UKC

I'm planning climbing Ben Nevis the 24th or 25th of Dec. It will be my first time in Scotland. Can anyone tell me maybe something important I should know?
What sort of climate can I expect at the top. I guess one should start walking VERY early. Will I need a head torch, crampons, etc.
I will appreciaate every bit of advice.
Thanx
William

In reply to William: If your serious and your just walking up the tourist path from glen nevis, just take an axe, thast all youd need, and a head torch incase your late, start walking about 8:30, 9:00 youll be fine,

on top cold probably, but if you keep moving a fleece jacket witha waterproof on top would be fine,

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Of coursel, if you slip and break your ankle you'll die a cold and lingering death.

Seriously: chances of a clear day are low. Be sure that you know how to navigate off the top in close to zero visibility. Just in case.

In reply to Li'l Zé:

And remember that the path may be invisible if there's any quantity of snow lying i.e. the ability to navigate in a whiteout is pretty important if you're planning to be on the Ben Nevis plateau in winter.

In reply to William: I would take everything you mentioned....you also should know the correct bearing to get off the summit. You could get weather ranging from blue sky to hurricane force winds and blizzards.

In reply to William:

Dear William

One piece of advice I would give is do not follow somebody else thinking that they know where they are going. At the time of year you are going, there are a lot of people on the hill who have not a clue about the hills. As to what you should take with you on the hill, I will leave that to others.

Norrie

PS Do not take something on the hill that you do not know how to use it.

In reply to William:

If you take an ice axe make sure you know how to use it. If you don't then don't venture onto the top if it is covered in ice and snow.

Stiff boots are good, bendy boots will be no good on ice.

More than likely there will be cloud so as somebody has already mentioned make sure you have the bearings to get off (corrected).

Kit to take:
Waterproof top (keep the wind out as well)
Fleece
Top to wear
Spare top or two
Warm trousers
Stiff boots
Warm gloves (preferable mits)
Thermos
Map & compass

I will be cold but don't get too hot when you set off.

I once saw a yank going up after new year wearing shorts and trainers between christmas and new year.

Don't be too afraid to turn back. The Ben is cold in winter and can be a pain to navigate on.

In reply to William:

Regardless of equipment (lots of warm and waterproof stuff), THE most important thing is the ability to navigate in a whiteout. There's a good chance you'll have bad weather, or at least cloud and rain,and the snow will make the path difficult if not impossible to follow. If you can't navigate with a compass, the top of the Ben in winter is possibly not the best place to start learning, as the consequences of making a mistake could be fatal.

Enjoy!

In reply to tony: the top of the Ben in winter is possibly not the best place to start learning,

it is if your already up there, map readings common sense, red bit on the compass points north, thats about it,

Cheers


Iain
(who can get lost a knife edge ridge)

In reply to William:

You might find this handy:

Even very experienced mountaineers can have great difficulty navigating accurately in severe wind or 'white-out' conditions, such as occur frequently on the Ben Nevis plateau.


From the summit trig pillar walk 150 metres on a grid bearing of 231° to near the top of Gardyloo Gully.

Then follow a grid bearing of 282° to clear the plateau.

http://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/~arb/durc/nevisroute.gif

Not finding yourself in Five Finger Gully on the way down is the general idea.

G

In reply to William:


Even if there's very little snow, the paths (and a lot of the surrounding grass), especially lower down, can be covered in thick water ice from seepage, and it's easier to stop and put the crampons on than to try and find a way around, or alternatively lie on your stomach and wriggle down! The "tourist track" was like that on the way down last January.

Other than that, admittedly I've never done it, but I imagine that going up the tourist track must be one of the most tedious walks in Scotland! However, going via the Carn Mor Dearg Arete is excellent, and you get to see the interesting side of the mountain (although it does make a longer day).

In reply to William: Speaking from experience do not attempt it, unless you can navigate in whiteout, have good winter skills, and are fit. I bumbled my way up there 5 years ago, and if hadn't met up with someone who had just finished a winter skill's course I would have been well F*****.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Sorry Ian, I think your answer is very irresposible. As others have said, if you can't navigate in whiteout, don't bother.

In reply to William: one bit of gear no one has mentioned is someone with experiance in the hills and i dont mean someone who knows what the numbers mean on a compass! if you havent allready, get on a first aid course. Where are you located

In reply to William:
The best advice I can think of is to ignore everything Iain Ridgeway has said in this thread.

In reply to Jamie B.: Why be scared of it?

