UKC

I was wondering if anyone has any experience/advice with dealing with landlord objections to boards or climbing walls.

So I'm currently building a 40 degree board in my bedroom. It's a completely free standing structure and takes up just under half the room. I live in a shared student house on a one year lease.

Building was going great until earlier this week, when the property management company came to fit a new oven. An estate agent accompanied the contractor and must have seen the half finished board. I received an email demanding the removal of the board as they claimed I breached the tenancy agreement on the following points

-making alterations or causing damage

-blocking access to the fuse box

-preventing prospective tenants from viewing the room

I refuted them with evidence on all three points, as I had considered the the tenancy agreement when designing the board. I also countersunk all screws and am using an old carpet to minimise the risk of damage.

Anyway, a few days go by after my reply and I hear nothing. This morning I received an email from the property management company. They didn't mention any of their previous objections to the board, but it is now suddenly a fire hazard and must be removed. I'm unsure how they managed to evaluate it as a fire risk as the only person from the company who has seen it is a trainee estate agent. I have looked at the tenancy agreement and it does indeed state that tenants may not keep flammable materials but I feel like it's a stretch to call a bunch of plywood and screws flammable. Indeed the other furniture in the room, the floor and the rest of the house are also made from wood.

From a legal point of view, it seems as if anything the tenant brings is in the tenant's responsibility, not the landlord's.

I'm considering asking the property management company to explain how they evaluated it as a fire risk. 

Does anyone have any advice, as I'm really unsure where to go from here?

Thanks

I'm in Scotland and I think the law and rules differ slightly for landlords and tenants. 

If an agent is doing an inspection they need to give notice. I don't think accompanying a workmen would mean that they can check all the bedrooms as that seems a bit invasive. A different story perhaps if your door was open and the structure really obvious and they just happened to spot it.

The agents should not be there to give you a hard time. They are looking after the property for someone though so it's unlikely you're going to be allowed to keep the structure. They have given reasons and the fire hazard one although you feel is not correct would be tough to prove otherwise.

If you're desperate to keep it then take it down, let them inspect and then rebuild it. Not sure it's worth risking your tenancy though. 

If someone asked to build a board in my place I'd say no and I'm a climber. A fingerboard would be fine but not in your case as you'd be drilling into the walls. 

@Climbpsyched - @jeremyingham said he was building it completely free-standing so no drilling into the walls.

@jeremyingham - I would perhaps take photos of all of the furniture in the apartment that are made of wood (incl. yours, your housemates and your landlords if it's partially furnished). Exclude your woody from the set of photos. Email the photos to the estate agent asking them which bits of furniture the fire marshall wants removed in order to reduce the fire risk to an acceptable level. Keep the email civil, polite with plain, matter of fact language.

It puts the onus on them to prove they have actually consulted with an appropriately qualified fire warden/marshall with regard to the fire risk of the apartment rather than they are just trying to find any excuse to make your life miserable.

Then again, maybe don't follow my advice, as I tend not to like arbitary, illogical rules and like a bit of fight on occasion...

Seriously though, you could probably get independent advice from a fire marshall/service etc

"Fire risk" might also include impaired access / egress for residents and the fire brigade, as well as the materials used.

Plus, your parasitic agency has to demonstrate to the fat cat landlord they are earning their corn, by being "pro-active" aka arsey 

😉

The workmen were fitting an oven, and one of the "reasons" was blocking a fusebox.  So, perhaps the fusebox was in the bedroom and the workmen had to enter to isolate the circuit whilst the oven was installed?

Yeah to be fair, when they did come round, the board was half built, so some of the pieces of wood were blocking the fusebox. However I explained that I had designed access to the fusebox into the board, which they accepted. Now they're going with the completely unrelated fire issue out of nowhere.

I'd use a 'comparative furniture' basis. If you can dismantle it in less than an hour and move it somewhere else then it could be stored in the garden for all the landlord knows and as he has to make an appointment to visit, he won't know. However, if the wall needs serious dismantling and can't be moved easily by one person, I think you're going to struggle to justify it. If it were my house, I'd be concerned about something bigger than a wardrobe to be used for jumping and climbing on. 

Sadly, renting in this country is a nightmare and the tenant has few 'rights' unlike in Europe. 

Tim

p.s. How about a challenge - make a climbing wall that converts into a wardrobe at short notice!

p.p.s. How about another challenge. Ask to speak directly to the landlord and mention that you'd like to rent long term but do climbing as a serious hobby and wondered if there were any way of setting up something to keep fit? and then see note about wardrobe sized unit.. 

Ignore it?

