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As im just starting out climbing in winter i am interested in what other's opinions are on the best clothing for scottish routes?
thanks
robert
thanks
robert
In reply to robertsw:
What do you already wear?
What do you already wear?
In reply to robertsw:
More important are the clothes you wear when not climbing ie when walking in and out or belaying your motor impaired chum.
More important are the clothes you wear when not climbing ie when walking in and out or belaying your motor impaired chum.
In reply to Stuart the postie: so far ive worn a pair of waterproof trousers and a waterproof jacket, layers underneath that. i think these softshell garments have made me slightly confused.
In reply to robertsw: Thats all you need! £200 'softshell' does not keep you any warmer than layers and a good waterproof shell, regardless of the fashion police.
In reply to dek:
Yes, that's completely the point... which you don't seem to have grasped.
> (In reply to robertsw) Thats all you need! £200 'softshell' does not keep you any warmer than layers and a good waterproof shell
Yes, that's completely the point... which you don't seem to have grasped.
In reply to TobyA: You see what i mean? Toby the policeman is on my case already...30 years of winter mountaineering and i dont seem to grasp the concept of keeping warm..oh dear
In reply to dek:
Fine - but you don't seem to grasp that what works for you might not work for other people. I haven't used a waterproof plus layers since about 1992. It doesn't work well for me or lots of other people. Your statement: "'softshell' does not keep you any warmer than layers and a good waterproof shell" is simply wrong in my experience. It keeps me warmer, by making me less sweaty, and its better to climb in. You might be fine in a shell, but don't dismis the experience of others just because of your 30 years of experience.
Robertsw - you don't need to pay 200 quid for a 'softshell'. Softshell really just means anything that is windproof, but not waterproof (hence less sweaty). Buffalo, Montane, Marmot, Mtn Hardware, Rab etc all do good 'softshell' things for 100 quid or less (quite a lot less in some cases).
For many many years I used the buffalo system (big face shirt, salopettes, and belay jacket) for all my winter climbing from I to V. The whole lot cost less than 200 quid, although it might be a bit more now.
Loads and loads of threads on softshell in the archives if you search which should give you some ideas.
> (In reply to TobyA) You see what i mean? Toby the policeman is on my case already...30 years of winter mountaineering and i dont seem to grasp the concept of keeping warm..oh dear
Fine - but you don't seem to grasp that what works for you might not work for other people. I haven't used a waterproof plus layers since about 1992. It doesn't work well for me or lots of other people. Your statement: "'softshell' does not keep you any warmer than layers and a good waterproof shell" is simply wrong in my experience. It keeps me warmer, by making me less sweaty, and its better to climb in. You might be fine in a shell, but don't dismis the experience of others just because of your 30 years of experience.
Robertsw - you don't need to pay 200 quid for a 'softshell'. Softshell really just means anything that is windproof, but not waterproof (hence less sweaty). Buffalo, Montane, Marmot, Mtn Hardware, Rab etc all do good 'softshell' things for 100 quid or less (quite a lot less in some cases).
For many many years I used the buffalo system (big face shirt, salopettes, and belay jacket) for all my winter climbing from I to V. The whole lot cost less than 200 quid, although it might be a bit more now.
Loads and loads of threads on softshell in the archives if you search which should give you some ideas.
In reply to robertsw: Buffalo HA Salopettes and Special 6 SHirt with Techno hood
In reply to Dave Stelmach:
Big Face is better than the special 6 'cos it has a crotch strap! How many other items of clothing with a crotch strap can you wear openly in public!
> (In reply to robertsw) Buffalo HA Salopettes and Special 6 SHirt with Techno hood
Big Face is better than the special 6 'cos it has a crotch strap! How many other items of clothing with a crotch strap can you wear openly in public!
In reply to TobyA: Dear Toby..You should stop dictating what people can or can not grasp....you come over as an arrogant tw*t. This thread is simply about a lad asking for a cheap simple set of clothing for winter to keep warm.
Information is easy to find on the subject, as there is a multitude of brands and 'systems'
Robert, the most important thing might be to get good winter boots and crampons sorted out first (for climbing)
Any other clothing is a matter of experimenting, but i repeat you dont have to look sartorial on the hill.
Information is easy to find on the subject, as there is a multitude of brands and 'systems'
Robert, the most important thing might be to get good winter boots and crampons sorted out first (for climbing)
Any other clothing is a matter of experimenting, but i repeat you dont have to look sartorial on the hill.
