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Gaskins says he's done an 8B+/v14 in a day and made the first repeat of Gossip, 8C/V15.
The Germans say they don't think he's done either.
Are they mad cause they think they've been shown up or do they have a point?
Gaskins says he's done an 8B+/v14 in a day and made the first repeat of Gossip, 8C/V15.
The Germans say they don't think he's done either.
Are they mad cause they think they've been shown up or do they have a point?
In reply to Dru: From what I can gather I think they're just a bit jealous. I would expand on that but its early.
In reply to Dru: If the guy says he's done it why not just accept that?
In reply to Dru:
Both sides seem to be presenting well reasoned arguments (compared to the hyperbole on most UKC discussions), difficult one this. It seems to me that John has has had some pretty poor luck- apparently someone chipped off a key hold on his recent 9a+ route years back when he was originally trying it. He was understandably a bit pissed off and so began the start of his bouldering career. It was through bouldering that he got strong enough to go back and finish the route, and at the time I thought good on him. I guess this is absolutely the kind of attention he has been trying to avoid. I'd like to think we'd get behind him on this one and given that he doesn't seem the attention seeking sort (he left the country immediately after completing his longstanding (9a+ project), I believe he did do it.
Both sides seem to be presenting well reasoned arguments (compared to the hyperbole on most UKC discussions), difficult one this. It seems to me that John has has had some pretty poor luck- apparently someone chipped off a key hold on his recent 9a+ route years back when he was originally trying it. He was understandably a bit pissed off and so began the start of his bouldering career. It was through bouldering that he got strong enough to go back and finish the route, and at the time I thought good on him. I guess this is absolutely the kind of attention he has been trying to avoid. I'd like to think we'd get behind him on this one and given that he doesn't seem the attention seeking sort (he left the country immediately after completing his longstanding (9a+ project), I believe he did do it.
In reply to Dru:
From the little I know/heard of gaskins, I would suggest he is certainly telling the truth.
The other guy thinks he's got a point based on seeing him try the problem, but its probably just a mis-understanding on the different sequence gaskins used.
What is strange is that the guy emailed 8a, when gaskins is hardly the most public with his ascents and doesn't actually have a 8a profile? Surely better to email gaskins direct and try a clear up any mis-understanding before going public.
From the little I know/heard of gaskins, I would suggest he is certainly telling the truth.
The other guy thinks he's got a point based on seeing him try the problem, but its probably just a mis-understanding on the different sequence gaskins used.
What is strange is that the guy emailed 8a, when gaskins is hardly the most public with his ascents and doesn't actually have a 8a profile? Surely better to email gaskins direct and try a clear up any mis-understanding before going public.
In reply to Richard Bradley: John Dunne says he led parthion shot (among others) why not just accept that?
If there is grounds for questioning his ascent why not air them?
NB I have not read any of the debate on 8a.nu so will not take sides!
If there is grounds for questioning his ascent why not air them?
NB I have not read any of the debate on 8a.nu so will not take sides!
In reply to Dru:
Its sad that they cannot believe him.
Hes hasn't gone out of his way to advertise his achievements previously so why lie about it.
Sounds like sour grapes
Its sad that they cannot believe him.
Hes hasn't gone out of his way to advertise his achievements previously so why lie about it.
Sounds like sour grapes
In reply to Ian Straton:
I do.
> (In reply to Richard Bradley) John Dunne says he led parthion shot (among others) why not just accept that?
I do.
In reply to Richard Bradley: fair enough, but I beat him to the first ascent of divided years. Now who do you believe? and while we're at it northern lights was a piece of p*ss, can't understand why mcclure took another year to repeat the route after my 1st ascent of it.....
obviously trolling but you gt the point.
obviously trolling but you gt the point.
In reply to Ian Straton:
Not really. Someone with a proven track record of cutting edge ascents should IMHO be believed when making a claim of a new ascent. If the claim is later shown to be false then that will naturally affect the credibility of any future claims.
> obviously trolling but you gt the point
Not really. Someone with a proven track record of cutting edge ascents should IMHO be believed when making a claim of a new ascent. If the claim is later shown to be false then that will naturally affect the credibility of any future claims.
In reply to Simon Caldwell: but the claim will never be shown to be false (or true for that matter) if disscusion is prevented by the assumption that because person x says they did a route that they actually did do that route.
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In reply to Ian Straton:
The only way top climbers can avoid controversy is to have important ascents filmed. This is of course is a sad state of affairs but it will go some way to remove doubt. This of course is up to the individual and I for one would not expect it. However it would appear that a number of climbers of late have adopted this to avoid the criticism of the cynics
The only way top climbers can avoid controversy is to have important ascents filmed. This is of course is a sad state of affairs but it will go some way to remove doubt. This of course is up to the individual and I for one would not expect it. However it would appear that a number of climbers of late have adopted this to avoid the criticism of the cynics
In reply to Dru: Apt that one of the problems concerned is called Gossip!
In reply to Dru:
In reply to Anonymous:
Gaskins said he did it so he did, end of story.
Marcus C*** is obviously jealous and can't accept this and that's his problem (clearly jealous).
John's strength and history is well documented and this is very much his style of climbing.
At John's age I would imagine his level of performance can vary considerably at different times of the day and when he is tired. I would think this may have resulted in Bock's misunderstanding.
At any rate the comments are childish. To suggest that John himself has not devoted many thousands of hours to climbing, just as Bock and his friends have and that this ascent is an insult to others who have spent many hours on it is unfounded.
John seems very honest and quite uninterested in the publicity surrounding this. Not the actions of a guilty man...
In reply to Anonymous:
Gaskins said he did it so he did, end of story.
Marcus C*** is obviously jealous and can't accept this and that's his problem (clearly jealous).
John's strength and history is well documented and this is very much his style of climbing.
At John's age I would imagine his level of performance can vary considerably at different times of the day and when he is tired. I would think this may have resulted in Bock's misunderstanding.
At any rate the comments are childish. To suggest that John himself has not devoted many thousands of hours to climbing, just as Bock and his friends have and that this ascent is an insult to others who have spent many hours on it is unfounded.
John seems very honest and quite uninterested in the publicity surrounding this. Not the actions of a guilty man...
In reply to Dru:
He did a boulder problem in a day....
A whole day on just one problem ?
Yep, I find that pretty hard to believe
He did a boulder problem in a day....
A whole day on just one problem ?
Yep, I find that pretty hard to believe
In reply to Chris the Tall: Agreed. I must be much better as I was averaging dozens a day at Font!
In reply to Billy De Kid:
On this thread I am not accepting totally anonymous posts which is why the agressive post you were replying to has now gone.
Alan
On this thread I am not accepting totally anonymous posts which is why the agressive post you were replying to has now gone.
Alan
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: Good start.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
It would be useful if some marker could be put in place to say that an offensive post has been removed then at least those of us who are not following thread closely will have an idea of the non-sequitur. maybe a suggestion to Nick?
Bob
It would be useful if some marker could be put in place to say that an offensive post has been removed then at least those of us who are not following thread closely will have an idea of the non-sequitur. maybe a suggestion to Nick?
Bob
In reply to Bob:
Good suggestion, although in this case all the threads did was say that they didn't believe John in an untactful way.
This has also given me the idea to make register-only posting an option on a per-thread basis.
Alan
Good suggestion, although in this case all the threads did was say that they didn't believe John in an untactful way.
This has also given me the idea to make register-only posting an option on a per-thread basis.
Alan
In reply to Billy De Kid:
how do you know it's his style of climbing! funny how in both countries dumb-asses start discussing on the matter (germany as well as here). nobody of the tearing it up here has seen the problems and probably knows neither markus nor j.gaskins. i know the problems and i know markus and am basically convinced that you can't climb gossip in summer on your third day. also, why did gaskins say he had climbed "zerberus" 8b+, if it really was the 7b/c next to it. can't he tell a fb 3-grade difference??
how do you know it's his style of climbing! funny how in both countries dumb-asses start discussing on the matter (germany as well as here). nobody of the tearing it up here has seen the problems and probably knows neither markus nor j.gaskins. i know the problems and i know markus and am basically convinced that you can't climb gossip in summer on your third day. also, why did gaskins say he had climbed "zerberus" 8b+, if it really was the 7b/c next to it. can't he tell a fb 3-grade difference??
In reply to local Idiot
In reply to Richard Bradley: Plus the use of an obviously spurious email address is pretty much the same as anonymity, wouldn't you say?
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In reply to local:
I would be stunned and saddened if John was lying about this, but I don't know any of the parties involved, so can't offer an opinion. I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth, but whichever way you look at it, a fairly well known person raising their hand like this in public is always going to leave a bad taste, to some degree. The only way of fully overoming something like this is to go back and send with ease on camera, but obviously, a person who has spent the past decade repeatedly proving themselves at the highest level, as has John, should not need to do this.
It does seem odd, thought, that a guy of his pedigree could mistake a 7C for an 8B+. That is simply a vast and yawning chasm in grade, and to John that must feel like French 7c+ (super-piss-easy-warm-up) vs 8c (i.e. pretty close to his all-out limit). You would have thought he would have immediately asked if he had the right line. Even I can do 7C on a good day, FFS!
I would be stunned and saddened if John was lying about this, but I don't know any of the parties involved, so can't offer an opinion. I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth, but whichever way you look at it, a fairly well known person raising their hand like this in public is always going to leave a bad taste, to some degree. The only way of fully overoming something like this is to go back and send with ease on camera, but obviously, a person who has spent the past decade repeatedly proving themselves at the highest level, as has John, should not need to do this.
It does seem odd, thought, that a guy of his pedigree could mistake a 7C for an 8B+. That is simply a vast and yawning chasm in grade, and to John that must feel like French 7c+ (super-piss-easy-warm-up) vs 8c (i.e. pretty close to his all-out limit). You would have thought he would have immediately asked if he had the right line. Even I can do 7C on a good day, FFS!
In reply to Dom Orsler:
If Gaskins said he did it, I'll believe him.
And of note is this: Gaskins was not spraying about his ascents. It's not the hallmark of a publicity hound. From 8s.nu:
"John did NOT contact us or any other website or magazine (at least as far as I know) to spread the news of his success."
If Gaskins said he did it, I'll believe him.
And of note is this: Gaskins was not spraying about his ascents. It's not the hallmark of a publicity hound. From 8s.nu:
"John did NOT contact us or any other website or magazine (at least as far as I know) to spread the news of his success."
In reply to Kurt:
It does seem odd to suggest that a man with his track record would lie about something like this.
He seems to be a victim of his own ability. If he does something 'unbelievably' good, that doesn't mean he hasn't done it.
It does seem odd to suggest that a man with his track record would lie about something like this.
He seems to be a victim of his own ability. If he does something 'unbelievably' good, that doesn't mean he hasn't done it.
In reply to Dom Orsler: As said somewhere above, he may have thought it was pish but not wanted to upset anyone. Anyway, that was cleared up, shame more communication didn't take place befor running of to websites.
Just a thought, I've done V diffs that have felt harder to me than VS's I've done.
Just a thought, I've done V diffs that have felt harder to me than VS's I've done.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
Just a small, but significant point, it was an 8a+ he mistook for the 7c not an 8b+
Just a small, but significant point, it was an 8a+ he mistook for the 7c not an 8b+
John is obviously at the height of form at the moment with his recent 9a+ send. I see no reason why he couldn't have sent an 8C boulder problem in 3 days if it was in his style. Having read the 8a.nu article I think Gaskins comes off the better, and I congratulate him on his third 8C send!
In reply to Tyler:
just a small, but significant point: it was an 8b+ he mistook for a 7b/c, not an 8a+. try, and above all, know the boulder before commenting on it!!
oy, yes, i do have a suspicious email-adress! it doesn't even exist!!!
somebody up there said the best way to proove the ascent of gossip (there's no 7a+ next to it, so no getting the boulders mixed up), is to climb it again on video. that's what the local guys say, too. after all, if you're able to climb a 5-move 8c in summer on your third climbing day after having sent 8b+ the same morning shouldn't you be capable of climbing it whenever you feel like it, no matter what the conditions?? i think it is a matter of at least some importance. i don't know j.g. personally but there's a heap of so-called topclimbers out there making money with publications of ascents which didn't take place.( i know j.g. didn't make a big deal of it, but nevertheless...)
i think people do have a point there, speaking of credibility..
just a small, but significant point: it was an 8b+ he mistook for a 7b/c, not an 8a+. try, and above all, know the boulder before commenting on it!!
oy, yes, i do have a suspicious email-adress! it doesn't even exist!!!
somebody up there said the best way to proove the ascent of gossip (there's no 7a+ next to it, so no getting the boulders mixed up), is to climb it again on video. that's what the local guys say, too. after all, if you're able to climb a 5-move 8c in summer on your third climbing day after having sent 8b+ the same morning shouldn't you be capable of climbing it whenever you feel like it, no matter what the conditions?? i think it is a matter of at least some importance. i don't know j.g. personally but there's a heap of so-called topclimbers out there making money with publications of ascents which didn't take place.( i know j.g. didn't make a big deal of it, but nevertheless...)
i think people do have a point there, speaking of credibility..
In reply to local:
I may well have said the best way to dispell doubt was to send again on video, but I also added that a man of Gaskins' proven caliber and ability should not need to be called upon to prove anything.
I may well have said the best way to dispell doubt was to send again on video, but I also added that a man of Gaskins' proven caliber and ability should not need to be called upon to prove anything.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
of course you're right in a way. but it's always a good thing to back up with some proof you know? specially in fj, where this same problem has ocurred a couple of times. and u know, arguments like finding a much much better solution (after more than 10 people, all bouldering 8b, have been trying it for years), or climbing 3 grades harder in the morning and getting 7c mixed up with 8b+...? i mean the guy really is in need of some proof. and mind you, why should a guy of bock's "caliber" (just quoting you) not be allowed some doubt?
of course you're right in a way. but it's always a good thing to back up with some proof you know? specially in fj, where this same problem has ocurred a couple of times. and u know, arguments like finding a much much better solution (after more than 10 people, all bouldering 8b, have been trying it for years), or climbing 3 grades harder in the morning and getting 7c mixed up with 8b+...? i mean the guy really is in need of some proof. and mind you, why should a guy of bock's "caliber" (just quoting you) not be allowed some doubt?