I am guessing that the agent/landlord do not come across climbing walls in bedrooms that often - they probably have little idea what they are looking at.

The issues they have raised don't seem that credible. A polite explanation and an offer of some token mitigation (e.g. fire retardant paint) might sway them.

Personally, I would be more concerned of the potential impact damage from repeated falls on the floor/ceiling underneath. If cracks start to appear you will be on pretty shaky ground. 

Having wood around a fusebox may itself be a fire risk?  One change from Edition 16 to 17 of the Wiring Regs was that new fuseboxes had to be metal to reduce this, though if it's an older one that may genuinely present a risk.  That said, a lot of fuseboxes, mine included, are in a wooden cupboard...

What is the basis of your lease, or is it a more restrictive licence agreement?  Does it allow you your own furniture or is it furnished without being able to add yours?  This may alone be enough - most halls of residence wouldn't allow your own furniture, but shared houses vary massively in how they are let.

You should have asked first.
 

If you argue with the landlord and they claim you have breached the conditions of your lease, they’ll evict you and then charge you to put the room back to how it was. ie workmen and a skip to remove the wall. 

I don’t think any rational person would consider a climbing wall as a piece of bedroom furniture. Ultimately you need to talk to the Landlord civilly about it but I suspect they engaged an agent so that they don’t have to deal with arguments like this directly with tenants. 

There was someone of my acquaintance who once built a soundproof room within a room within his bedroom. A huge, 7 foot (internal) height structure filling the whole room, constructed of timber, plywood and hardboard, double skinned and filled with packed down sawdust. The walls were a good 6 inches or more thick and there was a full size door into it. Its weight was- well, the floor didn't collapse.

Theoretically it could be disassembled but I do believe that when he finally moved on it remained there. It did make the room nice and warm though.

The landlord never visited...

yeah the fuse box is itself wooden which presents at least as much of a fire risk as the board

It's a shared house, and there's nothing in the tenancy agreement that prevents you from bringing your own furniture or equipment. In fact, it seems as if under current legislation, the tenants own furniture is excluded from risk assessments done by landlords

yeah right!!

I'm a climber and also have been a landlord for over 20 years. I would have been ok with it but ONLY if you had asked first and then on the understanding that if it didn't infringe on anything.  The thing you forgot is that outside of "our" world people don't understand the concept of why you would build one in the first place.   
Go back to the management company and politely ask if they will reconsider, but at the end of the day it is not your house and you have to abide by the rules. 

The electrical regs aren’t retrospective. 
 

I suspect that the ‘construction’ of the wall has probably frightened them more than anything else. Especially if you’ve left ‘construction materials’ lying around obstructing areas. Just because you’ve said it’s going to be freestanding isn’t going prove anything. The worry for me would be the effect of repeated impact, from jumping off, on the ceiling below. 
 

I would get the thing finished. Make sure you have some kind of fire retardant paint on the wall. All furniture sold has to be fire retardant/resistant now, regardless of what it’s made of. 
 

The landlord can’t be held responsible for items that the tenant brings into the house so there’s no point in risk assessing them. 

I think a bit of common sense would tell you that a landlord would not find a "climbing wall"of this structure acceptable. (Even though it sounds great to all of us on here).

Hardly surprising in the grand scheme of things.

You need to back away gracefully.

Luckily it's on the ground floor, so I'm not worried about impacts on the ceiling below. I'm also putting down mattresses and plenty of bouldering mats to soften the impact. 

Thanks for the tip about fire retardant paint. It's made mostly from modern plywood bought in the last three years. A mate who is a carpenter says that plywood sold now is pretty fire resistant.

We rented a student house in Leeds and, after we left, some other members of the Uni climbing club moved in. They erected the Tek Noe Board. It was huge and weighed a tonne. It consumed the living room entirely. It was not free-standing. The bottom of it was jammed up against the skirting board on one side of the living room and some beams extended from the top of the board and just pressed against the opposite wall (which was the adjoining wall with the neighbouring house, this being a terrace).

Amazingly, I don't think any cracks ever formed in the wall that it was pressing against. A testament to Victorian engineering. Your board sounds like small beer in comparison. Your landlord should think themselves lucky!

In fairness I think the student  landlords in Leeds at the time had pretty low standards. If the walls were mostly upright you’d probably have been fine.

Are your bloddering mats fire resistant? Can't remember seeing a fire resistant label on mine.

What are you studying by the way?

Assuming you only need to be there until May/June 2020 I'd imagine this can be strung out until then. Take a look in your tenancy agreement to see if there is something along the lines of "quiet and unhindered tenancy" to see if they're breaching that. Your deposit will be held in an independent scheme so keep full details of correspondence and photos of full project for their investigation if the worthless parasites try withholding deposit.