In reply to dek:
Dear dek
Yes, it is how you feel, not how you look on the hill.
Norrie
> Any other clothing is a matter of experimenting, but i repeat you dont have to look sartorial on the hill.
Dear dek
Yes, it is how you feel, not how you look on the hill.
Norrie
In reply to Norrie Muir: Hi Norrie! you are the exception to the 'sartorial rule'
BTW i saw the photo of you and 2 mates in a doss somewhere? its a bit too dark imho..i have lightened it to get detail, send you a copy if you want?
Your fans really need to see you in a 'good light'
BTW i saw the photo of you and 2 mates in a doss somewhere? its a bit too dark imho..i have lightened it to get detail, send you a copy if you want?
Your fans really need to see you in a 'good light'
In reply to dek:
You're the one who keeps bringing up fashion - as if people who don't agree with you, are only worried about what they look like. If I'm being arrogant, you're being patronising - how do you know that Robert is either a "lad" or wants something "cheap" and "simple"? Anyway - as I pointed out, something like Buffalo is lot more simple and cheap than the normal goretex and layers system.
Whatever. At least Robert knows there are a few options now.
> ...you dont have to look sartorial on the hill.
You're the one who keeps bringing up fashion - as if people who don't agree with you, are only worried about what they look like. If I'm being arrogant, you're being patronising - how do you know that Robert is either a "lad" or wants something "cheap" and "simple"? Anyway - as I pointed out, something like Buffalo is lot more simple and cheap than the normal goretex and layers system.
Whatever. At least Robert knows there are a few options now.
In reply to TobyA: Dear Toby, start your own thread...'what not to wear' you seem to be an expert. FIN.
In reply to DougG: Dear Doug, Ah know..but im not supposed to have been in there
In reply to robertsw:
As you can see from this thread, there is no one 'best' system. If you already do winter walking, the stuff you wear for that is a good starting point. Don't spend a fortune until you have gained an idea of what will work best for you. Since you move slower and stop more when climbing, good boots and good gloves or mitts are worth investing in but things like gaiters want to be cheap to start with as you will put a crampon through them !
Personally, I have a pair of old fleece salopettes and a pertex covered fleece top which does for most routes. Goretex salopettes and jacket if it starts to rain or if its really windy.
As you can see from this thread, there is no one 'best' system. If you already do winter walking, the stuff you wear for that is a good starting point. Don't spend a fortune until you have gained an idea of what will work best for you. Since you move slower and stop more when climbing, good boots and good gloves or mitts are worth investing in but things like gaiters want to be cheap to start with as you will put a crampon through them !
Personally, I have a pair of old fleece salopettes and a pertex covered fleece top which does for most routes. Goretex salopettes and jacket if it starts to rain or if its really windy.
In reply to robertsw:
I look like a bag of shite when I go winter climbing.
Why waste good gear tunneling through the mud, gravel and vegetation that constitutes your average Scottish mixed day out.And I'm a dab hand at spiking/shredding my breeks in the process.
I look like a bag of shite when I go winter climbing.
Why waste good gear tunneling through the mud, gravel and vegetation that constitutes your average Scottish mixed day out.And I'm a dab hand at spiking/shredding my breeks in the process.
In reply to Slugain Howff: Dear Slugain, agreed! You dont hear of many folk dying of hypothermia as much these days, possibly as the 'Waterproof Shell system' seems to work in our climate?!
In reply to robertsw:
I prefer Paramo to both softshell and to breathable membranes like GoreTex and eVent.
I prefer Paramo to both softshell and to breathable membranes like GoreTex and eVent.
In reply to Slugain Howff:
>And I'm a dab hand at spiking/shredding my breeks in the process.
Well shredding your breeks sounds better than sh*tting them!
>And I'm a dab hand at spiking/shredding my breeks in the process.
Well shredding your breeks sounds better than sh*tting them!
In reply to robertsw:
I've been climbing in Winter for 10 years or so and have used shell layers over the top. The hard balance to strike is the one between too hot while climbing (common) and the too cold while belaying your pal who takes too long (also common). I don't think there'll be many here who can say they've not suffered from either.
It depends on what kind of physiology you've got too. Some folk are cold, others warm. I can walk in all the way to the route with just a single base layer on top as I am warm and get sweaty. I also don't get hot aches or cold feet, unlike some of my pals. I do get cold at belays but it's usually because of a long wait.