In reply to local:
Local if you're so bothered why don't you discuss this on ukbouldering where knowledgeable people might actually be able to set you straight?
Local if you're so bothered why don't you discuss this on ukbouldering where knowledgeable people might actually be able to set you straight?
In reply to coconutter:
hi nut!
i wanted to get straight by people who don't know a damn thing about the matter since it's them who as it seems are eager to discuss the problem! besides, i don't really need to be gotten straight!!!!!
mark that!
hi nut!
i wanted to get straight by people who don't know a damn thing about the matter since it's them who as it seems are eager to discuss the problem! besides, i don't really need to be gotten straight!!!!!
mark that!
In reply to local:
It's hard to know who you would trust:
http://www.worldfitnessfederation.de/nabba/frame1/dm3_new_he_03.html
or
http://www.timeoutdoors.com/Images/experts/JohnGaskins-article.jpg
It's hard to know who you would trust:
http://www.worldfitnessfederation.de/nabba/frame1/dm3_new_he_03.html
or
http://www.timeoutdoors.com/Images/experts/JohnGaskins-article.jpg
In reply to local:
Bock, like the rest of the world, is entitled to as much 'doubt' as he feels necessary. The point is, he has gone much, much further than privately expressing some doubt, and has openly and publically accused John of the most heinous of climbing crimes; lying and cheating.
If I were John, I'd be offering pistols at dawn.
But then, that's not very Christian...
Bock, like the rest of the world, is entitled to as much 'doubt' as he feels necessary. The point is, he has gone much, much further than privately expressing some doubt, and has openly and publically accused John of the most heinous of climbing crimes; lying and cheating.
If I were John, I'd be offering pistols at dawn.
But then, that's not very Christian...
In reply to local:
Sorry to be flippant, but this looks like a case of sour grapes to me. Us Brits can be a bit upset when foreigners come over here and kick our butts (which happens fairly regularly), but we don't openly accuse them of lying!
I don't know John personally, but I know people who attend the same church as him and he sounds like a quiet, honest chap who has trained very hard to become ridiculously strong. I understand that he's just got a new job, so it's not like he's making a career as a professional climber. Personally, I think all this reflects very badly on Mr Bock.
Sorry to be flippant, but this looks like a case of sour grapes to me. Us Brits can be a bit upset when foreigners come over here and kick our butts (which happens fairly regularly), but we don't openly accuse them of lying!
I don't know John personally, but I know people who attend the same church as him and he sounds like a quiet, honest chap who has trained very hard to become ridiculously strong. I understand that he's just got a new job, so it's not like he's making a career as a professional climber. Personally, I think all this reflects very badly on Mr Bock.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
har..got me there...no anonymous posting anymore...sniff!
hey ed!
it's the inner values that count!!! but, if you put it that way, i'd definitely side with markus bock. if i don't, and he ever catches me trying one of his problems, he'll most likely beat the s..t out of me. gaskins looks kind enough, but he won't be much good with markus all oiled up and everything chasing me through a dark forest he knows better than me..
thanks for the choice, though...
har..got me there...no anonymous posting anymore...sniff!
hey ed!
it's the inner values that count!!! but, if you put it that way, i'd definitely side with markus bock. if i don't, and he ever catches me trying one of his problems, he'll most likely beat the s..t out of me. gaskins looks kind enough, but he won't be much good with markus all oiled up and everything chasing me through a dark forest he knows better than me..
thanks for the choice, though...
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
i guess the brits have had a fair share of butt-kicking in history so no need becoming depressive...
if this may reflect bad on mr bock, well that's the problem with franconians, basically everything they do reflects bad on them, and yes, they do take climbing and especially their efforts incredibly serious. but it's not like they just start pissing off foreigners without a reason..
i guess the brits have had a fair share of butt-kicking in history so no need becoming depressive...
if this may reflect bad on mr bock, well that's the problem with franconians, basically everything they do reflects bad on them, and yes, they do take climbing and especially their efforts incredibly serious. but it's not like they just start pissing off foreigners without a reason..
In reply to local:
" good with markus all oiled up and everything chasing me through a dark forest"
#Remark 1 hmmmm interesting way of looking at things !
" good with markus all oiled up and everything chasing me through a dark forest"
#Remark 1 hmmmm interesting way of looking at things !
In reply to local:
"I guess the brits have had a fair share of butt-kicking in history"
This from a German on a UK website!
Oh, the irony.
"I guess the brits have had a fair share of butt-kicking in history"
This from a German on a UK website!
Oh, the irony.
In reply to coconutter:
Hands up I don't know about bouldering at that level, but then very few do.
But....what even punters have is some (often pretty sophisticated) judgement as social animials who to trust and who not to trust.
Personally I would be looking for a motive, a past history of deception or >positive< evidence of a lie (like being seen elsewhere). From what I've read on this post, all 3 are absent.
> Local if you're so bothered why don't you discuss this on ukbouldering where knowledgeable people might actually be able to set you straight?
Hands up I don't know about bouldering at that level, but then very few do.
But....what even punters have is some (often pretty sophisticated) judgement as social animials who to trust and who not to trust.
Personally I would be looking for a motive, a past history of deception or >positive< evidence of a lie (like being seen elsewhere). From what I've read on this post, all 3 are absent.
In reply to An outsider looking in:
yup, howeever I was thinking this time may be used against him in future similar discrepancies/problems......
yup, howeever I was thinking this time may be used against him in future similar discrepancies/problems......
In reply to An outsider looking in:
geeez.. how i love forum-bashings!!!
what makes you think i'm a german?? if i were, i'd be way to scared of u brits and would not daaaare write the slightest teenzy-weenziest remark on your page!!!
geeez.. how i love forum-bashings!!!
what makes you think i'm a german?? if i were, i'd be way to scared of u brits and would not daaaare write the slightest teenzy-weenziest remark on your page!!!
In reply to local:
"what makes you think i'm a german??"
Ummm, in a debate about the FJ, you refer to yourself as a local...
Sorry if we misread the oh-so-subtle signs!
"what makes you think i'm a german??"
Ummm, in a debate about the FJ, you refer to yourself as a local...
Sorry if we misread the oh-so-subtle signs!
In reply to local:
And take it from one who knows from bitter experience, what you have just received is faaaar from being a 'forum bashing', in RT terms.
And take it from one who knows from bitter experience, what you have just received is faaaar from being a 'forum bashing', in RT terms.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
Mainly because no one can be arsed with him.
If Gaskins has said he climbed it the he in all probability did. The bloke that said he didn't should come over and have a go at Il Pirata.
Mainly because no one can be arsed with him.
If Gaskins has said he climbed it the he in all probability did. The bloke that said he didn't should come over and have a go at Il Pirata.
In reply to local:
>arguments like finding a much much better solution (after more than 10 people, all bouldering 8b, have been trying it for years),
It does happen, after all. It happened with Brad Pitt, did it not? That only has three holds, so you can imagine it could easily happen with more featured problems (and this may not be one, I don't know).
>arguments like finding a much much better solution (after more than 10 people, all bouldering 8b, have been trying it for years),
It does happen, after all. It happened with Brad Pitt, did it not? That only has three holds, so you can imagine it could easily happen with more featured problems (and this may not be one, I don't know).
In reply to Dom Orsler:
uuuh.. what on earth did i do that for?? damn, you sure it isn't my medicore english?? i think i've been found out!
mea culpa maxima..
no, basically i just kind of stumbled over this forum, god knows how... and thought i'd just peer in and see what 7a-bouldering-brits have to say about the subject. you have my total respect: in comparison to german websites this is nothing!
nevertheless, without siding with anyone, i still do think some proof is always a good thing to have in mind, especially under these dubious circumstances everybody knows about now..
pace
local
uuuh.. what on earth did i do that for?? damn, you sure it isn't my medicore english?? i think i've been found out!
mea culpa maxima..
no, basically i just kind of stumbled over this forum, god knows how... and thought i'd just peer in and see what 7a-bouldering-brits have to say about the subject. you have my total respect: in comparison to german websites this is nothing!
nevertheless, without siding with anyone, i still do think some proof is always a good thing to have in mind, especially under these dubious circumstances everybody knows about now..
pace
local
> It does happen, after all. It happened with Brad Pitt, did it not? That only has three holds, so you can imagine it could easily happen with more featured problems (and this may not be one, I don't know).
it's just hard to believe, everybody over in fj has been trying it for years, and everybody who comes for a visit has bee, too. and no, the boulder does in fact not allow for a whole lot of different solutions, limestone 5-move roof with hardly any features at all..
In reply to local:
Well Brad Pitt's only one move, ten minutes from Sheffield, and it took Marc le Menestrel to show us how to do it after plenty of Britain's best had tried it a different way.
For that matter the Joker's only one move footless, and different people swear by different ways of doing that. It doesn't strike me as impossible for world-class climber number 11 to find a different and better sequence to world-class climbers numbers one to ten; quite the contrary. I don't think this is your best point.
Well Brad Pitt's only one move, ten minutes from Sheffield, and it took Marc le Menestrel to show us how to do it after plenty of Britain's best had tried it a different way.
For that matter the Joker's only one move footless, and different people swear by different ways of doing that. It doesn't strike me as impossible for world-class climber number 11 to find a different and better sequence to world-class climbers numbers one to ten; quite the contrary. I don't think this is your best point.
In reply to local: It might be "hard to believe", and ultimately the only person who knows is John Gaskins himself, but take the following into consideration.
The British climbing scene, in keeping with the British way of thinking, is capable of supreme bitchiness. We're brilliant at knocking those performing at a high level; occasionally it's deserved, usually it's not. But you will find it borderline impossible to find anyone doubting JG, or having a go at him. Too many have witnessed him doing some jaw-dropping things; the general attitude towards him is respect and total awe at his strength.
And as to whether he'd lie.... why should he? He spent many years pretty much unsponsored, not really telling anyone about his ascents (christ, he did Hubble at a the time when it was still probably the second hardest sport route in the world and didn't tell anyone he'd done it; he didn't publicise these "sends" either, so who did?).
Well, as I say nobody but John truly knows, but my gut instinct is telling me that whilst I understand why Marcus Bock has his doubts, he's totally wrong here.
The British climbing scene, in keeping with the British way of thinking, is capable of supreme bitchiness. We're brilliant at knocking those performing at a high level; occasionally it's deserved, usually it's not. But you will find it borderline impossible to find anyone doubting JG, or having a go at him. Too many have witnessed him doing some jaw-dropping things; the general attitude towards him is respect and total awe at his strength.
And as to whether he'd lie.... why should he? He spent many years pretty much unsponsored, not really telling anyone about his ascents (christ, he did Hubble at a the time when it was still probably the second hardest sport route in the world and didn't tell anyone he'd done it; he didn't publicise these "sends" either, so who did?).
Well, as I say nobody but John truly knows, but my gut instinct is telling me that whilst I understand why Marcus Bock has his doubts, he's totally wrong here.
In reply to Dru:
I watched da man working on his project at ravens tor and he cranks like a climbing Bruce Lee. Waaaaa chaaaaaa !
If Gaskins reckons hes done it then he's probrably telling the truth..... And those germans had better believe it !!
I watched da man working on his project at ravens tor and he cranks like a climbing Bruce Lee. Waaaaa chaaaaaa !
If Gaskins reckons hes done it then he's probrably telling the truth..... And those germans had better believe it !!
In reply to local:
Yes it probably is hard for you to believe that Gaskins has done Gossip in 3 days. Does that means he hasn't? This seems to be your only reason! Which is ridiculous -regrettably you have made the mistake of measuring John by your own meagre standards. If you had seen John's problems in the UK and seen him climbing on them you might realise that he really is climbing at a level well above your '8b' friends, and as such his ascent would come as no surprise at all.
As you may be aware, earlier this year John did Il Pirata 8c, which is a limestone roof consisting of only 4 hard moves. I have seen both this and Gossip, and Gossip has much larger holds. Hardly surprising then that John can do Gossip in 3 days. And as a measure of his form, just before leaving for FJ John did Violent New Breed F9a+, again only 4 hard moves which would warrant 8c as a boulder problem.
It is outrageous that Markus has chosen to make his doubts public purely on the basis that "he doesn't think it is possible" to do Gossip in 3 days (a purely personal judegement). It smacks of jealously and bitterness towards a better climber which does him no credit. He should have kept his reservations to himself or at least brought the issue up with John privately instead of making unsubstantiated slurs. I'm sure if he had done this then John could have satisfied his doubts by pulling down as shockingly as many UK climbers have witnessed him do.
> it's just hard to believe, everybody over in fj has been trying it for years, and everybody who comes for a visit has bee, too...
Yes it probably is hard for you to believe that Gaskins has done Gossip in 3 days. Does that means he hasn't? This seems to be your only reason! Which is ridiculous -regrettably you have made the mistake of measuring John by your own meagre standards. If you had seen John's problems in the UK and seen him climbing on them you might realise that he really is climbing at a level well above your '8b' friends, and as such his ascent would come as no surprise at all.
> the boulder does in fact not allow for a whole lot of different solutions, limestone 5-move roof with hardly any features at all..
As you may be aware, earlier this year John did Il Pirata 8c, which is a limestone roof consisting of only 4 hard moves. I have seen both this and Gossip, and Gossip has much larger holds. Hardly surprising then that John can do Gossip in 3 days. And as a measure of his form, just before leaving for FJ John did Violent New Breed F9a+, again only 4 hard moves which would warrant 8c as a boulder problem.
