UKC

Hello everyone.

I'm planning to climb the West Ridge of Salbit, along with two friends (so a party of 3). After some research about it, all guides seem to suggest taking two 50m double ropes, which makes sense for an alpine climb like this. I understand that it has some benefits, such as reduced rope drag, greater safety if one rope fails, and simpler rappels. 

That said, I’m wondering if it would be feasible to climb it with a single 80 m rope plus a tagline (for rappels), or if that would create more problems than it solves, especially with three people. I would be most concerned about the abrasion on the rope and potential sharp edges.

Any input or experiences would be greatly appreciated!

In reply to Thom96:

I can't remember the length of the longest pitches or rappels on the Westgrat (or the possible descent rappels, should you need to escape) so can't give the best answer, however;

Climbing as a 3 on an 80m rope AND carrying a tagline sounds a bit weird. The main benefit of using such a long rope on such a route would surely be if it means you don't need a tagline, because it's long enough doubled to get down all the raps. If you need to carry a tagline as well, you'd be better off with a shorter rope.

How are you envisaging roping up as a 3 on an 80? Leader tied into the middle and seconds on an end each? Leader on one end and seconds in line? I would say a limited amount of the Westgrat is going to work moving together as a 3 (unless you are slick alpine wads), so you're going to be pitching and having to switch positions on the rope, which sounds faffy. I'm sure it could be done slickly enough if all 3 of you are super-competent with rope systems, but it doesn't sound ideal.

In reply to Andy Moles:

This.  take two 50s

In reply to Thom96:

I don't fancy being the poor bugger who has to carry an 80m rope up there, as well as personal gear.

Was the rationale that you could use an existing sport rope, sparing the need to buy two new ones?

An 80m tag line would need to be quite hefty (7mm?) to avoid excessive stretching while you're trying to retrieve the ab.  I don't fancy trying to retrieve that - not one bit.  50m is bad enough.

I'd take two ropes.  Just so much more practical.

In reply to Thom96:

The guide says : makes sense . . Has benefits . . Etc etc 
 

that said :  . . .  do it differently 

In reply to Thom96:

Is this the route? If so the topo looks useful.

https://www.bergsteigen.com/touren/klettern/salbitschijen-westgrat/

The abseil piste from the top is 8x 50m abs apparently.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Given there are at least 9x 40m+ pitches, using the 80 would require someone to tie in 'in the middle' and the 2nd and 3rd climbers to do some simulclimbing and waiting whilst a) the 2nd arrives at the belay and takes their attachment knot out the rope, and b) the 3rd unclips from the belay.  It makes more sense to climb on 2x 50s and each 'second' has a rope each, especially as there wouldn't seem to be much sensible opportunity for running pitches together to same time (one potential benefit of the 80).

In reply to Andy Moles:

Hi Andy, thanks for the reply! I can see that the 80m is impractical, especially with such a long tagline. It's not long enough for rapping on double strands, and it's unnecessarily long otherwise. The plan would have been to have the leader on one end and seconds climbing in line. 

The new plan is to use two 50m half-ropes instead. The leader climbs with both ropes, and seconds each tie in at the end of a rope and climb simultaneously (maybe except on traverses). We also plan on doing the climb across 2 days, so we are also taking bivy gear. It does sound more cumbersome as a party of 3, but hopefully it's doable. What do you think?

In reply to Dave Cundy:

Thanks for the reply. Agreed, I can now see that it makes little sense to bring an 80m single rope. You guessed it, the rationale was to spare the need to buy two new ropes! But they're definitely worth getting.

In reply to Thom96:

Climbing as a 3 is only slightly slower than climbing as 2 if both seconds climb simultaneously and you keep your changeovers from being too faffy. Obviously a little more time for a third person to come down each abseil etc, but if you're planning to do it over two days anyway, why not. Some friends did it as a 3 in about 7 hours, but they are to be fair quite slick.

Climbing with bivi kit will obviously slow things down a little but I remember some of the bivi sites looked incredible.

In reply to Thom96:

Good plan.

