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Im unlikely to be able to make it to a meet (see the BMC's premier post) ,as even skiptons very far south, and I'm guessing alot of others, might not make it.
But if you could attend - what issue would you raise?
For me i think lessening environmental impact of climbing and walking is a big issue. I think the BMC do some great work on this issue, but there is always more that can be done.
But if you could attend - what issue would you raise?
For me i think lessening environmental impact of climbing and walking is a big issue. I think the BMC do some great work on this issue, but there is always more that can be done.
In reply to es:
Enviro issues are good to keep in the forefront, but we also need to tackle safety, as regards to indoor climbers etc going outside without really appreciating the differences. Might be an idea for the BMC to have some volunteer climbers to go out and help newbies with technique etc. Kinda workshops etc.
Enviro issues are good to keep in the forefront, but we also need to tackle safety, as regards to indoor climbers etc going outside without really appreciating the differences. Might be an idea for the BMC to have some volunteer climbers to go out and help newbies with technique etc. Kinda workshops etc.
In reply to es:
How about the state of fixed gear? So many crags, so much rotting tat, old pegs etc. Replace like for like or bolts?
What do you reckon?
How about the state of fixed gear? So many crags, so much rotting tat, old pegs etc. Replace like for like or bolts?
What do you reckon?
In reply to es: chockstones
In reply to J2: sort of agree with you. why volunteers though? why would someone teach you somthing important for free? would someone teach you how to play squash at the local gym for free
In reply to trolly:
maybe they can get some pay, just the BMC seem skint all the time. Some nice people might want to put something back into the game and volunteer there time to help.
maybe they can get some pay, just the BMC seem skint all the time. Some nice people might want to put something back into the game and volunteer there time to help.
In reply to J2: would you? if so why arent you? look, i take friends out to get them started, use all my own gear etc dont ask for money. but its once in a while couldnt be bothered to do it all the time though. unless i was paid
In reply to john horscroft: Its not somthing that greatly affects my climbing (selfish i know) so not top of my priorities, i can see the value in replacing bolts and the likes to make them safe. Should it be the BMC's responsibility though?
In reply to J2: you could always find someone to take the time and effort to teach you for free
In reply to J2: ;0) cheers
In reply to es:
Onr thing immediately springs to mind - some kind of scheme for recycling old gear: for example 'rocks' and 'friends' are relatively easy to dismantle into their constituent components and then be melted down, and there must be some use for old rope, otherwise its just quite specialised materials ending up in landfill.
I suppose this would come under the heading of lessening the environmental impact of climbing.
James.
Onr thing immediately springs to mind - some kind of scheme for recycling old gear: for example 'rocks' and 'friends' are relatively easy to dismantle into their constituent components and then be melted down, and there must be some use for old rope, otherwise its just quite specialised materials ending up in landfill.
I suppose this would come under the heading of lessening the environmental impact of climbing.
James.
In reply to James Rowe:
manufacturers will eventually be responsible for the return and re-use or recycling of the products, its already europena law for our products!
manufacturers will eventually be responsible for the return and re-use or recycling of the products, its already europena law for our products!
In reply to J2:
I think teaching or even actively encourageing climbing goes way beyond the remit of the representative body.
In fact, given that they have a mandate to look after access and represent us on matters environmental, you could argue that they should actively discourage more crag users !
If you want support, though, the mechanism which already exists is the nation wide network of clubs (the BMC was originally just an affiliation of clubs).
I think teaching or even actively encourageing climbing goes way beyond the remit of the representative body.
In fact, given that they have a mandate to look after access and represent us on matters environmental, you could argue that they should actively discourage more crag users !
If you want support, though, the mechanism which already exists is the nation wide network of clubs (the BMC was originally just an affiliation of clubs).
In reply to es:
For me, the main debate is what is the BMC's role, if any, in policing agreed local bolting/fixed pro policies.
For me, the main debate is what is the BMC's role, if any, in policing agreed local bolting/fixed pro policies.
In reply to GrahamD: So are you going to say if you think they should be or should not?
In reply to es:
Educating people in the history, traditions and ethics of british climbing.
If you don't learn to climb with 'dad' or your mates already know these things, how do you learn what's accepted practice etc.
If you learned at the wall and then went outside - how would you have a clue as to what's accepted or not? Could lead to chipping and lack of respect for both the environment and rock.