It is outrageous that Markus has chosen to make his doubts public purely on the basis that "he doesn't think it is possible" to do Gossip in 3 days (a purely personal judegement). It smacks of jealously and bitterness towards a better climber which does him no credit. He should have kept his reservations to himself or at least brought the issue up with John privately instead of making unsubstantiated slurs. I'm sure if he had done this then John could have satisfied his doubts by pulling down as shockingly as many UK climbers have witnessed him do.
In reply to Neil Kershaw:
wow..this is getting better all the time!
thing is, i personally do not give ... if j.g. has done it or hasn't. just like seeing people get worked up about nonimportant climbing matters. but seeing everybody is starting to take this way too seriously (let's get it on with the "local-" bashing) i might add a few words. neil, hard ti argue about that point with you: i don't know you, and i haven't seen "il pirata". i am also not aware of j.g. doing anything, i don't tend to keep such things in my notebook. i have tried gossip, the problem is not the small holds, the problem is the moves on holds which aren't all that huge. either you jump, or you walk up with your feet first. from the way you write about them, i take it you have tried them both. the point isn't that it's hard to believe but if you combine gaskins not being able to do the moves one day (which is not surprising, the curx is hard!!!), climbing it the next, then not being able to do the moves of an 8a trav. and then, above all, mistaking a 7c for an 8b+??? wouldn't that make you think if you didn't know the guy?? mind you, pou and graham also did numerous hard boulders there and nobody said a word! but in the past, there have also been some not so honest climbers especially in fj so it's pure logics to express some doubt if similar things occur.
by the way, i'm not trying to defend anyone (unlike you) just expressing an opinion. so don't get too emotional. if you've tried both boulders and know john and markus then you know a whole deal more than i do, so maybe the time for me has come to resign...
wow..this is getting better all the time!
thing is, i personally do not give ... if j.g. has done it or hasn't. just like seeing people get worked up about nonimportant climbing matters. but seeing everybody is starting to take this way too seriously (let's get it on with the "local-" bashing) i might add a few words. neil, hard ti argue about that point with you: i don't know you, and i haven't seen "il pirata". i am also not aware of j.g. doing anything, i don't tend to keep such things in my notebook. i have tried gossip, the problem is not the small holds, the problem is the moves on holds which aren't all that huge. either you jump, or you walk up with your feet first. from the way you write about them, i take it you have tried them both. the point isn't that it's hard to believe but if you combine gaskins not being able to do the moves one day (which is not surprising, the curx is hard!!!), climbing it the next, then not being able to do the moves of an 8a trav. and then, above all, mistaking a 7c for an 8b+??? wouldn't that make you think if you didn't know the guy?? mind you, pou and graham also did numerous hard boulders there and nobody said a word! but in the past, there have also been some not so honest climbers especially in fj so it's pure logics to express some doubt if similar things occur.
by the way, i'm not trying to defend anyone (unlike you) just expressing an opinion. so don't get too emotional. if you've tried both boulders and know john and markus then you know a whole deal more than i do, so maybe the time for me has come to resign...
In reply to local:
Well indeed. Climbing is utterly non-important in the grand scheme of things.
I think you'll find what people are really objecting to is a man being accused of lying.
> (In reply to Neil Kershaw)
>
> wow..this is getting better all the time!
> just like seeing people get worked up about nonimportant climbing matters.
>
> wow..this is getting better all the time!
> just like seeing people get worked up about nonimportant climbing matters.
Well indeed. Climbing is utterly non-important in the grand scheme of things.
I think you'll find what people are really objecting to is a man being accused of lying.
In reply to local:
You're missing the point. No-one is saying it's unacceptable to express doubt. This is all about conduct. So, Bock has his doubts. Fine. Talk to John, but don't publically call him an outright cheat and liar, which has what has happened.
All very regrettable...
You're missing the point. No-one is saying it's unacceptable to express doubt. This is all about conduct. So, Bock has his doubts. Fine. Talk to John, but don't publically call him an outright cheat and liar, which has what has happened.
All very regrettable...
In reply to Peter Walker:
"I think you'll find what people are really objecting to is a man being accused of lying. "
if that's what the british climbing scene says in big consense, than that's an admirable bit of teamwork for a whole scene. and you're certainly right that accusing somebody of lying is something serious. but sadly that's the way a lot of things work in our sport, most of them baesd on incidents in the past. if you climb as hard as john it's not enough convincing your mates of our capabilities. i guess he just had bad luck with the locals this time. but honestly, it's cool to see that he's backed up by the whole scene! maybe i'll make it there someday...
over and out
"I think you'll find what people are really objecting to is a man being accused of lying. "
if that's what the british climbing scene says in big consense, than that's an admirable bit of teamwork for a whole scene. and you're certainly right that accusing somebody of lying is something serious. but sadly that's the way a lot of things work in our sport, most of them baesd on incidents in the past. if you climb as hard as john it's not enough convincing your mates of our capabilities. i guess he just had bad luck with the locals this time. but honestly, it's cool to see that he's backed up by the whole scene! maybe i'll make it there someday...
over and out
In reply to local:
>if you climb as hard as john it's not enough convincing your mates of our capabilities.
Might be enough for him, of course. Maybe that's the problem?
>if you climb as hard as john it's not enough convincing your mates of our capabilities.
Might be enough for him, of course. Maybe that's the problem?
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Jesus christ. How about that guy in the top left hand corner?
> (In reply to local)
>
>
> It's hard to know who you would trust:
> http://www.worldfitnessfederation.de/nabba/frame1/dm3_new_he_03.html
>
>
> It's hard to know who you would trust:
> http://www.worldfitnessfederation.de/nabba/frame1/dm3_new_he_03.html
Jesus christ. How about that guy in the top left hand corner?
In reply to local:
An overhanging Limestone roofs and pockets. Umm
I have seen footage of FJ both video and images and trust me this is very suited to JG style of climbing considering his interests in the last few years. I don't need to go there to know this.
Also JG said he had found an easier sequence FOR HIM. That does not mean it would necessarily be easier for someone else.
An overhanging Limestone roofs and pockets. Umm
I have seen footage of FJ both video and images and trust me this is very suited to JG style of climbing considering his interests in the last few years. I don't need to go there to know this.
Also JG said he had found an easier sequence FOR HIM. That does not mean it would necessarily be easier for someone else.
If a tree falls in a forest and no-one is there to hear it - does it make a noise?
In reply to Warrior Prong:
Depends who it falls on!
Seriously, was no one around who saw the ascent? Just a simple question, I'm not really too worried either way but it must be upsetting for the person concerned to be called a liar.
Depends who it falls on!
Seriously, was no one around who saw the ascent? Just a simple question, I'm not really too worried either way but it must be upsetting for the person concerned to be called a liar.
To UKclimbing/Rocktalk editors,
Why have the ukclimbing editors not allowed slanderous anonymous postings on this subject, but have allowed it on other similar ones? Is the mediuem the message sic Marshall McLuhan.
Dave
Why have the ukclimbing editors not allowed slanderous anonymous postings on this subject, but have allowed it on other similar ones? Is the mediuem the message sic Marshall McLuhan.
Dave
since the em in portugal the whole world knows how stupid england is, and john is one of this stupid guys... bye...
In reply to Dru: Markus Bock is a very well respected climber here in Germany. He stopped to give the medias any infos about new routes, repetitions etc. some years ago. He has repeated nearly all hard routes/boulders in the Frankenjura (except Action direct) and established lots of new stuff. I think he has had a lot trouble by himself to publicise his doubts about the ascents. But he stands for truth. liability and honesty in this sport. He will definitivly be the first to give an excusion to JG, if it turns out that he was wrong.
In reply to Ian Straton:
I might have worked if you had Gaskins reputation and not a profile saying you were a HVS climber
> (In reply to Richard Bradley) fair enough, but I beat him to the first ascent of divided years. Now who do you believe? and while we're at it northern lights was a piece of p*ss, can't understand why mcclure took another year to repeat the route after my 1st ascent of it.....
> obviously trolling but you gt the point.
> obviously trolling but you gt the point.
I might have worked if you had Gaskins reputation and not a profile saying you were a HVS climber
In reply to DaveBuchanan:
It was a one-off decision taken for this particular thread since it covered a sensitive issue. It is also the first time we have done this so there was also an experimental element about it. There is in fact another anonymous post just above this which I will leave since it actually contains information and isn't really controversial, and was probably posted by someone unfamiliar with the forums. What I wanted to do by refusing anonymous posts on this thread was to stop the petty accusation posts that topics like this tend to attract.
As a general point, we are always willing to consider people's requests to have posts and threads removed and will soon be introducing a Report Abuse page for this purpose.
Alan
> Why have the ukclimbing editors not allowed slanderous anonymous postings on this subject, but have allowed it on other similar ones? Is the mediuem the message sic Marshall McLuhan.
It was a one-off decision taken for this particular thread since it covered a sensitive issue. It is also the first time we have done this so there was also an experimental element about it. There is in fact another anonymous post just above this which I will leave since it actually contains information and isn't really controversial, and was probably posted by someone unfamiliar with the forums. What I wanted to do by refusing anonymous posts on this thread was to stop the petty accusation posts that topics like this tend to attract.
As a general point, we are always willing to consider people's requests to have posts and threads removed and will soon be introducing a Report Abuse page for this purpose.
Alan
In reply to Alan:
Sounds good, Alan! So will you be doing this for everyone who's subject to this kind of criticism in the future?
Dave
Sounds good, Alan! So will you be doing this for everyone who's subject to this kind of criticism in the future?
Dave
In reply to Anonymous: Why would anyone believe Bock? Look at the article again. He can't even get the dates right.
In reply to DaveBuchanan:
Well we are certainly intending on clamping down on anonymous and random unregistered posters. However there are so many threads these days that things can go on without anyone noticing it, hence the report abuse form being introduced.
Alan
> Sounds good, Alan! So will you be doing this for everyone who's subject to this kind of criticism in the future?
Well we are certainly intending on clamping down on anonymous and random unregistered posters. However there are so many threads these days that things can go on without anyone noticing it, hence the report abuse form being introduced.
Alan
In reply to Dru: Alan i bet if it was a John Dunne thread you would let it ride.
I dont think your comments have a grat deal of credibility and Dave Buchanan is right.
I dont think your comments have a grat deal of credibility and Dave Buchanan is right.
In reply to Paul Everett:
Well considering we only decided to clamp down on the anonymous posters at a meeting held 2 days ago, it is impossible for you to know what we would do to a John Dunne thread since there hasn't been one since the decision was taken. I suggest that you keep your jumping to conclusions for when there is actually some evidence available.
As for Dave's comments; I got the impression that we were in agreement from Dave's last post.
Alan
> (In reply to Dru) Alan i bet if it was a John Dunne thread you would let it ride.
> I dont think your comments have a grat deal of credibility and Dave Buchanan is right.
> I dont think your comments have a grat deal of credibility and Dave Buchanan is right.
Well considering we only decided to clamp down on the anonymous posters at a meeting held 2 days ago, it is impossible for you to know what we would do to a John Dunne thread since there hasn't been one since the decision was taken. I suggest that you keep your jumping to conclusions for when there is actually some evidence available.
As for Dave's comments; I got the impression that we were in agreement from Dave's last post.
Alan
In reply to Anonymous: If Markus Bock can't climb Action Direct a long established route that has no move of Font 8c on it how can we believe he has climbed Gossip? or is Gossip that hard?
I am not saying I don't believe he has done it or that it is not 8c it is just that you don't go around slagging off people in the press when you have seen them on a route for a few minutes.
I watched Ben having a hard time on Big Bang but he didn't accuse Neil Carson of lying or start downgrading the route.
If you stand for truth and honesty then someone is innocent until proven guilty.
I am not saying I don't believe he has done it or that it is not 8c it is just that you don't go around slagging off people in the press when you have seen them on a route for a few minutes.
I watched Ben having a hard time on Big Bang but he didn't accuse Neil Carson of lying or start downgrading the route.
If you stand for truth and honesty then someone is innocent until proven guilty.
In reply to local:
Nevertheless what? You try to make a motive up for why JG might lie then in the same sentence point out why this would not be a motive at all. Why not shut up untill you have some facts to add. You and this Bock character are just an embarassment.
> i don't know j.g. personally but there's a heap of so-called topclimbers out there making money with publications of ascents which didn't take place.( i know j.g. didn't make a big deal of it, but nevertheless...)
Nevertheless what? You try to make a motive up for why JG might lie then in the same sentence point out why this would not be a motive at all. Why not shut up untill you have some facts to add. You and this Bock character are just an embarassment.
In reply to Alan:
Can we have the ukclimbing editors assurances that ALL slanderous and derogatory comments made by anonymous users will be removed in future?
Also how do you (the editors) intend to verify the identity of users who arent anonymous?
Dave
Can we have the ukclimbing editors assurances that ALL slanderous and derogatory comments made by anonymous users will be removed in future?
Also how do you (the editors) intend to verify the identity of users who arent anonymous?
Dave
In reply to DaveBuchanan: You at Broughton anytime soon.
In reply to DaveBuchanan:
Right. So we weren't in agreement.
No you can't have that assurance. I said from the start that I was only doing it on this thread because of the sensitive nature of the topic. However we may well make it one of the criteria we use for deciding whether or not to zap a post in future. As far as I am concerned, and I know I speak for all the moderators on this one, anything posted anonymously is fair game for zapping. If you don't want it zapped, then register, or at least include a working email. Having said that, we are not going to zap everything posted anonymously, it just runs a much bigger chance of being removed if it is borderline.
Registered users are contactable by the nature of the system. Contactable people tend to cause a lot less bother to us.
Now, please don't continue this topic on this thread. If you really feel the need to flog it any further, then start a new thread.
Alan
Right. So we weren't in agreement.
> Can we have the ukclimbing editors assurances that ALL slanderous and derogatory comments made by anonymous users will be removed in future?
