UKC

I've heard some reports of clay pigeon shooting being set up in Masson Lee's and climbers were being turned away over the weekend.

Has anyone else got info on this?

The post I saw read as follows:

I went to Masson Lees Quarry in the Peak District with a friend for the first time yesterday. Unfortunately, we were turned away by a small group of people who were in the process of setting up a clay shoot in the quarry. 

They were seemingly surprised to hear that the quarry is a point of interest in the climbing community (despite the BMC disclaimer on the gate) and even more so if it's prominence on the internet. 

We were obviously surprised by their response and asked if they'd seen the bolts and ropes down there, to which they replied that they had seen the ropes and were intending on cutting them all down later in the day..  Does anyone know whether clay shoots will be a regular occurrence moving forward?

There was a lot of chatter about this yesterday, stemming from the interaction the climbers had with the shooters. The said this was going to be a regular thing. Access was denied to climbers so a lot of folk made the trip in vain. They said climbing was never consented. Unfortunately it's private land and the new owner want to monetise the crag but as he couldn't do it with climbers he's moved on to clay shooting. It sounds like access might as well be lost like it happen with Lorry Park. 

Yeah, my climbing partner who lives locally was turned away on Sunday. I really hope access is not lost in the long run.

Theres lots of reasons for lorry park going, seeing as there are people going to be living in it. There's no reason that an agreement at Masson can't be met with regards to shooting- there are many, many crags where hobby-shooting and climbing both occur. 

Thanks, does anyone know if the BMC have been in any discussions as of yet?

I thought the BMC may have already been in discussions and updated RAD, but maybe not.

It was the weekend, give them a chance

Please remember that almost all the access work is done by volunteers with support from a small number of paid staff. 

I expect they mean previous discussions.

Sorry maybe that came across wrong. I presumed that there may have been signs up warning of the changes or some communication for the new owner, given the fact the the quarry is regularly accessed by the climbing community and public, having someone wonder down mid shoot, or even walk along the top of the crag would be extremely dangerous.

Thanks, yes I didn't mean since yesterday, I was just curious if there was anything simmering away in the background.

In this case is Jon Fullwood I think. They have been following the case closely since the parking issue with damaging cars last year. Not sure what the will be able to do as the new owner has the rights to ban access, but let's hope for a resolution.

Yes sure, it's just in this case it seems the new owner seems to only allow money making activities in the quarry, hence him saying climbing access was never agreed. So not a good start.

Jon and his equivalents from local caving groups have been emailed.

Depending on the direction they are shooting the presence of the public footpath may present a safety/ operational issue as well (I remember doing sentry duty as a cadet for a range as it was not allowed to shut the footpath behind it so instead we had to call the range warden and ask them to stop shooting if anyone wanted to come past and wouldn't wait until the end of the shoot).

Thanks everyone who has been in touch about this.

I was on leave last week and hence had to deal with some other matters before I could get on to this today. Apologies for the delay in getting an update out.

The RAD is now updated and I've had initial discussions with the owner's land agent and offered to meet on site. I'm expecting a call back from him in a day or so after he's spoken to the owner. I'll update here and the RAD following on from this. 

Yes, bmc fully involved and actively working on this now 

It's the same owner, land has never been sold, Jon is fully on it now 

In discussions related to the issue of shooting the owner has re-iterated that there is no current permission to climb at Masson Lees Quarry. However, discussions are ongoing in relation climbing access generally and in particular to restrictions associated with shooting dates. 

Important and current notice: The owner has informed the BMC that clay pigeon shoots will be taking place every Sunday throughout November. As such the crag should be avoided on those days.

Thanks for the update. 

I wonder how they are going to manage the rights of way around the quarry when shooting? You can't just close a public footpath can you?

Good point, no you can't!

My understanding is that the shoot is in the quarry,  the public footpaths go around and not through it, apparently they are not close enough to the shoot to have any effect on it, council are aware of the situation as well as bmc  Derbyshire cavers etc

Thanks for update and all the work involved 

The quarry isn't well marked on OS mapping but flicking between map and aerial photography that RoW with the kink in it seems to go straight through the quarry. Can't remember seeing it on the ground though.

Nor me, there is a public footpath around the back,  cave end of the quarry which kind of circles around behind it. 

In reply to:

The Derbyshire County Council Definitive Rights of Way map indicates a right of way around the northern extent of the quarry.

https://maps.derbyshire.gov.uk/connect/analyst/mobile/#/main?mapcfg=Ordnanc...

There may be a footpath around the southern extent, but that is not on the definitive map. The Definitive Map and Statement is the legal record of Public Rights of Way.

A friend informed me that if a public footpath or right of way is at risk of taking fire, the shooting must stop every time that someone wished to use the path.

This would involve the use of stewards on the path to stop the walkers whilst they called a stop to the shooting.

Humm.  I wonder how they would react to a large number of walkers randomly descending on the area during the day....

I'm game..

Could be worth a shot?

Alternatively, let the BMC do their stuff and in the meantime not antagonise the owners. 

I do have a pheasant outfit kicking about somewhere in the house...

I stated as much further up the thread, however that relies on someone competent being in charge, people deliberately impeding the landowner using the land for a, presumably, legitimate purpose doesn't tend to be a great idea.

There is a difference between the RoW marked on OS maps (the green dashed lines) and actual paths (the black dotted lines underneath).

Particularly on open ground the marked RoW might be significantly different to where people actually walk. The Lakes are notorious with 'green dashes' going straight down waterfalls and ruler straight up scree slopes - the downside of mapping at a desk with a ruler).

Think the Dislikers don't get it...

Although there's no right for climbing on private property, I wonder if the BMC could apply for a public right if way into and around the inside of the quarry on the basis that people have been walking that for many years. (> 20 years)

Having a public right of way to walk around the inside of the quarry might change the dynamic between owners and climbers?

You can however legally employ someone to chop the bolts though, especially if getting grief from climbers. That would resolve the issue for the landowner.

Unlikely to be successful as a PROW has to run between two significant points, e.g. from road to road, or PROW to another PROW. Cul De sac PROWs only end at things like beaches or significant summits. A disused quarry is unlikely to fit the bill

However there is a similar procedure under the Commons Act 2006 which allows land used for recreational purposes for at least 20 years "as of right" to be registered as a Village Green. This doesn't have to be a village green in the conventional sense. I don't know whether the history of access to Masson Lees would allow a claim, but there are probably other locations where it might be an option. I have pointed this out to the BMC.

Only possible if the majority of the use/evidence of use has been by locals. Unlikely to work for most crags, but yes, might work for the odd one or two

Don't even think about it. Let negotiators try to work it out first, before antagonising the landowners make negotiation difficult. You saw what happened at Wildcat when someone ignores the rules and climbed the fence. I took weeks of hard negotiations to restore the earlier negotiated access agreement.

What is required is that it is used by a "significant" number of locals. That doesn't prevent use by others or that locals must be in the majority.  The other question is what is meant by "local"? The terms are deliberately vague and each application must be decided on its merits.  These are not straightforward matters and this is not an easy solution to access issues, but the possibility is there if all the circumstances apply.  But you're right, it's probably not going to apply to most crags.

Surely the landowner must be fairly receptive to climbers as they were presumably happy to give permission for the dry tooling fest at Masson? We’re they paid for that or did they just allow it?

Happy to be corrected