Although I have no experience as a landlord, i would suggest that you are free to use the room as you wish, provided that :

1 - you don't damage the property (beyond normal wear and tear) or present an exceptional hazard to it

2 - you can return your room to its original condition at the end of your rental period.

Although the landlord's agent may get shirty, the terms and conditions have to be fair to both parties.  If you have paid to live there, it's none of their damned business how you live.  Subject of course to points 1 and 2 above.  Have a look through the rental agreement and ask the agent which terms they think you have breached.

Unless there is damage on moving out they can't withhold deposit for that reason.  It's a damage deposit, not a means to fine someone for breach of the lease that didn't cause them loss or damage.

https://www.edenrockclimbing.com/carlisle/

You see to be determined to ignore the points being made that a landlord would find it unreasonable, despite the landlords agency telling you so, and several landlords on this site also agreeing.

I would suggest you are falling foul of what used to be regarded as 'the spirit, rather than the letter' of the law. (/contract). You are looking at the contract and arguing that you don't 'precisely' break any of the terms. 

And as such, whilst you are believe you aren't breaking any terms in the contract, you are building a rather large unwieldy structure in a room of a house you rent. Any (non sympathetic climbing) landlord would be suspicious and find reason to prevent you. Don't be surprised if you are given notice (currently no reason needs to be given for this, just the appropriate time frame and procedures followed.)

You could probably string it out until you move out but then your name will be black listed with agents and landlords making life difficult for the next couple of years. 
 

fire wise- everything in rented accommodation needs a fire label... but only if it’s supplied by the landlord otherwise they have no liability for it. That said, they do have a responsibility to ensure you don’t invalidate their insurance. Which it wouldn’t. 
 

if you’d done that in my rental flat I’d be pissed if you hadn’t asked and all for it if you had. Maybe a lesson there? 
 

if you can contact the landlord direct rather than the agent you might get a different answer. Or piss them off more and cause yourself more hassle...

I've considered building something like that in my garage, and then just concluded "but why wouldn't I just go to the wall?"

If you want to do the odd bit of climbing related exercise at home a fingerboard or pull up bar would be more use (but obviously ask permission first for those too as they have to be screwed to the building).

Just like  'fire-resistant' cladding I expect.........................

depends how far away from a wall you live and how much time you have of an evening  a lot easier to find an hour or two to pop out to the garage than drive to the wall. 

Personally, I think some people are being a bit harsh on jeremyingham.

I am a landlord.

My attitude is that for the period the tenant is renting it out it is their home not mine. I feel pretty uncomfortable in dictating how tenants live their life - it is a pretty demeaning. If the room/house is returned in the state it was handed over (minus wear and tear) and they are not causing any annoyance to other people, what is the harm? 

Yes, it would have been more diplomatic to ask the landlord. However, I would hope they would be receptive, if you try to explain what you are doing and why and what steps you will take to lessen their concerns.

Ignore all the landlords that seem to have gravitated to this thread like flies around a turd. If you're not breaking any rules, you're completely within your rights.

Join ACORN - the renters' union - or band together with a few friends and create a new branch, if one doesn't exist in your city. Landlords might own the property, but excepting a few basics they've no right to decide what you do in your own home.

https://acorntheunion.org.uk

You sound like the only decent landlord on this thread. Thanks for viewing renters as adult humans.

If the fuse box is indeed wooden then that is definitely not allowed under current wiring regs (side note, it's either old as f*ck or it's been done by a cowboy sparky). How about pointing this out to the agents over the phone or in person (not email/letter), and drop a not-too-subtle hint that you're considering reporting it to the HSE. They might magically forget about the wall then.

Also ask them for a copy of the last EICR done for the house (electrical installation survey report). If it's more than 5 years old then they're breaking the law by not doing it regularly. See if the report mentions the fusebox being wooden. If it doesn't, and the board does look over 5 years old, then send photos to the NICEIC and a copy of the report, as someone hasn't been doing their inspection job properly

True...I'm privileged in being roughly 10 minutes drive or half an hour's cycling from either of the two Big Rocks...is the OP near the wall linked to upthread?

Have you considered giving it a coat of fire retardant paint?  

Whilst the construction might seem odd to some, I guess it would be no different to someone having a wall full of wardrobes.

I'm a landlord and have had my share of issues so far, but if the wall is free standing and doesn't damage anything, then I'm not sure what terms you would be breaking.  There are figures available for plywood and OSB fire resistance.

