UKC

I was in Chamonix this summer and as a warm-up for Mont Blanc I climbed the Chere Couloir (though only past the crux pitch, the last pitch we ran out of time for). I've climbed a lot of WI4 and long multi-pitch WI3, and am getting into winter climbing this season with some M3 and maybe M4 routes.

I might go to Chamonix again next year and I'm wondering if there are any routes that spring to your minds as a logical next step to get more experience deposits toward some day attempting NF of the Matterhorn.

The only thing slowing you down is your imagination. 

I'm in a similar boat as you goals wise. I thought the Argentiere N Faces seemed to offer up some interesting options. Best in spring though, not summer. Been thinking about the Swiss Route on Les Courtes and the Ginat on Les Doites in particular (and in that order) as  good routes for gaining experience for the classic N Faces.

That's a nice thought, but for me at least I am / have been slowed down by other things - ability, money and equipment or lack of it, climbing accidents I've had, luck, weather, other commitments, partners, fear, other life experiences, health

Yeah for some long ice and mixed routes I figured I'd have to go a different time of year, maybe I could swing late spring. Thanks for the suggestions

You wouldn't be the only one. 

If you’re interested in the Cham area, get a copy of the Batoux book (Mont Blanc - the 100 finest routes) and work through that. You’ll get lots of ideas for mixed routes there and they’re arranged in rough order or difficulty. Just make sure you supplement the topos with other sources such as Damilano’s Snow Ice and Mixed guide books and Camp2Camp as the Batoux topos can be pretty high level.

Classic easier routes include the two Contamine ADs on the Triangle (good for practicing moving together  if conditions are decent) and Tour Ronde  NF. Outside the MB range, there’s the Gran Paradiso NF. There is then a multitude of goulotte style mixed routes but they are mostly autumn and spring affairs these days and even then it’s been hard to get them in condition in recent years (same for the Matterhorn NF by the way). All good training but typically less engaging as you tend to ab down the goulotte line.

The Swiss Route is mostly snow but worth doing for the experience of getting up and down a big route. The Lagarde Direct on the Droites is harder, more interesting, has a bit of mixed and requires decisions about logistics (skis or no skis? up and over or up and back down?). It’s easier than the Ginat so is a good stepping stone and has been in climbable condition in recent years, whereas the Ginat has not. Incidentally, I would consider the Ginat to be a classic NF route rather than a training route. I’m told the Dent Blanche NF is also well worth doing. By the time you’re doing these routes though you should have enough experience to judge things for yourself in terms of conditions and objectives.

Classic rock or mostly rock routes are also well worth doing to practice moving together and generally being fast. The Frendo Spur is the most obvious one.

If you didn’t have time to do the last technical pitch of the Chere, you weren’t climbing fast enough so should focus on speeding up among other things. As a guideline, if you’re looking at doing the Matterhorn NF, you should be able to do something like the Chere, continue to the top of the Triangle and ab off or carry on to the Tacul summit and walk off, all comfortably lift to lift.

This might not sound very helpful but I think by the time you have enough experience to do the Matterhorn NF you’ll know it. 

The Migot Spur on the Chardonet would be a step in the right direction.

Interesting comments and insight from Misha, for me the step up from Chere Couloir to Matterhorn NF or the Ginat is massive because of logistics for descent. The Chere is very low risk because of the proximity to the cable car and those bomber descent/belay anchors. From personal experience I'd suggest the following as a bit of a progression:

Albinoni on the Tacul (harder than Chere but safe descent, then cable car)

Pellissier Gully on the Tacul (M5/M6, longer than the guide book 220m and descend over the back)

Pettit Viking on Pte de Domino (check out the Ginat on your way out)

.........wait for fabulous conditions, then

Matterhorn NF or Ginat

Finally, consider climbing these routes from Mid September to end October, often good conditions for walking around (rather than skiing) and climbing. Hope you enjoy it and stay safe.......Jeff

If you ran out of time on the Cherie, which in alpine equivalence is like a half day road side route, then you need to consolidate and/or look for longer easier grade routes. 

Sure, there’s a massive gap between the two and it would take most people many years to build up the required skillset and experience (assuming a few weeks in the Alps each year). I suspect the OP appreciates this. Your list is a good one but I’d suggest a lot more routes around that level.

I’ll admit to not having done either route, though I’ve abbed down the Chere a couple of times after doing other routes on the Triangle. Would love to do the Matterhorn but haven’t been able to catch it in condition the last few years. To my mind, the differences are length of route; difficulty / how much technical ground there is; protection (I gather the Matterhorn NF has little gear available); difficulty of descent; altitude; which all adds up to overall seriousness and commitment. 

Just make sure (unlike us) you absolutely know the descent route! Or like us, in the clag, you might end up on the wrong glacier!!! That was a long day BTW. 

Chere can be hard to finish in good time due to other people above you moving slowly too. It's a crowded route and it's hard to climb past people when all their debris gets funneled right at you. I've done it a few times and only got to set my own pace once, so I wouldn't be too quick to judge based on that route's times alone.