No you can't have that assurance. I said from the start that I was only doing it on this thread because of the sensitive nature of the topic. However we may well make it one of the criteria we use for deciding whether or not to zap a post in future. As far as I am concerned, and I know I speak for all the moderators on this one, anything posted anonymously is fair game for zapping. If you don't want it zapped, then register, or at least include a working email. Having said that, we are not going to zap everything posted anonymously, it just runs a much bigger chance of being removed if it is borderline.
> Also how do you (the editors) intend to verify the identity of users who arent anonymous?
Registered users are contactable by the nature of the system. Contactable people tend to cause a lot less bother to us.
Now, please don't continue this topic on this thread. If you really feel the need to flog it any further, then start a new thread.
Alan
In reply to Graeme:
Next week maybe, have injured elbow and sprained my ankle(s) with one thing and another (all at the snore) want to do that circuit! have you been?
dave
Next week maybe, have injured elbow and sprained my ankle(s) with one thing and another (all at the snore) want to do that circuit! have you been?
dave
In reply to DaveBuchanan:
Can we have the ukclimbing editors assurances that ALL slanderous and derogatory comments made by anonymous users will be removed in future?
Dear Dave
Have you seen what is written on Down the Pub?
And is it OK by you if a named/registered poster makes slanderous and derogatory comments? I think they should not be made by anybody.
Norrie
Can we have the ukclimbing editors assurances that ALL slanderous and derogatory comments made by anonymous users will be removed in future?
Dear Dave
Have you seen what is written on Down the Pub?
And is it OK by you if a named/registered poster makes slanderous and derogatory comments? I think they should not be made by anybody.
Norrie
In reply to DaveBuchanan: Yeah I have to remember not to train weights before I go if I want a proper session, anyway I'm off before I get slagged off for not talking about unrelated things.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
>..
>..
>
> Now, please don't continue this topic on this thread. If you really feel the need to flog it any further, then start a new thread.
Is that a request or an order?!
> Now, please don't continue this topic on this thread. If you really feel the need to flog it any further, then start a new thread.
k graeme, may be c u next week. In reply to Norrie..
Why should the editors protect one climber above another, why support Gaskins above Dunne, or Dunning ? I think the editors are acting appaulingly, Planet Fear is as bad or worse and 8a.nu should not have put M.Bocks opinion on their homepage. I think these sites should only report facts not what people belive - they should have either no moderation or absolute control of their whole site.
Thats it! see you, d
Why should the editors protect one climber above another, why support Gaskins above Dunne, or Dunning ? I think the editors are acting appaulingly, Planet Fear is as bad or worse and 8a.nu should not have put M.Bocks opinion on their homepage. I think these sites should only report facts not what people belive - they should have either no moderation or absolute control of their whole site.
Thats it! see you, d
In reply to Tyler:
so what are your facts, wise guy?? something a guy says on some web-page??? you really do know a lot about the people involved don't you??
so what are your facts, wise guy?? something a guy says on some web-page??? you really do know a lot about the people involved don't you??
In reply to DaveBuchanan:
What an absolute load of rubbish. What are you going on about? When did we not protect Dunne in the last two days since we decided to clamp down on anonymous posters? There is no favouritism here and there is no evidence of favouritism. Can you not get it into your head that this WAS A ONE-OFF DECISION, TAKEN AFTER A MEETING ON TUESDAY THIS WEEK!!!!!
It is all about keeping the level of debate up and trying to prevent the discussion becoming a slagging match, which is precisely why I left one anonymous post above since it was part of the discussion.
Go and find another dead horse to flog.
Alan
> Why should the editors protect one climber above another, why support Gaskins above Dunne, or Dunning ? I think the editors are acting appaulingly,
What an absolute load of rubbish. What are you going on about? When did we not protect Dunne in the last two days since we decided to clamp down on anonymous posters? There is no favouritism here and there is no evidence of favouritism. Can you not get it into your head that this WAS A ONE-OFF DECISION, TAKEN AFTER A MEETING ON TUESDAY THIS WEEK!!!!!
It is all about keeping the level of debate up and trying to prevent the discussion becoming a slagging match, which is precisely why I left one anonymous post above since it was part of the discussion.
Go and find another dead horse to flog.
Alan
Alan, you can email me if you want to say anymore about this, or you could just delete it. But thats my point, its a one off action, favouritism, bais if thats how you spell it. I promise i wont write anymore but you can see how annoying it is when these messages effect you directly.
dave
dave
In reply to DaveBuchanan:
I think these sites should only report facts not what people belive
Dear Dave
Do you also believe in fairies?
I am the only person on this site that does not post tripe, that does not mean that Alan has to read through everything else to check to see if other posts are factual. Give him a break, he has to eat sometime.
Norrie
I think these sites should only report facts not what people belive
Dear Dave
Do you also believe in fairies?
I am the only person on this site that does not post tripe, that does not mean that Alan has to read through everything else to check to see if other posts are factual. Give him a break, he has to eat sometime.
Norrie
In reply to local: Fact: Gaskins says he has climbed the bloody thing.
Supposition: Your idea that because you think he couldn't climb the bloody thing he didn't.
Fact: You are an idiot. Go troll somewhere else.
Supposition: Your idea that because you think he couldn't climb the bloody thing he didn't.
Fact: You are an idiot. Go troll somewhere else.
In reply to local:
Indeed; this was all started by somebody emailing a website with a whole bunch of conjecture, backed up by very little fact. Are you trying to be ironic?
> (In reply to Tyler)
>
> so what are your facts, wise guy?? something a guy says on some web-page???
>
> so what are your facts, wise guy?? something a guy says on some web-page???
Indeed; this was all started by somebody emailing a website with a whole bunch of conjecture, backed up by very little fact. Are you trying to be ironic?
In reply to Richard Bradley:
Alas, that part is only an opinion
> Fact: You are an idiot. Go troll somewhere else.
Alas, that part is only an opinion
In reply to Richard Bradley:
Sorry, that is also supposition, based on the inane crap you keep spouting.
> Fact: You are an idiot. Go troll somewhere else.
Sorry, that is also supposition, based on the inane crap you keep spouting.
In reply to Peter Walker: You beat me to it
In reply to Richard Bradley:
so.. let's start again from the bedinning... try and read slowly and carefully this time.
I, never said your all time hero john hadn't climbed what he sais to have climbed. i believe neither did bock or anyone else. itÄs just doubt?? if you say bock's and other people's point is backed up by very poor facts.. what fact does your hero have to back him up??? not one at all... apart from a whole bunch of guys over there who've seen him climb very hard. but: can't you saiy that about any of the top-climbers?? if people don't know the guy it's hard to imagine you know? where are all those facts accesible to everyone? pretty poor point just saying "he climbs 8c's because other people have seen him climb hard" isn't it. and why you getting so worked up anyway?? did i call you an idiot? it really seems that you are all lacking real facts and instead are going over to insulting.. sorry but that's the impression, great way to manage a forum!
so.. let's start again from the bedinning... try and read slowly and carefully this time.
I, never said your all time hero john hadn't climbed what he sais to have climbed. i believe neither did bock or anyone else. itÄs just doubt?? if you say bock's and other people's point is backed up by very poor facts.. what fact does your hero have to back him up??? not one at all... apart from a whole bunch of guys over there who've seen him climb very hard. but: can't you saiy that about any of the top-climbers?? if people don't know the guy it's hard to imagine you know? where are all those facts accesible to everyone? pretty poor point just saying "he climbs 8c's because other people have seen him climb hard" isn't it. and why you getting so worked up anyway?? did i call you an idiot? it really seems that you are all lacking real facts and instead are going over to insulting.. sorry but that's the impression, great way to manage a forum!
In reply to local:
Look a bit further up.
>i know markus and am basically convinced that you can't >climb gossip in summer on your third day.
Some might say that there's a bit of a contradiction there; are you a lawyer in your spare time?
> (In reply to Richard Bradley)
>
> I, never said your all time hero john hadn't climbed what he sais to have climbed.
>
> I, never said your all time hero john hadn't climbed what he sais to have climbed.
Look a bit further up.
>i know markus and am basically convinced that you can't >climb gossip in summer on your third day.
Some might say that there's a bit of a contradiction there; are you a lawyer in your spare time?
In reply to Dom Orsler:
I with you Dom. BTW did you read the Rouling article in Climbing?
Mick
> (In reply to local)
>
> You're missing the point. No-one is saying it's unacceptable to express doubt. This is all about conduct. So, Bock has his doubts. Fine. Talk to John, but don't publically call him an outright cheat and liar, which has what has happened.
>
> All very regrettable...
>
> You're missing the point. No-one is saying it's unacceptable to express doubt. This is all about conduct. So, Bock has his doubts. Fine. Talk to John, but don't publically call him an outright cheat and liar, which has what has happened.
>
> All very regrettable...
I with you Dom. BTW did you read the Rouling article in Climbing?
Mick
In reply to Dru:
So Gaskins is a church going Christian with nothing to prove? Not your stereotypical liar!
So Gaskins is a church going Christian with nothing to prove? Not your stereotypical liar!
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Genuis. Shows how well sarcasm can be so aptly displayed in a text only medium
Line of the day so far..........
>
> I am the only person on this site that does not post tripe,
> I am the only person on this site that does not post tripe,
Genuis. Shows how well sarcasm can be so aptly displayed in a text only medium
Line of the day so far..........
In reply to Peter Walker:
see? didn't say he hadn't climbed it! convinced is certainly something else! basically the same as having a certain opinion. if you do, try and express it in a sensible way (ey, richard bradley?) and we'll see. but my point was that it doesn't seem that u guys can bare any doubt or criticism and are even less capable of talking about it in a decent way on forum! next idea: one of you guys must have some footage of your crack climbing, after all if all these guys keep seeing him sending hard stuff someone must occasionally have a camera on him. why not upload that? after all it might be expecting a bit much of john going over to fj just to get gossip on film. but he must have done heaps of v14 and v15 so send some footage...
see? didn't say he hadn't climbed it! convinced is certainly something else! basically the same as having a certain opinion. if you do, try and express it in a sensible way (ey, richard bradley?) and we'll see. but my point was that it doesn't seem that u guys can bare any doubt or criticism and are even less capable of talking about it in a decent way on forum! next idea: one of you guys must have some footage of your crack climbing, after all if all these guys keep seeing him sending hard stuff someone must occasionally have a camera on him. why not upload that? after all it might be expecting a bit much of john going over to fj just to get gossip on film. but he must have done heaps of v14 and v15 so send some footage...
In reply to Richard Bradley:
For what it's worth (and I'm not sure if it IS worth adding to this debate, but here we go), having read all the posts here and the news on 8a.nu, and without any prior knowledge of Bock or Gaskins, this is what I think.
Saying "you can't have done this, because *I* think it is impossible" is not valid point in any argument, no matter what your experience, no matter who you are. It is an opinion, which you are free to express, but as an argument in a debate it is basic.
The deciding point is that Bock sent a (relatively) public accusation *BEFORE* JG had even publicly claimed the ascent. This looks for all the world like the act of a jealous man, who wishes to keep his own reputation intact, by trying to disprove a claim that had yet to be made, because he thought that claim would reflect badly on his climbing ability and reputation.
Unfortunately it has backfired on him. In the eyes of many British climbers and (I would suspect) many other climbers not native to the frankenjura region, it has only tarnished his reputation. Outstanding climber he may be, but the evidence of this sorry escapade, good sport he is not!
For what it's worth (and I'm not sure if it IS worth adding to this debate, but here we go), having read all the posts here and the news on 8a.nu, and without any prior knowledge of Bock or Gaskins, this is what I think.
Saying "you can't have done this, because *I* think it is impossible" is not valid point in any argument, no matter what your experience, no matter who you are. It is an opinion, which you are free to express, but as an argument in a debate it is basic.
The deciding point is that Bock sent a (relatively) public accusation *BEFORE* JG had even publicly claimed the ascent. This looks for all the world like the act of a jealous man, who wishes to keep his own reputation intact, by trying to disprove a claim that had yet to be made, because he thought that claim would reflect badly on his climbing ability and reputation.
Unfortunately it has backfired on him. In the eyes of many British climbers and (I would suspect) many other climbers not native to the frankenjura region, it has only tarnished his reputation. Outstanding climber he may be, but the evidence of this sorry escapade, good sport he is not!
In reply to local: Tell you what squire; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume this is a bit of a language barrier-type thing. Start arguing over the minutiae and we're going nowhere. "Convinced" is at the extreme end of "having a certain opinion".
I have never seen Gaskins climb in person; I have however seen the commercially available "Stick It" video where he does a V14 rated traverse with holds that looked, in my punterdom, non-existent.
I have never seen Bock climb at all, so I have no point of reference for him doing a V15. But you know what? I believe he climbed Gossip; why shouldn't I?
I have never seen Gaskins climb in person; I have however seen the commercially available "Stick It" video where he does a V14 rated traverse with holds that looked, in my punterdom, non-existent.
I have never seen Bock climb at all, so I have no point of reference for him doing a V15. But you know what? I believe he climbed Gossip; why shouldn't I?
In reply to Alun:
Absolutely spot on.
Mick
> The deciding point is that Bock sent a (relatively) public accusation *BEFORE* JG had even publicly claimed the ascent. This looks for all the world like the act of a jealous man, who wishes to keep his own reputation intact, by trying to disprove a claim that had yet to be made, because he thought that claim would reflect badly on his climbing ability and reputation.
Absolutely spot on.