As someone else has correctly said upthread, electrical regulations are not retrospective.  If it meets the regulations that were in force when it was installed, it is not in breach now.  New work requires the latest standards to be followed, and does require some things to be brought up to date if certain work is carried out (e.g. earth bonding) but generally it does not.

That said, I suspect "not to current standards" would appear in the report - I've had that on my previous boiler but it doesn't mean it's dangerous per-se.

I think being finiticky here is just going to get the OP evicted (as the landlord would just scour the lease to find a way to have him in breach, a bit like if you get awkward with the Police if you get stopped they'll scour your car from top to bottom to find anything to charge you with) and make it hard for him to get a reference and so hard for him to rent again.  I think practically he needs to accept that the landlord/agency doesn't want the wall to be there (whether it is safe or not) as it's rather a niche thing to have in a bedroom, and would be best dismantling it and storing it somewhere (parents' garage?) so it can be rebuilt, with prior permission, in a future place of residence.

The fact that they changed their reasoning suggests that they are listening and may well give up if you are persistent.  So keep going.   If it was me I'd write back and provide an argument as to why the board wasn't a fire risk based on the plywood being fire resistant and asserting it didn't block any doors or such like.  Realistically a bit of treated plywood with holds screwed to it is far less of a fire hazard than a chipboard Ikea wardrobe full of clothes.   Maybe all the bouldering mats on the floor would be a fire risk though

So... now we need to ask landlords' permission before we engage in "niche" things in the privacy of our bedrooms??

Jesus. I didn't realise landlords were such perverts...

With rights come responsibilities.

You’re living in someone else’s property. Assuming the landlord is allowed to periodically inspect the property and that it’s student accommodation. What is going to happen to this wall at the end of the period? Thats the question Id be asking and something that has been constructed in a room will need to be dismantled and disposed of. Could I cover dismantling and disposal, with the deposit, if it came to it. That would be my only worry. 

Nice.

I once built a wall in our living room. When the agent was round one day and went "eh, wtf is that?!", we just said "oh, don't worry, it's free-standing and doesn't block anything" and then "don't worry, it's fine, we'll take it with us when we leave" and the agent basically said "oh". She was very easily persuaded and nobody ever hasseled us about it. But then, we were lucky.

As others point out, you don't need to make it fireproof in any way because all the strict regulations only apply to landlord furniture, anything the Tennant brings in can be as non-complaint as they want (unless something in the lease says otherwise).

There are lots of ways to try and approach this, I suspect the most likely to succeed is going to be explaining calmly and reasonably to the landlord, if you can, or the agency if you can't get any contact details for him/her. At the end of the day, if you are a good tennant, they want to find a way to keep you in there because removing you is expensive and a total pain AND the landlord is likely going to have to pay another fat stack to find and vet a new tennant (and the agency wants to keep evictions to a minimum because it impacts their reputation for finding good tennants and generally doing their job right).

I currently rent a house and basically the agency contacts me every single time there is anything to say, sometimes I deal with a problem myself, sometimes I tell the agency to find someone to do it. If your landlord has a few properties I'd think you have a good shot at talking to him/her, even if you have to do it via the agency. If your landlord has hundreds of properties, I expect you'll find less flexibility and little chance to talk to the landlord.

Either way, explain, make your case... If that doesn't work, next step is probably systematically arguing every point they throw at you till they give up. Sounds like you are already doing quite well with that as they gave up on all of their initial points. They are going to have to persuade someone that their objection is legally based and isn't just "we don't like this thing because it's different and we don't really understand it" (which will be hard because that is the reason) if they want to evict you. In the end it really depends who blinks first - how much do you have to lose? How much do you want this wall?

Other people mentioned the damage to the ceiling below but I don't think that's something I would worry about because if your tennant wants to jump up and down for whatever reason it's going to have exactly the same effect and trying to forbid your tennant from jumping around isn't a thing (assuming your neighbours downstairs don't start noise objections - you could spend a couple of weeks jumping around every evening to find that one out ahead of time )

Though it would be a better idea all round to use it without falling very much.

The weight of the wall is something worth considering - probably a good idea to use bathroom scales to weigh each bit before you fully assemble it and check the overall weight isn't more than, say, 3 or 4 people sitting on furniture.

Renters are paying you rent, as well as paying council tax to maintain the area and contributing to the local economy and cultural life - all things that add value to your asset. Meanwhile, all you do is own a piece of paper saying the  place belongs to you and occasionally pay for a plumber. But, people are frequently paying as much as half their income to cover their rent. In that situation, I think you should be a little modest rather than hectoring about "responsibilities". 