OK its a whiteout, just read the bloody map.

People are trying to make the mountaisn elitist,

Ok bens just a big fcuk of lump, at the bootom the night before just get a map and go through you bearings from the trig point, if you do things steadily theres no problem,

also whats the big fear of being lost ina a blackout, OK you start again, it isnt the end of the world, Ive been lost in white outs on cairngorm, years ago, I just took my time and didnt panic,

Your main worry i time, but thats bollox, a lot of accidenst happen because peopel are scared of the adrk, nohing changes once it goes dark, Ok itll drop a few degrees, but its the same as a white out, so you just navigate slowly, using a torch,

Id urge anyone who cant navigate that they shouldnt be going up nbloody kinder never mind the ben, but If they want to go up the ben id imagine they d have some ability,

Its like teling him, make sure you wear walkking boots, credit the guy with some intelligence, map reading is hardly quantum physics,



if he can navigate at all then my advice is fine,

its attitudes like you lot that make people fear the hills, have caution, have 100% respect but dont fear them, they are the greatest natural feature of our country and should be enjoyed by everyone, and anyone with reasonable fiitness ad common sense can enjoy them,

Cheers

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Because if you get it wrong, there's a reasonable chance you'll fall a long long way and you'll die. Don't know about you, but I'm rather wary of things that threaten my life, which is why I don't think the top of the Ben is a good place to start learning to navigate in a whiteout. If the OP hasn't walked in a whiteout before, I don't think it's sensible to encourage him to do so on top of a dangerous mountain - there are much better places to learn mountain navigation.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

1. http://www.bullnet.co.uk/soft/essential/ESS063.html

2. You are talking crap. Ben Nevis in a whiteout is no place to learn to navigate - the margin for error is far too small and the consequences of failure far too serious.

In reply to tony: In all fairness Ithink people worry about walking in whiteouts too much, Ive walked for 10-15 years all over the UK, mainly North wales before I started walking in scotland, and I feared white outs, but your basic navigation principles differ little than those that you would use while walking in dense cloud, as long as you just take your time, which to me is the key, have everything prepared, stay calm, there shouldnt be fear,

I think it is insulting for people to assume the OP is a novice, he copuld be an experienced walker but hasnt been in the UK before,

Im sorry I disagree learn it up there, theres no difference in principle between navigation in a white out on the carneddau to navingating on the ben,

but all this is personal views, Im more pissed of by some prick insulting me, all I did was assume the OP was an normal fit guy with common sense, hardly a great mistake, its more likely he is this than some ned from ibrox, no?

In reply to GFoz: sorry for the speling I thought this was an informal chat not achapter of my thesis, Oh shit,

and point 2, thats where i dis agree, my JOKE before said very tongue in cheek, Im assuming as already said the guy has some experience,

If he hasnt then we should write out the whole Mountain craft and leadership book for him right now, thers more to hills tahn navigaion so if he doesnt know that, he wont know how much food to take, what boots to wear...

my main point is on here there are a lot of mountain snobs that big up the hills as though they are some scary place, whaich they are not, if its shit weather dont go up, if it turns bad return, basically

Many contries have heavily signposted routes and don't experience the kind of weather that the Ben does in winter.
Plus, a lot of british hill walkers wouldn't have the required navigation skills to be safe. I'm not suggesting navigation is difficult - just that a lot of people don't know how to do it.

In reply to Glen: Id disagree it can be just as hard navigate on the cairgorm, more so Id say, the ben has more features, around cairntoul, braearich can be more featureless.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

my main point is on here there are a lot of mountain snobs that big up the hills as though they are some scary place

They are. I've been going on the mountains regularly for almsot 15 years but there is still no way I would want to be caught on the Ben plateau on my own in the teeth of a winter storm.

Others give it a go and don't come back. There is no snobbery in having a healthy respect for a potentially lethal sub artcic environment imho

In reply to GFoz: I said that, but I wouldnt cal it fear, respect yes, Id also back off in bad weather, Ive backed of cnight and tryfan due to high winds, if the weather was atrocious he shouldnt go up, again I dont think your giving the OP any credit.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Good advice for a novice, but you said you were assuming the OP had some experience.

If you've got the expereince, then whatever the weather, go up if you want, but if necessary turn back. Some of my most memorable (for the right reasons) mountain days have been in foul weather, either because it unexpectedly improved, or because it didn't. Though with somewhere as dangerous as the Ben I'd be a bit more cautious than elsewhere, the margin for error is too small.

