UKC

Whats the story? Apparently big meat eaters will have more reserves of this stuff in the muscles. and it helps with power? Gresham spoke of taking this as a supplement though.
As a veggie,im no meat eater so where do I get this naturally? is this why Im a weak assed weakling when it comes to strenuous boulder moves...? or is it just coz im sh8.Im not up for taking supplements and to be honest, I dont feel I need to as I climb at low level, just wondered if Im missing out on it naturally as Im a veg.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:

It occurs naturally in tubs in Holland and Barrett.

And yes, you're weak because you're veggy.

In reply to Barry Chocolate: It's made in your liver. This supply is normally enough for day to day use, but not normally high level athletic stuff. It's only found in meat + fish, so you'll have to take supplements if you want to add it to your diet.

In reply to Barry Chocolate: It's excreted in the urine as a toxin.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:


As a vegetarian you can make enough creatine in your liver to get by, meat eaters do get some from their food. You can get vegetarian creatine if you want to take it as a supplement.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:

just wondered if Im missing out on it naturally as Im a veg

yes you are I'm afraid.

to quote my ex veggie girl friend on having her first bacon sandwich in 20 years.

'never new veggie food was so bland'

see you will turn to the dark side.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:

quite a few threads on this recently just search under creatine.

Not that great for climbers due to the water retaining/pumping out effects. I think Horst recommends taking it in small doses - about 5 grams a day.

In reply to balti boy:

Same happen to me, but the opposite way. Once I tasted the amazing flavours of good vegetarian cooking, most of meat dishes taste the same to me now.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:
If you are a training monster, and dieting, its the dogs.
Granted, it can give you the squits for a day or two, and their is a slight water retention issue, but the gains in power endurance were phenomenal; therefore the weight thing doesnt come into it.

The average levels in a supplementation course are the equivalent to eating 6 cans of tuna a day, so even the most ardent carnivore would be hard pushed to take that on board.

I could do 2 1 armers before, then 7 after 4 weeks on it (yeah, its a boast), so any reservations regarding placebo effects were null and void.

Careful with those tendons, mind; train solid on it for 6 weeks at least, before you start doing stoopid things.

Er, this is only my view of it all...

In reply to Ste Brom:

What brand did u use? Powder or serum?

This thread was started in the wrong forum and has now been moved.
Please could you try and post in the correct forum, it makes life easier for both users and moderators.

Forum descriptions - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/forums.html

In reply to ramon marin martinez: powder, about 1996; it was the Hi5 stuff initially, then some brand from muscle and fitness (didnt buy it for the pics onest).
Was training like a beast then...
halcyon days...

In reply to Ste Brom: Of course you had renal tests before you started taking creatine to make sure it wouldn't fook you up.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:

Well worth you getting hold of this publication which has the latest findings from resources around the world:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/prewp/pphome-creatine.html

Pete

In reply to Barry Chocolate:
Vegetarians generally have less intramuscular creatine than omnivores because creatine is found only in muscle meat (providing an omnivore with about 1 g creatine per day), while the body itself produces a similar amount. Ironically, vegetarians may therefore derive greater benefit than omnivores from supplementation with creatine, but the benefit would presumably only make up for any lower level of performance in vegetarians before supplementation.

http://sportsci.org/jour/0201/cf-e.htm

if water retention is an issue creatine serum is better.

creatine does make you strong (short term) great for climbing also found it good for cycling

Phil

In reply to lost1977:

Creatine is a store of energy (actually creatine phosophate I think). It is a TEMPORY store that acts as a buffer between the ATP intracellarly available and the upregulation of aerobic respiration. If you train you tend to encourage an increase in cellular deposits (in muscle) and increase the amount of glucosose stored as a dimer (forgot its name). For most people, creatine is not going to be in deficit unless you are a top marathon runner - but probably not even then.

You could also try colostrum if you want to try such things...

Try caffine for long routes - it works for marathon runners.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:

Used to take it. It is good for training. Found myself being able to push myself harder for longer. However, not sure it's worth doing long term damage to kidnies and other internal organs.My pee used to really stink after taking it and used to find that my heart used to really pound shortly after ingestion. Made me really up for doing pull ups etc, but not good for blood pressure probably. Also used to make me incredibly moody, especially if I didn't knacker myself out after taking it - almost like you have to work it out of your system.

If you are going to take it - it definitely DID work in my case - take it in short concentrated bursts (2-3 weeks max) then stop and give yourself a complete break from it. Good luck.

In reply to lorentz: I think this topic has been done to death numerous times, try using the search function. I for one didnt rate it for climbing, I was training hard and found no major gains, however using a protein recovery shake has helped me majorly. Try it, (probs best in serum form) and if it doesnt work, stop and try something else.

In reply to GraemeA at home:
Of course I didnt.

Its a chance you take, in about as much as 'I've never eaten peanuts. Should I consult the quack?'.

There isnt any evidence, other than anecdotal, to suggest it causes what has already been mentioned.

i.e. water retention, squits. Its when you start taking dieuretics in combination, when your on a shitty slope.