PS I'm not some ethicaly pure manic (like some on here) as I mainly boulder now and even do some sport and top rope when I feel like it. But I do feel you should be given the facts to make up your choices.
Jon
Educating people in the history, traditions and ethics of british climbing.
If you don't learn to climb with 'dad' or your mates already know these things, how do you learn what's accepted practice etc.
If you learned at the wall and then went outside - how would you have a clue as to what's accepted or not? Could lead to chipping and lack of respect for both the environment and rock.
PS I'm not some ethicaly pure manic (like some on here) as I mainly boulder now and even do some sport and top rope when I feel like it. But I do feel you should be given the facts to make up your choices.
Jon
In reply to es: I would raise concerns about the current state of climbing instruction in the UK. I looked in to being a guide/instructor or whatever and I was pretty shocked. The highest level instructors only have to climb VS and I think they only have to have done 50 of them.
A friend told me (so might not be true) that the average leading grade in the UK was HVS, so to be an instructor you have to be below average!
To get the lowest award in France you have to lead F7a+ - I know because I've applied to get it.
Does the BMC regulate this area? If not who does?
A friend told me (so might not be true) that the average leading grade in the UK was HVS, so to be an instructor you have to be below average!
To get the lowest award in France you have to lead F7a+ - I know because I've applied to get it.
Does the BMC regulate this area? If not who does?
In reply to suzy_lu:
MLTUK http://www.mltuk.org
>
> Does the BMC regulate this area? If not who does?
> Does the BMC regulate this area? If not who does?
MLTUK http://www.mltuk.org
In reply to suzy_lu:
That requirement seems a trifle excessive. The rock-climbing standard for entry to British Mountain Guide training is 50 multi-pitch routes at E1 5b or above (plus experience of leading 5c) and this meets the European guiding standards.
(I know because I looked on their website - no guide I)
Obviously coaching for higher levels of difficulty requires commensurate ability, but 7a+ is well beyond the reach of most beginners.
That requirement seems a trifle excessive. The rock-climbing standard for entry to British Mountain Guide training is 50 multi-pitch routes at E1 5b or above (plus experience of leading 5c) and this meets the European guiding standards.
(I know because I looked on their website - no guide I)
Obviously coaching for higher levels of difficulty requires commensurate ability, but 7a+ is well beyond the reach of most beginners.
In reply to darkinbad:
>but 7a+ is well beyond the reach of most beginners.
And guides/instructors by the sound of it!
You have to demonstrate 2 leads in France, my instructor told me one had to be F6c+ and one F7a (or one F6c and one F7a+) can't remember which way around.
I (and many friends) could top rope 6b+ at the climbing wall on our secong visit, so it's not that unusual?
It just seems that if someone wants to make a career out of climbing (the lucky gits!) they should at least be half good at it.
I don't mean for the basic top roping for kids stuff, I mean proper insructors/guide types.
>but 7a+ is well beyond the reach of most beginners.
And guides/instructors by the sound of it!
You have to demonstrate 2 leads in France, my instructor told me one had to be F6c+ and one F7a (or one F6c and one F7a+) can't remember which way around.
I (and many friends) could top rope 6b+ at the climbing wall on our secong visit, so it's not that unusual?
It just seems that if someone wants to make a career out of climbing (the lucky gits!) they should at least be half good at it.
I don't mean for the basic top roping for kids stuff, I mean proper insructors/guide types.
In reply to suzy_lu:
You know I'm an 'instructor' and I couldn't agree more!!
If you can climb - climb...if you can't climb - teach
PS I climb more than VS and less than 7a+ and have done significantly more than 50 VS's!! - and you should well know that 6b+ on a climbing wall aint the same as 6b+ on the crag....
You know I'm an 'instructor' and I couldn't agree more!!
If you can climb - climb...if you can't climb - teach
PS I climb more than VS and less than 7a+ and have done significantly more than 50 VS's!! - and you should well know that 6b+ on a climbing wall aint the same as 6b+ on the crag....
