UKC

I went climbing recently with a friend to do some dws. Was a good evening, calm seas, warm etc. Did some routes then tried a steep roof. Was upside down for a good 45 seconds or so trying pretty hard on a couple of moves then cut loose and swung round and fell a bit awkwardly front first into the water, although nothing too dramatic. I came up and made a joke to my friend about him filming it so he obviously thought all was ok. He then started to pack a couple of bits away and carried on filming for a few seconds without realising. 

I then took a couple of strokes and blacked out. At some point shortly after after (probably only a few seconds) I inhaled sea water and came to completely disoriented having no idea where I was or why I was in water. Was scary. I managed to swim to the side and pulled myself together and we climbed out. 

Thought worth sharing. Although rare, it's something to think about it terms of routes chosen and how many people to climb with.  I don't think my friend could have got me out of there if I hadn't regained consciousness and vice versa if something had happened to him. Worth thinking whether to climb as a 3 so someone can go for help. 

I think I blacked out because I'd been pulling pretty hard for a while basically upside down, then spun around and hit the sea, which although warm, is British warm. Probably wasn't breathing enough whilst trying the moves. Essentially not enough oxygen and some relevant stuff here https://www.rlss.org.uk/shallow-water-blackout-hyperventilation-and-breath-...

Have got it on film including moment I pass out if anyone thinks that'll help, but probably unnecessary.

Ollie

In reply to ollie1:

Thanks for posting, a good cautionary tale. 

The sea is dangerous and I personally treat it with great respect 

Glad you're OK

In reply to ollie1:

Water is dangerous for sure. Food for thought. BTW your photo of pressure drop is an absolute cracker of a picture!

In reply to ollie1: sudden immersion in cold water can cause a vagal response which drops heart rate and blood pressure. I wonder if this is exacerbated by already being in metabolic deficit from the exertion of climbing hard? Be interesting to know if other climbers have experienced similar…..thanks for sharing.

In reply to Tom the tall:

This.  

The sea is a lot colder than one might think from swimming on a nice day.  There’s often a substantially warmer surface layer when the sun is out so if you only normally go for a swim on a sunny day you’ll not realise this.  The sea also warms up a lot more slowly than the land and doesn’t peak for some time yet - although the surface sea temperature anomaly is high this year…

On a DWS fall you’re going to smash right through that surface layer into cold water response territory.  I do a lot of cold water swimming in winter without neoprene and it can see my heart rate go well lower than my normal resting heart rate.

Climbing hard/sustained will also make you hotter, making the sudden temperature change that triggers the cold water adaptions more aggressive I think.

Probably a good idea to acclimatise to local sea temperatures for DWS here, being aware that if the tide is coming in over a hot beach it’s not representative.  

In reply to ollie1:

Glad you lived!  Sounds terrifying.  Watch out for flashback and deal with them if it happens.

In reply to Tom the tall:

I was tied in at the very bottom of Castell Helen, sea level, years ago. My friend was tying in to a belay some way above. I looked left and saw a huge wave above my head height coming at me along the cliff. It went right over me. Had I not been tied in I would've been washed off for sure. I was then totally soaked of course, to my friend's great amusement 

In reply to ollie1:

That's so scary, thanks for sharing. Hope you're ok.

Good reminder to keep watching mates while they exit. After watching someone climb, once they've fallen in we normally stop watching and start doing other bits, but it's when they're probably at most risk.

Totally agree with what you say about ability to actually help someone who is unconscious (or seriously injured) in the water, i think it would often be near impossible unless you can get out at a beach (like Lulworth). Sometimes we set up a grigri in alpine mode, with a harness or rope loop attached to the end, which you can chuck into the sea if someone gets injured - and then you can assist them getting out by hauling them. only do this when it's wavy though, and would obviously be useless if just two of you and someone was unconscious. 

DWS is all fine and seems really safe until it goes wrong, then i think it can go really wrong very quickly. Good to hear close calls and understand accidents to understand DWS risks i think, so thanks for sharing. 

In reply to ollie1:

Good post, Ollie and glad you're OK.

