UKC

We took our 2 year old climbing on the 'proper walls' (rather than the single kids boulder) at our local climbing centre (Big Rock) for the first time yesterday and I had to do a double take on the cost - £7 for a toddler!

Will climbing be in a few years the preserve of the upper middle class as in the 1930s?

Does anybody have any suggestions for cheaper local walls or cheaper alternatives for taking the first steps into climbing?

She did love it, by the way...

In reply to edordead:

Trust me, dont mention class & climbing in the same sentence. I did it a few months ago and it got to hundreds of posts and people were still complaining about it (Even though i apologised after about 10 posts).

It isnt anything to do with class. It isnt even that expensive. It is what it is!!

Put it this way. How much do you pay to take your toddler to a play centre? £5 or so?
How much to put him into a Little Kickers football class? £7 or so?
How much for swimming lessons?
How much to .........

They are all much of a muchness. When i did some investigation into it, the cost is actually pretty reasonable when you take everything into account. Yep there were hundreds of responses saying it costs nowt to go outdoors with them.

BTW, what on earth does a 2yr old get out of a 'proper' climbing wall. Cant imagine they would find it as enjoyable as a play centre tbh.

In reply to edordead:

Here it is

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=628999&v=1#x8177595

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

I guess you're right in a way on every point... A play centre is pretty cheap. Little Kickers/Tennis etc though you'd also be paying for a supervisor rather than doing it yourself so I could justify the cost more easily.

I think it's that it's only a couple of quid cheaper than the cost for me to go that got me - I can understand 15/16 year olds paying that kind of price but I guess I'm used to only paying a few pounds entry (or free) everywhere else we go.

From the centre's POV I can understand a two year old takes up as much space on the wall as a hulking 20 stone 40 year old so why give them a discount.

And no, not quite as good as a play centre, but pretty awesome nonetheless!

Ed

In reply to edordead:

Its a difficult one. I was moaning about similar things. TBH i do for everything involving the kids but thats another matter.

I suppose it could be that they have an adult price and a junior price. Havent seen many walls with a toddler price Ours has a room for kiddies and tbh thats where me and my daughter spent the 1st few months learning to climb. I had to pay for us both the same rates as I pay now for the main walls.

At the end of the day from a commercial viewpoint i expect they dont see many toddlers climbing and any parent keen enough would probably be happy to pay rather than be told the kid is too young. Most of the toddlers i see at the walls are sat with a parent away from the walls whilst the other parent climbs so they probably arent even charged.

In reply to edordead:

As a father of a 2 year old, just curious, what did she manage to climb??

In reply to edordead:
They only charge 2 quid (or was it 2.50) for playing on the kids-only bit if I recall. If they are using the main wall I don't really see why they shouldn't pay the same as other kids using the main wall.

In reply to edordead:

As a hulking 18 and a bit stone 36 year old...they do give kids a discount. Adult price is £9.something which is par for the course for the South East and cheaper than London walls.

In reply to edordead:

This always annoyed me at Ratho , too. It was 7.50 or so for a junior climb ...our boy usually did a couple of routes aged 3 or 4 and that' s it. They have now reduced it to 5.80 which is much better!!! He is six nearly seven now and does quite a few routes if he is keen, but you never know...that's kids for you!!

In reply to edordead:
It would only make sense to give a discount to toddlers if the wall wants to attract toddlers and, frankly, I'm almost certain they don't. Why would they? They're a massive risk!

I'm not trying to say anything about you or your kid, personally, and I completely understand how much fun kids have at a wall, having belayed them on several occasions, but, frankly, I tend to leave as soon as kids show up - alone or accompanied. My experience has been that kids don't think anything about climbing underneath grown men on lead or of waiting for you to pull your lead rope through, leaving you to dangerously pull it through, above them, or to wait for ages until they get off the route. In my experience, lots of adult parents pay no heed to these, either. Now, if an adult climbs underneath me and I fall on them, they'll probably live and they only have themselves to blame - same if they get slapped in the face by my rope because they started up the route before I had time to pull it down - their problem. If that happens with a kid: death & law-suits!

These are only two examples but the point is clear: kids and adults on the same wall make for a massive risk of injury, law-suits and a lot of aggravation - perhaps not yours but, in general.

In reply to AdamCB:

Rainbow across two grade 2 routes, didn't like wearing a harness so I had to stop her when she was about 12 feet up but once she got the idea of looking down and putting her feet on holds instead of scrabbling up the wall there was no stopping her...