In reply to Hammy:
yeah ones made of rock and ones made of plastic
yeah ones made of rock and ones made of plastic
In reply to suzy_lu:
Suzy you echo a similar sentiment to that expressed by others such as Pete Livesey
"The wasteful and vitriolic mountain leadership wars of the mid-70s fought for control of mountain training in this country...has resulted in the most appalling set of low level courses and examinations in subjects tenuously titled Outdoor Pursuits which must have traditional mountain users squirming with discomfort"
> I would raise concerns about the current state of climbing instruction
Suzy you echo a similar sentiment to that expressed by others such as Pete Livesey
"The wasteful and vitriolic mountain leadership wars of the mid-70s fought for control of mountain training in this country...has resulted in the most appalling set of low level courses and examinations in subjects tenuously titled Outdoor Pursuits which must have traditional mountain users squirming with discomfort"
In reply to suzy_lu:
It is practically all it does! It becomes more of a trade union than a membership organisation with every passing day.
Just look at all the scurrying round that has taken place about the new Safety at work rules.
I bet that poked them into action like nothing else.
Try getting any kind of response to a core priority issue, say, on access and conservation.
When was the last time the regional access database was updated? Do a search on these forums, there are frequent complaints about this.
To be honest you may as well whistle in the wind.
Are all these awards reaaly in the interests of ordinary members and clubs.
But still the old boys club lumbers on, intent on encumbering us all with rules and regulation.
BMC, MTT, MLTE, BMG, AMI, you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. Jobs for the boys.
There is big money at stake you see;
£500,000 of tax payers money, channeled through from the sports council via the BMC to PyB, just to subsidise Plas-Y-Brenin. (Check the February minutes of the Peak area meeting minutes.)
If you had that kind of money to spend on increasing mountain skills across the board you could spend it far more fairly and efficiently than on that white elephant.
How would you feel if you were an independent instructor competing in that kind of twisted market.
Well you would probably keep your head down if the vindictive past behaviour of the old boys network is anything to go by.
(By the way, if you still have aspirations of going professional, I would retract your above statement, change your name and lie low for at least a couple of years from now)
> Does the BMC regulate this area? If not who does?
It is practically all it does! It becomes more of a trade union than a membership organisation with every passing day.
Just look at all the scurrying round that has taken place about the new Safety at work rules.
I bet that poked them into action like nothing else.
Try getting any kind of response to a core priority issue, say, on access and conservation.
When was the last time the regional access database was updated? Do a search on these forums, there are frequent complaints about this.
To be honest you may as well whistle in the wind.
Are all these awards reaaly in the interests of ordinary members and clubs.
But still the old boys club lumbers on, intent on encumbering us all with rules and regulation.
BMC, MTT, MLTE, BMG, AMI, you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. Jobs for the boys.
There is big money at stake you see;
£500,000 of tax payers money, channeled through from the sports council via the BMC to PyB, just to subsidise Plas-Y-Brenin. (Check the February minutes of the Peak area meeting minutes.)
If you had that kind of money to spend on increasing mountain skills across the board you could spend it far more fairly and efficiently than on that white elephant.
How would you feel if you were an independent instructor competing in that kind of twisted market.
Well you would probably keep your head down if the vindictive past behaviour of the old boys network is anything to go by.
(By the way, if you still have aspirations of going professional, I would retract your above statement, change your name and lie low for at least a couple of years from now)
In reply to suzy_lu:
I myself cannot really get worked up about the grade for a particular award, but if you have those feelings presumably about the MIA don't even look to the SPA and ML.
Flawed from conception, unless your goal is to make money and more jobs-for-the-boys from all those deluded saps who fall for the idea.
> I would raise concerns about the current state of climbing instruction...
I myself cannot really get worked up about the grade for a particular award, but if you have those feelings presumably about the MIA don't even look to the SPA and ML.
Flawed from conception, unless your goal is to make money and more jobs-for-the-boys from all those deluded saps who fall for the idea.
In reply to suzy_lu: "The highest level instructors only have to climb VS "
Dont see why thats an issue?
You cant compare say the long climb with long tall sally or 3PS.
Its all about experience. how many people climb harder than VS mountain routes and would need instructing?
People who need instructing learn the basics on Diffs/Vdiffs/severes IMO.
And i dont see how you can equate F with adjective grades, shouldnt really be a major concern.
Dont see why thats an issue?
You cant compare say the long climb with long tall sally or 3PS.
Its all about experience. how many people climb harder than VS mountain routes and would need instructing?
People who need instructing learn the basics on Diffs/Vdiffs/severes IMO.
