UKC

Why do harness manufacturers create such puny insignificant rear gear loops. It's like they get bored after the first two. Can anyone suggest a good harness with enough space for a Gogarth rack but not being as bulky as a big wall harness

In reply to dinodinosaur:

I rate Arcteryx harnesses for that - the relatively long, horizontal-ish gear loops seem to be able to swallow a lot. It’s the main reason I swapped from DMM’s harnesses (with their semi-circular loops) years ago. The very rear loop is just some thin tape but quite wide too. Current one is an AR395 (or something like that) and I find it fine for a big Gogarth-esque rack. If taking a truly massive rack then might need to start clipping krabs to one another but that would the case with any ‘normal’ harness. 

In reply to dinodinosaur: I know some people don’t like them but I use a bandolier for quickdraws and slings, leaves room on the harness for plenty of gear. I also find if I try and cram too much on a harness it feels heavy and uncomfortable. 

In reply to Martin Haworth:

A bandolier also has the advantage of making it easier to dump some weight should you find yourself in the sea!

I've never tried one myself though. Does anyone have recommendations or warnings about particular models or features?

In reply to Luke90:

If traversing in at sea level, for example, I tend to do just that for that same reason. But I fall into the camp of not liking having stuff swinging about on a bandolier/sling when actually climbing (especially if it’s less than vertical which is well annoying, to me at least) but that’s a personal thing. That said, occasionally in winter I’ve used a BD bigwall double bandolier chestrig thing which is good.

I’d suggest any wide (so probably nylon) sling would be perfect. I remember Andy Kirkpatrick once saying somewhere that if you can’t handle the discomfort of using a sling as a bandolier then alpinism isn’t for you! Not that we’re talking alpinism and that isn’t aimed at you.

Final option, if carrying a rucksack, is to use the rucksack straps which can sometimes work well in my experience to keep some kit up high, readily accessible, but without swinging in front of you when it gets slabby.

In reply to Mike D:

A bandolier is fine if you're on vertical-ish rock. If it's notably steep or notably slabby it's a pain in the arse and definitely to be avoided as the gear either gets in your way or disappears behind you uselessly.

Far better IMO to have a good harness racking system so you know exactly where to find any piece at any time.

In reply to john arran:

Agreed. That was a point I was trying to make, perhaps not very eloquently  

In reply to dinodinosaur:

Clip one quick draw to the gear loop, then rack  your other draws to its top crab. Same on the other side.

In reply to dinodinosaur:

I admit I haven't tried one yet, but Ocean Twists appear to have plentiful and big gear loops, and are on my list to look at whenever I'm next in the market for that sort of thing

In reply to dinodinosaur:

The DMM ones have seven loops, but I second the idea of racking quickdraws on a quickdraws, something I've only done at Gogarth. You can put all the slingdraws around your shoulder to give more space on the harness too. 

I hate bandoliers.

In reply to Luke90:

I use a simple bandolier of knotted 6mm accessory cord threaded through a short length of tubular tape to try and stop it cutting into shoulder. Easy to clip gear. It has a few old wedges with single drilled hole (sometimes called spuds). I only have a small rack and it's sometimes useful at the belay as an extra sling or if normal nuts used up. Also prusiking. Another advantage is the gear can easily be transferred to the other side to prevent jamming in some chimneys.

In reply to dinodinosaur:

Wild Country Session Harness has good gear loops

In reply to dinodinosaur:

DMM renegade is the only one I've found that doesn't end up a mess. I like having stuff separated out so 7 loops is a must have for me. 

Have climbed with one of them full on big wall bandoliers that a partner swears by. It actually does make sense for efficient alternate leads at somewhere like gogarth, especially with the clip on mini bag for a bit of water and snacks, but I never learned to like the feel of it.

The lower loops are useless because anything on them ends up behind you. The extra ones at chest level are good for a ton of gogarth sized wires and smaller cams, leaving the harness for pretty much just draws.

In reply to dinodinosaur:

Back when I was most active at Gogarth I used a DMM Renegade for this exact reason - it had a whole lot of space to rack things neatly (and logically).

Whilst I'm aware you haven't asked about what goes where, I used to use the first two gear loops for wires and microcams, the middle two for all other cams, then the back two for quickdraws. I always carried a lot of gear at Gogarth, unashamedly so, because the last thing I ever wanted to get half way up a pitch and realised I'd run out!!

FYI, I tended to carry two full sets of cams on most Main Cliff, including micro cams, and was always suprised by how quickly they were swallowed up. I cut down on the amount of quickdraws I needed with the advent of brands adding doubled up slings to cams, which helped reduce the weight of the overall system somewhat, although there's no denying I was carrying quite a lot of weight!!

Apologies for the long answer, but if there's one topic I'm psyched to talk about it's Gogarth!!

In reply to dinodinosaur:

Not to take this in another direction, but I've seen way more American climbers using the Caritools (or equivalent) than I have in the UK. I use them for trad, but I'm not totally sold on them - it's easy to get stuff mis-clipped through them, etc. Is it just a cultural thing, or are there downsides I'm not seeing (beyond the above)?