In reply to Neil Williams:

You're right, there is a kids area (that is getting smaller and smaller every month it seems as they put up more of that garish Crazy Climb stuff) and it is cheaper but to be honest the boulder especially is poorly designed as you can only find a couple of routes on it that don't overhang if you're under 4 feet tall. She can climb farther, for longer and with more variety on the bigger walls.

Yes a kid takes up the same amount of room, but in fact there are only a few small towers suitable for kids that small so actually she was the only person there (in the corner by the features wall) all the time that we were there.

I think my problem is probably that I'm used to different prices for under 5s/under 3s at many places we take her. I'm interested to know if this is the going rate elsewhere too - I know Pinnacle has a u14 rate that's a bit cheaper.

On the plus side, it might convince the missus that the home wall wouldn't be such a false economy after all...

In reply to edordead:

I've been taking my 4 year old to the mini works in sheffield for a year or so, I think it's about a fiver and has slides to get back down so she loves it. I tried taking her to awesome walls to do some higher stuff but to be honest it was too much for her,and with shoe and harness hire it was pretty expensive. Probably the best thing you can do is buy a sheet of ply and some big holds and just set up a little wall at home. You can even rig a top rope up too, at least then he/she can find their feet and you can have a sneaky go too.

In reply to edordead:

My local wall is bouldering only and charges 4 pounds for under 8s (7.50 for adults), which is pretty reasonable.
To be honest I never realised they charged until I checked their website, we've just let her try what she likes (with one of us supervising) while we were there bouldering anyway.
She was still too small to actually get off the ground last we went so I don't think the staff were too bothered.

I guess it's up to the wall what they charge for children but if we got charged a lot for a toddler we'd go elsewhere because we can't justify paying her in at an adult price for her to try a few problems and we actually spend less time on the wall too when she's there because we have to supervise her.

In reply to Xharlie:

Quite agree that many kids make me a lot more careful climbing around them as you don't know what they'll do next, and if I'm on my own I prefer going when the wall is quieter. Kids also annoy me when they a) climb harder than I can and b) never get tired!

I had to have some strict words with her and grab her at one point yesterday to stop her running near somebody in the bouldering area and saw other, older kids being ignored by their parents running under overhangs etc. that could have had people on them.

In most commercial enterprises (especially a wall like this if you've ever been) I'd expect them to really encourage kids along so that the parents get involved, buy from the shop/cafe, learn to climb, pay for lessons and whatever else. If the wall has weighed these benefits against the injury risk then I understand the prices.

(I was going to suggest that younger kids might be more closely supervised than older ones, then that the parents might have something to do with it, but then I stepped back from that minefield)

In reply to edordead:

At Stanage the other day, some older gents were discussing the price of a new exhaust for a Ferrari.

In reply to MeMeMe:

Where's your local with under 8 prices if you don't mind me asking?

In reply to edordead:

"... that the parents might have something to do with it, but then I stepped back from that minefield"

That's precisely my point.

I think, from what you write, that you are not one of these irresponsible parents but I think we can all agree that irresponsible parents are out there - they exist and, like idiots everywhere, they ruin it for everyone.

The "kids at adult walls" debate strikes me as identical to the "dogs at crags" debate. On principle, I approve whole-heartedly of both dogs and toddler-climbers. In practice, I can't stand most dog owners and I really disagree with the conduct of 99% of parents.

There's also the fact that, as a non-parent, when you're up against parents, you are always wrong. No matter what happens, no matter who's at fault, you're wrong so just face it. This is why, as a climber, I just leave when the kids arrive. If I didn't pay a once-off charge, that's ok. If I paid 9-quid for a once-off and don't feel like I got a good session, I'm generally livid.

In reply to Xharlie:
"My experience has been that kids don't think anything about climbing underneath grown men on lead or of waiting for you to pull your lead rope through, leaving you to dangerously pull it through"

Sounds like your rope is literally made of lead (Pb). Maybe use normal soft nylon ropes and you'll be less of a danger to others. Also, why are you deliberately endangering children? Is your selfish "me me me" gratification really more important? No offence(*) but you sound like a real prick.






* OK some offence....

In reply to edordead:

My son Callum started at 2 as did his brothers Tom, James, Jonathan and Euan!
My local wall Sunderland was brilliant let them come in for no charge at that age, to get them interested, now all of them pay and go climbing regularly both indoor and outdoor so the walls investment short term pays dividends long term.
As to what a 2 yr old gets out of it!!! You really have to ask, its fun its adventure its quality time with the parent where we can bond even deeper together!

In reply to Helen Bach:
I *never* deliberately endanger anyone but, as a leader, you haven't got any control over what happens below you and my most recent experience of kids in the gym was exactly what I described: I was lead out and they climbed underneath me. I have never been more afraid of falling in my life - even on sketchy trad. gear.

