UKC

Hi guys,

Just been discussing an indoor bouldering problem with a friend and he suggested that the length of a route adds to the difficulty and hence V-grade of a problem. Is that true?

I always thought that the difficulty of the route was determined by the hardest move on the route?

Is there a definitive guide of how a route is graded? What're the considerations when someone grades a route?

In reply to climbingnoob:
Bouldering is an overall measure of difficulty. A 5 move problem will be easier than a 10 move problem if the moves are the same difficulty in isolation and will get a higher grade.

Edit: your use of "bouldering" and "route" is a little confusing since they are two distinct things being used interchangeably.

In reply to climbingnoob:

V grades are not graded by the hardest move, but the overall difficulty. A short sequence of 3 hard moves can be given the same grade as a longer route with easier moves. Problems are graded on experience and can be very wrong if the grader doesn't have adequate experience but as the route is climbed more, other people's opinions may change the grade. This relies on the routes getting traffic and repeats though. Grades change, it's very much about personal opinion and experience. Nothing is set in stone in that respect

In reply to Pete Dangerous:
Cheers buddy. So if a route has multiple hard v7-ish moves, say 10ish v7 moves (as opposed to a normal length route of ?7 moves?), would that bump the grade to a v8/9 by virtue of the problem being longer, and hence more difficult??

NB: no idea how many moves a 'normal' problem has - just plucked numbers to highlight the difference in the length of routes above.

In reply to climbingnoob:

Certainly would. It's a lot harder to do several hard moves than just one, hence the higher grade. Something with 10 V7-ish moves (as in each move would get V7 by itself) would be absolutely nails (I don't climb at that level so wouldn't know how hard).

Doing one or two really hard moves completely zaps your strength to do any more, so there's a big increase in difficulty when you have a problem with 10 hard moves.

Edit: just seen that you've climbed font 7c, so presumably what I've said is quite obvious!

In reply to AJM:

Cool, thanks for your reply. Do you know whether there is any literature on this? i.e. longer routes have a harder grade?

In reply to climbingnoob:


You can see from guides that give both a V grade and a UK tech grade that this is the case (quite a popular system now). V7 (6b) is a good few moves, usually a traverse, whereas V7 (6c) will be a one-move thing.

In reply to climbingnoob:

Literature? I don't think there's an instruction manual for how to grade things that I'm aware of.

But there are plenty of examples. Any linkup of two boulder problems will usually be harder than the hardest grade of the individual problems, for example, which wouldn't be the case if grading reflected the hardest move because it's the same hardest move as before.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Now that you mention it, yes that does make sense! carnage was easier than the carnage assis!

Someone just nailed it into me a few years ago that grading works on the hardest move on a route so that's what i've engrained into myself! Will be difficult trying to adjust to this new reality!!

There is this hard problem in the climbing gym that has got a few people excited - i thought it was a v7/8 by virtue of the moves, but a few guys are saying it's probably a v10 by virtue of it being super long! Will have another look at it tomorrow and try to figure out what grade it is in light of this new reality - eek!

In reply to climbingnoob:


Technically that's supposed to be the case for UK technical grades, which is probably where you've got the idea from. The only problem with that is that people have never been able to agree on what a move is, commonly citing either a single hand movement of a sequence of movements between stable positions. Gets even more tricky when you might have a choice between one quick but very powerful pull and a complex but tiring sequence of slightly easier movements to the same effect.

You might have guessed by now that I've never been a fan of hardest-move grading!

In reply to john arran:


I think it works brilliantly if you say the UK tech grade is the grade of the hardest *bit*.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Yep. There's nowt wrong with a bit of vagueness.
jk

In reply to jkarran:


Sorry, could you clarify what you mean by that?

In reply to climbingnoob:

One thing not clearly highlighted in the replies as yet is that its the difficulty of the overall problem done by the easiest method. This method might not be obvious initially and in some cases established problems get downgraded as someone discovers an easier sequence. Hardest move grading is problematic but can benefit lower grade boulderers who normally trad climb... eg. the joint V grade and UK tech grades in the BMC Peak grit definitives.

In reply to AJM:

Surely this is the wrong way round?.... If the moves are the same difficulty in isolation wouldn't 10 of them get a higher grade than 5?
I think you know what you meant but you said... a 5 move problem wil be easier than a 10 move problem (with 5 moves of the same difficulty as the one with 10)... (but then said....) and it (the 5 mover) will get a higher grade.?

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

The 10 move problem is harder.

In reply to AJM:

and gets the higher grade!

In reply to climbingnoob:

You can take this thought process a step further and break down a problem in your head when working it. Eg if you are trying a 10 move v9 at your limit and it takes you several weeks of work, then sometimes if you can break it down in your head into 3-4 v7 2-3 move sequences, this can help psychologically. Especially if you have a session where you make little progress; at least you can quantify what you achieved on the individual sequences. Works best if you can pull on to work those sections individually.

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

If you have to specify that seperately then your grading system isn't exactly informative...

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Is there a comparitive scale possible that can be done for V grade, uk tech, and Font? Or perhaps missing out uk tech, if that one is hardest to compare...

I'm more into routes, as my knee(s) can't cope with jumping off stuff, but like low bouldery traversing, but because i don't do much, i have very little idea what font 7a would be with a V grade, for example.

Does F7a mean boulder font 7a, and f7a mean route grade french 7a.? ( I've only got back into climbing last yr after stopping yonks ago.)

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

The Font 7A range covers V6 and V7

It is common to use a capital 'A' to denote it being a boulder grade and a small 'a' if for a route i.e. 7A vs 7a

In reply to ukb shark:

Does F and f work likewise?

In reply to climbingnoob:

Length doesn't always means an increase in difficulty - or at least a higher grade.

Another way to think about the difficulty is who can actually get up something. If a group of climbers can all do a V7 problem but only a couple of them can do the extension to the same problem then it's going to be harder. But if they can all do the extension with only a little bit more effort then it might not be worth an extra grade.

Time is another factor. If someone does the V7 in say 5 goes and does the extension in 6 or 7 then it's probably not a grade harder. But if the same person takes say the rest of the day to do the extension then it's likely worth an extra grade or so. (with this kind of reasoning you have to assume all things being equal. eg. skin, conditions, freshness of the climber etc.)

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

If prefixed it's normally F7a or Font7A.

In reply to ukb shark:

So F should strictly be used for Font grades, and f is strictly for french route grade systems, to complete the answer?

I didn't know V was named by /after John "Vermin" Sherman, from Hueco + bouldering there .
This Wikipedia entry gives a comparison for V and F grades...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(bouldering)

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

I didn't say that. And it really doesn't matter that much

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

I usually go by the rule of large F being french and small f being font, and likewise, small letter after the number for French grades and capital after the number for font grades, e.g. Diesel Power in the pass is f8A or V11, and Mecca at the tor is F8b+

Like shark said, this is largely trivial syntax stemming from the fact that for some reason French and font grades are needlessly very similar in format, but it can be useful sometimes.

In reply to AMorris:

Thanks though cos its good to know that its the other way around to what i thought it was, if people care to use it accurately!