Quick question. If you've got a map, you've got a compass, but don't know about navigation in a whiteout (eg counting paces) then how (other than by luck) are you going to get off the summit?

In reply to Simon Caldwell: and - if the winds blowing in your face and you haven't got goggles (or are as hard as nails) then how are you going to walk on a bearing at all

you'd want an awful lot in reserve to stay calm in that environment i reckon

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

>if it turns bad return, basically

Easier said than done. Once your past the head of the Red Burn then if the weather comes in you've got serious problems if you're a novice.

That probably means at least a 2 hour window from being reasonably safe on the way up to reasonably safe on the way down.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: I know I was thinking that, but i would say pacing is a very basic part of navigating something i certianly learnt at a very young age, but if he didnt know i think by common sense youd come up with pacingm,

but I did say i would assume he had some navigational experience, but if he didnt i personally wouldnt go up into a white out without feeling competent,

I jsut think that in december the chance of clear days is still possible, but all this arguing stems from you reading the OP as a novice me reading it as the OP having experience but not in this country,

Ive been up the ben 5 times, im not sure and once you could see skye the others you couldnt see much, but ive never had much trouble, even in dencse cloud ive never had to pace it out, the toursist track is well cairned, I was up in april after a massive dump of snow, in a white out and walked off no problem just following teh path, Ok I had map skills to back them up, but they werent needed.

In reply to rich: Ive never used goggles, taht includes in the himalayas, the cairngor, the ben, jsut shelter your eyes, in 10 scottish winters, and i now get out every weekend ive never needed goggles, and i wouldnt class myself as hard as nails, in fact Im soft when it comes to cold winds,

In reply to Iain Ridgway: i kind of take your general point in fact - i was thinking of someone trying to work out winter navigation for the first time and needing all the help they could get!

my goggles epiphany was walking into the wind on anoch mor with freezing rain type snow pinging off my eyeballs - not nice - although i do tend to take the 'astronaut' approach to winter clothing

In reply to rich: I actually agree in a way and will be buying some soon, after a simialr experience over ben macdui the other week, I managed but was shouting in pain,

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

With all due respect and not commenting at all on your ability or experience, it sounds like you are giving out some not too well thought out advice here.

Goggles are essential pieces of kit and if you never needed them then I would suggest that you have never experienced all the weather can throw at you. I could be wrong though.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Dear Iain

From reading your comments, I realise you have not been in a real whiteout with the wind blowing while you were on a Scottish hill, it is not the same as it is in the dark.

On occasions I have been in a serious whiteout with the wind blowing, I did not see the point of a map and compass with the correct bearing when one can’t go in that direction because of the wind, even crawling on hands and knees. It does take some nerve crawling along and prodding one’s axe in the hope there is something solid in front, it has been known for people to go over a cornice in bad weather.

On other occasions the same hills can be gentle where the only problems are other walkers spoiling the views.

Norrie

PS You will have to excuse Jamie B, he takes the hill too serious.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

fair enough, but that's not what you said earlier in the thread.

In reply to Fort Person:

One of the advantages of having to wear glasses

In reply to GFoz:



Personally I quite enjoy that sort of thing every now and again...but I wouldn't recommend it as a "good idea" and it can be pretty scary, especially when it gets so bad you have to crawl along the ground using your axe as an anchor.

Iain - No wish to join in the slanging match, but I wouldn't rely on always being able to see the path (particularly near the top). If there's a lot of snow, the only visible path near the top will be footprints in the snow - which quickly get buried in a blizzard. I've come down in a whiteout as it was beginning to get dark and not seen the path until just before crossig Red Burn - although we must have crossed over the zig-zags several times, the whole thing was completely buried.

In reply to DeadSquirrel: Its Ok Im starting to see there point, ...only starting

In reply to DeadSquirrel & Iain -

so what hills round there would you recommend to someone who sound like a newcomer if not to the hills then the Scottish hills?

Western mamores?

In reply to GFoz:

Arthurs Seat

In reply to GFoz: Southern Highlands, a bit more forgiving, though not much and no pushover in full on winter conditions. Ben more group, lawers group or more friendly try ben vorlich by loch earn. If one is fit then traversing Ben More and Stob Binnein is a good one

In reply to GFoz: in all seriosuness, and reading his post again he does sound fairly experienced, well not a total novice,

but glencoe, all close to the road quick walks in, bridge of orchy hills, but in all fairness any scottish hill in winter is an undertaking, ive ran some in febuary without anything but a wind shell, but been freezing in october on skye, and if they dont ave the ability to map read theyd struggle, its all down to conditions, Id say only walk on days where the weathers going to be OKish for the time of year, cloud 7-800 metres, not massive winds, etc, its more the weather than the peak in scotland? no?

