UKC

I'm sure this has been asked at least 2 times but I can't reply to this older thread with my question;
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/dragons_vs_totems-758268

I will be doing mostly easier Peak grit routes and have old Flexi Friends from 1996 that I should probably retire. Dragons appeal as they are a good bit cheaper, dual axle, made in Wales, and easier to resling.

It sounds like Totems win in smaller sizes. Is there a consensus on the size where Dragons make sense over Totems?

I was thinking Dragon 4, 3, 2.  Then Totem in Purple and Yellow to start with.  However Totem 1.25 in green looks to size up like the green Dragon 2.

Which way to go?!

Personally I've got black, blue, yellow Totem and the rest in Dragons. I could be tempted to replace the purple Dragon with a Totem but I wouldn't go any bigger. 

I replaced my quadcams with the smallest 5 totems and then dragons from there up, but I liked the totems so much I ended up with a full set and use them in preference to dragons if I can

Similar to the above, I use a full set of Totems and just carry a blue (size 5?) Dragon for anything bigger.

If they all disappeared I would buy exactly the same again.

Whatever size you draw the line at, you'll find yourself at some point wishing you had a totem in that size. 

I have black, blue, yellow totem. Can see the appeal of purple. I'd probably stop there but then things like the pocket on 3 pebble slab take a really good green cam, and I know I'd rather have a totem on that runout. 

If stopping the totems lower allows you to afford a black one as well, id go for that. 

I have a whole rack of totems, the same in C4 down to grey; x4's and c3's below there.

I pull the totem out first on doubles / rack the totem only up to red. Sometimes the purple Camalot comes out first. On grit i'd take totem over C4 for red. Orange is so floppy it's really only not annoying in horizontal breaks where you want the stem to bend over.

I've got a set of dragons and a set of totems. I buck the trend and usually pick dragons first. However, I climb a lot of Lakes mountain routes so really value the extendable sling to save on quickdraws on long pitches, and find they rack a bit more easily so I can take a little more rack. If I was mainly climbing on grit both of these advantages would be negated. 

Since moving to Cornwall noted that my Totems are particularly sensitive to salt. 
Always rinsed them when I noticed they got wet but even sea spray that you hardly notice will seize up a totem very quickly. Never been a problem with dragons. 
I guess the totem has closer contact for all the moving metal parts so is more susceptible. 
Bit of a shock when you find you can’t place that essential piece on your first climb of the day) 
Only a consideration if you climb on sea cliffs and are not a’dump your kit in a heap and think about it when you next go climbing ‘ sort of climber.

When I next replace I’ll go with Dragons. ( and try to wash off salt more consistently) 

When I got back from Norway last summer, with some time spent close to salt water, I noticed that my BD and Metolius cams had some light rust on the end of the axles, and my DMMs & Totems didn't. 

I was informed in a discussion on here that while DMM & Wild Country use stainless axles the Americans use carbon steel. That explains the difference with the DMMs - but apparently Totem use carbon steel too, so either it's a slightly more corrosion resistant carbon steel than the BD & Metolius use or I just got lucky.

You got lucky. They both rust, but totems are the most susceptible. It's one of the reasons they were not as popular originally in the UK. They also have tighter tolerances, so they'll sieze a sooner.

Thanks everyone. 

Seems like personal preference from all to not the bigger one or two, but start small.

Good points on stainless. I guess it's what you'd expect from a Welsh based company! I live about as far from sea as possible and look after my kit carefully so hopefully not an issue.

With a mind to budget and the above I think I'll pick up a Dragon 4 and maybe 3 (gold and red) at under £60 a go, and Totems as soon as need and budget allow.

I do notice this a bit too, my kit tends to just get slung back in my bag till the next time. But I have noticed a bit of surface rust just on the little springs on one or two of my Totems.

I still love them. Especially the smaller sizes. I've nearly got a full rack (up to Red) but think i should have just bought another black instead of red lol. Maybe carry 2 black, 2 blue, then additional cams be it Totems or Dragons etc. I do really rate them.

totems have such a bite on the rock , and the comforting asymmetric shape that when I place the black one I know if I go south past it at high speed it will be there. 

very reassuring and worth the price 

When you give up your "Flexi Friends from 1996", I could use them to replace my 1988/9 Friends

I took the plunge a year or so ago and replaced most of my cams. I got Dragons from green upwards and then I got BD Z4s below that (only three because £). I like a narrow head in the smaller sizes becasue the squarer aspect ratio feels more stable and easier to place in smaller cracks.

I've used a friend's Totems a few times and love them, but I do recommend the Z4s too.

I use original Aliens, the narrowness of the head (and that the black alien was the smallest cam?) means they fit in a lot of places other cams don't.

About to be retired, cams getting a bit sloppy on the axel

We can start a museum and add them to my CAMP hex's that are allegedly vintage now!

I found a spare purple Spectre snap gate crab.  Maybe that's a sign to buy a matching Totem?!

Ended up going shopping.  Outside said RRP is going up quite a lot soon (£115?!) so in the spirit of long term savings, ended up picking up green and purple totems.

Had a play on the rock and they are indeed nice to place, bite really well and feel very secure.  Great in horizontal cracks on grit. Impressed!

Already want a yellow.  In before the price hike?

Yikes, that's getting a bit daft with the pricing. How can you justify a >30% uplift? Totems are nice but they aint £115 nice. 

The following could be controversial, but it depends on how much climbing you intend to do, how hard you are pushing, and your budget. 

If you climb a lot, and on grit, I would get the Dragons without a doubt. 

I have a set of each and the Dragons come to the crag every time and the 'silverware' Totems only on special occasions (usually limestone). 

I love the Totems for all the reasons mentioned above, but something often overlooked is their durability. The fact you can resling or repair the trigger is insignificant, as in my experience the stem is the first to go and that cannot be repaired.

The simple action of placing/removing Totems can wear the stem wires (especially on rough rock) as they are vulnerably located on the outside. Despite being used sparingly I've had to retire several Totems (with considerable lower mileage than my Dragons) in great looking condition because the stem wires got too frayed. On the other hands the Dragons get a hammering, year after year, fallen on, taken on sea cliffs and still going strong for a fraction of the cost.

I'm gonna stick my neck out here, dragons plus the new Alien X's with extendable slings would probably be my new go-to if I wanted something specifically narrow and lightweight with an extendable sling to supplement on non limestone routes. Limestone I'll always reach for the superior holding power of the totem.

Interesting article on Inglesport on Totems - summary - good ethics and great product especially in the smaller sizes, with some durability issues (as raised above, thanks!).

https://www.inglesport.com/totem-cams-why-we-support-them/

Needlesport confirm on their site the new RRP is £115. Outside currently have decent stock levels at £81, and also confirm RRP hike when these are sold through so I doubled down and got blue and yellow, as I will be on limestone as well as grit.

£81 sounds like a good price as, according to the UKC review of Totems, they cost £68 in 2015. Adjusting for inflation, that would be £94 today (still a fair way off the new RRP).