I wear fleece trousers under shell salopettes, a thin base top, a thin fleece, a thick one and then my shell jacket. And a balaclava.
I've been climbing in Winter for 10 years or so and have used shell layers over the top. The hard balance to strike is the one between too hot while climbing (common) and the too cold while belaying your pal who takes too long (also common). I don't think there'll be many here who can say they've not suffered from either.
It depends on what kind of physiology you've got too. Some folk are cold, others warm. I can walk in all the way to the route with just a single base layer on top as I am warm and get sweaty. I also don't get hot aches or cold feet, unlike some of my pals. I do get cold at belays but it's usually because of a long wait.
I wear fleece trousers under shell salopettes, a thin base top, a thin fleece, a thick one and then my shell jacket. And a balaclava.
In reply to robertsw:
2 pairs short loop pile sox.
Plastic boots.
Pair of old stretch ski racing pants with bib and inbuilt gaiters, padded knees.
Thermal tights and wicking underpants.
Lifa.
Fleece.
Buffalo Belay jacket + hood.
(Down duvet for cold dry conditions).
(Cagjac for the wet).
Cheap waterproof ski salopettes for bad weather (full side zips).
(Phoenix thinsulate ski salopettes for really cold weather).
3 or 4 pairs of gloves including Buffalo mitts, leather, cheap ski gloves.
Fleece hat, home made.
Helmet.
Fleece neck loop.
Probably forgotten something.
> As im just starting out climbing in winter i am interested in what other's opinions are on the best clothing for scottish routes?
2 pairs short loop pile sox.
Plastic boots.
Pair of old stretch ski racing pants with bib and inbuilt gaiters, padded knees.
Thermal tights and wicking underpants.
Lifa.
Fleece.
Buffalo Belay jacket + hood.
(Down duvet for cold dry conditions).
(Cagjac for the wet).
Cheap waterproof ski salopettes for bad weather (full side zips).
(Phoenix thinsulate ski salopettes for really cold weather).
3 or 4 pairs of gloves including Buffalo mitts, leather, cheap ski gloves.
Fleece hat, home made.
Helmet.
Fleece neck loop.
Probably forgotten something.
In reply:
And I forgot the Marks and Spencers briefs. Boxers are a bit draughty, and can lead to chaffing.
And I forgot the Marks and Spencers briefs. Boxers are a bit draughty, and can lead to chaffing.
In reply to Dave Bo: jesus christ man, Im surprised you can move with all that shite on!
In reply to robertsw: I mainly use buffalo stuff myself as its good for most Scottish conditions, hardwearing and relatively cheap compared to some other options. However I always take a waterproof jacket - buffalo, Rab vapour trail, mountain hardwear and any other "soft shell" stuff I have tried - all of these are water resistant to varying degrees but none are actually waterproof. When you do end up in the lashing rain as inevitably happens sometimes in the Scottish winter it is so much better to have a proper waterproof on top. Yes you will still get wet due to sweat and leakage but your kit will not get saturated and sopping wet (unless you fall in a burn). Buffalo etc retains some warmth when wet but once it is totally wringing it is pretty miserable.
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
Dear God
Get a pair of Dachstein mitts, and then you can do fiddly bits with your bare hands.
Norrie
> (In reply to Erik B)
> I'm a 5 pairs of gloves man myself.
> I'm a 5 pairs of gloves man myself.
Dear God
Get a pair of Dachstein mitts, and then you can do fiddly bits with your bare hands.
Norrie
In reply to Lewis climber:
I used to love the Buffalo claim that you could jump in a burn and then be toasty warm again minutes later. As Karen Dunbar says in Chewing the Fat, 'I smell.....scheidt'.
I used to love the Buffalo claim that you could jump in a burn and then be toasty warm again minutes later. As Karen Dunbar says in Chewing the Fat, 'I smell.....scheidt'.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
>Get a pair of Dachstein mitts, and then you can do fiddly bits with your bare hands.
My eyesight is bad enough without doing that on the hill as well, Norrie.
>Get a pair of Dachstein mitts, and then you can do fiddly bits with your bare hands.
My eyesight is bad enough without doing that on the hill as well, Norrie.
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
Dear God
Well, you should start fannying about in the hills.
Norrie
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
> My eyesight is bad enough without doing that on the hill as well, Norrie.
