UKC

A mate and I are planning on going out to the alps around christmas to ski and we are planning on wild camping (student budget). I spent a few nights bivying in wales last winter and loved it. I know the alps are gonna be alot colder, down to -20 -30 so we are looking at getting some decent gear to do it. We have got contacts out there so we have a back up if it all goes tits up.

Anyone done it before? I know quite alot of people have slept in the back of cars?

Any thoughts?

In reply to pej09:

Done three or four nights at the top of the Vallee Blanche in April. Not really much help to you as I suppose it's much later in the season and much higher. The only thing I'd say was, I've spent enough time in Russia and Kazakhstan to have opinions about cold, and it was, indeed, cold.

Five season down bag was enough for me, but only just. For my climbing partner a big expedition five season bag kinda wasn't.

We did see bits of the Wildest Dream being filmed though. That was cool.

You asked for thoughts - well, here's one. Constant cold will grind your morale down and down and down, and you'll need stupid amounts of calories. You'll end up craving heat, light, food and unbruised fingertips so much that I'd bet you a pile of hot cheese and potato that you'll spend in the pub what you save on your bedding.

Good luck, though - it sounds an awesome plan.

Y

In reply to Yanchik: thanks for the info... any idea what sort of temperature it was and what sort of tent did you use?

In reply to pej09:

Terra Nova Trisar Convertible. They don't make them any more, but they're kinda like the Quasar IIRC. Efficient modern inner & flysheet mountaineering tent.

I'd love to know what the temperatures were. I wouldn't hazard a guess, because what temps feel like depends greatly on activity levels, state of mind, clothing and humidity. There'll be people on here with serious arctic camping experience who can tell you more relevant stuff, if you can get them to.

Y

In reply to pej09: Where are you planning on camping,the reason I ask is how are you going to get there,Skiis or Snowshoes?

In reply to pej09:

I've done the car thing in Cham a couple of times. In my experience you may as well fork out the dollar for a hostel rather than try and camp. As someone else said, you will get colder and colder and more and more depressed. Also, if you don't already have the gear you'll spend just as much on buying it as you would on a week in the Vagabond or similar.

In reply to Fickalli:

Good call in my opinion...wild camping is miserable in cold weather...a hostel also means warmth, beer and potential to score...!

In reply to pej09: Apart from only 8 hours of daylight (if the sun is shining), the logistics could well spoil the trip. You won't be allowed to camp in the ski areas, the lift closure sweep teams will move you down and won't discuss it. Anywhere in the valleys is private property and a tent will attract attention; to avoid this you'd have to carry a lot of gear, food, fuel at high altitudes using either skins or snowshoes, and that's more tiring than you think. Lets assume you get to eat, boil water (from snow) and sleep, next morning, boil water!!,you then have to leave your tent in a exposed place and walk back to your car in what will be an odd place that will attract attention from the Police or thieves with a lot of valuable kit inside.

Ski all day, good, and then return to try and find tent in pitch black dark assuming the weather is good and it hasn't snowed all day and buried your tent to the point where you can't find it. This sounds like a ridiculous exaggeration but I've been in car parks and people can't find their car in daylight after a heavy snowfall and they can see the footpaths!! Find tent, boil water etc...and see article re CO poisoning in a tent.

http://www.headbaby.com/water-1.htm

Sleeping in a car doesn't attract attention but the other posters have pointed out the drawbacks there, but bear in mind everything you do before and after ski-ing will be in the dark and it will be very very cold.

If you do succeed, you've got to write an article on the experience. Good luck

In reply to Yanchik:

I did 3-4 nights in the vallee blanche in Feb -- weather fantastic, blue skies, little to no wind... but it was cold. It dropped to just below -35 when the sun went down. Slept in a Black Diamond firstlight, clothed, inside an ME Everest bag. Was just about warm enough. Finished the trip with the cosmique arete -- which was real tough with 15kgs on the back in -30 after 3 nights out!!! You're dead right about the effect of constant cold...