In reply to MattG: there good suggestions, its interesting teh moment you get a bit east the hills take on the eastern role so much more, much more favourable to hill walking, you can basicaly drop of anywhere, north glen lyon ridge is a lovely walk, and you can drop of anywhere,

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Dear Iain

I think William has not a clue about the hills, who in there right minds would ask these basic questions on this forum, luckly nobody gave him abuse for asking them.

Norrie

In reply to MattG:


NO hill is safe or easy in winter conditions if the weather turns bad. I've been on my own micro-navigating on the summit area of Ben Lomond in a complete whiteout, and it felt every bit as serious as a runout ice-climb. Yet that hill in summer is the very embodiement of bumbly mass-accessibility. Winter changes everything.

In reply to Jamie B.:
Ben Chonzie is pretty forgiving - just walk in roughly the right direction and you'll get to the landrover track or the valley.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:


Just as well really, as if you HAD lost the path you'd have had no idea where you were and your undoubted navigation skills would have stood for nought...

I know from unpleasant experience that one of the key aspects of good navigation is to get the map and compass out BEFORE you get lost. You need a definitively known point to start from.

In reply to Jamie B.: I know, that's what I was trying to say. But I'd rather be on top of an casteil or cruach ardrain in a total whiteout than on the ben or braeriach. That's the point I was trying to make.

For someone getting into winter mountaineering the southern highlands is a great place to start, better than coire an cheese on cairngorm

In reply to Jamie B.:
You need a definitively known point to start from.

Dear Jamie

What has come over you, you are making valid points, which only shows that there is hope for you yet.

Norrie

In reply to Jamie B.: as a fell runner Id check a map once or twice day, generally each time id left a summit cairn, never any more, are you telling me you walk all day reading your map, everytime i get to a key point i check my map but otherwise i just walk and enjoy, 60 odd munros in and it all seems to be working well,

If you spend most weeks walking I think you get a good sense of direction on the hill, which means as long as you keep an eye on wher you are going youll realise things dont add up pretty quickly, especialy on the west coast,

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I experienced the worst winter weather I've ever encountered on this hill, had to crawl from fencepost to fencepost to avoid being blown over , no chance of getting lost though (fence posts) and it made the dullest hill in the land a bit more exciting!.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

In summer you can get away with that. In winter no.

If the ground is white, the sky is white and there isa gale blowing you often can't tell what is ground and what is not. If you don't know where you are, you wouldn't have a clue where to go. That doesn't nessesatate looking at the map every 5 minutes, but you can't just deside to look at the map when at the top.

In reply to mat s: I said every key point, cairn col etc, but as a runner id only run on okish days,

ive walked for 10 years now without getting lost, basically every half hour, hour study teh map, memorise your key points and carry on, as long as you alwasy no where N is it works fine,

however say cairngorm plateau teh other week, I walked for 3 miles just staring at a map because i had to be precise, but on the W is this ncessary? Ben alder possibly,

but most wstern peaks are ridges and have a clearly defined shape underfeet which makes navigation so much easier than the east, dont you find this?

say last week on the north glen lyon ridge, couldnt see far, but all i needed to know was Im heading east, rough distances between summits, any splits in the ridge, even in cloud i just walked witha compass in my hand and ignored the map, as long as I was heading east, approaching peask at the right time,

every few hours youd get a glimpse or a defined col to give a precise location, but it wasnt necessary until the last peak which has a clear drop to the east,

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Iain I didn't mean to have a go at your navigating skills. Sounds like your own are fine. Just, I would not presume somebody else has the same level of skill. Indeed, if they are asking what to take I doubt they have experiance in Scotish winters. I wouldn't tell them not to go, just to be cautous as it's easy to get caught out.

I would generally agree that in fine or okayish weather ridges tend to be easy to navigate. However, in a complete white out where everything is white they become very dangerous. It's is easy to not bother to correct your compass baring and head off the side. Most of the time however, it isn't that bad.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Dear Iain

Are you the some Iain Ridgway that posted “Ive been lost in white outs on cairngorm, years ago” earlier today. If so, why are you saying “ive walked for 10 years now without getting lost” now?