There's some art to climbing well as a three, particularly around rope management.

One quite good system goes like this:

- leader goes on 2 ropes

- second A starts and, after about 5m, second B starts. Second A needs to think about reclipping any key gear relating to directionals (preventing jams) and traverses.  The order of the seconds can be important if the pitch starts with a traverse

- at the belay, everyone is clipped to belay.  If swinging leads, let's say the new leader is second A then

- second B unties and gives end to second A

- previous leader unties other rope and gives to second B

This keeps the "top" ropes on top.

- meanwhile previous leader puts gear onto new leaders harness.  It's good to know what system they like

If you do this we'll, climbing as a three can be just about as fast as a pair.

There are some extra things to learn - one example is if using the roe in the belay.  Then it needs to be the other rope that gets transferred from second B to new leader

This system is based on two things 

- feeding rope from the "bottom" creates snags and delay

- swapping gear is the slow thing at belays.  It assumes that generally a minority of gear has been placed on the pitch.  If that's not the case, then leading in blocks may be more efficient - but requires either pulling ropes to right-side them, or very good rope management at stance

Much easier to demo than describe, but hope that helps.  Salbit is amazing!  Stay away from the valley floor on the walk back.  There's a river under and folk have fallen through and drowned 

In reply to Thom96:

I suppose you could use a 20m+  tagline and still do 50m abs with 30m of the 80m making up part of the tagline.

In reply to oldie: the knot is going to make that ridiculously slow ..  each person, 8 raps... :,(

2x50 is the way to go

In reply to Moacs:

I would think about block leading as a 3 on a long route.  I've found that the most efficient system. The leader has a chance to get a flow on doing multiple pitches whilst the seconds have a good spell to relax/eat etc.

I really enjoy climbing as a 3 provided all members are slick and knowledgeable the system. It's great having company on belays. Makes it easier to eat and stay hydrated. There is some additional safety in numbers. It can be a bit slower, especially the abseiling.

I would advise practicing the system and stance management. Who is going to sort the rope. Who checks the route. Who back could the ropes, who belays etc

In reply to oldie:

Did you think about what you wrote before you wrote it? That means

a) passing a knot in one rope

b) once the knot is passed, abseiling on a thick strand and a thin tag strand at the same time.....which is going to invariably result in them running through your device at different rates and you abbing off the end of the tagline.

In reply to Moacs:

I'd love to do this route at some point, so just out of vague interest - what do you mean by this? What's the valley floor made of if you can fall through into a river underneath? Beyond snow I can't really imagine...

In reply to Toerag:

Don't you just use tagline as a pull cord, to retrieve the rope, not something to abseil on?

Agree with the others though, two ropes is the way to go for the OP.

In reply to RobAJones:

Yes. This. 

In reply to TobyA:

Earlier season / in a season following a snowy winter there can be a big snow patch that runs down the bottom of the decent route which looks far more inviting to walk down than the scree covered ledges you are on. However, this has invariably got a meltwater torrent running under it that reportedly people have fallen through the snow into. 

In reply to Exile:

Yes; exactly this happened on the day we climbed Hammerbruch (6b) in 1996; one of three German students we’d breakfasted with at the hut broke through the softened snow on the afternoon descent and was swept down into the gap between the snow and the slab beneath it. He drowned.

In reply to TobyA:

Snow

In reply to RobAJones:

Ah, yes, I had it in my head they were planning to use the 80+tag like you would a pair of 50s DOH!

In reply to Toerag:

80 m rope passed through anchor with loop on bight tied 30m from end on tagline side clipped back to the 50m part. Tie thin 20m+ tagline onto end of 30m side. Abseil on the single 50m part with clipped bight preventing the rope from pulling through. Retrieve by pulling on the tagline which is made up of the 30m + 20m. Hope that makes sense.

Incidentally I wasn't suggesting that using a tagline was the best way but merely pointing out that only a comparitivly short length of thin cord would be needed to do 50m retrievable abseils with an 80m rope which the OP possessed.