To go into a bit more detail... The area we are planning on camping is merible, 3 valleys, there is alot of tree cover in the area so i was thinking that it would be relatively easy to find a well hidden spot that was away from any piste so as not to attract the attention of the groomers.

i have got a mate who is going to be doing a season out there doing bar work so we will have somewhere to store our kit and dry off or warm up and if the weather gets mental we will have somewhere to stay. We will probably take down the tent every night so as not to attract any attention.

A car is not really an option as we want to fly out, we are both under 20 so car hire is not an option

we are going to get some more practice sessions in wales and scotland before we fully commit

In reply to pej09:

If you do this, make sure to put your duvet jacket over the bag rather than wearing it so it doesn't compress and thus keeps you warmer. Also eat something with lots of fats in it before you go to sleep, and do a couple of sit-ups in your bag to warm it up.

Good luck if you try it!

In reply to pej09: Seen a couple of posts re fuel for stoves in cold and altitude, they look useful. Last thing, carry mobile phones and keep them charged and maybe even a flare. If the weather turns real bad and they close slopes with white outs, you just might need this as a last resort. I also know when you're short of money insurance seems overpriced, I would advise not to skimp on this, if you do need a rescue, the French MR will pursue you for the money. The BMC for a week is good value.

Good luck and write it up!

In reply to pej09:

Am I missing something here? Why not just ask your mate if you can kip on his floor in your sleeping bag for a few nights?

In reply to pej09: any thoughts ?
adventure : any enterprise where the outcome is unknown.
at the same time as you are hopefully doing this i will be on a family holiday in the three valleys with the wife and kids. we ll be waited on hand and foot, weather permitting i ll hopefully get a couple of day tours in, generally it will all be fun and very predictable. i hope the day comes when my boys say dad we wont be home at xmas we re off to see mad john in meribel, o.k. tarquin where will you stay ? oh we're going to camp.
if the weather is with you it will be dry, very cold, and ace. if the weather is against you, snowy damp cold, it will be f&*(ng miserable. either way you will learn something about how to look after yourself.i think it was stephen venables who said "any fool can be miserable".
they seem to be out of fashion but fleece romper suits or salopettes are ideal tent wear. silk liner for your bag cheaply ups the rating. as you ve no doubt worked out any gear you buy will last for a fair few trips. barring tent fires. but thats another story. actually two.

In reply to pej09:

Why go to the Alps?

Could you not go to a cheaper destination where you can get room plus lift pass for the same price as lift pass in the Alps?

Also, its worth speccing out how much you would have to spend on gear, and how much extra you would need to spend on food and fuel, if you wanted to camp.

My opinion is: if you want to camp, then camp, and invest in the skills and kit to do it comfortably.
But if you want to ski in a ski resort, camping (and keeping your tent hidden from the authorities) seems a lot of extra work.

I admire your sense of adventure. Have you been to the alps in winter? It will be an experience but I have my doubts that you will be able to hide from the numerous organisations and authorities and yet stay close enough to use the lifts all the time. Good luck. Admire your trying.


In reply to pej09:

In reply to pej09:

Do you want to ski or have the camping experience? Doing both the way you want to do it is a really bad idea. I have bivvied in winter in/around Chamonix, in the railway tunnels etc., but only with a car, where you can chuck all the stuff in it in the morning, keep your skis in it, and sit/eat in it. Without a car it will be a nightmare and you'll probably get your gear nicked.

Camping wise it isnt that cold (not compared to N America or Him's that time of year), need a good sleeping bag (or 2 not so good), balaclava etc. At this temp gas will be fine and easier than MSR. Not so different to bivvying in Wales you did last winter. Type of tent doesnt matter in a valley in winter as long as you can get it down and up quickly.

Best advice already given: use your mates hospitality and kip on his floor - even if there is no room it will be a lot easier and you will get more skiing in. Otherwise do something more sensible/adventurous where a tent makes sense, like snowshoe the TMB or something. That might be worth writing about - somehow I dont see why camping in a ski resort is worth an article!!!!