And i dont see how you can equate F with adjective grades, shouldnt really be a major concern.
In reply to ste2: Yes but whats that got to do with grades?
If a climber is competently leading the big mountain VS's then they are experienced enough. I cant comment on other areas but just dont see how grade you climb, equates to coaching, instructing ability.
Look at football, how many great players cant manage, and how many average players made great managers.
If a climber is competently leading the big mountain VS's then they are experienced enough. I cant comment on other areas but just dont see how grade you climb, equates to coaching, instructing ability.
Look at football, how many great players cant manage, and how many average players made great managers.
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
I agree with you about the grades Iain.
I think there is always some generally some confusion between, supervising, performance coaching, instructing and guideing.
We could discuss the reletive merits(or lack of) of each the above facet of 'instructing' but thats probably a tad off thread.
I agree with you about the grades Iain.
I think there is always some generally some confusion between, supervising, performance coaching, instructing and guideing.
We could discuss the reletive merits(or lack of) of each the above facet of 'instructing' but thats probably a tad off thread.
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
I don't know anything about football, but it seems to me that to coach a football team (I'm not sure if this is the same thing as manage - I presume so) you would have to have a fair idea about football and be pretty good.
To teach it, you should have to be pretty good, right?
(Not kids etc, at the highest level)
So I guess I was saying why isn't that the same in climbing? I do karate. My teacher is a black belt. If I turned up to a class and my teacher was a yellow belt it would be a joke. Even though I am only a white belt. Right? According to your logic he would only have to be one grade better to teach me as long as he was a good teacher. Rubbish!!
> Look at football, how many great players cant manage, and how many average players made great managers.
I don't know anything about football, but it seems to me that to coach a football team (I'm not sure if this is the same thing as manage - I presume so) you would have to have a fair idea about football and be pretty good.
To teach it, you should have to be pretty good, right?
(Not kids etc, at the highest level)
So I guess I was saying why isn't that the same in climbing? I do karate. My teacher is a black belt. If I turned up to a class and my teacher was a yellow belt it would be a joke. Even though I am only a white belt. Right? According to your logic he would only have to be one grade better to teach me as long as he was a good teacher. Rubbish!!
In reply to Iain Ridgway: because sometimes the guide may have to solo down to help the client, a FR7a leader is better able to do this on a route of VS than a guide who is a steady VS leader.
In reply to ste2: well I cant say too much as Ive never climbed with an instructor, or considered it myself. But if I wanted instruction Id want to learn mainly about gear placements and ropework, and other security issues. I'd improve my climbing in my own time once I was safe on the crag. Anyway it is getting off thread sorry.
Cheers
Cheers
In reply to Jon Greengrass: When? Id of thought going off solo, potentially risking leaving a client novice on a crag on their own was a big no no. but as I said havent an experience here so correct me if wrong.
Susy. no, a good football coach is often very interlectual and a boring fanatic of videos.
Susy. no, a good football coach is often very interlectual and a boring fanatic of videos.
In reply to Iain Ridgway: Fair enough! Sounds like my dad (except the intellectual bit).
I think I would also bring up the bolting thing in Yorkshire/general at the meetings (trying to get it back on thread!).
Lets get that guy Mick Ryan to come over and kick ass!
I think I would also bring up the bolting thing in Yorkshire/general at the meetings (trying to get it back on thread!).
Lets get that guy Mick Ryan to come over and kick ass!
In reply to suzy_lu:
"To teach it, you should have to be pretty good, right?
(Not kids etc, at the highest level) "
well no, howard wilkinson who has managed England, the highest possible level, was a PE teacher who progressed.
Re levels, look at schools and universities, often the best teachers, lecturers arent the shit hot researches, but the guys whose bright enough but still in touch with the novice so sees the problems. A bit of a generalisation but its still true.
Re Karate, I think your mixing up two different sports. Your Karate instructor is teaching you skills, so to do that its best hes skillful, but IMO a climbing instructor deals more with safety points, and not so much climbing techniques. Ok basics are covered, laybacking, jamming etc, which a VS leader will do.
"To teach it, you should have to be pretty good, right?
(Not kids etc, at the highest level) "
well no, howard wilkinson who has managed England, the highest possible level, was a PE teacher who progressed.