Mick
In reply to Peter Walker:
u know, let's skip the language barrier part, we can of course communicate in german or french if you prefer but i think that woulnd't do us much good. the problem with this whole debate is that basically no side has facts. u say john is an excellent climber, why not? i say that it's quite suspicious the way he lays out his arguments (you know all the stuff with climbing 3 grades better in the morning and mixing up boulders blabla..). i haven't seen him climb recently, you haven't. the only difference between us is that you seem to consider him some kind of hero and i by no way think that of bock. furthermore, it's hard to understand bock and the local gusy doubts if you don't know the franconians and their history. finally, i think this is all leading to nothing and is in fact getting quite boring, either some volunteer is going to jazz this up a bit or it's just going to be you guys saying the same things over and over again. maybe you should continue insulting at least you might be able to offend me personally by and by.. mind you i can take a lot!!!
u know, let's skip the language barrier part, we can of course communicate in german or french if you prefer but i think that woulnd't do us much good. the problem with this whole debate is that basically no side has facts. u say john is an excellent climber, why not? i say that it's quite suspicious the way he lays out his arguments (you know all the stuff with climbing 3 grades better in the morning and mixing up boulders blabla..). i haven't seen him climb recently, you haven't. the only difference between us is that you seem to consider him some kind of hero and i by no way think that of bock. furthermore, it's hard to understand bock and the local gusy doubts if you don't know the franconians and their history. finally, i think this is all leading to nothing and is in fact getting quite boring, either some volunteer is going to jazz this up a bit or it's just going to be you guys saying the same things over and over again. maybe you should continue insulting at least you might be able to offend me personally by and by.. mind you i can take a lot!!!
In reply to local:
"During a short trip to Frankenjura, John Gaskins ....managed to grab the second ascent of Markus Bock's Gossip, 8C, bringing his tally of 8C climbs to three. According to John he used a completely different sequence than the first ascender. "
No wonder Bock is pissed off. He's just had his pride and joy repeated quick time. It must hurt, hurt so much he can't believe it and has to start whinging and whinning like a child who has just had his ice-cream taken away.
Hey local, what's your real name. I think I know you...Swiss-American by any chance?
Mick
"During a short trip to Frankenjura, John Gaskins ....managed to grab the second ascent of Markus Bock's Gossip, 8C, bringing his tally of 8C climbs to three. According to John he used a completely different sequence than the first ascender. "
No wonder Bock is pissed off. He's just had his pride and joy repeated quick time. It must hurt, hurt so much he can't believe it and has to start whinging and whinning like a child who has just had his ice-cream taken away.
Hey local, what's your real name. I think I know you...Swiss-American by any chance?
Mick
In reply to local:
I'm sorry; that was a tad unfair of me.
Everyone's performance is different; that's a non-point.
True; have you seen him climb at all??
Allow me to put you straight on that. He isn't my hero. My feelings towards the guy are ambivalent, as they are towards anyone I don't know.
You're right; I don't know their history. Does that excuse one of them accusing a man of lying based on opinions rather than the facts which you keep pointing out are absent in this case?
You are just as guilty of trotting out the same argument, repeatedly. But, it is getting boring; Gaskins has elaborated further; perhaps Marcus Bock might care to do the same.
I honestly believe I've done my best to avoid being personally abusive here. Point out anywhere where you feel this isn't the case, and I'll be only too happy to apologise.
Somebody's going to owe somebody an apology when all this is done.
> (In reply to Peter Walker)
>
> u know, let's skip the language barrier part
>
> u know, let's skip the language barrier part
I'm sorry; that was a tad unfair of me.
> i say that it's quite suspicious the way he lays out his arguments (you know all the stuff with climbing 3 grades better in the morning and mixing up boulders blabla..).
Everyone's performance is different; that's a non-point.
> i haven't seen him climb recently, you haven't.
True; have you seen him climb at all??
> the only difference between us is that you seem to consider him some kind of hero and i by no way think that of bock.
Allow me to put you straight on that. He isn't my hero. My feelings towards the guy are ambivalent, as they are towards anyone I don't know.
> furthermore, it's hard to understand bock and the local gusy doubts if you don't know the franconians and their history.
You're right; I don't know their history. Does that excuse one of them accusing a man of lying based on opinions rather than the facts which you keep pointing out are absent in this case?
> finally, i think this is all leading to nothing and is in fact getting quite boring, either some volunteer is going to jazz this up a bit or it's just going to be you guys saying the same things over and over again.
You are just as guilty of trotting out the same argument, repeatedly. But, it is getting boring; Gaskins has elaborated further; perhaps Marcus Bock might care to do the same.
> maybe you should continue insulting at least you might be able to offend me personally by and by.. mind you i can take a lot!!!
I honestly believe I've done my best to avoid being personally abusive here. Point out anywhere where you feel this isn't the case, and I'll be only too happy to apologise.
Somebody's going to owe somebody an apology when all this is done.
In reply to Peter Walker:
"continue insulting..." was meant generally for everyone.
"..john gaskins has elaborated further..."
i hope markus bock sends a reply promptly! this soap opera is sooo much fun!!
no, have never seen gaskins climb, i rather climb myself and don't keep records of how who climbs.
no, it doesn't excuse anyone calling someone else a liar (this basically isn't the way it was said anyhow), but it's less surprising if you do know something about it..
@seabiciut
no, not swiss-american, won't say what i am..that'd be too obvious for some guys.
"continue insulting..." was meant generally for everyone.
"..john gaskins has elaborated further..."
i hope markus bock sends a reply promptly! this soap opera is sooo much fun!!
no, have never seen gaskins climb, i rather climb myself and don't keep records of how who climbs.
no, it doesn't excuse anyone calling someone else a liar (this basically isn't the way it was said anyhow), but it's less surprising if you do know something about it..
@seabiciut
no, not swiss-american, won't say what i am..that'd be too obvious for some guys.
In reply to local:
"no, it doesn't excuse anyone calling someone else a liar (this basically isn't the way it was said anyhow)"
That's EXACTLY how it was said. Bock began with, and I paraphrase, 'here's why we don't believe him'. If you tell someone you don't believe them when they claim to have sent a problem, you are directly accusing them of lying. What's more, this was done in public.
Let's not do a Bill Clinton on this. Bock publically accused Gaskins of lying, just because he thought he had done 'the impossible', with no other proof. Cut the cake how you want it and think what you like about JG, Bock is waaaaay out of order on this one.
I can't believe you continue with your attempted defense of Bock, who has been a consumate tool.
And yes, Mick, I read that superb article in Climbing about Rouhling, which reiterated many of the sentiments I have ranted on and on about on this forum and felt the warm glow of vindication. Just as I suspected, it confirms that Rouhling, not Clapton, is God.
"no, it doesn't excuse anyone calling someone else a liar (this basically isn't the way it was said anyhow)"
That's EXACTLY how it was said. Bock began with, and I paraphrase, 'here's why we don't believe him'. If you tell someone you don't believe them when they claim to have sent a problem, you are directly accusing them of lying. What's more, this was done in public.
Let's not do a Bill Clinton on this. Bock publically accused Gaskins of lying, just because he thought he had done 'the impossible', with no other proof. Cut the cake how you want it and think what you like about JG, Bock is waaaaay out of order on this one.
I can't believe you continue with your attempted defense of Bock, who has been a consumate tool.
And yes, Mick, I read that superb article in Climbing about Rouhling, which reiterated many of the sentiments I have ranted on and on about on this forum and felt the warm glow of vindication. Just as I suspected, it confirms that Rouhling, not Clapton, is God.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
boooring!!!
"..ich habe zweifel.." means "i have doubts", not "i don't believe", his own problem if mr bock doesn't know how to express himself in english! maybe, if you're really so concerned about the whole thing you should take some time and check out the german webpages and see what they have to say about the matter.
read my lines above: i said i'm not defending anyone!! why should i?? i'm just quoting some facts and opinions! sokeep in mind: i don't give a s..t what mess bock gets himself into!
but you guys should also keep in mind that you are reacting quite emotionally and after all, you only know one side.. (as do the people over in fj i agree).
i never did say i was a german! but yes, i do live in germany and by now am most likely more german than anything else...
boooring!!!
"..ich habe zweifel.." means "i have doubts", not "i don't believe", his own problem if mr bock doesn't know how to express himself in english! maybe, if you're really so concerned about the whole thing you should take some time and check out the german webpages and see what they have to say about the matter.
read my lines above: i said i'm not defending anyone!! why should i?? i'm just quoting some facts and opinions! sokeep in mind: i don't give a s..t what mess bock gets himself into!
but you guys should also keep in mind that you are reacting quite emotionally and after all, you only know one side.. (as do the people over in fj i agree).
i never did say i was a german! but yes, i do live in germany and by now am most likely more german than anything else...
In reply to Dom Orsler:
..admitted to being german..? sounds like you think it's a crime to be a german?? howzat? maybe i'm not as german as you think after all... (got the message??)
..admitted to being german..? sounds like you think it's a crime to be a german?? howzat? maybe i'm not as german as you think after all... (got the message??)
In reply to local: Point us to some German message boards discussing it; I, for one, will make the effort.
And so you are better informed, here's a Gaskins profile; several years old now.
http://www.cragx.com/articles/issue13/gaskins/index.htm
And so you are better informed, here's a Gaskins profile; several years old now.
http://www.cragx.com/articles/issue13/gaskins/index.htm
In reply to local:
OK, so blame 8a.nu for a bad translation.
And I, for one, and not even in the slightest bit emmotional about this.
What with Huber's comments regarding Rouhling in Climbing, recently, ze Germanz are not doing themselves many favours in the popularity dept. That really cuts me up inside.
OK, so blame 8a.nu for a bad translation.
And I, for one, and not even in the slightest bit emmotional about this.
What with Huber's comments regarding Rouhling in Climbing, recently, ze Germanz are not doing themselves many favours in the popularity dept. That really cuts me up inside.
In reply to local:
Nonsense! Pure interpolation on your part. I am quite prepared to make the requisite, good-natured and par for the course English jokes about Germans, just like the rest of the world makes jokes about being English, but I have nothing against 'being German'.
Now who's getting emmotional? I suppose that kind of proves you can't be German (JOKE, ok?)
Nonsense! Pure interpolation on your part. I am quite prepared to make the requisite, good-natured and par for the course English jokes about Germans, just like the rest of the world makes jokes about being English, but I have nothing against 'being German'.
Now who's getting emmotional? I suppose that kind of proves you can't be German (JOKE, ok?)
In reply to local: Thankyou; I will check them out.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
sorry dom, you lose this one: i am in fact not a german. but if i were to say what nationality i have it would be too easy for some blokes to find out who i am... though they probably wouldn't follow up on this thread...
what say u guys all come over here and we'll talk about it over a cup of tea??
sorry dom, you lose this one: i am in fact not a german. but if i were to say what nationality i have it would be too easy for some blokes to find out who i am... though they probably wouldn't follow up on this thread...
what say u guys all come over here and we'll talk about it over a cup of tea??
In reply to Peter Walker:
Me too.
And what's the direct link to the 8a.nu stuff? (I knew I should have taken a copy when I read it first time).
> (In reply to local) Point us to some German message boards discussing it; I, for one, will make the effort.
Me too.
And what's the direct link to the 8a.nu stuff? (I knew I should have taken a copy when I read it first time).
In reply to local:
Thanks. I see Bockie is dissing our boy on Hubble as well.
Gossip seems to be a good name for 'his' block.
> www.climbing.de
>
> www.boulderrausch.de
>
> www.boulderrausch.de
Thanks. I see Bockie is dissing our boy on Hubble as well.
Gossip seems to be a good name for 'his' block.
In reply to Kipper: Right, I've had a look. Tricky, considering my German is useless, so I had to use a translator, and we all know how accurate they can be.
But on Boulderrasche, I came across this, written by Marcus Bock. A lot of it is the same as what he's already been quoted with, but I'd be much obliged if someone could post a translation of the part where (I believe) Bock says that Jerry Moffat told him that he doubted Gaskins had done Hubble.
Apologies for the length of this:
"Warum ich Zweifel an der Wiederholung von GOSSIP habe:
1.John soll am Mittwoch,07.07.2004, Gossip geklettert haben.
Ich zeigte Ihm Gossip am Montag,05.07.2004, daraufhin blieb ich gemein-
sam mit Ihm für 1 1/2 Stunden dort um Ihm die 2 möglichen Varianten zu
erklären und Ihn zu spotten.
In dieser Zeit war es John nicht möglich auch nur einen der schweren
Züge des Problems zu klettern, teils nicht mal mit Entlastung in Form
von Schieben die Füsse an die richtige Possition zu bringen.
2.Am selben Vormittag erzählte mir John er habe heut früh ZERBERUS 8B+
in einer Stunde gemacht.Als ich Ihn in GOSSIP gesehen hatte, kamen mir
die ersten Zweifel und ich hielt am ZERBERUS an, um mir erklären zu
lassen wie er es denn geklettert hat.Nach kurzer Zeit stellte sich her-
aus, das er nicht ZERBERUS sondern den 7c boulder rechts davon geklett-
ert hat.
Wenn jemand 9a+ Touren und 8c Boulder klettern kann, sollte er schon
nen 7c Boulder von nem 8b+ Boulder unterscheiden können und vielleicht
erstmal nachfragen was er denn nun geklettert hat bevor er es nach
aussen possaunt.
3.Als ich vor einigen Wochen in England war und Lokals wie Ben Moon nach
John Gaskins fragte, kam mir zu Ohren das Ihm wohl nicht alle die Be-
gehung von HUBBLE abnehmen.Jerry Moffatt hat Ihn damals eine Woche
vor seiner angeblichen Begehung von HUBBLE in der Tour gesehen, als
er die Züge nur mit starkem Seilzug klettern konnte.
4.In einer SMS fragte ich John nach seiner gekletterten Sequence in
GOSSIP.Er erwähnte, dass er eine komplett andere Variante geklettert
hat.Mir sind nur 2 Varianten bekannt GOSSIP zu klettern und andere
Kletterer, die sich wie ich mit Gossip intensiv auseinander gesetzt
haben,sind der selben Meinung.
Ich habe mich mit Michl Kaiser, der Johns angebliche Variante auch
probiert hat, unterhalten und fragte Ihn ob diese evt. dritte mög-
liche Zugsequence denn machbar sei. Michl sagte mir, dass er sich bei
1,85 m Körpergröße doch schon ziemlich strecken müsse, falls überhaupt
möglich. John ist max. 1,75 groß!
