UKC

Just bought some promax, tried some and it doesnt taste too bad. When's the best time to take it after training?

In reply to Chad H:

experiment. you will hear every version and every version contradicted.

one thing that seems common tho is before you sleep, so the hormones that repair your body have a good stock available, and directly after exercise when your system is craving repair material.

there seems to be a big camp saying that after about 45mins of solid activity the body startes requiring protein.

i suppose it depends what youre doing.
youve done well if you like the taste.

In reply to ice.solo: Cheers ice.solo

In reply to Chad H:

the general preferred time to take if the sole aim is to aid recovery would be straight after training. if you plan to continue taking a protein supplement after you finish the promax i would recommend looking at http://www.myprotein.co.uk/ , costs a fraction of what promax does plus if you use my referral code (MP39455) you get 5% off already very good prices

In reply to lost1977: Cheers lost, I'll bear that in mind!!

In reply to Chad H: It's purely personal but I would say when you want to pi$$ good money down the toilet, don't fancy eating proper food or have to much money and need a psychological boost to your training. You can get all the goodies your body needs plus a lot more from normal food. It probably doesn't harm you, as you are unlikely to OD on certain vitamins and minerals unless you drink gallons of it.

In reply to summo:
It's a lot cheaper to buy whey protein than steak. Or chicken breast. Not to mention easier to take to the wall and make in 10seconds with no need to have planned and cooked stuff the day/morning before. Shakes are just damn convenient.
How much have you experimented with trying different supplements after training to see if it improves your recovery times? If you've done a lot of experimenting then say so and people will give your posts due attention. If not then why are you commenting?
I love ukc...

In reply to abarro81: It is obviously cheaper, but having wasted some dosh in my youth, on the like protein shakes, creatine and other junk, but not roids. This was training for a variety for sports.
I am convinced that the benefits are all pyschological, if you feel you have paid money out, or that you will be able to train hard or recover quicker, then you will commit to a regular routine, probably drink less alcohol and train harder in general.
As for steak / chicken etc. as you probably know the body can't store protein so any excess goes to waste, a reasonably sized chicken and salad sandwich has everything you need. It's a while since I got that excited over it, so I'll leave someone else to talk about branched chain amino acids, ATP, ADP etc. There is a science to training, but natural food products has to be the way (not whey!).

In reply to summo:
Psychological or not, I seem to notice some improvement in recovery. Even if it's all psychological/placebo, that's still an effect... I'm sure eating a tuna salad right after training would do the same, but a shake is just so convenient.

In reply to abarro81: you don't have to eat meat to get protein.. you can get enough good quality protein by combining grains and pulses or soya and eggs are good sources of quality protein on there own. milk's not bad either.

if eating cheaply is the goal then protein shakes is not the best option, if you're too lazy to make something then carry on with the shakes.

also that myprotein shop is selling oats in a fancy bag for £2.50, 99p in tescos

In reply to franksnb: Can you explain a better option then? I'd like something to eat/drink after training, bearing in mind it takes me about 45 minutes to get to my fridge from the wall, I don't have time to prepare too much and tuna is expensive. Thanks

Chad, I take a shake immediatly after training, with a banana and some sugar.

In reply to summo:


So what is your opinion on the science which shows faster recovery of muscle glycogen following carbs+protein immediately after exercise, compared to just carbs?

e.g.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12235033?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000...

I agree that you can get what you need from food without supplementation, but recovery drinks are convenient, easier to get down you quickly when you are done training, and as pointed out, probably cheaper than a chicken sandwich.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:


If I knew that I'd be a Professor not a Mr. !

In reply to summo:

So would it be fair to say that you are convinced that the effects of protein/carb recovery drinks are purely psychological if they exist at all, despite a consensus of sport science evidence to the contrary?

In reply to plexiglass_nick: I'm not saying they don't work, but are they that much better than normal healthy food and drink? If your an olympic athlete and you have peaked, perhaps it is worth exploring something that 'may' give you an extra few %, but for most mere mortals, gains can be made much easier and cheaper, through consistant training, healthy diet and sufficient sleep.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

I would say that you are on the button which is why I always have a yummy protein rich meal with some decent carbs, used to do the whole shakes/supplement thing, and TBH after trying both I find that EAA's during, and decent protein heavy meal (with a good amount of carbs also) after training is better.
The problem is...a decent EAA supplement (with say Beta alanine and Citrulline Malate) is not cheap, and I know from experience, that combined with creatine the effects on your power endurance are immense, so I rarely want to take one without the other, and taking both is not cheap..... so at the moment I am refraining from this kind of supplement use right now, due to the ongoing cost.
Obviously shakes can work out cheaper, but they got nothing on EAA's (+BA and CM) and Creatine in my opinion.