Re levels, look at schools and universities, often the best teachers, lecturers arent the shit hot researches, but the guys whose bright enough but still in touch with the novice so sees the problems. A bit of a generalisation but its still true.
Re Karate, I think your mixing up two different sports. Your Karate instructor is teaching you skills, so to do that its best hes skillful, but IMO a climbing instructor deals more with safety points, and not so much climbing techniques. Ok basics are covered, laybacking, jamming etc, which a VS leader will do.
In reply to Iain Ridgway: As Ive never been near a climbing instructor I could be talking shite there BTW, just what Ive understood.
In reply to Iain Ridgway: Agreed, probably best to call out the local MRT on his mobile phone.
In reply to Iain Ridgway: I suppose it depends on what you want to be taught. Maybe that is why the French system is higher (grades wise), because as the rock is bolted there is less safety stuff to learn?
But (holds her breath waiting for the abuse to flow!) I would feel happier with someone who has obviously put in the hours on the crag (proven by their experience and backed up by their ability to lead hard routes) showing me stuff than with an MIA who is too busy being interested in whether I'm using 4 or 5 turns on my prussik because the guy/girl who assessed him/her at GlemoreBrennin said that... etc. and he doesn't really know himself because he has only been climbing for 2 years and done 50 VS's (which could be done in a week if you really tried hard).
I hope that makes sense?
But (holds her breath waiting for the abuse to flow!) I would feel happier with someone who has obviously put in the hours on the crag (proven by their experience and backed up by their ability to lead hard routes) showing me stuff than with an MIA who is too busy being interested in whether I'm using 4 or 5 turns on my prussik because the guy/girl who assessed him/her at GlemoreBrennin said that... etc. and he doesn't really know himself because he has only been climbing for 2 years and done 50 VS's (which could be done in a week if you really tried hard).
I hope that makes sense?
In reply to suzy_lu: Understand what your saying, but I guess its down to why we climb, I just want to be safe, and have now real desire to climb hard routes so arent bothered about improving technically, if I did maybe my view would differ.
Cheers
Cheers
In reply to Iain Ridgway: Well I'mmore than happy to agree to disagree Iain. I don't care that much anyway. Maybe see you at one of the debates? The skipton one is the nearest to me.
In reply to suzy_lu: Yeah should get more active, Im very much a sleeping member of the BMC.
heading down your way tommorow, is the weather good down there? may get an afternoon bouldering in on yorkshire grit.
Cheers
heading down your way tommorow, is the weather good down there? may get an afternoon bouldering in on yorkshire grit.
Cheers
In reply to Iain Ridgway: The weather is fantastic. Not seen a forecast for tomorrow though. I'd love to join you, but the desk beckons (not that you invited me like!). I really do hate working - it's not the job, just any job!
In reply to suzy_lu: Pity, free to join me, I have to work in Dorest next week so taking a few days of for a liesurely drive. a weekend on grit either side should break up the travelling.
In reply to es:
I personally don't think they, or anyone, can actually enforce policy but they can try.
They have as much access to the climbing media as most and could do a better job, in my view, for making the case for agreed policies being adhered to.
> (In reply to GrahamD) So are you going to say if you think they should be or should not?
I personally don't think they, or anyone, can actually enforce policy but they can try.
They have as much access to the climbing media as most and could do a better job, in my view, for making the case for agreed policies being adhered to.
In reply to 2Pumped:
I think is the area where I'd be most interested to see some activity frm the BMC. Increasing numbers of climbers are being introduced to climbing through climbing walls. By their very nature, these are artificial environments, and things are done differently there to way they're done on rock. The transition from wall to crag is not straightforward for some people, and the ways to behave and treat the rock and environment may not necessarily be common sense.
It's a shame that so many climbers don't appear to have very much respect for their environment (witness the litter common at many crags and the need for clean-ups), and I can't help but think that some of this is down the fact that some climbers think they can treat the crag in same way as they treat their local wall, where artificial is okay - chipping and wire-brushes - and that the only difference between the wall and the crag is that there isn't a ceiling over the crag.
Ultimately, poor behaviour on the part of climbers is going to have an adverse effect on access. BMC access officers do (as far as I can tell) a good job in negotiating access, but I'm sure they'd have an easier job if they didn't have to apologise for errant climbers abusing the environment.