Sure. I assumed it wasn’t due to other parties (simply because if I didn’t finish a route due to traffic, I’d mention it) but I may be wrong. Anyway, the point about going to the summit and back comfortably bin to bin is relevant. Perhaps one to try another time! I wouldn’t climb the Chere below other parties by the way, it’s pretty narrow and ice blocks hurt...

It definitely was a combination of that and also being too slow. Definitely have more work to do with speed on multipitch ice climbing. Also getting a full rope tossed into my lap while climbing the crux didn't help that much. Safety-wise we waited until they were enough above us that we thought we could climb a variation of the middle of the route to avoid debris.

Thanks for some great suggestions. I can probably work on similar things in Norway too before heading out to the Alps. Some long WI4/M5 multipitches in Hemsedal spring to mind.

Indeed. First time on it had a soloist toss a rope on us. We waited until he had passed by, and then a bit longer until the dust settled from a serac fall off the Tacul that nearly crushed him. Exciting day!

Another question I'll pose here to not clutter the forum:

Are the spring snow conditions around Chamonix and close to it generally such that bringing skis and skins are the best way to go about it? I'm thinking the latter half of April this year.

I spend most of the winter ski mountaineering in Norway but still if I can avoid skiing I'll prefer that. But if the snow is deep and not packed there might be no way around it.

Your question seems to have been comprehensively answered, so I have no guilt in suggesting that the logical next step from the Chèré is to ab off and slog back up to the Midi

I was very happy when I realized after getting up Mont Blanc the second to last day before leaving that I wouldn't need to get up that damn ridge again for a while. I was up there pretty much every day for 1.5 weeks after the lift opened in July.

Surely the logical step (or steps) is to finish the route by continuing to the summit of Mont Blanc du Tacul.

Skis are certainly handy - not least because you can go skiing or ski touring if the mixed climbing isn’t in or the weather isn’t good enough. So definitely take skis for a spring trip. Mixed conditions have been poor the last 2-3 years and I can’t see it being great this spring (it might be ok). So being able to get on the planks instead of festering in a hostel waiting for conditions or weather can save your trip!

Whether to take skis for a particular route will depend on where the route is. We walked in for the Lagarde Direct (the day before) but that was because we didn’t want to climb with skis. The shorter routes up there like Frendo Ravanel would have been easy enough to get to off the first lift (much nicer to be able to ski down at the end of the day though). However now that won’t be an option as the GM top station is closed.

Most of the routes off the Geant glacier are too far to walk to in deep snow and, crucially, you really don’t want to be wading around in snow up there after finishing a route - it’s a long way down even in summer and will take much longer in winter, so skiing out is much better. Bear in mind that the lifts finish much earlier in spring and slogging back up in deep snow will take ages, so you won’t make the last lift.

So generally speaking the ski in, ski out approach is a no brainer for routes where you ab back down the same line.

Consider going in the second half of March to get better snow conditions for the descents - the James Bond track down to the valley would probably still be feasible for example, saving you on a walk down from Montenvers. The mixed might be in better shape as well but who knows...

I was considering mid to late April because that's when we have easter holiday here, so I could use 3 vacation days and get 10 days in total off to go somewhere. But if that's the usual state of mixed climbing there maybe I'm better off staying here in Norway, might be better conditions here actually.

I've heard a couple too many stories of wallowing through endless insecure powder in 'exciting' positions to ever want to contemplate that. Scared off for life!

I've done it four times after routes on the Tacul Triangle without any issues, but it was in summer a long time ago when abbing down wasn't the done thing.

Gabarou Albinoni is harder but still easily abseilable.

Contamine Mazeaud Rectifie, similar difficulty but sustained front-pointing 

The Ginat would be a huge step up, both in difficulty and commitment.

Keep an eye on the Chamoniarde mountain conditions updates. There should be reasonably regular updates by March - April. That will give you an idea of what’s doable. Keep your plans as flexible as possible, that’s the name of the game. If you take skis, you can always go ski touring. Or just stay at home as you say...

In a similar place - looking at a spring trip (with skis) to step up from things like the Chere and Scottish IV. Seems to be broadly two directions - short but harder tech stuff, i.e. the TD/4 ice and mixed e.g. Petit Viking, Gabarrou-Albinoni, Frendo-Ravanel, Pelissier, or the bigger faces, e.g. Argentiere NF routes such as the Swiss on Les Courtes. There also a host of easier but longer and often more committing routes at AD/D such as the Migot spur, Tour Ronde NF, Whymper/Couturier couloirs on Aiguille Verte, Gran Paradiso NF. In terms of speed, consider also that the Chere has in situ tat for belays up to above the crux - so if you are slow there, you will be even slower on routes where there is less in the way of that.

Having been out and around in March and April I would usually be looking to use skis as it will make your life so much easier and is fun, unless there was a specific reason not too (don't want to climb up and over with them and/or the walk in is short and tracked).

Key will be to monitor how conditions develop - snowfall and temperature fluctuations over the next month or two will heavily impact how the ice forms and what sort of conditions are in play come March/April.

Yeah I guess I already knew that, just didn't want to assume anything about snow conditions in mountain ranges I'm not as well acquainted with as at home.

I'm much speedier nowadays on ice in Norway so here's hoping it'll translate to the Alps after the winter, been doing some 45 minute and the odd 30 minute pitch recently.