In reply to douglas: if you're short on time and can't take food with you then it's got to be the shakes

mind you a boiled egg and a banana/oat/milk smoothy would probably be easy to take with you.

I make my own recovery/hill food bars! big nerd I know, I make a big batch and freeze them.

they contain

banana
apple
dates
oats
cranberry
honey
sunflowers seeds
pumpkin seeds
*other* seeds
other stuff that I've forgotten
small amount of oil

In reply to summo:

I think the argument is that they can be a convenient option for quickly getting a dose of carbs and protein when your body can most efficiently use it to refuel - not as an alternative to actual food, but as better than (say) a 2 hour wait before you get an evening meal.

In reply to summo:

Yes "Consistently good" training, a healthy diet and sufficient sleep will give gains.
But a decent supplement regime can also give you great gains also when combined with the above, i'm guessing you've never tried anything beyond a protein shake Summo otherwise you wouldn't be making such broad sweeping statements.
Have you ever tried Creatine?

In reply to BigJames:

in the past, ie 10-25years ago, when competing I have used various protein stuff, cybergenics, creatine, diabenacozide(spelling? but it was legal!) amongst other vitamin supplements and some plainly stupid (not observed at the time) training programmes. So I can say I believe all the benefits were from getting the basics right and the prime ones being consistency, diet and recovery.

I may be wrong, but I would in hindsight have spent the money on better running shoes, good physios (when needed) and a comfy bed.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

over 2 hours is on or beyond your window of opportunity for energy replacement and your muscles demands for protein, drinks are just an excuse for poor planning!! besides I never discovered a drink that tasted better than an actual snack or meal!

In reply to Chad H:

I used to drink protein shakes when I was weight training. I'd recommend you use a shake for post workout, within 30 mins is ideal (apparently).

Make sure the protein is a fast absorbing one, as they do vary. Milk protein for example is a slow releasing protein which is not what you want after a workout. Fast absortion is key.

Also, make sure you get some carbs in. Post workout is a time where simple carbs are OK, 60% carbs, 40% protein is what I used.

I used to take a creatine shake straight after, wait 20 mins then have a carb/protein shake. For the record, I found the creatine made a real noticable difference to recovery but If I ate a bit later than 30 mins it never effected me as much.

In reply to summo:

What sports did you compete in Summo, I only boulder now, but I did power lifting for years and competed a handful of times, I ask because you mention running shoes, and an endurance runner for instance would see little to no benefit from Creatine due to the type of exercise you would be doing, in fact I would say that Creatine is probably pointless for pretty much all runners except sprinters.

In reply to cha1n:

Cha1n, have you ever tried taking Creatine pre-workout?

I find it much more effective than post-workout, usually 60-90 minutes pre-workout seemed ideal for me.

In reply to franksnb: Might have to try some of those! Thanks.

In reply to BigJames: took the supplements primarily aimed at my upper body gym work and for track work(efforts etc.)towards 200 and 400m, plus ice hockey. But I was also climbing and trying to squeeze in other bits too. Recovery is still important for endurance events, if you have back to back events, not just consecutive marathons like Eddie Izard. But I still believe diet can fix things, it's the way the body evolved, but also it is up to the individual to do as they wish, if the commitment of having spent money on a product motivates you to trainer harder then that is a success.

In reply to BigJames:

No I never tried creatine pre-workout, although the packaging recommended before and after training. I decided that BSN were trying to trick me into taking more than I needed - call me cynical.

Creatine is the only supplement that I've ever physically noticed a real (negative) effect when I haven't taken it after an intense workout. I'd know when I'd forgotten to take it as my muscles would ache for twice the amount of time!