> (In reply to es)
>
> Educating people in the history, traditions and ethics of british climbing.
>
> If you don't learn to climb with 'dad' or your mates already know these things, how do you learn what's accepted practice etc.
> If you learned at the wall and then went outside - how would you have a clue as to what's accepted or not? Could lead to chipping and lack of respect for both the environment and rock.
>
> Educating people in the history, traditions and ethics of british climbing.
>
> If you don't learn to climb with 'dad' or your mates already know these things, how do you learn what's accepted practice etc.
> If you learned at the wall and then went outside - how would you have a clue as to what's accepted or not? Could lead to chipping and lack of respect for both the environment and rock.
I think is the area where I'd be most interested to see some activity frm the BMC. Increasing numbers of climbers are being introduced to climbing through climbing walls. By their very nature, these are artificial environments, and things are done differently there to way they're done on rock. The transition from wall to crag is not straightforward for some people, and the ways to behave and treat the rock and environment may not necessarily be common sense.
It's a shame that so many climbers don't appear to have very much respect for their environment (witness the litter common at many crags and the need for clean-ups), and I can't help but think that some of this is down the fact that some climbers think they can treat the crag in same way as they treat their local wall, where artificial is okay - chipping and wire-brushes - and that the only difference between the wall and the crag is that there isn't a ceiling over the crag.
Ultimately, poor behaviour on the part of climbers is going to have an adverse effect on access. BMC access officers do (as far as I can tell) a good job in negotiating access, but I'm sure they'd have an easier job if they didn't have to apologise for errant climbers abusing the environment.
In reply to ste2:
The one time I rang the BMC to ask about access to a fairly obscure crag with "no climbing" signs, they knew exactly what was going on. Despite my natural cynicism, I was quite impressed.
> Try getting any kind of response (from the BMC) to a core priority issue, say, on access and conservation.
The one time I rang the BMC to ask about access to a fairly obscure crag with "no climbing" signs, they knew exactly what was going on. Despite my natural cynicism, I was quite impressed.
In reply to es:
I agree with your comments on the environmental impact of climbers and walkers. The BMC statement at the start of this thread seems to be all take and no give. The pretty rapid destruction of the natural resource, particularly in many bouldering areas, seems to be frquently overlooked, yet the environmental card has often been played (dubiously I would say) by the climbing lobby in the past.
Too many climbers ignore the problems of litter, rock destruction and loss of vegetation and this to me is more important than the state of a few bolts.
I agree with your comments on the environmental impact of climbers and walkers. The BMC statement at the start of this thread seems to be all take and no give. The pretty rapid destruction of the natural resource, particularly in many bouldering areas, seems to be frquently overlooked, yet the environmental card has often been played (dubiously I would say) by the climbing lobby in the past.
Too many climbers ignore the problems of litter, rock destruction and loss of vegetation and this to me is more important than the state of a few bolts.
In reply to es:
I'm fascinated by this destruction of the crags scenario. I've just moved to Yorkshire after being away (north wales and the south west) for 20 years and it's been really interesting visiting old haunts again. Almscliff, Hepptonstall and West Vale all appear to have more grass at their bases and were all litter free.
In the south west many crags actually need more traffic.
At places like Wintours Leap trees need clearing from the base of the crag and fixed gear desperately needs renewing. I dread to think how safe the old 8mm and hand placed 10mm bolts on the slate are!
Oh yea, was in the Pass on Whit Bank holiday, glorious sunny afternoon and no-one on the Cromlech, two parties on the Wassted and one on the Mot.
Are we talking facts? Or urban myths? The same could be said about instructing, I can't think of a guide I've meant who didn't have climbing written through his or her sole. Yea the MIA standard is VS and I think it should be higher but it ain't a big issue. To be a good climber you don't have to climb hard routes. I've seen some awful instructing by climbers who mostly operate on the high grades ( and some brilliant work too)
Remember Don Whillans definition of a good mountaineer was " a live one" A bit flippant but you know where he was coming from.
Think I'll go to the Skipton debate.
Cheers
I'm fascinated by this destruction of the crags scenario. I've just moved to Yorkshire after being away (north wales and the south west) for 20 years and it's been really interesting visiting old haunts again. Almscliff, Hepptonstall and West Vale all appear to have more grass at their bases and were all litter free.