It's a very valid point you're making, and one I  , and others, have tried to hammer home for over 30 years. DWS is relatively safe when done correctly, but just like anything, it can go wrong, so I always have a sea-level spotter (Safety) with me to get me out of the water if anything goes wrong. I also have a flotation device and rope, as well as an escape plan in place. 

One example I can think of was at Conner Cove, watching a friend try Freeborn Man. I was at the half-high ledge on the right, watching them go for a move. Instead of going for the move and falling naturally,  they artificially bailed, ejecting themselves backwards off the wall, resulting in a flip backwards,  landing on there back. I knew what was going to happen before they even hit the water, so I jumped in at the same time they flipped and was with them within seconds, grabbed them and got them to the side. Sitting on my knee in the water gave them time to recover from being badly winded, and then two others came down to assist with the evac. Luckily, there was only a big bruise and some confidence knocked, leaving them a bit shaken, but thanks to the support team and good sea conditions, the situation was resolved quickly. 

As someone pointed out, sea temperatures are essential, as your body can go into shock if it's too cold. We used wetsuits in late June, and then down to wetsuit tops as the temperature rises, which, depending on how hot it's, can make things a bit warm when climbing but make being in the water safer and easier. In August, it's generally quite nice in UK waters but a rash vest is helpful. 

Your point on climbing as a group is excellent, and thank you for sharing your story. Consider sharing your video to show what happened as a kind of 'lessons learned' to help others.

The BMC have an incident reporting service, which this story would make a fine addition:

https://services.thebmc.co.uk/modules/incident-reporting/

Cheers

D 

In reply to wintertree:

Some great points made in your post.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

Conner Cove was also the location of a 'jacknife' injury to a sometime member of this parish, way back in 2003...

In reply to

Just to jump on the bandwagon here...

I went to Conner Cove with my wife about 20 years ago. I'd seen a few articles in mags and it looked like a fun day at the sea. 

There was nobody else there and I quickly realised that it was a massively more serious undertaking than I had thought. If anything had gone wrong my wife couldn't have down climbed to help and it was a fair way back along the path to get help. I soloed the HVS and The Conger and I honestly think I was as gripped as I would have been doing it above the ground. We sacked it after that.

In reply to ollie1:

Thanks everyone. 

Here's the video. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z3u9er3ygGwzR2TB8

Let me know if link works or not. 

You can see me black out right at the end, but my friend only caught that by chance and didn't realise he'd still been filming. We'd already had a joke so he thought I was fine as anyone would. 

In reply to ollie1:

Some years back i went to the Swanage Deep Water soloing festival (think it may have been the first) with some friends. It was a really hot day and so many people were jumping off the cliffs into the water (not all climbing). Anyway after watching several people doing this and with the sun beating down my friend went for it and jumped. Landed feet first fine as she thought but as she tried to pull onto the floating rafts that were there along with the stewards she realised she couldn't feel her legs or even move them. After a helecopter took her off to hospital it was revealled that she had shattered 6 vertebrae and had to spend the next 12 months lying in a body caste. The whole thing featured on an ITV or BBC programme on coastguard rescues.

In reply to captain paranoia:

That was the one I was thinking of in my post. Annie, shattered 6 vertebrae

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I'm assuming she didn't hit anything other than water, or you would have said so?

Roughly how high was the jump, and did she land in a particular way? 

To the OP: a good cautionary tale, thanks for sharing.

In reply to ollie1:

Interesting post, it sounds a lot like something similar that happened to a friend of mine in Mallorca. They post on here occasionally so will hopefully see this and will be able to provide more details.

Short version is, they were trying The Weather Man (8a+) in Mallorca and fell off fairly high up (10m or so?), they landed well but blacked out underwater. They were on their own but fortunately came too without swallowing too much water and were able to swim over to the rope ladder and hang on there while they coughed up a load of seawater.

