don't go too in-depth at this level. He will only really need to identify handrail features and junctions and have an idea how how to judge how far he has walked. Focus on getting the basics really solid. 

As others have said, keep it fun 😊 

Thank you all very much for the brilliant advice. Keeping it as lightweight as possible is something to aim for. I remember the pain of yomping around with an external frame rucksack, laden with tins of baked beans and my dad's ridge tent complete with metal poles.

I did my bronze in the mid 80s and even then we camped outside a bunkhouse.

We did however have many a weekend out on the Dava Moor preparing for the event.

How topical - My daughter is doing her Bronze practice hike/camp this afternoon/tomorrow. Officially I think DofE have said that you don't need a Bronze practice anymore but doing it for real is probably the best way of them learning. Like you I wanted to make sure she was prepared properly so we have been using a map and compass locally, learning about features and what contours actually look like on the ground.

You will know good kit from bad and have plenty of time to assist with getting all the gear together without breaking the bank, ebay and FB Marketplace mean here is so much more 2nd hand kit around nowadays. I had a horrible time on expeditions in Scouts with cheap heavy kit so did not want her to suffer and be put off the outdoors. As such I made sure of the following:

- Rucksack: I had a cheap Argos job with a waistbelt that would not do up tight enough to take the weight on my hips. She has a quality Lowe Alpine Skyline 55 ND which I found on ebay for £20, it is a women specific design too.

- Boots: gone are the days of breaking in a pair of heavy leather boots for months. She has a pair of fabric boots from Regatta or Mountain Warehouse or similar. There are always some there RRP £50 going for £30. She has worn them around a bit and says they are her comfiest shoes! She has some good socks to go with them too.

- Sleeping Bag - got her a lightweight ME one on sale.

- Waterproofs - help find real breathable ones.

- Underwear: I suffered the 1980's fashion of baggy cotton boxers. They got wet and chaffed terribly so I picked up 2 pairs of Lowe Alpine dryflo briefs for her in a sale.

- Food: show him how a Pot Noodle pot will crack when you sit on your rucksack but that it can still be be made in a mug or bowl so long as you know how much water to add. 

Depending on your interests you may also be able to assist him with 'The Sport', 'The New Skill' and 'The Volunteering'. As his Uncle you will probably be more valued than Mum so enjoy your time with him.

Oh yeah, this too:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/understanding_ticks_and_lyme_disease-...

I also think a hard part is the volunteering and the new skill so worth keeping an eye out for local opportunities. My son is going to umpire some sports matches and they need volunteers to do reading to younger children at our local library. He's already volunteering with the litter picking team in the village for Scouts so he's been trying to find some other options. 

Maybe try parkrun for volunteering. Saturday morning or sunday at Junior parkrun. The Barcode scanning task is now on Smartphones as is the timekeeping. I've been at one parkrun where one teenager took on the role of RD (with support) at their "graduation" at the end of the 12 weeks.

Gah, typed a long response which my phone just ate : ( trying again on a laptop.

My eldest did his Practice Bronze weekend just gone.  The kitlist was crazy, even stripped to the bare minimum with a 2 kilo tent his pack was heavy for a little blighter who is only 42 kilos himself.  So use your experience to help them make judgements about what they can afford to leave out.  I feel really bad for families who don't have access to someone with experience and end up spending £££ on Lifesystems stuff that they don't really need which then turns the youngster's pack into an enormous boulder - full set of titanium eating equipment only £60 or you can carry a plastic spoon and eat your Wayfarer Sausage and Beans out of the packet?

When I asked him and his friend in the car on the way home what was the thing they didn't pack which they wish they had the answers were "Camp shoes" (I stripped these out to lose weight as at that point anything totally non essential got jettisoned) and "Frozen Lucozade" this was a good shout given the heat last weekend!  The answers to the thing you wish you hadn't packed which you did was "Waterproofs" and "Towel".  I consider waterproofs fundamental so too bad, you are carrying them!  No towel for mine, you can use your socks as a towel if you somehow end up washing.

I for sure would do a practice expedition to Dartmoor they can then get experience with camp routine with some support which will reduce fear of the unknown if they have not done it before, and they can get experience walking with a light pack while you carry most of the kit.  Not to mention it would hopefully be a great experience for you to share.  Doing it outside of a campsite would be an adventure!