5. Selbst wenn John am Dienstag, 06.07., am GOSSIP entscheidente Fort-
schritte gemacht hätte, so wär es am Mittwoch doch sein dritter
Klettertag gewesen.
Beweisen kann man Ihm nicht, dass er GOSSIP nicht gemacht hat. Dafür
lebt der Klettersport wie kein anderer zu sehr von Ehrlichkeit.
Jedoch halte ich anhand der aufgeführten Punkte Zweifel zwecks der Begehung
von GOSSIP für angebracht.
Markus Bock
P.S. John behauptete weiterhin, er habe sich auch noch eine schnelle
Tagesbegehung von "Riot Act" 8b+ bloc. geholt."
The impression I got on the other forums was that people were dubious about JG's claim (although far from unanimously so); quite a few did express disappointment at how Marcus Bock had conducted himself re. emailing 8a.nu without asking for JG's response personally.
But on Boulderrasche, I came across this, written by Marcus Bock. A lot of it is the same as what he's already been quoted with, but I'd be much obliged if someone could post a translation of the part where (I believe) Bock says that Jerry Moffat told him that he doubted Gaskins had done Hubble.
Apologies for the length of this:
"Warum ich Zweifel an der Wiederholung von GOSSIP habe:
1.John soll am Mittwoch,07.07.2004, Gossip geklettert haben.
Ich zeigte Ihm Gossip am Montag,05.07.2004, daraufhin blieb ich gemein-
sam mit Ihm für 1 1/2 Stunden dort um Ihm die 2 möglichen Varianten zu
erklären und Ihn zu spotten.
In dieser Zeit war es John nicht möglich auch nur einen der schweren
Züge des Problems zu klettern, teils nicht mal mit Entlastung in Form
von Schieben die Füsse an die richtige Possition zu bringen.
2.Am selben Vormittag erzählte mir John er habe heut früh ZERBERUS 8B+
in einer Stunde gemacht.Als ich Ihn in GOSSIP gesehen hatte, kamen mir
die ersten Zweifel und ich hielt am ZERBERUS an, um mir erklären zu
lassen wie er es denn geklettert hat.Nach kurzer Zeit stellte sich her-
aus, das er nicht ZERBERUS sondern den 7c boulder rechts davon geklett-
ert hat.
Wenn jemand 9a+ Touren und 8c Boulder klettern kann, sollte er schon
nen 7c Boulder von nem 8b+ Boulder unterscheiden können und vielleicht
erstmal nachfragen was er denn nun geklettert hat bevor er es nach
aussen possaunt.
3.Als ich vor einigen Wochen in England war und Lokals wie Ben Moon nach
John Gaskins fragte, kam mir zu Ohren das Ihm wohl nicht alle die Be-
gehung von HUBBLE abnehmen.Jerry Moffatt hat Ihn damals eine Woche
vor seiner angeblichen Begehung von HUBBLE in der Tour gesehen, als
er die Züge nur mit starkem Seilzug klettern konnte.
4.In einer SMS fragte ich John nach seiner gekletterten Sequence in
GOSSIP.Er erwähnte, dass er eine komplett andere Variante geklettert
hat.Mir sind nur 2 Varianten bekannt GOSSIP zu klettern und andere
Kletterer, die sich wie ich mit Gossip intensiv auseinander gesetzt
haben,sind der selben Meinung.
Ich habe mich mit Michl Kaiser, der Johns angebliche Variante auch
probiert hat, unterhalten und fragte Ihn ob diese evt. dritte mög-
liche Zugsequence denn machbar sei. Michl sagte mir, dass er sich bei
1,85 m Körpergröße doch schon ziemlich strecken müsse, falls überhaupt
möglich. John ist max. 1,75 groß!
5. Selbst wenn John am Dienstag, 06.07., am GOSSIP entscheidente Fort-
schritte gemacht hätte, so wär es am Mittwoch doch sein dritter
Klettertag gewesen.
Beweisen kann man Ihm nicht, dass er GOSSIP nicht gemacht hat. Dafür
lebt der Klettersport wie kein anderer zu sehr von Ehrlichkeit.
Jedoch halte ich anhand der aufgeführten Punkte Zweifel zwecks der Begehung
von GOSSIP für angebracht.
Markus Bock
P.S. John behauptete weiterhin, er habe sich auch noch eine schnelle
Tagesbegehung von "Riot Act" 8b+ bloc. geholt."
The impression I got on the other forums was that people were dubious about JG's claim (although far from unanimously so); quite a few did express disappointment at how Marcus Bock had conducted himself re. emailing 8a.nu without asking for JG's response personally.
In reply to Local:
Very interesting to read John's further comments on 8a.nu. He states that the holds on Gossip are both better and nearer together than on "At The Heart Of It All", his Woodwell V14 that also climbs a limestone roof. I have seen both problems and he is quite correct; again Gossip looks easier. John has also been witnessed climbing ATHOIA in two sections very easily (for personal photos) after a very brief warm up.
The grades discrepancy between morning and afternoon is not an "excuse"; Gaskins has usually left the crag by about 8 in the morning. If you climbed these hours then perhaps you wouldn't climb the same grade in the evening! Just as most people who climb in the middle of the day would fair less well if they stayed awake all day then went climbing in the early hours of the morning!
I would also be interested in hearing about the "Jerry Moffatt" rumours, although if Mr Bock thinks that piling rumour on supposition he will win people round he is sadly mistaken.
Very interesting to read John's further comments on 8a.nu. He states that the holds on Gossip are both better and nearer together than on "At The Heart Of It All", his Woodwell V14 that also climbs a limestone roof. I have seen both problems and he is quite correct; again Gossip looks easier. John has also been witnessed climbing ATHOIA in two sections very easily (for personal photos) after a very brief warm up.
The grades discrepancy between morning and afternoon is not an "excuse"; Gaskins has usually left the crag by about 8 in the morning. If you climbed these hours then perhaps you wouldn't climb the same grade in the evening! Just as most people who climb in the middle of the day would fair less well if they stayed awake all day then went climbing in the early hours of the morning!
I would also be interested in hearing about the "Jerry Moffatt" rumours, although if Mr Bock thinks that piling rumour on supposition he will win people round he is sadly mistaken.
In reply to Peter Walker:
Yes, the thin on 8a.nu seemed to be a direct translation of this (Ican't find it anymore). Minus point 3? (The Hubble allegations)
>
> But on Boulderrasche, I came across this, written by Marcus Bock. A lot of it is the same as what he's already been quoted with, but I'd be much obliged if someone could post a translation of the part where (I believe) Bock says that Jerry Moffat told him that he doubted Gaskins had done Hubble.
> But on Boulderrasche, I came across this, written by Marcus Bock. A lot of it is the same as what he's already been quoted with, but I'd be much obliged if someone could post a translation of the part where (I believe) Bock says that Jerry Moffat told him that he doubted Gaskins had done Hubble.
Yes, the thin on 8a.nu seemed to be a direct translation of this (Ican't find it anymore). Minus point 3? (The Hubble allegations)
In reply to Kipper: If you go down the left hand side of the 8a.nu front page and click on Numbers and News, you the full translation.... minus, as you say, the Hubble allegations. (If somebody would care to translate them properly ).
In reply to local:
Honestly, give it up, already. I presumed you were German, calling yourself 'local' in a discussion about the FJ, OK? So, I'm wrong? Frankly, I don't give a flying turd if you're from Burkina Faso or Outer Mongolia. I despise anonymity on forums, which is why I use my name and everyone knows who I am and where I can be reached. If a person is liable to say things on a forum which puts them in fear for their safety, or whatever, they probably shouldn't be saying them.
Honestly, give it up, already. I presumed you were German, calling yourself 'local' in a discussion about the FJ, OK? So, I'm wrong? Frankly, I don't give a flying turd if you're from Burkina Faso or Outer Mongolia. I despise anonymity on forums, which is why I use my name and everyone knows who I am and where I can be reached. If a person is liable to say things on a forum which puts them in fear for their safety, or whatever, they probably shouldn't be saying them.
In reply to Peter Walker:
I'll give you mine; local can correct it :-
"When I was in England a few weeks ago and asked locals, such as Ben Moon, about John Gaskins, I became aware that he couldn't do all the moves on Hubble. Jerry Moffat saw him on the route a week earlier, and he could only do the moves with a tight rope."
> .. the Hubble allegations. (If somebody would care to translate them properly ).
I'll give you mine; local can correct it :-
"When I was in England a few weeks ago and asked locals, such as Ben Moon, about John Gaskins, I became aware that he couldn't do all the moves on Hubble. Jerry Moffat saw him on the route a week earlier, and he could only do the moves with a tight rope."
In reply to Peter Walker:
Babelfish translations are hilarious. They usually give you the gist, though, especially if read alongside the original.
This Bock guys seems to be quite the little piece of work!
******************************
Why I have doubts about the repetition of GOSSIP: 1.John is to have climbed on Wednesday, 07,07,2004, Gossip. I showed it Gossip on Monday, 05,07,2004, thereupon I remained explaining common SAM with him for 1 1/2 over to him the 2 possible variants and scoff hours there him. In this time it was to be climbed John not possible also only one of the heavy courses of the problem not to bring partly times with discharge in the form of pushing the feet to the correct Possition. 2.Am same morning told me John it has heut early ZERBERUS 8B+ in one hour make as I it in GOSSIP had seen, came me the first doubts and I held at the ZERBERUS on, around me explain to let as it it climbed have after short time issued itself ago, which he ert not ZERBERUS but the 7c more boulder right of it geklett. If someone can climb 9a+ routes and 8c Boulder, he should already nen 7c Boulder of nem 8b+ Boulder to differentiate to be able and perhaps first times to inquire which he climbed now before he it outward possaunt. 3.Als I some weeks ago in England was and restaurant such as Ben Moon after John Gaskins asked, did not come me to ears it probably everything going of HUBBLE abnehmen.Jerry Moffatt it at that time one week before its alleged committing of HUBBLE in the route saw, when he could climb the courses only with strong push pull cable. I asked 4.In of a SMS for John its climbed Sequence in GOSSIP.Er mentioned that he completely different variant climbed have me are only 2 variants admits GOSSIP to climb and other Kletterer, which as I with Gossip sat down intensively apart is the same opinion. I have myself with Michl emperor, who also tried John's alleged variant, maintained and asked it whether this evt. third moeg liche Zugsequence is feasible. Michl said to me that he had to stretch himself at 1,85 m body size nevertheless already quite, if at all possible. John is max. 1.75 largely! 5. Even if John had made 06.07th, at the GOSSIP decision duck away of steps on Tuesday, so more waer it on Wednesday nevertheless his third climbing day been. Proofs cannot one it that he did not make GOSSIP. But the climbing sport lives too much like no different one on honesty. However hold I on the basis the specified points doubts for committing of GOSSIP for attached. Markus support P.S. John stated further, he had gotten himself also still another fast daily committing of "Riot act" 8b+ bloc.."
Babelfish translations are hilarious. They usually give you the gist, though, especially if read alongside the original.
This Bock guys seems to be quite the little piece of work!
******************************
Why I have doubts about the repetition of GOSSIP: 1.John is to have climbed on Wednesday, 07,07,2004, Gossip. I showed it Gossip on Monday, 05,07,2004, thereupon I remained explaining common SAM with him for 1 1/2 over to him the 2 possible variants and scoff hours there him. In this time it was to be climbed John not possible also only one of the heavy courses of the problem not to bring partly times with discharge in the form of pushing the feet to the correct Possition. 2.Am same morning told me John it has heut early ZERBERUS 8B+ in one hour make as I it in GOSSIP had seen, came me the first doubts and I held at the ZERBERUS on, around me explain to let as it it climbed have after short time issued itself ago, which he ert not ZERBERUS but the 7c more boulder right of it geklett. If someone can climb 9a+ routes and 8c Boulder, he should already nen 7c Boulder of nem 8b+ Boulder to differentiate to be able and perhaps first times to inquire which he climbed now before he it outward possaunt. 3.Als I some weeks ago in England was and restaurant such as Ben Moon after John Gaskins asked, did not come me to ears it probably everything going of HUBBLE abnehmen.Jerry Moffatt it at that time one week before its alleged committing of HUBBLE in the route saw, when he could climb the courses only with strong push pull cable. I asked 4.In of a SMS for John its climbed Sequence in GOSSIP.Er mentioned that he completely different variant climbed have me are only 2 variants admits GOSSIP to climb and other Kletterer, which as I with Gossip sat down intensively apart is the same opinion. I have myself with Michl emperor, who also tried John's alleged variant, maintained and asked it whether this evt. third moeg liche Zugsequence is feasible. Michl said to me that he had to stretch himself at 1,85 m body size nevertheless already quite, if at all possible. John is max. 1.75 largely! 5. Even if John had made 06.07th, at the GOSSIP decision duck away of steps on Tuesday, so more waer it on Wednesday nevertheless his third climbing day been. Proofs cannot one it that he did not make GOSSIP. But the climbing sport lives too much like no different one on honesty. However hold I on the basis the specified points doubts for committing of GOSSIP for attached. Markus support P.S. John stated further, he had gotten himself also still another fast daily committing of "Riot act" 8b+ bloc.."
Throw enough mud...
I understand rumours are starting that Gullich probably didn't actually send Action Directe on lead, which is a shame.
At least, that's what Markus said to a friend of a bloke I know who was talking to a mate's mum. Apparently, he spent six years on it and says;
"Dude, das ist reeeeeaaallly, reeeaaaally, seeehr hard, unt no vay could Wolfgang habe es gesenden. Alles all, I couldn't, so how could he? Donnert und blitzen".
I understand rumours are starting that Gullich probably didn't actually send Action Directe on lead, which is a shame.