It's not about self-gratification or being a prick - it's entirely about safety.

Please note: the O.P. is asking that walls give lighties a lower rate for access to the adult sections, not to the kiddies sections. I've got absolutely no issues with the kids in the kiddies section, well out of the fall-zone.

Edit: the venue in question was a gym in München with 30 metre indoor silos. A 60 metre rope falling on a two-year-old would leave quite a bruise - even made from nylon - enough to anger just about any parent.

In reply to Wsdconst:

Hi

Great to hear that you tried Awesome Walls, Sheffield with your 4 year old.

Just to be clear, we only charge £1:00 for under 5 year olds when climbing with a paying adult.

Our full price list is here- http://www.awesomewalls.co.uk/climbing-centres/sheffield/sheffield-overview...

All the best

Dave Douglas
Awesome Walls Climbing Centres Ltd

In reply to edordead:

I took our daughter to the sports centre wall in Blackpool aged 4. I filled in the form, she signed her name and we went bouldering. Couldn't do much, but she loved it.

We went back the next week, collected her card only to find out she wouldn't be allowed in until she was 5. Computer said no.

Kendal wall seem good. No age limit. Adults don't pay/pay very little if they are supervising kids. They make it very clear that it's your job to look after them and stop them running about.

In reply to sbc23:

As long as the adults do do that - and that means unless there is a second adult present dedicated to that child (realistically no more than 2 toddlers per adult) that adult must not leave the ground, not even for a second - they need to concentrate on the safety of those children at all times in what is a very dangerous environment (and one that with the mats etc doesn't *feel* like one, which is worse).

I nearly flattened a 2 (ish) year old when she ran under me at Redpoint's bouldering wall literally just as I fell off. Fortunately the parent noticed me shouting "get out of the way" as I fell and grabbed her, otherwise my 18 and a bit stone falling from 2 metres up would have been almost certain death for the kid with nothing I could realistically do to prevent it.

The wall will still be there when they are old enough to sit still where/when they are told and understand why. Meanwhile, for a 2 year old, kids play parks are free and probably more fun

In reply to edordead:

http://www.edenrockclimbing.com

In reply to Xharlie:

Xharlie, I think you've been brave and honest but mostly correct in what you've said. I'm sort of glad you take yourself off rather than get too wound up with kids and dogs so that you enjoy your climbing more, and I can sympathise with your feeling that you can't win with parents - I'd like to think if you politely asked me to keep control of my child underneath you I'd do it with pleasure, but from very personal experience (sister-in-law) I know how dangerous 'advising' parents of anything at all is.

For the wall in question the risks of climbing around/over kids is fairly small on the walls, as the top rope and lead areas are fairly separate, and in fact the are that is most suitable for younger kids is almost never used by adults anyway- but still charges at full kid whack!

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts - I think we will try further afield and at walls with off-peak pricing to try to keep the enjoyment and interest up, and I'll challenge the wall particularly as the 'designated' childrens area has reduced considerably in size recently.

In reply to MeMeMe:

Thanks!

In reply to Xharlie:

I think your judgement might have been coloured by your recent experiences.

The issue is with irresponsible climbers whether they be children or not, I've experienced as much inconsiderate or dangerous behaviour from adults at climbing walls as I have from children.
I guess the slight difference is that with children it's their parents responsibility to make sure their behaviour is correct, but in that case your gripe is with their parents.

I'm surprised you had so much trouble when roped climbing though, by its nature it's usually better supervised than bouldering, sometimes with bouldering the kids just run wild because the parents aren't necessarily climbers and they don't appreciate the risks well enough to supervise their children appropriately.

Also things can vary enormously between different climbing walls depending on the attitude of the staff, some places will make sure kids are not running riot, for others kids running riot are their main customers.

In reply to edordead:

Thats our local wall to. I have spent many many hours in the kids play room while my daughter learnt to climb. Then as she progressed onto the main walls she has left me behind. Unfortunately now i have lost my climbing buddy and i am too old to go in the kids wall by myself

In reply to MeMeMe:

"The issue is with irresponsible climbers whether they be children or not, I've experienced as much inconsiderate or dangerous behaviour from adults at climbing walls as I have from children.
I guess the slight difference is that with children it's their parents responsibility to make sure their behaviour is correct, but in that case your gripe is with their parents."

I'll agree and even go so far as to say that I have experienced kids in the gym who are far better behaved than some adults! However, the not-at-all-slight difference is that, with children, the consequences are likely to be far more severe than with adults simply because of the size and weight difference.