In reply to summo:


exactly my point!

personally I live a 15 minute walk from the climbing wall - but even so, after faffing/chatting/stretching/getting changed at the end of the night, walking home and making a meal, it's often realistically between 1 and 2 hours between actually stopping exercising and eating. If it's a day at the crag, where it might be belaying someone on one last route, stripping gear, packing up, standing around, walking back to the car, driving back to the camp site, making food - it could well be a lot longer.

ok there are options - making evening meals in advance, taking a snack to the wall - but within my current lifestyle, a shake within 10 minutes after climbing followed by a full balanced meal within, say, an hour and a half, for me is convenient and relatively palatable. (though I guess it depends what shake you go for!)

Personally I think it makes a massive difference to the amount of nights I can usefully climb during the week and the quality of the climbing I can get done - for me it is the difference between managing 3 days a week and 4/5 days per week.

I don't doubt there is more than one way to skin a cat and there are other options if you are dead set against recovery drinks - but ultimately, sticking with training comes down to how well you can integrate your it into your day to day life, and convenience is a big part of that.

The bottom line is that a big part of recovery is getting the fuel your muscles need quickly enough after exercise, by whatever means. Exactly how you do it comes down to personal lifestyle and convenience. On these threads many seem to rule out recovery drinks on (imho) fairly spurious grounds, whereas I think it comes down to making individual sensible decisions about how to use them or not, in the context of the rest of your diet.

In reply to douglas: really?!

okay well

the mixture is(and its still a work in progress):

2 bananas
(still a bit green on the ends, black ones are too ripe too much sugar)
4 large dates
a good handful of dried apple rings
same amount of soreen (yes soreen)
spoon of oil
one or two spoon of honey to taste
pinch of salt

blend the crap outta that stuff till its like wall paper paste

after blending

add loads of oats (so its about 60/40 oats to squidy stuff)

handfuls of seeds and cranberrys to taste, don't be shy with the seeds.

bake on grease proof paper in a tin/tray of some description 180 for 15 minutes or so(ive never timed it). don't burn it, dark flakes at the edges are okay.

when it cools it will be a bit floppy but that's okay. chop in to bars and chuck in the freezer(separate with grease proof paper). they will defrost in the time it takes you to get to the climbing wall/crag/hill.

eat a meal when you get home

In reply to plexiglass_nick: > (In reply to summo)

Personally, unless you are operating at your very limited all day long, then a day cragging and protein shakes don't really go together. Sandwiches and a flask of tea

In reply to plexiglass_nick:


I agree with sumo on this I have yet to see any evidence that consuming protein imediatly after exercise is anything other than a body builders myth. The study you quote there certainly doesn't show it and can't show it, the study design doesn't even attempt it. As far as I know the only studies on final destination (e.g. spin label some aa's and trace the labels using NMR imaging) show that there is a very large degree of turnover and as a consequence timing has little or no effect on destination. That is the protein in your shake and in the meal you have 2 hours later will end up in the same places in the same ratios. So as long as you are adequatly fed (i.e. your aa stores are not depleated) eating post exercise won't increase the degree of recovery 24 hours or more later.

Also remember food takes time to be digested. Even the aa's in the whey protein in your shake will take an hour or two to be absorbed and become availible.

In reply to davidwright:


I think thats probably what makes EAA's so much better, they probably get into your system a lot faster, helping to keep the amino acid levels in your blood topped up at their optimum levels.
Oh and the decent amount of BCAA's in their probably help too I think, especially Leucine, lots of money research ongoing with Leucine, not sure if there is much in the way of actual conclusions yet though, I don't keep as up to date with this kind of stuff lately.

In reply to davidwright:

I think we are talking at cross purposes, as I understand it, the study quoted suggests that consuming carbs+protein immediately following exercise leads to faster replenishment of muscle glycogen than simply carbs...? I wasn't intending to comment on muscle building.

In reply to davidwright:

Look at the International Society of Sport nutrition position statements for the most robust evidence. It has reviewed most of the high quality evidence.

Not sure that either (david and plexiglass) of you can answer as to the efficacy of protein shakes unless you first clarify exactly what the outcome is you are judging them by? Is it glycogen repletion? protein synthesis?

For me two of the important take home points from the ISSN review are:

During consistent, prolonged resistance training, post-exercise consumption of varying doses of CHO + PRO supplements in varying dosages have been shown to stimulate improvements in strength and body composition when compared to control or placebo conditions. Nothing new here. Most people know that they must take in at least some form of protein and carbohydrate after a training session to promote recovery. There is a stigma around consuming a ‘shake’ after training which has led to a lot of misinformation. Research supplements properly or speaking to a nutritionist is always a good idea.