At least, that's what Markus said to a friend of a bloke I know who was talking to a mate's mum. Apparently, he spent six years on it and says;
"Dude, das ist reeeeeaaallly, reeeaaaally, seeehr hard, unt no vay could Wolfgang habe es gesenden. Alles all, I couldn't, so how could he? Donnert und blitzen".
In reply to Dom Orsler: There really are some absolute charmers at the top of this game, aren't there?
"It is not enough that I succeed; everyone else must fail."
"It is not enough that I succeed; everyone else must fail."
In reply to Peter Walker:
3.Als ich vor einigen Wochen in England war und Lokals wie Ben Moon nach John Gaskins fragte, kam mir zu Ohren das Ihm wohl nicht alle die Begehung von HUBBLE abnehmen.Jerry Moffatt hat Ihn damals eine Woche vor seiner angeblichen Begehung von HUBBLE in der Tour gesehen, als er die Züge nur mit starkem Seilzug klettern konnte.
3.Some weeks ago, when I was in England and I asked some locals like Ben Moon about John Gaskins I heard that apparently not everyone believes in his ascent of Hubble. Jerry Moffat had seen him then one week before his alleged ascent of HUBBLE in the route itself when he was only able to do the moves with a really tight rope.
(translated by Stephanie Minkus - if you need any professional translations (I take 79 cent per line) you can contact me under tubengen's... )
3.Als ich vor einigen Wochen in England war und Lokals wie Ben Moon nach John Gaskins fragte, kam mir zu Ohren das Ihm wohl nicht alle die Begehung von HUBBLE abnehmen.Jerry Moffatt hat Ihn damals eine Woche vor seiner angeblichen Begehung von HUBBLE in der Tour gesehen, als er die Züge nur mit starkem Seilzug klettern konnte.
3.Some weeks ago, when I was in England and I asked some locals like Ben Moon about John Gaskins I heard that apparently not everyone believes in his ascent of Hubble. Jerry Moffat had seen him then one week before his alleged ascent of HUBBLE in the route itself when he was only able to do the moves with a really tight rope.
(translated by Stephanie Minkus - if you need any professional translations (I take 79 cent per line) you can contact me under tubengen's... )
In reply to tubengen: Cheers; a pity we'll probably never get to hear Moffatt and/or Moon's version of this!
In reply to Dru:
At the end of the day, 8a.nu should not have published unsubstantiated 'Gossip' from one climber about another without first contacting the subject of that 'gossip' (and I'm afraid gossip is all it is.)
It would appear they have also quietly edited out references to Moon & Moffat calling JGs earlier repeat of Hubble into doubt. Are they worried Ben & Jerry have got good lawyers or something??!!
Although they have also put Gaskins replies up, their actions could be interpreted as implicit support for Bock's view as the latter was effectively given a free shot at Gaskins in what is after all a public forum.
At the end of the day, 8a.nu should not have published unsubstantiated 'Gossip' from one climber about another without first contacting the subject of that 'gossip' (and I'm afraid gossip is all it is.)
It would appear they have also quietly edited out references to Moon & Moffat calling JGs earlier repeat of Hubble into doubt. Are they worried Ben & Jerry have got good lawyers or something??!!
Although they have also put Gaskins replies up, their actions could be interpreted as implicit support for Bock's view as the latter was effectively given a free shot at Gaskins in what is after all a public forum.
In reply to tubengen:
Sounds very much like a rumour about a rumour to me as I find it hard to believe that Moon and Moffatt would doubt Gaskins.
Regardless, it is a laughable rumour as Gaskins has witnesses to both his full ascent of Hubble and also (in more recent times) his staticing of the crux moves. He also has witnesses to his FA of Staminaband-PUTP link V13/14 which was done in ten minutes (having done both problems years before). This link defied Moon for a good while when he was at his peak, so perhaps sour grapes?
Whatever, if this is part of Markus' "evidence" then he is up shit creek without a paddle!
Sounds very much like a rumour about a rumour to me as I find it hard to believe that Moon and Moffatt would doubt Gaskins.
Regardless, it is a laughable rumour as Gaskins has witnesses to both his full ascent of Hubble and also (in more recent times) his staticing of the crux moves. He also has witnesses to his FA of Staminaband-PUTP link V13/14 which was done in ten minutes (having done both problems years before). This link defied Moon for a good while when he was at his peak, so perhaps sour grapes?
Whatever, if this is part of Markus' "evidence" then he is up shit creek without a paddle!
In reply to Neil Kershaw:
.... as Gaskins has witnesses to both his full ascent of Hubble and also (in more recent times) his staticing of the crux moves. He also has witnesses to his FA of Staminaband-PUTP link V13/14 which was done in ten minutes (having done both problems years before).
>I think 8a.nu must have figured this out, hence they removed the offending section referring to Moon & Moffat from the version they put up.
> (In reply to tubengen)
.... as Gaskins has witnesses to both his full ascent of Hubble and also (in more recent times) his staticing of the crux moves. He also has witnesses to his FA of Staminaband-PUTP link V13/14 which was done in ten minutes (having done both problems years before).
>I think 8a.nu must have figured this out, hence they removed the offending section referring to Moon & Moffat from the version they put up.
In reply to Peter Walker:
'Others', surely? But what a great observation. Only I can't remember whose it was. Cyril Connolly comes to mind, somehow. Can that be right? Enlighten me.
> "It is not enough that I succeed; everyone else must fail."
'Others', surely? But what a great observation. Only I can't remember whose it was. Cyril Connolly comes to mind, somehow. Can that be right? Enlighten me.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
I'll tell you something else about this that puzzles me. According to the Bock side, the fact JG thought Zerberus was some 7c proves he's in some way dubious. I don't get this. If JG wanted to go round saying he'd done problems he hadn't, why wouldn't he just say, 'Yeah, done that. Up there.' rather than, 'Oh, is that Zerberus? I thought it felt a bit easy over here.'
I mean, if the point is supposed to be that Gaskins can't tell the difference between 7c and 8b so he must be a punter, then Herr Bock's a little off the mark, 'cos plenty of witnesses have seen JG climbing Hubble, various V14's, etc, over here. So what IS the evidential value of this supposed to be?
I'll tell you something else about this that puzzles me. According to the Bock side, the fact JG thought Zerberus was some 7c proves he's in some way dubious. I don't get this. If JG wanted to go round saying he'd done problems he hadn't, why wouldn't he just say, 'Yeah, done that. Up there.' rather than, 'Oh, is that Zerberus? I thought it felt a bit easy over here.'
I mean, if the point is supposed to be that Gaskins can't tell the difference between 7c and 8b so he must be a punter, then Herr Bock's a little off the mark, 'cos plenty of witnesses have seen JG climbing Hubble, various V14's, etc, over here. So what IS the evidential value of this supposed to be?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Try this John, you can then search for further confirmation;
http://www.mslit.com/details.asp?bookid=1400052319
Try this John, you can then search for further confirmation;
http://www.mslit.com/details.asp?bookid=1400052319
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: John, if I'm being totally honest, my point of reference for that quote is Robert Vaughan saying it while playing the villain in Superman 3! The rest of the line was "A wise man once said; I think it was Attila The Hun......"
That's my reputation ruined....
That's my reputation ruined....
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
I refer you to 8a.nu's news section (you need to click the news link) in which John has provided further clarification.
He says he was misinformed about the line of Zerberus, and so climbed a line using holds on both this and the adjacent 7c. I would suspect he didn't have a topo, and as a prolific crag developer, probably climbed the most "obvious" (to him) line as he would at any new crag, assuming that this was where the problem went. When informed by Markus he withdrew his claim to "Zerberus" itself, although I suspect the line which John took is pretty hard!
I refer you to 8a.nu's news section (you need to click the news link) in which John has provided further clarification.
He says he was misinformed about the line of Zerberus, and so climbed a line using holds on both this and the adjacent 7c. I would suspect he didn't have a topo, and as a prolific crag developer, probably climbed the most "obvious" (to him) line as he would at any new crag, assuming that this was where the problem went. When informed by Markus he withdrew his claim to "Zerberus" itself, although I suspect the line which John took is pretty hard!
In reply to Neil Kershaw:
Thanks. But my point is different (as I expect you realise): either way; so what? Doesn't seem to help either way on the main point.
Thanks. But my point is different (as I expect you realise): either way; so what? Doesn't seem to help either way on the main point.
In reply to Neil Kershaw:
Don't seem to be able to find that, but it's no great loss. Did manage to find a forum though with some entertaining threads. The one about the hardest route done (sorry, 'sent') on natural gear is particularly entertaining. First of all a bunch of people who, apparently genuinely, don't see what's unnatural about bolts. Then they come up 'some 8b+ somewhere' which (even supposing they mean Equilibrium) puts our little island sadly into perspective.
Don't seem to be able to find that, but it's no great loss. Did manage to find a forum though with some entertaining threads. The one about the hardest route done (sorry, 'sent') on natural gear is particularly entertaining. First of all a bunch of people who, apparently genuinely, don't see what's unnatural about bolts. Then they come up 'some 8b+ somewhere' which (even supposing they mean Equilibrium) puts our little island sadly into perspective.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: what about that thingummy at caley?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
It is quite tricky - this is a direct link (I think) :- http://www.8a.nu/site2/news.php?country=GLOBAL
>
> Don't seem to be able to find that, ...
> Don't seem to be able to find that, ...
It is quite tricky - this is a direct link (I think) :- http://www.8a.nu/site2/news.php?country=GLOBAL
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: Have you been playing American football without a helmet again, John? Gore Vidal (Palimpsest).
In reply to Neil Kershaw:
the 7c IS a boulder combining in itself a new start (about 3m to the right of Z) with the top part of zerberus. there is no way of combining the two lower down. the most obvious line definitely is Z, you should know yourself if you have seen it. and compared to crowbar it is the only boulder there with heaps of tms and chalk in it.
the 7c IS a boulder combining in itself a new start (about 3m to the right of Z) with the top part of zerberus. there is no way of combining the two lower down. the most obvious line definitely is Z, you should know yourself if you have seen it. and compared to crowbar it is the only boulder there with heaps of tms and chalk in it.
In reply to local:
take your own advice local, and don't get worked up about it!
take your own advice local, and don't get worked up about it!
In reply to local:
You should know a world leader in the field.
After all the practice you have put in over the last couple of days you are promoted from idiot to complete idiot.
> (In reply to Dom Orsler)
>
>
> hey no-hoper!
>
> [...]
>
> seems you have nothing else to do than babbling senseless crap all day long
>
>
> hey no-hoper!
>
> [...]
>
> seems you have nothing else to do than babbling senseless crap all day long
You should know a world leader in the field.
After all the practice you have put in over the last couple of days you are promoted from idiot to complete idiot.
In reply to Neil Kershaw:
you seem to know john. maybe you could ask him about the sequence he used on gossip? i'd really like to knwo that one. appareantly he didn't do the walking up feet first thing. you can dyno the crux by crimping that 3 finger pocket but the swing is enormous.. i couldn't really do it either way, so it'd be real interesting to find out if in fact he has a third solution.
you seem to know john. maybe you could ask him about the sequence he used on gossip? i'd really like to knwo that one. appareantly he didn't do the walking up feet first thing. you can dyno the crux by crimping that 3 finger pocket but the swing is enormous.. i couldn't really do it either way, so it'd be real interesting to find out if in fact he has a third solution.
In reply to Richard Bradley:
you ever say something with any sense at all here???
oh, and i've really been enjoying this the last days. im online basically 24/7 gathering stuff for a paper and exams.. that'll all be done with by next monday so this is basically the last chance today to really bash me up!!
you ever say something with any sense at all here???
oh, and i've really been enjoying this the last days. im online basically 24/7 gathering stuff for a paper and exams.. that'll all be done with by next monday so this is basically the last chance today to really bash me up!!
In reply to local: If you can't see why you are behaving like a knob, then I feel very sorry for you.
Come up with ONE argument against JG's ascent that makes even the vaguest sense and I will respond in a like manner.
Until then, I will continue to treat you with the contempt you deserve.
Come up with ONE argument against JG's ascent that makes even the vaguest sense and I will respond in a like manner.
Until then, I will continue to treat you with the contempt you deserve.
In reply to John2:
Of course! Thank you.
(Off to work out why memory identifies Cyril Connolly and Gore Vidal)
Of course! Thank you.
(Off to work out why memory identifies Cyril Connolly and Gore Vidal)
In reply to Neil Kershaw:
You seem to know john. maybe you could ask him about the sequence he used on gossip? i'd really like to knwo that one. appareantly he didn't do the walking up feet first thing. you can dyno the crux by crimping that 3 finger pocket but the swing is enormous.. i couldn't really do it either way, so it'd be real interesting to find out if in fact he has a third solution.
You seem to know john. maybe you could ask him about the sequence he used on gossip? i'd really like to knwo that one. appareantly he didn't do the walking up feet first thing. you can dyno the crux by crimping that 3 finger pocket but the swing is enormous.. i couldn't really do it either way, so it'd be real interesting to find out if in fact he has a third solution.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: I assume that the theme of failure made you think of Enemies of Promise - Connolly's rather unconvincing whinge that once a chap's had children they take up far too much of his time to allow him to fulfil his true potential. Don't remember James Joyce complaining about this, in fact the single mindedness required to produce a masterpiece probably explains why so many children of the truly great ended up damaged in some way.
In reply to John2:
Yes, maybe, though I think that's a bit of an unfair summary of EoP. As I recall it also contains some blasts at the public school education system. Didn't CC have some quip about the pram in the hall being the true enemy of art?
Yes, maybe, though I think that's a bit of an unfair summary of EoP. As I recall it also contains some blasts at the public school education system. Didn't CC have some quip about the pram in the hall being the true enemy of art?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: 'There is no more sombre
enemy of good art than the pram in the hallway'.
I must admit if I'd written that myself I'd have used perambulator rather than pram, but what do I know?
enemy of good art than the pram in the hallway'.