Away from the expedition the thing we've struggled with most is the organisation and admin of the other bits, the systems seem to heavily rely on reading and actioning emails which is something that youngsters seem to struggle with (mine did at least).  It's understandable but it's the kind of life skill which is really valuable.  The amount of times I'd ask a question the answer to which I knew was in an email but the response I got was "I'll Whatsapp my friends and ask them"...*sigh*.  I still have no real feel for how the assessment system gets kicked into life even though I've filled out a few in my time, but again the onus is on the youngster to take responsibility for it so I have to let it play out to an extent.

Lastly for the volunteering - mine is ticking this as a Young Leader in Scouts.  He's actually getting more out of this I think than he is from the section activities in his Scout Group, it's really pleasing to see him come full circle so if you have a Scout Group near you that could do with a hand get in touch, this took a suprisingly long time to line up so no harm in making contact now.

Good luck and well done for helping out, all in all it's a really good scheme, character building in the best sense of the phrase.

Presumably they're used as they're meant to be relatively safe?

(Bronze is only one night out so I would just let them get on with it and avoid too much helicopter parenting!)

The meths ones are lethal! We have to very very carefully manage trangia use. There was a case a while back where a girl set herself on fire with one 

https://www.shponline.co.uk/lifting-and-handling/teenager-set-on-fire-while...

Some now have gas conversions, but that is no safer than any other gas stove. I think they use them because they are sturdy. I agree that sturdy and long lasting is good, but not at the expense of kids actually getting a good experience. 

That was 5 litres of meths!!

From the Scout website -

"Methylated spirit burning stoves (such as Trangia) are a very good stove especially for the young or inexperienced camper or backpacker. It is one of the most stable and safe stoves to use. "

It would be interesting to see how much the recommended kit lists weigh for the three awards. Groups I frequently come across seem uncomfortably loaded up. I do appreciate that lightweight gear gets progressively more expensive.

Spare batteries for one night!!

Knife, fork and spoon set!

Nightwear!

Boots! No mention of approach shoes.

Etc.

I think your challenge now is probably filtering out what not to say...

I suspect the young person will have a head full of ideas, advice, distractions, rules and that's without adding on the group that they're in. 

You probably have enormous experience on how to do it all, and you certainly have a lot more commentary from this thread, but if you tell them twelve things, which three will stick ? And will that be the three things that your young person will find helpful in the group they're part of ? 

Groups need a couple of folk who can navigate, one to check the other/take over. More is nice but let's not be silly about this ! Hopefully there will be someone with some facilitation skills for when the navs are struggling to decide, and perhaps the same person has some humour/decrease tension/let's get on with it skills. And perhaps someone else who just quietly tries to do a bit extra on the carrying or camping or cooking. And, doubtless, a passenger or two. I like to think of them as contributing a "service and kindness" element for the higher achievers - "Jeez, we've got to get this drongo through, won't go with him on Silver..." 

What role is your neph likely to play/play best ? Sure, sounds like you'll be able to set him up to be adequate at all of it, but no DofE group works on the basis on one superhero carrying the others. 

Other than that: show don't tell. Bag and foot comfort. Strong attention to self-care whether that's hydration, temperature control, basic hygiene, feeding. Navigational skills sufficient to know if someone else is making a mess of it and social skills sufficient to intervene/prevent disaster. 

The Gold DoFE presentations last year drew two conclusions: 1) Always go in a mixed group, they work so much better than single-sex and 2) You've GOT TO understand contour lines. That's the young people themselves, not my comment. 

Good luck. My son said it was one of the best things he's ever done. This year, he's with a pretty shoddy group. My main hope for the groups I see and work with is that it doesn't actually put folks off, even the ones whose parents pushed them too hard into it. 

Y

Does he have a mate he's doing it with?  Kids will do more with other kids around.  If so support both.

Here's a game or two to help teaching nav (tested with a scout group many times).