Post-exercise ingestion (immediately to 3 h post) of amino acids, primarily essential amino acids, has been shown to stimulate robust increases in muscle protein synthesis, while the addition of CHO may stimulate even greater levels of protein synthesis. Additionally, pre-exercise consumption of a CHO + PRO supplement may result in peak levels of protein synthesis. Most interesting here the mention of essential amino acids. Of particular interest is Leucine which has been shown to independently stimulate protein synthesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18834505

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291

In reply to Worcester_Ash: So a snack containing proteins and carbs before and after training is best, does not have to be shakes, can be normal food.

Leucine is in brown rice, beans, meat, nuts, soy flour, and whole wheat, plus other stuff

In reply to summo: holy cow, eat normal balanced food before and after training, who'd of thought it

In reply to summo:

Yep totally agree. Personally the ease of shakes makes it easier for me, but I guess I'm lazy!

The other advantage is regarding the timing of the protein intake. Unless it's preprepared and ready to go you might miss out on the benefit.

But I think the consensus seems to be getting your intake from whole foods is ideal, but if not then supplement with shakes. It's hard to sift through all these supplements though, even if you are relatively informed it's just overwhelming!

In reply to franksnb:

Lol! 'Scientists' now spend most of their time finding evidence to support the otherwise bleeding obvious! I joke with some friends who like myself are doing research degrees that all of our respective topics can be summarised in a few words, which is in most case bleedin obvious Ask the average bloke on the street and they would probably give you the answer within ten seconds!

I.e. I have a mate who studies the downfall of the carpet industry in the UK. The answer = lino and laminate flooring!

I.e. I study overweight kids and health. Answer = eat less, do more!

In reply to Worcester_Ash: I study fluid mechanics... it'd difficult to squeeze into a sentence!

In reply to franksnb:

A can of beans is good after a workout- cheap, as much protein as 2 large eggs, 300 cals, loadsa fibre, fart like a hero...

In reply to Removed User: boom

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa4.htm

In reply to franksnb:

The sound made, if after eating the beans, you stand in close proximity to a naked flame?

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

It doesn't compare with 2 hours or 4 hours after exercise for intake and doesn't follow liver glygogen either (which may be the difference between the groups) and stops the chase at 4 hours post exercise when the important time for gylcogen recovery is at the next bout of exercise say 18-24 hours later with 2 or 3 meals inbetween.

In reply to lost1977:

Ha, I also get mine from myprotein.co.uk, I got chocolate mint flavour and it is amazing!! Blitzed up some green and Black's dark chocolate and it made it like an aero mint milkshake.

In reply to Worcester_Ash:

First of all there are many synonyms for quack out there. The ones that aren't are generally protected titles in this case the relivent one is dietician.

Secondly the outcome I would judge by is the imporatant one of improved recovery and repate exercise performance in the long term (i.e 18-48 hours) virtually all the studies look at outcomes over a period of 4-6 hours max.

So we are trying to measure something over a long time where we can't control the subjects behaviour over that period. This is why in vivo studies of final destination help. These show what happens to neutriants ingested at a particular time, if as these show, post exercise intake ends up in the general pool we can be fairly sure there is nothing special about them. All the stuides referenced by those reviews (at least the ones I can trace) use some form of suragte outcome (protein sthysis, blood aa levels or aa uptake) usually in a short period post exercise. We aren't interested in rates of uptake or synthisis we are interested in the total response, in fact we aren't even really interested in that we are actually interested in is can I train hard again tomorrow.

To be honest looking at those suggestions on both pre- and post exercise consumption they amount to "eating enough is a good idea". the window appears to be 1 hour before through to 3 hours after given a duration of 2 hours that gives a 6 hour period most people will eat one meal in any given 6 hour period....

In reply to davidwright:

sounds reasonable and is an interesting point. out of interest what studies have looked at final destination?

In reply to Jay_Kay:

not really a fan of mint/choc in general but have tried a sample of MP's and it was quite good, have to admit i do rather like their Raspberry flavour

In reply to Chad H:

Never