Didn't find it translated directly into useful gains for climbing. However, it was useful over a period of weight training. Using it along with protein shakes helped me put on quite a few pounds of muscle. Over a six-nine month period I went from 10 stone 4 pounds to my current weight of 11 stone 5 pounds (height is 5'11), with not much gains in body fat.

Now I don't use it because I'm training more specifically for climbing. I think it was worth it though - I was too skinny before. Hopefully should improve my climbing/general strength in the long run.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:
Your body makes plenty of it. It can be measured by your doctor. I have seen athletes who are taking it and their blood levels are about 100 times that of normal. It doesnt take a genius to work out that that isn't good. The problem with your urine is because your kidneys are doing their best to get rid of the rubbish you dump on them.
Another problem is that your muscles release more when you over-exercise by doing things such as weight training.

Your body is a very complicated piece of kit and the most expensive one you will ever own, it is wise not to fill it with the wrong fuel.

In reply to Ste Brom:

Interesting comments, how much were you taking a day?

In reply to Paul B: I tried using the search function for creatine. Nothing.

In reply to bucski: cant remember, but 4 times a day as i recall. excess gets flushed out, so there is only so much you can take.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=0&na...

In reply to Swig:

http://www.discusscooking.com/attachments/gallery/2/8/1/3/72101676549_thumb...

In reply to Swig: Did you just type in 'creatine' to the search? I get nothing back from that!!

In reply to Barry Chocolate:

I went to search (top right of banner), chose "Search Forums" from there and then put "Creatine" into the "Message Text" box. The on;y that comes up if you do Find by Topic is this one.

In reply to Swig:

Oops, that should read "the only one that..."

In reply to Paul B:

Well Paul. If you think the topics been done to death, why not FO and read another one? Just a suggestion...

In reply to Barry Chocolate: I wonder if the mods would take an article on creatine supplementation???

In reply to lorentz: a lot of the info that ppl ask for is already out there just do a search, this topics seems to spring up every week, maybe it needs a FAQ kind of article? UKB did one but its been stripped for now.

In reply to Paul B: yeah, but most of the advice is laughable, esp the old recurring chestnut of renal failure.


Definitely a laymans article to CM use is in order, thereby saving precious, er, bandwidth (?)

In reply to Barry Chocolate: Creatine, is used in about the first 5 seconds when doing something, so explosive power, so it is good for sprinters, and weight lifter, so i guess if you were trying to get better at dynos, then that would be the only real use for creatine in climbing, it will make you stronger. BUT only if you use it for more than 6 months, as some say that the only reason for your muscles looking bigger is due to your muscles taking in more water, but after about 6 months this can not be the only reason.

In reply to mac_climb:

"...it will make you stronger. BUT only if you use it for more than 6 months"

I'm afraid I must disagree. I've used creatine successfully several times and the effects of creatine can be seen fairly quicky, especially after a 5 day loading period.

Indeed, I've never heard of anyone suggestng a 6 month time period before. I'd be interested to see the source of your 6 month stat, especially if it's actually true, as otherwise, I've been wasting my time and money!

I started using it and had amazing results for power endurance. I did however complete a loading phase initially which i now gather is not a great idea because of the water/weight gain. Does anyone have any idea how long it would take for this to wear off?

Also I have been using cell-tech. Has anyone done any other experimentation with brands to find out what works best?

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Co-Q10 (Ubiquinone 10) is an important antioxidant found in every cell of the body and is especially concentrated in heart tissue. It functions in the electron transport chain for the production of cellular energy. Creatine is synthesized in the liver and stored in muscles, including the heart. Creatine is converted to creatine phosphate which donates energy for the synthesis of ATP - the universal currency of energy. The heart requires ATP for muscular contractions, necessary for pumping blood throughout the cardiovascular system. The taste of Chewable Q-60 + Creatine is enhanced by Xylitol and Lo Han Kuo extract. Both are natural sweeteners providing a pleasant taste and are very low in calories. Xylitol helps promote dental health, Lo Han Kuo is a new, exceptionally low-calorie, natural plant sweetener from China’s pristine southern mountain area. Sugar free. No fructose.

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Creatine is synthesized in the liver from the amino acids arginine and glycine and stored in the major skeletal muscles including the heart. Once inside the muscle, it is phosphorylated to form creatine phosphate which is a high energy substrate that assists in the contraction of the myofibrils (muscle fibers). Creatine phosphate is utilized to maintain higher levels of ATP during exercise. Creatine phosphate maximizes physical performance and reduces exercise fatigue by absorbing hydrogen ions released by muscles as lactic acid. Intense anaerobic exercise, such as weight lifting and sprinting, depletes ATP and greatly increases the demand for creatine.

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In reply to Barry Chocolate:
As long as your watching your protein intake should'nt make any difference being a vegy. Creatine suppliments just increase the water retention in your muscles making them look bigger the majority of strength gains are from a placebo effect and increased training. Natural creatine occuring in the muscles tends to be genetic.
Its all Hype surrounding creatine, unless your a muscle mary and want muscle definiton for bodybuilding competitions you dont need it.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:

Creatine only has about half a million articles on the web about it. And a couple of hundred controlled studies. Read a couple.

In reply to Barry Chocolate:

As in any sport, if you want to achieve high performance, being veggy is not an option.