With regards to cold water shock, I think it could play a part but I think there's more to it. My understanding is that you habituate pretty quickly and the cold water shock response is significantly reduced after pretty minimal exposure [1], so unless you're going into very cold water (i.e. in the sea in winter) or have very, very little acclimation (i.e. haven't swum in cold water at all for 6 months+) then you're unlikely to have a significant shock response. If you're unsure, a swim in the sea before you start climbing seems a pretty sensible precaution if you think there's any chance you'll fall off.

Anecdotally, I've done a lot of DWS and a fair bit of swimming in cold-ish water and the only time I've had some sort of shock response was jumping in to black moss pot in the lakes in February. I guess Im fairly well habituated though so maybe less affected overall?

[1] https://www.port.ac.uk/news-events-and-blogs/blogs/improving-health-and-wel...

In reply to Andy Moles:

It would also be interesting to know if she had any underlying health conditions that may have played a part. If you land well it's unusual to pick up significant injuries.

In reply to ollie1:

Thanks for sharing the vid ollie. It looks like a pretty nasty fall, even though low down looks like you over-rotate with the momentum of your legs coming off (like overcooking a front flip). From experience those are pretty much the most nasty falls i've done (off a 1m spring board - crazy painful and really winding). If you DWS a fair amount, would agree with remus above and say unlikely cold water shock (also so warm in the sea atm!). Could it be the big front on impact to your chest/face that could cause a blackout response? 

And as in your original post lack of breathing through the moves on the route?

I personally find steep/big moves in DWS really intimidating, i guess for the reason that you can land so badly. Prefer being 10m up doing 'front on' moves rather than 4m up in a roof! I need to learn some 'death diving' techniques, to be able to land well if fall front on/side on!

In reply to Andy Moles:

No; just jackknifed on entering the water. It was that extreme bending that did the damage.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

You will know better than me, but I believe I was watching from above when she jumped and without realising she was injured I jumped off the same spot immediately after. From my perspective i.e. directly  above she went into a pencil position too early and landed at an angle so essentially lower back/bum first. 

In any case definitely a cautionary tale! Hope she made a full recovery. 

In reply to remus:

I think you're talking about the same story that led to my slightly cautious approach to DWS, and my never wanting to do it alone.

I don't consider someone "safe" until they are out of the water, or they've fully topped out (no matter how easy the top section of climbing may be).

Ideally, I like to have one person in the water on a dinghy, paddleboard etc, and one on the top ready to get help if needed.

In reply to remus:

I agree with Remus here. I'm not sure where this took place (Devon?) but I doubt the water was cold enough to cause cold water shock in and of itself (I have quite extensive cold water swimming experience) so it was likely a combination of factors, not least landing in the water face down! 

Glad to hear you made it out! 

In reply to ollie1:

This is a goo cautionary tale. Thanks for this 

In reply to teapot:

Yes. She tilted her head back, I believe, which caused her to strike the water with her spine at a bad angle. I did see her at the crag two years later so she did recover. As to whether there were any long term problems I don't know.

I believe it was from the top of Connors Cove.

In reply to captain paranoia:

I once jumped off a bridge in the French Alps, maybe 15 metres above the water. First time absolutely fine. The second time, I think I pointed my toes, so my legs shot forward as I entered the water. My bum slapped down hard, and my upper body crumpled.

I couldn't sit comfortably for about a fortnight, which made driving (or being driven) home a trial. And I had a bruise on my chest from where my chin had hit it, about six inches lower than my chin can normally reach.

Fortunately I was young and invincible and probably very lucky it wasn't worse.

GTE

In reply to C-team:

Likewise 

Its warming rapidly at the moment with surface temperature up to 17C on the south coast last weekend - but colder below the surface where it’ll hit the upper end of cold water shock territory so I wouldn’t write it of.  The body’s perception of temperature is also biassed by what it’s coming from as well as what it’s going in to.  If someone has been running hot from hard climbing in hot air that’s going to add a degree or two to the equation.

Having watching a lot of other people and from my experiences, I’d say it’s very variable how much it affects someone even day to day,

I couldn’t say if it was or wasn’t a factor for the OP but I wouldn’t write it off.  Put it this way - if someone new rocked up to cold water swimming in skins and it was 17 C in the water, others would be keeping a close eye on them to see how they got on!

