UKC

Recently, I have seen a lot of people getting called out on Insta etc for using the little Chip next to the main slopers on The Cave Problem at Robin Hoods Stride, there seems to be some local knowledge of it not being in?

I was wondering if any locals or anyone in the know on here could shed some light on it please, is this common knowledge and out of interest who originally decided that rule if so? it doesn't appear to be mentioned in any guidebooks and nor on the UKC Logbooks that I can see?

I have yet to try this problem but it has been on my wish list for a while so I want to do it properly when I do eventually get around to trying it.

The potentially offending chip in question can be seen in this video at around 0:24

youtube.com/watch?v=fN2Lh6WKkDY&

Well it wasn't in 10 years ago and I'm not local so not sure it's just a local thing. Isn't t-crack the same? I've not done that mind. 

The people calling out the use of this chip are likely doing so because other classic climbs in the immediate vicinity explicitly eliminate chips. The best example of this is probably T Crack (f7B). In the case of The Cave Problem there is no explicit elimination of this chip at the grade of 7A, at least not in the BMC definitive guide. In general not using chips is considered better style and usually harder with many climbs in the area having different entries and grades using chips and eliminating those chips.

Pink Slab Right (f5+)

Pink Slab Right (with chips) (f4)

Another consideration for doing The Cave Problem properly is doing it from a sitting start. There are many Youtube videos out there which begin climbing from a few moves into the problem, skipping some tricky moves to gain the undercuts. The BMC definitive guide is clear that it starts from sitting with hands on the shelf like this:  youtube.com/watch?v=DtnEVmffLms&

If you're worried, don't use it.

It didn't make much difference for me using it or not, having tried it a few ways (but then I avoid small holds at all costs, and go left hand up to the sloper from under the roof - so what do I know).

I'm usually just happy to let people climb how they want, but what I do know is if you skip the first half of the climb by not sit starting the low block or use the very top lip of the boulder (as I have seen some people) the Crag police is going to come confiscate your chalk bag and drive you off the hill chanting 'shame'. 

That's reflected my understanding of the problem too. I feel that lots of unpure approaches propagated by YouTube (e.g not starting properly, using holds which aren't in) from people who have misread the guide initially. Or in some cases, guides are guilty of not including all the eliminate rules. Needless to say more and more people do the problem in the easier method, because, well, it's easier...  

Letting people do as they wish should be encouraged, however it's worth reminding them that they may have not actually done the problem they thought they had when they use some extra holds or skip starts/finishes.

As a 'local' that has climbed the problem a few times my understanding is the chip isn't in and if you use it you cheat!

Cant remember how we decided the chip was cheating, I think we must have just thought 'its a chip so it must be out'.

I spent quite a few days there, working it before I got finally got it.  The guide doesn’t mention the chip, nor did any of the many other climbers who also worked / climbed it.  The guide does say it’s a sit start from the bottom ledge.

My feeling is that if a guide doesn’t specifically refer to eliminating holds, then they are in.  Thee exception would be if a climb was chipped after a first ascent or guidebook revision.

Anyone who chips the rock should be shot, but that’s another subject!

Wow there's a right load of crap on youtube with regard to this problem...

youtube.com/watch?v=P6m3IymlBYI&

Using the rail at the top. No

No sit start no send

youtube.com/watch?v=7E6ZIt6vBLw&

youtube.com/watch?v=fN2Lh6WKkDY&

and so on. Can anyone find a video of it being done correctly?? It's just instagram insta non send rubbish

Three excellent examples of why I find bouldering ridiculous

Sit start from the holds before the undercut, don't use the top rail and don't use the chip (it's pointless).

Probably should be downgraded anyway. 