> My eyesight is bad enough without doing that on the hill as well, Norrie.
Dear God
Well, you should start fannying about in the hills.
Norrie
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre: Its good stuff but they get a bit carried away with some of the claims for it. If you are a true believer you should not wear a thermal underneath the top which is great until the wind comes in the side vents and cools the sweat on your back to ice. You are also not meant to wear normal scants - apparently they make pertex and pile jockstraps!?
In reply to Dave Bo: jesus, when was the last time you went on the hill in winter, and what did you do?
do you push a tesco's trolly full of news papers up and down the high street randomly shouting at people?
do you push a tesco's trolly full of news papers up and down the high street randomly shouting at people?
In reply to Lewis climber:
>apparently they make pertex and pile jockstraps!?
I've got one on right now, and my haw maws are fine and toasty, so they are.
>apparently they make pertex and pile jockstraps!?
I've got one on right now, and my haw maws are fine and toasty, so they are.
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
Re. the chafing problem, I can recommend Germalene - "It keeps the chaps aff yir bum".
Re. the chafing problem, I can recommend Germalene - "It keeps the chaps aff yir bum".
In reply to Norrie Muir:
>Well, you should start fannying about in the hills.
I think Erik could confirm that has been going on for some time already, Norrie.
I reckon Dachstein's could be the next big thing (again)btw. Gloves don't seem to do the job very well. I know folk who can't see past their Dachstein's- do you not have to be careful about freezing metalwork and it sticking to your hands though?
>Well, you should start fannying about in the hills.
I think Erik could confirm that has been going on for some time already, Norrie.
I reckon Dachstein's could be the next big thing (again)btw. Gloves don't seem to do the job very well. I know folk who can't see past their Dachstein's- do you not have to be careful about freezing metalwork and it sticking to your hands though?
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre: I just buy Plastic biners..dont stick to me, and makes me not fall orf..not to mention cheaper...as for buffalo Thongs..thats just darned Kinky!
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
Dear God
I went back to Dachsteins because my hands get sore in the cold when wearing gloves. Just be careful when gripping a krab/wire in you mouth in the cold.
Norrie
Dear God
I went back to Dachsteins because my hands get sore in the cold when wearing gloves. Just be careful when gripping a krab/wire in you mouth in the cold.
Norrie
In reply to Norrie Muir: Smoke mair fags..keeps the lips warm.
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
Worked for me last time I tried it. my personal favourite claim was
that this could be used as a substitute for washing yourself and
your clothes.
genius
Worked for me last time I tried it. my personal favourite claim was
that this could be used as a substitute for washing yourself and
your clothes.
genius
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
I can usually manage to do most things with the Dachsteins still on.
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
I know folk who can't see past their Dachstein's- do you not have to be careful about freezing metalwork and it sticking to your hands though?
I can usually manage to do most things with the Dachsteins still on.
In reply to DougG:
>Re. the chafing problem, I can recommend Germalene - "It keeps the chaps aff yir bum".
Ta for the tip Dougie, if my Markies briefs fail me in the future I'll certainly do all in my power to keep the chaps away.
>Re. the chafing problem, I can recommend Germalene - "It keeps the chaps aff yir bum".
Ta for the tip Dougie, if my Markies briefs fail me in the future I'll certainly do all in my power to keep the chaps away.
In reply to robertsw:
dachstein gloves are good too - theyre warm enough (just) and not stupid prices like the goretex.
dachstein gloves are good too - theyre warm enough (just) and not stupid prices like the goretex.
In reply to dek:
Dear dek
It is hard enough rolling my fags when taking my mitts off. I don't have a problem with my lips,I train them by having ice in my rum.
Norrie
> (In reply to Norrie Muir) Smoke mair fags..keeps the lips warm.
Dear dek
It is hard enough rolling my fags when taking my mitts off. I don't have a problem with my lips,I train them by having ice in my rum.
Norrie
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre: and my haw maws are fine and toasty
Your meant to keep them cool!!
If you wish to procreate
Your meant to keep them cool!!
If you wish to procreate
In reply to Norrie Muir: Dear Norrie, i recommend King Size, last longer..but if it works for you ??
Once met Arthur Paul in Corrie Fee, (thawing day) the party had a bottle of Tom and Jerry..was most envious!
Once met Arthur Paul in Corrie Fee, (thawing day) the party had a bottle of Tom and Jerry..was most envious!