15 C is often bandied about as some magical binary threshold for the vasoconstriction and lower heat rate responses but biology doesn’t work like that.  I’ve been seeing significant heart rate drops with water n the high teens earlier this summer before the lake got unpleasantly hot.

For sure.

Cold water shock is a bit of a misnomer I think - proper cold water is a proper shock, moderately cold water doesn’t feel like a shock but can still lower the heart rate which is the part that could have contributed to the OP’s incident.  

In reply to Remus:

It’s very variable per person and based on health on the day IMO.  A couple of weeks of short daily swims would do for most healthy people.  A single swim or unexpected immersion does not reduce the response at the time its done. Interestingly it seems to be about repeating the moment of exposure more than the duration.

The sea in early July is “very cold” by most standards; far colder than rivers and lakes outside of the Scottish highlands.  Even in the south coast if you pass the surface layer it’s in to the high end of cold water shock territory,

Re: “unless in winter” - the sea is proper cold in spring and well in to serious cold water shock territory.  It takes a long time to start warming up and is colder than onshore water for much of the spring and summer.

Beaches are often warmer than general sea temperatures and if you are climbing somewhere with steep cliffs, no beaches and deep water it’s likely to be colder than swimming experience would suggest, and colder still if you plunge through the surface.

100%. But a nice well controlled swim isn't going to go wrong if you have a drop in heart rate in line with the temperature here.  At these “cold water shock” is more like  “non shocking physiological adaptions for moderately cold water” which includes the heart rate drop that could have contributed to the OPs problems.  The accepted term of “cold water shock” is all too easy to write off because it’s not very appropriate away from proper cold water.

I don’t for a minute think it’s the only factor here, but it likely is one.  Cold perception and sensory response isn’t just about absolutes but change (we habituate to being hot or cold within some tolerance window and then notice change), so sudden deep immersion when you’ve been running hot is going to be well in to cold water shock territory for some people even on the south coast in July even with the unseasonably warm surface sea temperatures.

Unless there’s a medical reason nobody should be put off swimming in cold water but I think it’s worth keeping in mind how very differently different people react to it until they’re habituated to it - and even experienced cold water swimmers have their off days when things are worse than normal.

In reply to wintertree:

Agree with absolutely all of that. I really only meant that water of, say, 17c entered in a controlled fashion is very unlikely alone to cause a fit young adult to black out.

But you are very right to emphasise that reactions to cold or even cool water are not uniform either across individuals or for the same individual at different times/contexts. All bodies of water should be treated with respect at all times. I'd also agree that habituation typically requires a period of repeated exposure. 

In reply to ollie1:

I have to say, It does not look like the result of a fall. As you were fine and then suddenly just passed out. Maybe worth mentioning it to a medical professional. Had you been in the water before that climb?

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Sounds awful and glad she has recovered. Iv jumped many times from the top of the Cove but its a big jump and each time done with lots of practice and precision. I often say to people that to jump of is a little bit pointless as you would a) not be falling from there and b) would be falling facing the rock, though Neil G has just posted a bailout  photo which shows a required twist, but this is an S3 and very high DWS reserved for the elite. Chris Sharma is currently pushing the boat out a lot with DWS crux moves at about 20m above the sea, and the rick level for this is very high and perhaps not what most people would think as being DWS and in my view, unsustainable. I contently compare it to surfing, one being surfing small to medium comfortable waves in warm water and the other like surfing at Mavericks. Massively different levels. I think having a water level Safety, there to jump immediately, like a spotter is there to catch/guide a fall is so important along with additional safety plans. 

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

Yep I'd already taken a dip that day and many times recently with no issues right back to April when the sea was cold. No history of ever blacking out before. 

In reply to C-team:

As if to reinforce the obvious point that all bodies of water deserve respect, I actually witnessed a drowning today, in completely benign conditions at a suburban beach in Copenhagen. The victim was older and one assumption might be that they first suffered a medical event of some kind, and thus in one sense it can be explained away, but it was very sobering.