UKC

Just started to attempt climbing 6bs which I find require more upper body strength when smearing and more thigh power when have to balance on one leg from crouched to straight up in order to reach next handhold etc.

It got me to wandering how do setters know what kind of routes to set for any particular grade i.e. is there a reference guide detailing various moves and what grade bracket they fall within?

Would like to know if there is a way of gleaming information as to what manoeuvres I need to learn in order to climb 6bs and 6cs etc.

I assume there has to be some refence point to ensure some consistency across the various walls.

In reply to worthy1: In most cases the route setters will have probably climbed anything from 1000 to 10,000 sport routes indoor and outside so they generally just use their wealth of experience to grade the routes against everything else they have climbed.

The ultimate point of reference is always well known (i.e. 3 star) rock routes at both UK and overseas crags.

In reply to worthy1:


I very much doubt it! But competitions may do something?

In reply to worthy1:

I've always wondered how you go about setting a route in general, I mean, do you just throw a few holds at the wall, try it out and see what sticks?

In reply to RyMole:

Every setter has a different way of doing things, before I start setting I think hard about the following things in no specific order:

- How much space do I have to work with?
- What natural features/volumes are present?
- What grade am I aiming for?
- General 'style' e.g. balancey/techy or sustained pump fest
- Size/type of holds
- Specific sequences I might have in mind

Sometimes I may have a specific sequence in my head based around an obvious featyre (e.g. overhang) and everything else fits in around that but most often I start setting from the ground up and work my way up one move/sequence after another. Once finished I'll test/adjust it once or twice myself and have a couple more people test to confirm the grade.

Hope that helps!

In reply to worthy1: I've set boulder problems at my local wall, and while I am usually left the dregs of the holds, the setting for me seems to be a case of putting the holds on by hand, without screwing them on, and then moving them round to find what positions feel good, what seems to flow nicely. That said, setting a route would require much more thought than setting a boulder problem on a featureless, overhanging wall.

Also, as somebody else said, grades are usually just measured against the route-setters previous experience. For example, the hardest problem I've set was probably about a 7a+/7b. I haven't climbed enough to know for sure, but it was harder than a classic 7a I've done outdoors. But of course, I couldn't grade the problem until I could climb it, which unfortunately took me some time.

In reply to worthy1:

Styx - that does help, thanks. It's interesting to know what kind of thoughts go into routesetting - you can appreciate the routes more.

Madden - it's also interesting to know that some routes are set which the setter themselves can't do! Makes me feel better.

In reply to RyMole: If a setter was setting for themself alone, they'd probably be setting almost entirely routes they couldn't do, at least not quickly (a few sessions/weeks of sessions).

In reply to RyMole:

I route set on my wall on a weekly basis and there are a number of different ways. for example on a top rope or lead wall I set from the top down as this is quickest I then test them all at the end tweak as appropriate. on boulder though I set as I go along.

Usually I look at the space and features then set and try to use them as bast I can and try to pick the holds that will give me the most. though a usual rule for me if i think something is hard try something a bit harder as it makes it that little bit more interesting.

If you are interested in it the CWMA actually run route setting course. though if you chat to any pro setters they all have slightly different variations.

In reply to worthy1: So, could a setter that has never climbed an 8a, actually set one? I can't imagine all route setters are superstar climbers, then again, I may be wrong.

In reply to RyMole: I wouldn't call myself a route setter as such. My job title is 'Casual Bouldering Instructor'... Take from that what you will. Basically, I was thrown the nasty holds that they couldn't find places for on the moon board, and told I could do what I liked with them. I set 1 problem that took me about 3/4 months to complete (the 7a+[probably]), and set a link into it from the right hand side, that adds another grade with a heinously difficult hand cross-through and crazy sideways leap to a (relative) jug.

I could by no means call myself an experienced routesetter.

In reply to poeticshambles: Probably, accidentally. Although there's every chance it would climb about as well as a horse's arse.

Styx - This is exactly how I set, nice to know I am not the only one.

Rymole - I know at my wall we have the name of the setter on the route sheet along with the grade and any rules. One of the reasons for this is that each setter (generally) has their own style of routes which they like to climb and indeed set.
Many of my routes are delicate technical ones with small holds, I find it very hard to set big powerful routes on slopers (I am a gal btw).
Don't get me wrong, I do try and set other routes, but I am more comfortable with what I know.

The upshot of using different route setters with different abilities/preferences means that the grades aren'e exactly comparable. While I can easily climb a 6c crimp-fest I will struggle on a 6c sloper route. I wouldn't despair if you are finding a particular route (within your grade range) a stretch, maybe just find that setter who sets like you climb.