In the south west many crags actually need more traffic.
At places like Wintours Leap trees need clearing from the base of the crag and fixed gear desperately needs renewing. I dread to think how safe the old 8mm and hand placed 10mm bolts on the slate are!
Oh yea, was in the Pass on Whit Bank holiday, glorious sunny afternoon and no-one on the Cromlech, two parties on the Wassted and one on the Mot.
Are we talking facts? Or urban myths? The same could be said about instructing, I can't think of a guide I've meant who didn't have climbing written through his or her sole. Yea the MIA standard is VS and I think it should be higher but it ain't a big issue. To be a good climber you don't have to climb hard routes. I've seen some awful instructing by climbers who mostly operate on the high grades ( and some brilliant work too)
Remember Don Whillans definition of a good mountaineer was " a live one" A bit flippant but you know where he was coming from.
Think I'll go to the Skipton debate.
Cheers
In reply to suzy_lu:
While I agree that greater technical ability will (sometimes) lead to greater safety all round, it has to be said that the French system is regularly lambasted for placing too much emphasis on individual performance and not enough on people skills and the ability to teach. To illustrate this, I have a Franco-Swiss friend who is an aspirant guide in Switzerland. He can easily climb 7a+, but has shunned the French system in favour of the Swiss system (which has a lower leading grade requirement) because the French system is quite infamous for turning out technical superbeings who have trouble meeting the needs of their (usually far less skilled) clientele.
While I agree that greater technical ability will (sometimes) lead to greater safety all round, it has to be said that the French system is regularly lambasted for placing too much emphasis on individual performance and not enough on people skills and the ability to teach. To illustrate this, I have a Franco-Swiss friend who is an aspirant guide in Switzerland. He can easily climb 7a+, but has shunned the French system in favour of the Swiss system (which has a lower leading grade requirement) because the French system is quite infamous for turning out technical superbeings who have trouble meeting the needs of their (usually far less skilled) clientele.
In reply to suzy_lu:
I challenge you to find an MIA-holder who fits this description. You may be thinking of SPA-holders (in which case I'd agree with you - such cases do exist!).
>and done 50 VS's (which could be done in a week if you really tried hard).
The MIA requirements are a) a MINIMUM grade of VS4c (most MIA people I know have an awful lot of E-numbers on their log book) b) CLIMBS MUST BE MULTI-PITCH. Also there is a lot of scrutiny put into filtering out those who have done all their 'multi-pitch' climbing on Tremadog or Wildcat. e.g. Great Slab on Cloggy is considered to be a 'quality' VS for the purposes of MIA.
If you can do 50 mountain routes of VS+ in a week... you are ultra-lucky with the British weather - care to come climbing with me? I seem to attract the rain!!!
> But (holds her breath waiting for the abuse to flow!) I would feel happier with someone who has obviously put in the hours on the crag (proven by their experience and backed up by their ability to lead hard routes) showing me stuff than with an MIA who is too busy being interested in whether I'm using 4 or 5 turns on my prussik because the guy/girl who assessed him/her at GlemoreBrennin said that... etc. and he doesn't really know himself because he has only been climbing for 2 years
I challenge you to find an MIA-holder who fits this description. You may be thinking of SPA-holders (in which case I'd agree with you - such cases do exist!).
>and done 50 VS's (which could be done in a week if you really tried hard).
The MIA requirements are a) a MINIMUM grade of VS4c (most MIA people I know have an awful lot of E-numbers on their log book) b) CLIMBS MUST BE MULTI-PITCH. Also there is a lot of scrutiny put into filtering out those who have done all their 'multi-pitch' climbing on Tremadog or Wildcat. e.g. Great Slab on Cloggy is considered to be a 'quality' VS for the purposes of MIA.
If you can do 50 mountain routes of VS+ in a week... you are ultra-lucky with the British weather - care to come climbing with me? I seem to attract the rain!!!
In reply to Tom Chamberlain:
I do like your profile pic though!
> (In reply to suzy_lu)
> [...]
>
> I challenge you to find an MIA-holder who fits this description.
I know many, do you want me to email you their telephone numbers so you can phone them up?
> [...]
>
> I challenge you to find an MIA-holder who fits this description.
> The MIA requirements are a) a MINIMUM grade of VS4c (most MIA people I know have an awful lot of E-numbers on their log book
I know several that don't.