The block to the right isn't in either, that first variation must be about 6A

I'll allow this one (begrudgingly - I can't reach those undercut holds comfortably from sit, and start from the low block, peak bouldering and some others describe 'sit, from undercuts'):

,

youtube.com/watch?v=B_f4F8YI5ks&t=57

Brilliant stuff. I'll have to make a note in my guide book to refer to this thread for when I go to video myself on The Cave Problem, to remind me of the rules. I must admit it would never have occurred to me *not* to use the chip. It's not exactly 'off route'. 

Yours,

The king of unsavoury beta.

p.s. this looks tantalisingly close to an actual ascent of the problem, if it weren't for the illegal footblock on the right (and obvs not topping out)...  youtube.com/watch?v=dJKSiKQJsQI&t=591

My advice is to not worry and climb it however you want. Enjoy the process and the movement and don't get bogged down by the pebble wrestling pedants

Point of order please. Thickness of mat legal for a sit start?

Back in old skool days it was a beer towel or bit of cardboard. Unless today's stars dig a pit and place their mat within they're just fooling themselves.

Isn't all climbing ridiculous? Read Games Climbers Play! 

At least the rest bothered to finish it. That footblock makes getting out an awful lot easier, and as for not topping out... 

Unfortunately the nature of boulder problems is that they are somewhat defined. If you've done something else you haven't done the problem. But, after all, it's only yourself your lying to.

In this particular case it would help if any recent guidebook mentioned the chip at all. When I did the climb, I started from a really low sit start but I may or may not have used the chip, because I wasn't aware there was a chip, I reached up there, found something positive enough and pulled on it. I'd need to go back and do it again to clear my conscience, but there really should be a mention of it somewhere if it is meant to be out at the grade.

Haha Cam would love to see one of his videos on a thread like this I'm sure He is generally pretty strict with rules I think. But he also has a massive wingspan.

Have to say, the first move from the sit into undercuts is steady anyway, it doesn't add much difficulty. But that video of the by using the top of the boulder really made me laugh!

Also, I seem to remember crimping in the chip was harder for me than just moving between the slopers anyway. The one on T-crack is definitely out though.

Next you'll be saying it's legit to do Green Traverse without matching the rail.

❤️

If one person climbs it wrong, they didn't read the description properly. If lots of people climb it wrong, the description must be pants. If we want to expect people to climb it in a particular ("defined") way, it has to actually be defined in the first place.

Alternatively, people are just lying to themselves and believing it? There's something about the need to social media everything that encourages lying - the desire to present a polished image rather than accepting the reality of the situation - in this case the reality is that some people can't climb a boulder problem properly.  The description in the BMC guide is pretty clear.

Which would be relevant if everyone was using the BMC guide book. If you have the Rockfax guide book and go to climb the problem you'll be working from this: 

Starting low, gain the sloper at the lip then traverse left to the edge of the roof.

In those circumstances I don't think people are 'lying to themselves' by using the chip.

Ha, funnily enough the headline image for Robin Hood's in the crag directory shows the Cave ...bracing out right on that block 

It’s bouldering. Do what you like. I remember once being out with Martin Veale at Curbar when we were reliably told by a guide toting individual that we were doing the problem wrong, despite it being Martin’s problem. We actually had a laugh about that last weekend when bouldering  at Stanage RH. Thank god that most of the problems we do aren’t even in a guide. It preserves the crag.

The "Bouldering Bibles of the Peak", the two VG guides, both say from a low start. No mention of starting holds or chips. The original Peak Rockfax (FAX09) has the sit start symbol but no mention of starting holds. No mention of chips. It does have problem traversing the lip though….

We all know eliminating a chip is good form and we all know a sit start involves being sat on your a**e. We also all know Dry Whit is a lot better problem at the grade........

It's maybe ironic that there is a variation of The Green Traverse known as The Green Travesty which uses the top. People are only kidding themselves if they claim a tick and the guidebook grade for an eliminate via an easier variation. If they just enjoy the variation, who cares.

It's bouldering so you follow the rules for the problem. Using the same holds in a better way (as you and Martin probably did) is fine but many problems are deliberate eliminates.

Fixed