Food hunt:  Requires you to pre setup, as its food on the day and place food wherever possible out of reach of animals.  Choose an area with a varied 'mini' landscapes and plenty of elements in the landscape to nav by (bridges, churches, slopes, lakes etc.)  Hide the food.  Give them either a grid ref or clues (or both).  They carry the cooker, find food, eat out.  Dried food is better (pasta,  noodles, cuppa soup for flavouring sauces, cooked sausage/chorizo in sealed packets)

Gold rush: I did this as a night nav game.  Get a big cheap bag of toffees wrapped in gold.  You can set-up the day before just don't hide anything on the ground.  With scouts I did teams with clues.  The better teams got more gold.  You can do it as an orienteering type exercise with rewards.  Again a mini landscape with paths and nav points is ideal.

Concentrate on reading the landscape - especially U shaped contours (is it a valley or a ridge, hmm what does that blue line represent?)  - field boundaries, roads and buildings.  Don't get too mixed up with compass bearings and map co-ordinates.

Finally to agree with a point above, adjusting the rucksack to sit on the back/hips properly is one thing often missed, and when assessing I saw kids with terrible load distribution and posture regularly.

Also, go for one night bivvies on a remote beach, he (and his mate?) cook the food.  Teach being responsible in the landscape; close gates, leave no litter etc. In good weather just a tarp and sleeping bag is great fun for youngsters.

One of the best things about doing DofE is memories and experiences of doing it with your mates.  Even if they get lost and its a total cock up.  If you are going for a practice, get him to bring a mate along and keep your distance at times, so they can learn as they mess up.  It won't be serious mess ups as you'll be nearby to guide them, but there's nowt like experiential learning.

All stoves have risks. You just need to put appropriate measures in place, and teach safe practice.

Leaking gas stoves create fireballs. Leaking gas canisters asphyxiate, or cause explosion when lit. Or be deliberately inhaled... Mess up the connection, and have gas leak, and it can cling to your arm and then ignite when you light the stove.

Trangias are stable and wind resistant. One of the biggest DofE risks is a pan of boiling water. Canister-top gas burners are quite unstable.

As I said, all stoves have risks.

This is really valuable. Thank you 

Thank you all for your advice. Lots of fantastic bits in there. The idea of only three things being taken on board for every 12 said is very interesting and certainly something to take on board. The show rather than tell element is great too. The email admin was not something I had thought about and is something to be very mindful of.

Thanks again all.

I had a blast supporting my daughter through DofE. She wasn't particularly into sport, so actually chose walking as her physical section, so got in loads of practice before the expedition as we went out every weekend, gradually building up distance and difficulty, culminating in completing a 20 mile challenge walk together (Welsh 3 peaks trial round Abergaveny). She chose cooking for her skill, again we did that together at home, meant I got dinner made for me once week, and she became confident in the kitchen, which stood her in good stead when she left home to do an Outdoor Education Instructor Apprenticeship. She still works in the outdoors and is currently walking the Cape Wrath Trail so it made an impact!

Isn't the whole point of the DoE expeditions to give people a proper appreciation for decent equipment? The smug satisfaction that I never have to use a Trangia again is equivalent to at least two brews' worth of warmth on a chilly night in the tent now

And the suggestions in the linked article for how the leaders should have managed the Trangias are all standard things for competent leaders to implement (small bottles of meths with valves on, stoves to fuel not fuel to stoves). They're not outlandish, impractical or unusual steps.

Just remember he will have way more experience than any other of his team members.  I would not burden him with your expectations/ concerns . 
 

that was my experience with 2 daughters . Just let them get on with it on their own. That is the purpose of it.let them make mistakes and just stand back. 

Get him to tell you what he's expected to do, then get him to tell you how he'll do it, then help him with the gaps or suggestions.  Example - spare batteries for the torch. Ask him why he thinks they're needed (the answer is 'in case your torch gets turned on in your bag'). Once he knows why they're needed, ask him if he thinks everyone needs spare batteries (answer - no), so how can they as a group save weight on everyone carrying spare batteries. Same goes for toothpaste - do they all need a tube? Indeed, do they need to brush teeth at all.

By making him think of the whys and wherefores he will gain a far better understanding.  Same goes for navigation.  As a scout leader I'm always trying top impress upon them that they need to learn to navigate because being lost on the moors is no fun at all.  Luckily I have a great example from a couple of years ago when one group got lost in the New Forest and ended up having a helicopter out looking for them 🙄