Norrie

In reply to All:

Original request:


He's got plenty of advice - without any supposition that he might have a whole 60 munros to his name. Which is what he asked for. Plenty of people have mentioned that getting off the Ben in crap weather can prove 'interesting'. Where we credit him with any intelligence is in leaving him to make whatever he wants of it.

In reply to Norrie Muir: theres lost and thers lost, i got lost for an hour but had the knowledge to retrace my steps back to a known point then start again, but Ive never needed outside assistance, which is what id call really lost,

all my main point has been all day is, with common sens anyone can enjoyy the hills, ive done courses but all the skils mean nothing really, its jsut reading a map staying calm and getting experience to know when your out of your depth,

cheers anyway

In reply to mat s: . It's is easy to not bother to correct your compass baring and head off the side. Most of the time however, it isn't that bad

but often on scottish west cost mounatins youre following the north ridge, the east ridge, bearings dont come into it, its just yeah thats roughly east follow this, as long as youve studied the shape and know there isnt twop east ridges and your just aiminga t coming doen, know where any steep cliffs are, you are fine,

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Dear Iain

I do understand now about you not being lost in the Cairngorms, once you knew where you were you were now not lost and you did not need help.

So some poor sole out on the hills and is lost and does not need help, but walks over a cornice and is falling down a known gully is not lost. When he lands at the bottom dead, will he be not lost but dead or just dead?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir: Id say hes dead, when he wakes up hell know where he is,

seriously though all these arguments have come from me saying if he feels confident go out and enjoy it, with respect the hills like the sea neednt be scary, fair enough you disagree, You must like this nanny state we are turning into,

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

seriously though all these arguments have come from me saying if he feels confident go out and enjoy it, with respect the hills like the sea neednt be scary, fair enough you disagree, You must like this nanny state we are turning into,

Dear Iain

You may be arguing, but I am not. I have only been frightened once in the winter on a hill. Seach through my posting and you may find it - a clue - it was not a savage hill, but a person.

Norrie

PS I am going home now, I may be back tomorrow.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

You're making your comments based on your experience. Norrie's making his comments on his experience. Which unless I'm very much mistaken is a great deal more than yours. You might like to cite your 60 Munros as a suggestion of your experience, but there are plenty others who have spent much more time on the hills than you. If you any degree of awareness of the potential dangers of the hills, you'll recognise that there are times when other people know differently to you, and whose suggestions may carry more weight.

In reply to Norrie Muir: fair enough, Im trying to leave this thread, sorry if my commenst have been taken as irresponsible but i like to give people credit, to me if you can map read then the ben shouldnt be scary, and if the weathers terrible then the cahnces are most peaks are dangerous to, Id just assume that someone walking the ben for the first time would only do so after checking the weather first,

Cheers

Iain

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

So's The Cairnwell and that one next to it. Aye, you can get the chairlift up as well, saves walking.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Dear Iain

Never having used a map or compass on Ben Nevis I may be the wrong person to comment on their usefulness on the hill, however I would never rely on them to get off the hill myself. I would think most people who get into difficulty in Five Finger Gully would be carrying a map and compass.

If you had started off your series of postings with “after checking the weather first”, you may have had less grief. Do not take things personally that are posted on this forum as you have a lot to learn yet about the hills.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir: “after checking the weather first"
I thought that would be taken, may I also add after getting dressed and brushing your teeth...

no offence taken, have you seen this comment by trail today on the bbc?

routes snow free all year round? states the lairig ghru, I had snow there three weeks ago, but its hard to get lost there,

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Dear Iain

Not all people take a serious look at weather conditions.

Yes saw the comment on the web, I stopped buying outdoor magazines in 1968, so I gather they have not improved since.

I have toiled from Corrour Bothy to the top of the Lairig Ghru though deep snow. People should not get lost there, but they do.

Norrie

No real advice to offer you but I was once coming off the top in bad weather and was following the percribed set of bearings. Luckily for me I happened to have a rope attached (probably because I couldn't untie it). To cut a long story short, I found the rope very useful both as a navigational aid as we felt our way off in an absolute whiteout (and in stopping me falling ~ but that's another story).

Take care when you go, choose a day that suites your level of experience and don't be afraid to turn back, the hill will be around a while yet, just make sure you are as well.

In reply to Chaos:

Hadn't you heard? They're constructing a Disney-style theme park on the summit in order to provide local employment.