In reply to A9: Oven Gloves.. from Ikea..thermally very efficient, V/roomy, and only 68p per glove..seem to suit my large hands tho...Many colours, and you can mix and match!
In reply to Norrie Muir: Dear Norrie, i agree, but not all Dundonians were like that!
In reply to dek:
Dear dek
He did not pick up any bad habits from the Dundonians.
Norrie
PS Are you from Dundee?
> (In reply to Norrie Muir) Dear Norrie, i agree, but not all Dundonians were like that!
Dear dek
He did not pick up any bad habits from the Dundonians.
Norrie
PS Are you from Dundee?
In reply to Lewis climber: V Good advice.
In reply to sandyman: Read it again and think.
In reply to dek:
And what about tescos for his fleece - good value.
I'd draw the line at oven gloves for Scottish winter though.
And what about tescos for his fleece - good value.
I'd draw the line at oven gloves for Scottish winter though.
In reply to A9:
Andy Kirkpartrick has raved about scaffolders gloves in the past - warm, dry, good grip.
http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=428
Andy Kirkpartrick has raved about scaffolders gloves in the past - warm, dry, good grip.
http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=428
In reply to Norrie Muir: Dear Norrie, yes, but stranded in Edinburrie at the moment.
In reply to A9: Dear A9, dont be so hasty..you can get a pair of 'sticky thickys'on under the oven gloves....
In reply to dek:
you will have noticed an improvement in quality moving from dundee to edinburgh ? perhaps you should upgrade yr mitts too.
I too moved across the country travelling Eastwards from Glasgow, dundee was a move too far.
you will have noticed an improvement in quality moving from dundee to edinburgh ? perhaps you should upgrade yr mitts too.
I too moved across the country travelling Eastwards from Glasgow, dundee was a move too far.
In reply to A9: Dear A9..What a traitor... I prefer Dundee nearer the hills.Climbing in Glen Clova after work in summer takes some beating..BTW whats so good about Edinburgh? Think the locals are as easy going as Glasgow? you will always be a 'Weegie' to them..European capital city..yeah right. Find the aggro in this town means i might need Boxing mitts rather than oven type
>
> Get a pair of Dachstein mitts, and then you can do fiddly bits with your bare hands
> Get a pair of Dachstein mitts, and then you can do fiddly bits with your bare hands
I used to do all my climbing in these, could even place gear (except friends) and clip ropes. The only problem with them is that they wear through at the thumb/palm after several routes and they are getting harder to come by and more expensive than the 10 quid they used to be.
Climbed all of my routes in Canada in these and straight shafted Piranhas, kept the Scottish climbers are hard bastards alive, compared to todays gear freeked, namby,pambys (Erik), he laughs at me.
Dachstiens are as traditional as it gets, you can't place bolts wearing them.
Stuart
In reply to Stuart the postie: Dear Stuart, agree with you, do the most important job in keeping your hands 'warm'. Other versions similar are easy enough to find, if you drop one just dig out the spares and not weep about the price! I always fancied a Dachstein sweater..imagine how toasty that would be?!
In reply to Stuart the postie: naw naw naw, you kept the "scottish climbers are tight bastards" alive I remember you telling me that the canadians where laughing at you as well mate! so its not just me!
anyway, I used mitts for many seasons, as i found a pair on beinn an dothaidh, Poor old Mearnsie went to me "are they your gloves Eddie?" as he pointed at a brand new pair of gore-tex mitts sitting on the snow, I replied to him swiftly "aye, they are now" and lunged for them and pocketed them.. he has never forgotten his major faux-pas that day, very unusual behaviour for a lad from Prestwick...
anyway, I used mitts for many seasons, as i found a pair on beinn an dothaidh, Poor old Mearnsie went to me "are they your gloves Eddie?" as he pointed at a brand new pair of gore-tex mitts sitting on the snow, I replied to him swiftly "aye, they are now" and lunged for them and pocketed them.. he has never forgotten his major faux-pas that day, very unusual behaviour for a lad from Prestwick...
In reply to Erik B: Erik, nobody would stoop so low as to swipe my Oven Mitts?!
In reply to robertsw:
Buffalo / Montane for everything except fullon hoolies. Then put on a cagoule.
A hipflask and stash also helps on the walk out..
I hope that helps.
Buffalo / Montane for everything except fullon hoolies. Then put on a cagoule.
A hipflask and stash also helps on the walk out..
I hope that helps.
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