UKC

I have been on a couple of retreats at Ulverston Buddhist temple and would like to go to a centre for a week or three, ideally Spain. Has anyone combined climbing and a Buddhist break? I am really more into mindfulness, which the Budhists seem cool with. 

You can meditate before during and after climbing.Mindfulness is a full time job.

Very true. I think that climbing is a very mindful activity, it forces you into the Now . Infact i do wonder if it appeals to people with mental issues because of this. When climbing people are mindful, and they like it. They think they like climbing, but in reality it is the minful they like.   However i am very much work in progress and would like to spend time with like minded folk.

I've haven't visited this place yet: http://www.ecodharma.com but it's at Abella de la conca, which apparently has some good sport climbing itself, and is certainly in an area full of great crags

It may be that some element of mindfulness is inevitable in climbing, and therefore in some sense necessary to enjoy it, but that's very different from saying that mindfulness itself is sufficient for enjoyment, which is what your post suggests.

I can't imagine I could enjoy tiddlywinks as much as climbing no matter how mindful I was while playing it.

There is no risk of death or injury in Tiddlywinks, is there, its that forces you into the Now. Its the risk that makes it mindful. It all depends how strong your ego/id is, maybe climbers have strong ego`s, maybe tiddlywinks players do not. We need a stronger force to bring us to minfulness.

It seems like you're suggesting that the climbing (or at least the risk element) is necessary to achieve the mindfulness. In which case speculating as to whether it's the mindfulness itself that is in some way enjoyable rather than the climbing that's needed to achieve it, seems a bit selective to suit your agenda. I enjoy climbing, and if mindfulness is a necessary element within that, then so be it.

I think you're just confusing different uses of the word Mindful.

I don't have a deep understanding of mindfulness, but from the bit I do know I can't describe the state of mind I'm in when climbing as mindful. It is full-pelt task-focused thinking, with attention totally controlled by the goal-oriented needs of the situation.

It's a bit different if I'm soloing a route I've done a million times, in which case I don't have to do any task-focused thinking and I can willfully switch my attention to the feel of the rock and the movement and enter what you could call a mindful state (might be similar in redpointing possibly? dunno as never done it). 

I agree that climbing is enjoyable because it brings you out of introspection and into the current moment -with attention on the sensory experience - because it's difficult and requires all your attention you tend to get into a state of 'flow'. Lots of people seem to use 'flow' and 'mindfulness' synonymously but to me they're very different (almost opposite) mental states. I'm not saying that my understanding is the correct one, but I'm interested in these mental states and think it's useful to  share a vocabulary that describes them.

In answer to your question: no idea.

I think there's a lot in what bedspring is saying - it doesn't have to be risk of death, anyone who redpoints at their limit or drills "silent feet" on a plastic wall is also brought into the now.

I used to swim for "fitness", and didn't much enjoy bashing out laps until I started to focus on technique and therefore swam more mindfully. Same with running. I think one of the reasons climbing grabbed me so strongly is that unlike those other sports (where not being mindful just slows you down a bit), in climbing you fall off - therefore mindfulness isn't something you have to intentionally incorporate, it's built in.

To quote from wikipedia: Mindfulness is the psychological process of bringing one's attention to experiences occurring in the present moment,[1][2][3] which can be developed through the practice of meditation and other training.[2][4][5] 

"full-pelt task-focused thinking, with attention totally controlled by the goal-oriented needs of the situation" is precisely that.

Thats interesting. I have climbed at Abella. I will need my glasses to read that page, which I have left at home , but thanks.

I promise I'm not arguing for the sake of it, but "through the practice of meditation and other training" is important. The fundamental character of meditation is that it is *not* goal-orientated thinking. The difference I'm getting at is that in the mindful state achieved through meditation, you are willfully directing attention from one's internal voice to present, sensory information (e.g. the breath). This allows one to experience (and to master, eventually) *the observer perspective* rather than being wrapped up inside the inner voice. In contrast, in 'flow' the internal voice is front and centre and one is necessarily completely wrapped up inside it. However, the content of what the inner voice is saying is all about really important sensory stuff that's happening right now, and isn't mulling over what the future looks like, or regretting the past. Normally, we're drifting aimlessly into and out of all sorts of introspection, which is why flow is a distinct mental state brought about by climbing, driving fast on windy roads, playing games of skill, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

As I say, I think climbing generates flow, whereas meditation generates mindfulness, and they are very distinct states with mindfulness characterised by the observer perspective and a total absence of goal oriented thinking.

I can only speak for myself.

Climbing "forces" me into the Now. I assume that the risk is a factor. I enjoy walking and easy climbing, just being in the Outdoors, but they do not give me that "feeling" that harder (for me) climbing gives me

Meditation enables me to find the Now, for myself, anytime anywhere.

That place at Abella looks good.

Tip of the day - Hold down control and slide the middle roller on your mouse up and down

I can see, I am healed Ta

I think you're focusing on one aspect of mindfulness, and stating that it's very different from another. 

Look at yoga - in the west we tend to see it as a physical practice, but the purpose of that practice is supposed to be to enter an active mindful state (as opposed to the passive mindful state encouraged by seated meditation).

They are very different, but both give you the break from thinking about what you'll do in the future, or what you've done in the past, which is the defining characteristic of mindfulness. 

Also, you missed "which can be" from the front of your quote, which rather changes its meaning. There are many ways to practice mindfulness, from meditation to sport to sitting in a beautiful place drinking in the view

I guess my problem with the term mindfulness is that it's used to mean a number of things which to me are sufficiently distinct to warrant different terms. But maybe for others, their experience of these (to me) distinct mental states are all much of a muchness and it seems like I'm splitting hairs or otherwise confusing a simple concept?

But there are different terms for different aspects of mindfulness. The two states you're describing - flow in a complex task and meditation on a single point of concentration - are not much of a muchness to any of us, but they are both examples of being in the present moment.

Think of it like climbing - bouldering and big wall aiding are very different, but they both involve starting at the bottom of something and physically moving yourself up it, so they're both climbing.

Thanks, that makes sense. Mindfulness is just a broader term than I thought and flow is just one example of it.

I liked your distinction. Mindfulness terminology is too broad if it includes completely externalising your perspective meditating and completely internalising your perspective climbing

Well feel free to invent your own terminology... as long as you don't try to redefine mindfulness I'm sure nobody will mind

Climbfulness