UKC

Hello, I'd like to go next summer to the alps for a week to climb gran paradiso and then mont blanc, both solo, guide costs are prohibitive for me.

My experience is a couple of 2.5ks, a 3k (monte perdido), and a couple months intense bouldering, solved grade 6c problems, but regularly level just below 6a. No crampons, ice axe, glaciar travel, snow hiking experience at all. Also no experience in climbing with rope, apart from a via ferrata I did with some friends. Fitness wise average, I'll train until summer to get in good shape.

Is there anywhere ideal in Europe where I could go for a couple of weeks to train and learn to use crampons, ice axe arrest, glaciar travelling, for not too high a cost? I'm based in Netherlands.

My understanding is biggest danger going solo to Alps is falling into a crevasse. Any other advice regarding my plan, skills to learn or things to keep in mind would be greatly appreciated.

Have a look on here for an IFMGA guide: https://www.bmg.org.uk/activity/alpinism/

Nothing in the Alps is going to come at a bargain price, so you may need to adjust what you're willing to spend or wait a while. My recommendation would be wait and learn snow craft properly first, enjoying some smaller summits, after a few seasons on the snow/ice then think again about bigger Alpine summits.

Might be a good idea to invest in a decent beginner's alpine course and get some friends who are willing to do the same things. If you're Dutch, both the NKBV and Mountain Network do decent ones.

Crossing glaciers on your own is asking for problems. 

Also don't neglect the rock fall problem, especially the Gouter Route on the Mont Blanc can be a shit show. 

I have a lot of alpine experience including several solo ascents of technically difficult 4000m mountains and I would not consider climbing either Mt Blanc or Gran Paradiso on my own.

Why? If you’ve soloed technical 4000m peaks why not solo Mont Blanc or Gran Paradiso. For a technically able person where’s the problem other than objective danger?

I have friends who have soloed it and whenever I've been on it there are several people soloing the peak, all of whom seemed very competent. For a fit and experienced mountaineer following the huge trail up from the gouter refuge has very little risk surely? 

I definitely wouldn't recommend it solo for anyone whose new to alpinism though

I'm not sure what you mean by "other than objective danger". For easy alpinism that is by far the majority of the danger. The normal routes on both mountains cross crevassed glaciers, and having put a foot through into a crevasse on both mountains (though admittedly not the normal routes), and having had several friends who have had bad crevasse falls, I would not go on them without a partner on the other end of a rope.

Of course each person can make their own assessment of the risk they are willing to take, but suggesting any kind of support for soloing these routes to someone who advertises their bouldering grades when talking about climbing Mt Blanc seems like a bad idea.

There are on average several deaths a year in the Grand Couloir on Mont Blanc:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Couloir_(Mont_Blanc)

Thank you for the replies. I put my bouldering grade because I understand there's a couple places in the routes where a bit of climbing has to be done to get to the peak, so I wanted to know if my skill is sufficient. For the rest of it, I know both of these peaks are considered a hike, through the standard routes.

The Gouter couloir as I understand theres not much about it apart from crossing it early in the morning, crossing it fast and pray the mountain gods dont hit you with a big rock.

I'll try to find an affordable introductory course to alpinism, if anybody has any suggestions it would be amazing. My budget as I mentioned is really low. I'll look into the NKBC and Mountain Network as suggested, I'm based in Netherlands but not dutch.

As for the crevasse risk - Following a well trodden route (gran paradiso via vittorio emmanuele, mt blanc via gouter), how unlucky would I have to get to fall into one, if soloing? 

Those moves are more like climbing really steep stairs than actual climbing, so that's not going to be the problem.

True, but this goes for most easy alpinism, and I hate the 'considered a hike' trend which seems to be pervasive when talking about F/PD mountaineering. Even though the technical part of it is easy, do you have the skills to assess situations on the ground when the weather turns? Do you know how to assess glacier conditions? Do you know how to get yourself down when you get scared? What if you end up in a white-out?

Low probability (although growing with current summer conditions), high consequence. Are you willing to take the risk? 