It seems unlikely that you would build something as expensive as a training board and then just leave it behind when you go. Even if one did do that, the cost of a workman to disassemble it or chop it up and take it to the landfill is never going to cost more than the deposit.

Expensive? How expensive is a few sheets of ply, some screws and some 4x2? If you’ve used it everyday you’ve saved more than its worth in trips to the indoor wall. I’m sure the OP is very conscientious but suspect there are people who would just remove the holds and leave it there. 

Ha. Very good. 
 

“All you do is own a piece of paper that says the place belongs to you.”

I take it you don’t have any pieces of paper then?

"suspect there are people who would just remove the holds and leave it there. "

Given that climbers are renowned for being tight, and students skint, it seems unlikely.

Nope. You’re probably right. They’d all completely dismantle it and get their dads to make an extra trip in the car so they can reassemble it in their own bedrooms at home. 

Thread in 9 months time:

"Parents' complaints about home climbing wall"

Lots of pieces of paper, but none entitling me to participate in our bizarre neo-feudal rentier system of exploiting others' labour. 

The majority of landlords are working themselves. Most people don’t suddenly own a house that they can rent out. Someone at some point has had to work to pay for and own that house. 
 

Take the blinkers off. 

Lots of bits of paper; but no intention of educating yourself on the duties, responsibilities, costs and legal risks of being a landlord.

This isn't clear. Here's what one recent report for the Council of Mortgage Lenders said.

"About a third of landlords worked full-time and a similar proportion were retired. Only 6% said they were self-employed as landlords. Non-BTL landlords, who were older
as a group, were almost twice as likely to be retired as those with BTL mortgages. Unsurprisingly, those landlords who bought their first property recently tended to be in work, while those who had been in the business for a long time were more likely to be retired. Over half of landlords who bought their first property more than 20 years ago were now retired."

No indication of part-time employment. 

https://tinyurl.com/yz7twjeu

Useful for anyone interested in some dispassionate data about the sector.

And what a wonderful system it is!

Don't be an idiot, if you think property rights shouldn't exist you are deluded. 

If you think the property system as it currently exists is perfect, you are deluded.

Where on earth do you get that idea from?

I said property rights - i.e. the right for an individual to legally own an object - in this case land, with a house on it. And let someone else have use of it for a sum of money (a legal contract of provision and payment)

A key cornerstone of how non communist countries function.

I used to enjoy reading your blog, is it still going?

I used to own rentals in Sheffield, and never had any problems with tenants. I fitted a mounting board above a hallway doorway in one of them when I was asked so they could put finger boards up. There was also a 30 degree wall in the garage. This is the important part, the tenants acted like grown ups and had a chat with me prior to starting and we worked it out. I think I even donated some slimy second hand hold from The Edge.

However, if a tenant had built something in the house without that grown up chat, it would have been a completely different situation. Irrespective of contracts etc. Delivering a fully built fait a complis to a landlord isn’t the best way to go about things.

I don't know where this stands on a legal grounds, but if only one individual doing property inspections had an issue with it than the letting agent probably wont remember much about any individual property over about a week ago, what might be best is if you play dumb, don't reply to any emails about it and see if it all quietens down and goes away

You could probably string it out until you move out but then your name will be black listed with agents and landlords making life difficult for the next couple of years. 

I owned an HMO in Bangor for years and never knew any of the other Landlords, nothing to worry about there

What black listing is that? Illegal lists?? You have a right to check any public data and challenge its veracity under GDPR.

Ok great. 
 

But the agents that have many places on their books might not want to rent to someone in future and they’re likely to talk to each other regarding poor tenants. There’s also the need for a reference from a previous landlord. 

As long as it was factual (tenant built a large wooden structure in his bedroom and did not remove it when instructed to do so for reasons of fire safety) there would be nothing wrong with it.

That depends on how any information supply is managed... GDPR is surprisingly strict and there are cases where genuine data has been deleted due to other non compliance.

Just because the landlord says it breaches fire safety doesn't make it a fact. Does the landlord or agent have any official qualifications to assess fire safety?  

If someone came around to my house accusing my possessions of being fire hazards on essentially a whim, I would be a bit miffed.  

I really don't see the problem of a tenant building 'a large wooden structure' in the room, if it is not damaging the room or causing any nuisance to anyone else.  

I suppose the extent to which you push your somewhat unorthodox project with your landlord depends on how keen you are to continue living there. As I understand it notice to terminate your tenancy can be served at anytime without explaining why. 

I suppose a bit concern like Varcity might keep an eye on previous tenants, but I never asked for references from students, just met them at the house to show them round really, as for the climbing wall I would have liked to been asked, but wouldn't have any issues