I must admit if I'd written that myself I'd have used perambulator rather than pram, but what do I know?
In reply to Dru:
This thread is getting a bit surreal! I can't tell whether I'm reading a slanging match over JGs activities in FJ or an in-depth literary discussion!
I'm obviously getting too old & slow.
This thread is getting a bit surreal! I can't tell whether I'm reading a slanging match over JGs activities in FJ or an in-depth literary discussion!
I'm obviously getting too old & slow.
In reply to John2: Sorry to distract John and John from their discussion of the nature of art and fatherhood, but back on the subject....
Over on Ukbouldering, Bjorn from 8a.nu has admitted that the email he received from Bock did contain the Ben & Jerry part, but he didn't put that in because he hadn't had a chance to check it out with the two gentlemen mentioned. Herr Bock, please take note.
And I've reached the rarified heights of "someone on Cocktalk" apparently; to think my chemistry teacher told me I'd never amount to anything.
Over on Ukbouldering, Bjorn from 8a.nu has admitted that the email he received from Bock did contain the Ben & Jerry part, but he didn't put that in because he hadn't had a chance to check it out with the two gentlemen mentioned. Herr Bock, please take note.
And I've reached the rarified heights of "someone on Cocktalk" apparently; to think my chemistry teacher told me I'd never amount to anything.
In reply to Peter Walker:
it didn't seem to stop him publishing the rest before he'd checked it out with Mr Gaskins though
> he didn't put that in because he hadn't had a chance to check it out with the two gentlemen mentioned
it didn't seem to stop him publishing the rest before he'd checked it out with Mr Gaskins though
In reply to Simon Caldwell: To be fair, he did wait for an email back from JG before he stuck up the Bock email, and both those emails were in the original article.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
He did, that's why both there opinions were posted at once. Besides it not him who should have checked with JG before saying anything.
> it didn't seem to stop him publishing the rest before he'd checked it out with Mr Gaskins though
He did, that's why both there opinions were posted at once. Besides it not him who should have checked with JG before saying anything.
In reply to squeek:
My misunderstanding, oops.
My misunderstanding, oops.
In reply to local:
I and everyone else on this forum have given you repeated opportunities to say something of substance or interest in this debate.
Over a three day period you have not managed to succeed, while most others have. You criticised others for insulting you and getting emmotional, and yet this is exactly what you're now doing.
Therefore, I no longer wish to converse with you, so don't expect any answer to your future efforts, no matter how inflammatory you try to be.
This is the e-equivalent to turning my back on you in the pub to talk to my mates.
'viedersehen, oberarsch.
I and everyone else on this forum have given you repeated opportunities to say something of substance or interest in this debate.
Over a three day period you have not managed to succeed, while most others have. You criticised others for insulting you and getting emmotional, and yet this is exactly what you're now doing.
Therefore, I no longer wish to converse with you, so don't expect any answer to your future efforts, no matter how inflammatory you try to be.
This is the e-equivalent to turning my back on you in the pub to talk to my mates.
'viedersehen, oberarsch.
In reply to Peter Walker:
>And I've reached the rarified heights of "someone on Cocktalk" apparently; to think my chemistry teacher told me I'd never amount to anything.
It's time we had some pedantry on this thread, so....no wonder your chemistry teacher didn't rate you if you couldn't spell rarefied!
Anyway I think you flatter yourself. Any one of us could have been 'someone on Cocktalk', shurely?
>And I've reached the rarified heights of "someone on Cocktalk" apparently; to think my chemistry teacher told me I'd never amount to anything.
It's time we had some pedantry on this thread, so....no wonder your chemistry teacher didn't rate you if you couldn't spell rarefied!
Anyway I think you flatter yourself. Any one of us could have been 'someone on Cocktalk', shurely?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: A man after my own heart John; that's just what I would have done.
And just to show that it was a momentary lapse, watch this:
Connoisseur (just to show I can spell when I'm not typing in a hurry)
It was very decent of you to overlook the Superman III thing.
Anyway, the UKB thread specifically refers to the person who posted up Bock's full email. That was moi. Thankyou, no autographs please....
And just to show that it was a momentary lapse, watch this:
Connoisseur (just to show I can spell when I'm not typing in a hurry)
It was very decent of you to overlook the Superman III thing.
Anyway, the UKB thread specifically refers to the person who posted up Bock's full email. That was moi. Thankyou, no autographs please....
PS, obviously one's view of one's elders can change radically from the age of 13 to the age of 32. But not in this instance. My chemistry teacher remains one of the lousiest, nastiest human beings I've ever had the misfortune to come across.
So if you're reading this, Gonzo.....
So if you're reading this, Gonzo.....
In reply to squeek:
-----------------------------------------------------------
>> Bock's allegation was posted at least a few hours before Gaskins reply! I saw it on its own in the morning and only saw the reply when I got home in the evening!
Also, if you are going to post that kind of news/gossip in a public forum you should make sure your facts are straight or at least make sure you have the other side of the story before putting it out. The omission of the Moffat/Moon reference from the posted item shows that the 8a.nu people were willing to be careful about using those two names in such a story but far less concerned about Gaskins' ( a less 'famous' name) reputation.
> (In reply to Simon Caldwell)
> [...]
>
> He did, that's why both there opinions were posted at once. Besides it not him who should have checked with JG before saying anything.
> [...]
>
> He did, that's why both there opinions were posted at once. Besides it not him who should have checked with JG before saying anything.
-----------------------------------------------------------
>> Bock's allegation was posted at least a few hours before Gaskins reply! I saw it on its own in the morning and only saw the reply when I got home in the evening!
Also, if you are going to post that kind of news/gossip in a public forum you should make sure your facts are straight or at least make sure you have the other side of the story before putting it out. The omission of the Moffat/Moon reference from the posted item shows that the 8a.nu people were willing to be careful about using those two names in such a story but far less concerned about Gaskins' ( a less 'famous' name) reputation.
In reply to Dru:
It's interesting to me the contrast between this Gaskins-Bock controversy and, say, the Huber-Fernandez Chilam Balam controversy. Or the Huber comments on Akira.
A couple of years ago Ben Moon went public and claimed that he didn't have to redpoint, or even get on, a climb to downrate it I believe his argument was something like "JB Tribout did it so it can't really be 14c". Is not this same logic at work here?
Finally would the arguments be any different if it was Si O'Connor instead of John Gaskins who had claimed a quick repeat of Gossip?
PS: Let's not forget Gossip was originally given V14 and only got upgraded to V15 by Bock some time after his ascent. Maybe it should go back down to V14 if Gaskins can climb it easily and it has bigger holds closer together than Gaskins V14 at Woodwell?
I would also say that it does seem that if Gaskins can do it that easily it should not be hard for him to repeat it on video and put his critics down definitively. Maybe they can even pay for his airfare. Or he could do a Maestri and compressor-drill a bolt ladder up it!
It's interesting to me the contrast between this Gaskins-Bock controversy and, say, the Huber-Fernandez Chilam Balam controversy. Or the Huber comments on Akira.
A couple of years ago Ben Moon went public and claimed that he didn't have to redpoint, or even get on, a climb to downrate it I believe his argument was something like "JB Tribout did it so it can't really be 14c". Is not this same logic at work here?
Finally would the arguments be any different if it was Si O'Connor instead of John Gaskins who had claimed a quick repeat of Gossip?
PS: Let's not forget Gossip was originally given V14 and only got upgraded to V15 by Bock some time after his ascent. Maybe it should go back down to V14 if Gaskins can climb it easily and it has bigger holds closer together than Gaskins V14 at Woodwell?
I would also say that it does seem that if Gaskins can do it that easily it should not be hard for him to repeat it on video and put his critics down definitively. Maybe they can even pay for his airfare. Or he could do a Maestri and compressor-drill a bolt ladder up it!
In reply to Dru:
Seems to me that that is the crux of this whole very sorry affair. Bock has been burnt. The old rock stars of yesteryear just have to diss the young guns. How very sad.
Mick
> (In reply to Dru)
>
> PS: Let's not forget Gossip was originally given V14 and only got upgraded to V15 by Bock some time after his ascent. Maybe it should go back down to V14 if Gaskins can climb it easily and it has bigger holds closer together than Gaskins V14 at Woodwell?
>
> PS: Let's not forget Gossip was originally given V14 and only got upgraded to V15 by Bock some time after his ascent. Maybe it should go back down to V14 if Gaskins can climb it easily and it has bigger holds closer together than Gaskins V14 at Woodwell?
Seems to me that that is the crux of this whole very sorry affair. Bock has been burnt. The old rock stars of yesteryear just have to diss the young guns. How very sad.
Mick
In reply to Anonymous:
But Bock himself is a young gun who was touted in an article Bernard van Dierendonck wrote for Rock and Ice magazine as "Germany's answer to Chris Sharma" in the late 1990's.
But Bock himself is a young gun who was touted in an article Bernard van Dierendonck wrote for Rock and Ice magazine as "Germany's answer to Chris Sharma" in the late 1990's.
In reply to Anonymous:
Hi Mick, it is sad when someone finds they cannot keep up with the rising stars and then disses them. What is worse in some cases like this is that people are jumping in who cannot do that grade and still knock Gaskins. I have never met him apart from once but he seems to have got very focused and is up with the top three or four ATM in bouldering and short routes.
Hi Mick, it is sad when someone finds they cannot keep up with the rising stars and then disses them. What is worse in some cases like this is that people are jumping in who cannot do that grade and still knock Gaskins. I have never met him apart from once but he seems to have got very focused and is up with the top three or four ATM in bouldering and short routes.
In reply to sutty:
By 'eck Sutty. Makes you glad to be proper punter, like, not 'avin to put up with this shite. Rememeber and take t'camera on Parson's Chimney next time or no one need believe you.
By 'eck Sutty. Makes you glad to be proper punter, like, not 'avin to put up with this shite. Rememeber and take t'camera on Parson's Chimney next time or no one need believe you.
In reply to Il Bergamasco:
Ciao, come sta? Dove va oggi? E la proxima?
Sod it, the language has gone. Have a good time out there.
Ciao, come sta? Dove va oggi? E la proxima?
Sod it, the language has gone. Have a good time out there.
In reply to Dru:
I just wonder if this whole thing has spilled out into what I call "cultural misunderstandings". I deal with germans on a day to day basis, everything is very very structured and " matter of fact". What we in the uk consider an insult, they wonder what the fuss is over, as when they write something it is not very tactfully, it goes straight to the point, and is not subtle.
You soon realise they are not being hurtful, it is just there culture. Equally our way of looking at things looks odd to them.
All this and we are meant to be "europeans".
In the uk we have do doubts that JG did it. Germans will look for hard proof...they do this in everything.
I just wonder if this whole thing has spilled out into what I call "cultural misunderstandings". I deal with germans on a day to day basis, everything is very very structured and " matter of fact". What we in the uk consider an insult, they wonder what the fuss is over, as when they write something it is not very tactfully, it goes straight to the point, and is not subtle.
You soon realise they are not being hurtful, it is just there culture. Equally our way of looking at things looks odd to them.
All this and we are meant to be "europeans".
In the uk we have do doubts that JG did it. Germans will look for hard proof...they do this in everything.
In reply to Dru:
I should have added that a simple example of this difference is the breaking of the Enigma code
We broke the code. The Germans had suspicions that it was broken, but refused to believe that anybody could break the code.So carried on using it.
An interesting parallel...
I should have added that a simple example of this difference is the breaking of the Enigma code
We broke the code. The Germans had suspicions that it was broken, but refused to believe that anybody could break the code.So carried on using it.
An interesting parallel...
1. Its not "The Germans", it is one guy. If you've read some german boards, you would know, that most people don't see the point in making this a public debate. Nobody thinks, that this type of behaviour goes along with the spirit of sportclimbing f.ex. read http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportclimbing.de%2...
2. If someone of you read Markus' original statement, it would have been clear, that he picked a very carefull wording and that he just was puzzled, because JG left him pretty unimpressed and sceptical about his abilities and claimed later to have achieved climbing unwittnessed the local top routes in a way Markus says is physically impossible.
3. The way you all defend JG without looking at the provided facts is very sporty, but leaves for us germans only two conclusions: JG is really a well known and respected climber that deserves no doubt or this is just the british way.
4. Im just a forum reader, love flamewars and climb a much lower level that the most of you.
2. If someone of you read Markus' original statement, it would have been clear, that he picked a very carefull wording and that he just was puzzled, because JG left him pretty unimpressed and sceptical about his abilities and claimed later to have achieved climbing unwittnessed the local top routes in a way Markus says is physically impossible.
3. The way you all defend JG without looking at the provided facts is very sporty, but leaves for us germans only two conclusions: JG is really a well known and respected climber that deserves no doubt or this is just the british way.
4. Im just a forum reader, love flamewars and climb a much lower level that the most of you.
In reply to DaveC at Work: No, Gaskins' reply was NOT posted after Bock's allegation. They were posted simultanously.
Gaskins' 2nd reply however was posted two days later.
Gaskins' 2nd reply however was posted two days later.
slight change of subject, has anyone repeated or tried 'walk away' yet? or any of his other problems?
i don't keep up to date with news these days but i think that unless people are repeating his stuff then his ability and honesty cannot be called into question.
i'm probably wrong about this, but did someone repeat dreamtime in one or two days?
i don't keep up to date with news these days but i think that unless people are repeating his stuff then his ability and honesty cannot be called into question.
i'm probably wrong about this, but did someone repeat dreamtime in one or two days?
In reply to forum_reader:
In other words he didn't have the balls to say what he really thought.
> 2. If someone of you read Markus' original statement, it would have been clear, that he picked a very carefull wording and that he just was puzzled, because JG left him pretty unimpressed and sceptical about his abilities and claimed later to have achieved climbing unwittnessed the local top routes in a way Markus says is physically impossible.
In other words he didn't have the balls to say what he really thought.
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