I would really, really recommend to follow a course before doing this kind of stuff solo. It's also just way more fun to do it with a partner.

Make a spread sheet of all the costs you're going to run to do it solo. There's a high likelihood it would be similar or more than following a course. It might not get you up these two mountains but it gives you the skills to do so and might give you some friends to do it with next year to boot. 

I totally agree about the boulderer and a stupid post, but I was referring to yourself. If having soloed technical 4000ers you must have faced objective dangers (I also class going through an unseen snowbridge as objective danger) easily equal to soloing MB or GP, so why the distinction?

Your bouldering grade is irrelevant, what matters is fitness, hill fitness, being able to do say 5-10m vertical ascent a minute continuously, with enough spare mental capacity to consider footwork, crampon technique and crevasses. Then the same downhill, going up is only half the battle!

PS. Given lean conditions and thin snow bridges I wouldn't solo it. Most alpine routes are much more fragile now than 20-30 years ago, the game is arguably becoming riskier. 

if you pay for austrian alpine club membership (AAC, £50 annual), they have some very reasonable subsidised courses in the alps. mountain rescue insurance is also included in the price. The downside is that membership runs January to January only.

I havent read all the other replies, but if you are young enough you should also have a look at Conville courses. They do some alpine prep courses in the UK and also some in chamonix.

best of luck

Hello-  I was lucky to do the Conville Alpine course back in the day which was great- but learnt lots from folks in my local mountaineering club many of whom were experienced alpinists.

Training with an UIAGM guide is invaluable- much more important than shiny kit.

Sounds like there are other subsidised courses available- 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Alpine-Mountaineering-Essential-Knowledge-Alpinist...

https://www.jcmt.org.uk/courses

Thank you everyone for the advices and plenty of information, all of it has been really helpful. I'll look for an alpine course and hopefully find someone to go with next summer instead of solo.

I did the Gouter route on Mont Blanc with my son, about ten days ago.  It seems to me that there are two risky bits.  One is the grand couloir, where you may get hit by stonefall.  I suppose that it doesn't matter how good you are or how experienced you are, it is difficult to manage this risk.  everybody seems to cross the dodgy bit unroped so you are no less safe on your own than if you are with a partner.  Experience in moving over the wet, snowy, rocky, muddy ground as quickly as possible will help but that is all.  The main thing to do is get across before mid-morning, when the rocks start to come down.  Incidentally, we didn't and ended up having a sheep sized boulder thunder down a few metres away from us.  It was a nasty moment.

The other bit is the summit climb from the Gouter hut.  Other people who have posted here are right - the obvious risks are few.  The route is not technically demanding and there were about 10% of the people climbing alone.  When we did it, we summited by 0700 and were back at the refuge for 1000 hrs.  The peak was thinning out considerably by that time, with very few parties still on the slopes.  I do think though that it is a long way, it is very high (hope people are impressed by my knowledge!) and very cold.  The weather can deteriorate and is likely to be windy / bitterly cold at best.  The route has had to snake around a bit in recent years to avoid some big crevasses that have opened up.  Some of the terrain is actually very steep but is mitigated by well-worn zig zags.  If it goes well, then things will be fine.  If you encounter a problem such as catching a crampon on those steep zig zags or succumbing to altitude or lack of calories, it is things like experience / knowledge / a partner / fitness etc that provide a safety net.  If you have very few elements of that safety net then things can start to go even more wrong even more quickly.  There are likely to be other parties around but they won't necessarily want their bucket list day spoiled by having to look after someone else.  If you end up going slowly because of a problem, I think you could find yourself pretty alone.

I suppose what I am saying is that I don't think that big accidents are often the result of a single incident of misfortune.  They are generally an incident of misfortune which comes after a series of poor decisions or calculated risks, so that when that misfortune comes along, it has significant consequences, which you would sometimes barely even notice.  Approaching a climb like Mont Blanc with no partner or experience is taking quite a risk, which means that the consequences of an incident of misfortune are likely to be significant.