In reply to clam5casin0:

Aside from the DMM Vaults, the reliability of their gates is often questionable - I stopped using my BD ones completely when the gate of one opened of its own accord, and even the more sturdy Petzl ones occasionally don't close properly if the weight of their load misaligns the gate and the nose.

Also, if you're not carrying ice-screws, clipping things into one point seems like adding an extra element of faff - cams might as well be on individual krabs, wires would normally be collected in a group on a krab, and in both cases just clipping direct to gear loops seems the simplest option

In reply to dinodinosaur:

If I'm using a bandolier I prefer the rucksack style, although it can lead to sweaty back when it's hot. The gear doesn't swing in a way that affects my balance that way. I really like the ease of switchover with that system too, rack on the bandolier, shoes etc in a small bag. At the belays just swap over who has which and off you go

In reply to dinodinosaur:

I find the Petzl Corax has very good gear loops (though they are quite far forward, which seems to annoy some people). The further forward the front gear loops are, the further forward and usually bigger the back ones are. 

I always add an extra gear loop tied between the back 2, which I store lockers, belay, slings on etc. (some people don't like this as it can be a hazard to fall on and sits directly on your tail bone). That frees up the back loops exclusively for draws. 

Yosemite racking quickdraws and any doubles of cams helps save space, as others have said, as does shouldering more slings instead of having them/extenders on your harness. 

In reply to dinodinosaur:

I seem to fall imbetween sizes on Renegade harnesses ( don't like everything too far forward), and so have put a petzl carritool imbetween the front two loops. I find it really good for quick draw storage and then lots of room for the rack. 

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Ok, we're doing this....

R1: Little wires, big cams 

L1: Big wires, little cams 

R2&L2: draws

R3: stuff that likes to tangle other stuff - Belay plate, nutkey etc 

L3: emergency stuff - prusiks, maillon etc

Back loop: lockers and slings

Necessary mods for the renegade:

1. Glue the little strap thing that forms the lower tie in loop into its crappy little buckle. For reasons unknown they made it 10mm too short so it's forever coming undone. Why, DMM? WHY?????

2. Tape down the flappy bit on the end of the waist belt so it doesn't catch and rip the elastic loops it tucks into when you want to undo it. DMM decided not to sew it flat and left it as a hook so it breaks the stitching. WHY????

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

I've always assumed they did that intentionally to encourage it to stay neatly tucked away in those elastics. My Wild Country harness has a similar "hook" but It only needs a little encouragement through the elastic as you're undoing it.

In reply to dinodinosaur:

I'm a long term bandolier user.  Too much gear on my harness just makes it try to slide down over my hips.  They are a little awkward on a big roof, but all you do is chuck the whole lot over the other side where it sits conveniently accessible.  Never had a problem with slabs, and you can just chuck it all around the back if necessary.

I keep wires and short quick draws on the bandolier where they are easily accessible with either hand.  Cams go on the front gear loop on the opposite side, and longer QDs on the front loop under the bandolier.  Everything is therefore just about reachable with either hand.

I've been using an adjustable and curved BD one for the past few years.  Works fine, although the buckle is re-threaded to stop the loose end getting caught in krab gates.

In reply to Luke90:

Yeah I get that but on this harness it just wants to destroy it. The loop is super flimsy knicker elastic and the end of the belt is in a different league. It's a delicate operation to get it out without damage, which isn't what you want when it's harness off time after a day on gogarth getting roasted in the clothes you set off with all those hours ago on a freezing morning.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

I'm sure you have an alert set up so whenever anyone mentions Gogarth you appear!

For me I'm currently using the 2nd gen wild country synchro, whilst it has loads of real-estate I don't like that the 2nd loops overlap with the third and the smallest size only just fits me at it's tightest.

When I rack I for gogarth/similar I currently go (I have single cams from red dragonfly to big blue and double of green to gold)

R1- full set wallnuts, microwires, odd sized cams

L1- 1-7 rocks, DMM offsets, even sized cams

R2- 8 quickdraws

L2- 7 quickdraws 

R3- belaying kit and monster cams if required 

L3- nutkey, prussics 

Rob does your gogarth rack involve double microcams? I'd be interested to hear what's on your whole gogarth rack!

In reply to Luke90:

Yep, don't buy one, they're annoying and unnecessary. A Wild Country padded bandolier was my most unused bit of climbing gear for about the 20 years that it sat unused in one of my climbing boxes until the long tail of some Facebook outdoor gear sale page turned up some sucker who would pay a quid on top of p&p for it! 😄 (p.s. if you're out there, hope you've enjoyed the bandolier more than me.)

A 60 cm mid sized dyneema sling does the job better and works rather well as sling as well!

In reply to dinodinosaur:

BD Solution Guide is pretty comfy with a double rack of cams, double rack of nuts, and plenty of draws. For UK stuff where I'm placing lots of nuts, I'll normally Yosemite rack any double cams I'm carrying to save even more space - but if I'm mostly placing cams, I just have a set on each side and it still works.

In reply to dinodinosaur:

Another vote for yhe Arcteryx harnesses- I've been using the Skaha and I'm impressed by how well it carries a large trad rack.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

I find I cannot not trad climb with a DMM renegade for this reason after using them for years now. Just wish the waist loop wouldn't slip when carrying a heavy rack.