In reply to nickinscottishmountains: my mate is doing a season but they are very strict in his accommodation about people staying over apparently. plus i wanted to try something different that hasn't really been done much before

In reply to pej09: thank you very much for all the advice. I went out to meribel last easter when the conditions were quite varied. Had some very warm days and some cold ones. The idea of being able to travel over a pretty large area with a 3 valees lift pass was quite attractive. In terms of taking the whole snowboard mountaineering thing further i thought it would be a relatively tame step to try it out in an area where we had various options if things turned bad. Giving us a much better idea of what it would be like to winter camp in such environments.

The task of evading the authorities may be quite a challenge although having spent a bit of time on google maps scouring satellite photos there seams to be a lot of forestry in the area and we have the option of using the free busses to get lower down the valley so finding some out of the way spots shouldn't be impossible.

In terms of the gear im picking it up at relatively low cost through ebay and ukc for sale/wanted. The other reason we need the flexibility of wild camping is that we are planning on hitch hiking from Grenoble up to Meribel and then down to les deux alpes to link up with a uni ski trip.

With the snow fall looking relatively good in the uk at the moment we should be able to get some practice in up in scotland so we will have a clearer idea of the challenges and if in fact it will actually be worth it

In reply to aostaman:


They won't, the mountain rescue in France is a free public service outside the ski pistes. Having said that it's best not to try the service out!

In reply to the OP:

Camping when skiing is a less than pleasant as at the end of a hard days skiing you're likely to be both tired and wet, in a tent you won't either dry out or warm up. Even if you are keen enough to try it anyway chances are you'll spend more in cafés and such like. I've done it sleeping in a car for weekends and it was ok but this was later in spring and lower down than Meribel. Skiing for a week is a different matter and renting a studio isn't that dear. When you compare your total costs, flying, ski-hire (?), and lift passes and add what you'll save by doing your own cooking and not needing to warm up in bars you don't save that much. That's always been my conclusion anyway.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Putting frozen footwear on is a barrel of laughs. Although boarding footwear should be easier to get in and out of than downhill gear.
And once your feet have reached the temperature of your footwear, you can't feel anything anyway. Even when I was an impoverished student I never contemplated camping in the alps in winter. And nor did a bunch of people much tougher than me. We did camp in Scotland for skiing - until we found a disused house....
Still - it's always good to get some experience!

One of the reasons I am considering camping as an option after watching a recently released film by Jeremy Jones in which they travel out to alaska and spend a month living in tents on a glacier hiking and riding lines.

this is the trailer
youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5jGnXOFgc&

In reply to pej09:

Of course you can do it but the question is whether it's going to be fun I'd say it was more on for cross country or mountaineering skiing, just like bivvying in the snow, but if you are downhill skiing (or boarding) in ski stations it's problematic, especially with no car to warm up in.

As you say you are meeting up with a group afterwards then maybe you could do a cross country session before - there are plenty of routes to do in the area you are going to and guide books are available - which will end you up near where you want to meet the others? You'd have to carry everything but it would be a good experience.

This site has info, click on "en" for English then ski-touring. There is a network of free unguarded hut, a bit like bothies - you'll need to prepare the trip well though as they are often more or less covered in snow and given the environment you don't want to get lost and benighted!

http://www.camptocamp.org/

In reply to pej09:

Just watched your clip... if you are as good as those people then it's us that should be asking you for advice!

If not, don't forget that in these sorts of films they always make it look easy and rarely sure the sheer effort, experience and logistics needed.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

For "sure" read "show" in the last line.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

What about going in march or april? Still be plenty of snow but you'll get 12 hour days instead of 8 = More skiiing/boarding, warmer temps, and the ability to do proper backcountry trips rather than camping in some French guys back yard. If you go in January pay the extra for a room and enjoy the apres ski instead!

In reply to pej09:

sounds miserable...

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Thanks for that link Bruce it looks really useful.