In reply to Phantom35:


Not any more.

In reply to worthy1: I agree with the above comments and would add that I think that you can most accurately grade routes that are within your own climbing range. Personally, I couldn't set 7B to 8A+ as they all feel desperate to me. Equally, I couldn't reliably set 5A to 5C as they all feel fairly easy.. At our local wall we try to get climbers at all grades to set from time to time in order to keep the grades consistent.

In reply to Madden:


That's not entirely fair. Something that the setter can do in say 2-4 overlapping sections but not link (in a reasonable timeframe anyway) could be a couple of grades beyond their usual level but still climb nicely since they've tried and done all the moves. Ok, it's unlikely to be clever but simple PE lines can still climb well.

jk

In reply to worthy1:

I think the most important thing is that the routes are graded consistently with climbs outside - so an F6b indoors should have moves and an overall difficulty that roughly equates to a F6b route outside.

This is why in my mind it is imperative that a routesetter have good outdoor climbing experience. I really have an issue with people setting routes if they are not outdoor climbers.

Likewise, I really have an issue with routesetters not being able to do the moves on their routes. I don't mind if they can climb the route in say, 2 or 3 overlapping sections (and give it a grade at/above their maximum redpoint level), but if a routesetter can't do the move they shouldn't be setting it, IMO.

I've experienced this a couple of times where the routesetter couldn't tell me how I was supposed to climb his move. Very frustrating.

I also think walls with several routesetters are best - you need a couple of really strong (F8a and up climbers) setting routes from the 7s and up, then you need some low-mid F7s climbers to set the low 7s and F6s.

I think keen trad climbers are best for setting 4s and 5s as I think this is the target audience for these routes.

In reply to Anonymous: I think there's a bit of a myth that you have to be a sh*t hot climber to set good routes... My experience is that people climbing 7's often have little idea how to grade routes in the 5's or even in the low 6's which may explain why many walls just have a 5+ grade....

The most important thing is feedback - by watching fellow climbers try and do your routes. I've been guilty myself of sticking jugs over say a small roof and giving it 5C only for some climbers be unable to do it because of lack of upper body strength etc.. It's easy to assume that big holds = easier climb, you think "why can't you that move - the holds are huge etc"..

I don't think trad qualifies you for setting 4's and 5's either to be honest unless that's the range you're operating in outside...

Climbing sport grades on rock coupled with visits to other walls and feeding that back into your own route grading seems to work best I think...

In reply to jkarran: That's true i suppose. I was looking at it from the point of view of setting a boulder problem, where if you can't do it, there's a chance you can't pull on. Therefore, you won't know how any of the moves feel. I've had it where moves i haven't been able to test (due to height from the ground may i add) when i set them ended up being pretty horrible... Luckily, at the local wall, i'm one of two people who climb the routes i set, as nobody can use the moon board. There are almost no climbers right up in the deepest darkest recesses of the north-east.

In reply to worthy1:

It depends on what wall you go to. I swear one setter at a wall near me just whacks holds on a wall, and guesstimates the grade. (after observing him set... I was gobsmacked) And from what I have climbed of his routes, they tend to vary wildly 5-6c generally being a have a go and see if you can climb it type thing.

Other setters tend to actually think about the routes and make them logical and intelligent- or at least give you some kind of puzzle to work out, one particular setter in London stands out for that.

and I swear for some of the harder problems, they just stick obscenely small holds on the wall, look at it, and then move the holds a bit further apart just to make sure....

In reply to worthy1:

I can think of at least two walls which have a blackboard or book for new routes. The idea is that the first 10 or so people to climb a new route suggest a grade, and the grade the route is eventually given is an average of those suggestions. In fact, it's much like the grade voting system in the logbook on here. It makes sense to me as it allows for people climbing below their grade, people pushing their grade, and people who prefer different styles of routes to all have a go and give an opinion which probably evens things out in the end.

In reply to worthy1:

This is my first year of semi-professional routesetting (in france).
I'd say it depends a lot on the wall. Three different walls in the same area might feel like three different crags, and i think it is positive.

So the most important reference points come from the wall itself i'd say:
-walls lenght, inclination, features
-what holds are available?
-who climbs at this wall? What do they expect? What do they need? What do i want to tell them?

Then, when the job is enough paid not to be an amateur thing, there can be some specific directions.
Eg, the routesetting manager might ask that you set a "commercial 6a" (=ladderish, it's only the holds size and spacing that make it 6a) or a "technical 5c", and will also give general directions such as "our clients don't like dynos. No dynos before 7c" or "always be sure that someone 5 ft tall will reach", etc...