You're right, again, when you say that my quarrel is with the parents but precisely how does it help for me to tell the parents that they should have been taking better care of their charge *after* I've squashed the kid because they were somewhere they shouldn't have been? If a toddler dashes out from under a roof while you're falling, there's nothing you can do and no time to call the gym attendants or parents.

I've also observed many extremely responsible, level-headed, polite, competent and attentive parents who can't even stop their toddlers from charging out of their own living rooms.

In reply to edordead:

As a father of a two year old boy , I agree that 7pound is probably a bit steep for a child of that age as they usually have quite short attention spans and the novelty may wear thin after one climb, if that! , I have yet to take my lad climbing to an indoor wall because I would rather take him out to mess about on some blocks it's free and there is lots of other things surrounding him for him to enjoy other than just the climb , but saying that I am lucky I only live a short distance from holyhead mountain , hope this is some help.

Lee

In reply to Xharlie:

I think a policy of "one strike and you're out" is probably sensible. The parent can bring in the young child into the climbing areas, but if the child is allowed to run around without direct supervision 100% of the time then, following one warning, they should be asked to leave and not return until such time as they can handle the situation safely.

In reply to Xharlie:


Look on the positive side of this, the consequences _for you_ are likely to be less severe than if you land on an adult.


It's not your responsibility to call the gym attendants of parents (although you might want to for your own peace of mind, or you might want to just shout at them to get out of the way if they are loitering under you like you would with an adult). If you squash little Billy when you fall off then it's because their parent (or whoever is in charge of them at the wall) didn't supervise them correctly, again, it's not your responsibility (although I understand, like everyone, you might want to avoid this unpleasant situation).
If there are often kids running riot at your local wall then I'd complain to the management and if that has no effect I'd climb elsewhere. Complaining on here probably won't make much difference although it might help you let off a bit of steam.


Well they can do what they like in their own living rooms, I'm not necessarily against toddlers charging around but a climbing wall is not the place for it.

If our two year old got landed on at the wall by anyone then I'd be the one apologising (both to the climber who landed on her and to our two year old for not taking care of her).

In reply to Xharlie:

Also (I'm trying to be genuinely helpful here I know it's not the UKC way but there you go) try talking to the kids just as you would with anyone.
You might be surprised at how reasonable they are if you just say "I'm just pulling the this rope down now, can you stand back so it doesn't land on your head because it would hurt you".
Or "I'm just climbing this roof can you make sure you don't get under me because I might fall off and squash you".

It's trickier to do with the ones running about like nutters but it does work in some situations and if nobody else has bothered to give the kids any advice then it'll help them too.

In reply to MeMeMe:
Sorry for not mincing my words, but you would be apologising to a dead person if a 2 year old was landed on from a height by a large adult like me - or at the very least one paralysed for life.

Yes, it really is that serious. An apology is not enough. Very small children must NEVER be allowed to run around in a bouldering or lead climbing area. If they do, they are at *massive* risk - and consider the climber who fell on them through no fault of their own, too. I'd be devastated if I killed or seriously injured a kid, even if unable to avoid it - it weighs on my conscience every time one of my Scouts picks up a minor injury, let alone something serious. It could bring some people to kill themselves. And it would be the fault of the negligent parent. A lot to live with for a moment's inattention.

If I landed on a similarly sized adult who was walking under me without looking, there would probably be broken bones on both sides and some *very* choice language from me. Frankly, I'd rather that than killing a kid who was not old enough to be responsible for themselves, so was a victim of an irresponsible parent.

Climbing walls are dangerous places. They are not childrens' playgrounds. There are plenty of the latter for children to enjoy (some including features like dedicated bouldering walls, even), and they don't cost a tenner to get in, either.

(I think we may agree, FWIW)

In reply to Neil Williams:
So, your point is that children should not be allowed at a climbing wall or bouldering wall? In fact they should be banned from all life that is dangerous - such as navigating traffic to get to school, going up hills, enjoying the outdoors. We should keep them locked up in a bacteria free room until they reach the age of 18 when they can be released into the wild.

How about accepting that there are many different people in society and we all need to take appropriate care. Or are you advocating all elderly people, say above 50s for example should be banned from traffic, shops etc and be put into homes for their safety, too, seeing that their reactions are getting a bit slower and they are not that quick of the mark. Frankly taking my kids to school in the morning and negotiating crossing the very busy main street is a lot more daunting than going to a climbing wall.

Facilities are for people of all ages, not just you. Yes, appropriate care and supervision must be taken by all participants, but frankly, you are not the only one entitled to use the wall/swimming pool/ road or any other facility in society.