> If you can do 50 mountain routes of VS+ in a week... you are ultra-lucky with the British weather - care to come climbing with me? I seem to attract the rain!!!
I would say it would be a good week, but definitely possible. I don't want to climb with you if you attract the rain!
I do like your profile pic though!
In reply to suzy_lu:
>I don't want to climb with you if you attract the rain!
Why thank you - as you see, the sun does shine on me sometimes (usually when I'm suited-up at a wedding with no rock in sight....
If these inexperienced and under-performing instructors really exist, then clearly the accreditation system in the UK is faulty. But generally British instructors and guides have a very good record.
>I don't want to climb with you if you attract the rain!
>
> I do like your profile pic though!
> I do like your profile pic though!
Why thank you - as you see, the sun does shine on me sometimes (usually when I'm suited-up at a wedding with no rock in sight....
If these inexperienced and under-performing instructors really exist, then clearly the accreditation system in the UK is faulty. But generally British instructors and guides have a very good record.
In reply to suzy_lu: It's a pretty common debate. As far as I see it there are several problems with the current system.
We currently don't have any qualified climbing instructors or more specifically climbing coachs in the UK - what we have are Mountaineering Instructors or Guides. Different things.
MIAs are perfectly competent and qualified to instruct general mountain walking skills (navigation/confidence roping, campcraft etc.), general climbing skills (lead climbing, multi-pitch techniques, self rescue skills) and deliver basic training/assessment (WGL, ML, SPA).
Guides on the otherhand are trained and assessed on their ability to take you out climbing and mountaineering safely on challenging routes.
Neither qualification can claim to make the holder a good climbing instructor and specifically a good climbing coach.
There is definately a big gap and we could certainly do with a tiered qualification for coaching climbing at the very least. i.e basic coach f6c, intermediate coach f7a+, advanced coach f7c. This could also be tied in with some formal route setting qualifications.
As a matter of fact I know that someone is thinking about trying to set up some sort of adhoc instructing qualifaction at around the f7a level (for slightly differing but related reasons).
However, as a counterpoint to this, the Forces currently have an adaquate climbing instructor qualification for which the minimum climbing standard is Severe. It works extremely well because the concept is that the instructors (several days/weekends/weeks a year) are able to take 2 novices out on a classic multi-pitch VDiff and give them a safe and enjoyable introduction to trad multi-pitch climbing. They are also able to teach the basic theory of lead climbing. This works becasue there are then advanced courses (delivered by MIAs) for people to go on if they choose to continue with the sport (most don't but are really glad to have had the chance to try it).
M
PS I'm still trying to creatively account for 5 more days of hillwalking in charge of groups so I can go and do my MIA training.
We currently don't have any qualified climbing instructors or more specifically climbing coachs in the UK - what we have are Mountaineering Instructors or Guides. Different things.
MIAs are perfectly competent and qualified to instruct general mountain walking skills (navigation/confidence roping, campcraft etc.), general climbing skills (lead climbing, multi-pitch techniques, self rescue skills) and deliver basic training/assessment (WGL, ML, SPA).
Guides on the otherhand are trained and assessed on their ability to take you out climbing and mountaineering safely on challenging routes.
Neither qualification can claim to make the holder a good climbing instructor and specifically a good climbing coach.
There is definately a big gap and we could certainly do with a tiered qualification for coaching climbing at the very least. i.e basic coach f6c, intermediate coach f7a+, advanced coach f7c. This could also be tied in with some formal route setting qualifications.
As a matter of fact I know that someone is thinking about trying to set up some sort of adhoc instructing qualifaction at around the f7a level (for slightly differing but related reasons).
However, as a counterpoint to this, the Forces currently have an adaquate climbing instructor qualification for which the minimum climbing standard is Severe. It works extremely well because the concept is that the instructors (several days/weekends/weeks a year) are able to take 2 novices out on a classic multi-pitch VDiff and give them a safe and enjoyable introduction to trad multi-pitch climbing. They are also able to teach the basic theory of lead climbing. This works becasue there are then advanced courses (delivered by MIAs) for people to go on if they choose to continue with the sport (most don't but are really glad to have had the chance to try it).
M
PS I'm still trying to creatively account for 5 more days of hillwalking in charge of groups so I can go and do my MIA training.
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