In reply to wolfcraig:

In traffic, the drivers are responsible for missing pedestrians. In the climbing gym, those walking about on the mats are responsible for not walking through a fall-zone. These are opposite situations.

I'll accept that kids are going to be ok in a gym where the *climber* has to be the one responsible for not falling on people but I'll also not climb in that gym because how can you? If you climb, you are going to fall at some point and you can't do that if you have to not fall on people over whom you have no control - and might not see.

In reply to edordead:




Nothing else local although it was worth every penny for us. And big rock staff are brilliant too* (I wish it still cost me £7 week rather than what I pay now and all the kit)

Trips outdoors are cheap too if you going somewhere, My daughter started on some random boulders in devon before starting regular climbing at big rock from 4 years old.




*Other climbing walls have brilliant staff too but I am biased!

In reply to Dave Douglas - Awesome Walls:







Thanks for the reply, I was only belaying at the time so I got charged full child price and I hired her some shoes and a harness too,I'm not complaining about cost at all, she's just not ready for the big stuff and I don't want to push her.

In reply to Xharlie:

Sorry, I have been climbing and falling for twenty years and I have not ever fallen onto anyone at a climbing wall...or anywhere else. Maybe you should be more careful in your choice of belayers...I also have not ever landed on anyone bouldering - apart from the people who actually where in place to spot me. I think your scenarios are contrived and made to keep one section of society out of your way, i.e. kids. If instructed well, kids are equally capable of adhering to rules. They are part of society, like it or lump it.

In reply to wolfcraig:

Nope. My point is that parents must be in proper control of children in climbing/bouldering walls at all times, and must understand their responsibilities in doing so. And for everyone's safety, need to be warned then thrown out if they do not properly carry out those responsibilities.

Though I do take the view that an under 5 (ish) is in most cases going to get more out of a visit to a play park or even a very slabby crag on top-rope than an artificial climbing wall, simply because of the way the wall is set up with the gaps between holds. And this is from experience - my nephew, when he was very young, got far more out of playing on a really easy crag than anything involving spaced-out bolt-on holds - also I'm an instructor at a Scout wall, and even some younger Beavers (age 6-8) have trouble getting much more than a metre or so off the ground - and that's on a slabby wall where rainbowing gives a grade of about F2-2+.

As regards older children, no issues at all with them, as they tend to be old enough to realise that running around the bouldering area without looking up is not safe, know when to stay still when told to do so, and are also less vulnerable to being killed if a rugby player falls off the wall above them and lands on them. And also might understand what is meant by someone shouting for them to get out of the way if they do inadvertently end up in danger.

With regard to roads, I would take a broadly similar view - children should not be out on their own until they are old enough to know how to cross a road safely unless in something like a "home zone" with cars only at walking pace and absolute pedestrian priority, or indeed on the MK Redway system where there is no need[1] to cross any roads. (I like this concept, FWIW, but it isn't going to happen if your house is on the A1).

[1] I do however get fed up seeing young kids ignore a bridge/underpass and run across a 70mph dual carriageway, then the parents complain when they get hit by a car, when they should in fact be ensuring that the kid *knows* not to do that and is responsible enough. Yes, you can learn to cross such a road safely, but at those speeds kids just don't have the judgement it takes - really at that age "if you can see a car it's not safe to cross" - and as these roads are quite busy that won't be often!

There will be elements of judgement in this, of course.

In reply to Howardw1968:


Northampton's reasonably local, but I like Big Rock personally. And yes their staff are very nice and friendly and their setting is good. I'm a member and consider it good value. And your kid is welcome provided they aren't going to wander into a setting where I might fall on them without knowing they are there.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I have always been very responsible, but have taken my kids since they were born. Never had even a run-in or dispute with any other wall-user. I think you are being unfair by saying 99 % of parents are irresponsible. Well, either you don't have kids or you have three nannies to keep them wrapped up in a bubble at all times


BTW I don't live beside the A1, but in a medium sized town where I have to cross the main artery to get to school. Takes ages and is even scary when I am cycling just on my own.

In reply to wolfcraig:


Erm, where did I say that?

I think most parents actually are responsible, but there are too many who are not. Indeed, kids running under me when climbing has happened maybe 4-5 times - though that's 4-5 too many, and it would have only taken one of them for me to kill them (and one was very, very close indeed).

In reply to wolfcraig:


I challenge you to catch all 18.5 stone of me falling from above the first clip with slack out to clip second. I know one person who has managed it, he is *incredibly* quick and heavy enough. I doubt many people could do it. I'm not even sure I could do it.


I haven't either but I have come very close.

In reply to Neil Williams:

It was me wot said "99%". Hyperbole, definitely, but the irresponsible ones do tend to stand out.