UKC

So I've been having trouble lately with a certain premium brands footwear. So far I'm on my 3rd set of boots/approach shoes that have all leaked within a year. 2 of these I'm 95% sure were not waterproof in the first place. 

I've tested them in controlled conditions so it's definitely not sweat. Is this something people are generally experiencing or am I just unlucky? 

It's not just you. Most footwear that relies on a membrane is notoriously unreliable. The only exception in my experience being B3 boots which have little flex and the membrane is well protected.

I understand that but what about the 2 pairs of stiff boots that I'm pretty sure leaked from the factory? The only flexible shoes have had less than 10 days use. Surely they should last longer than that? 

Should they; yes. Do they; no.  

Any fabric boot or trainer membrane do not last very long at all. It’s all a marketing con.
I’ve had four pairs of branded boots from the same manufacturer where they have all leaked at the base of the tongue from new, and then elsewhere, often the fore foot crease shortly later, especially if used trudging across pokey heather and rough scree.

Over the years other brands of membrane based waterproof fabric boots have all leaked after a couple of weeks or so of use. So while the tongue leak is manufacturer specific, membranes failing are not.

IMHO none of them keep the water out fully  not even from new.

However,  they can be pretty good at keeping the water in there, as a long and gritty foot bath. 

I wore some GTX shoes on my second LDWA100. It was in S Wales and it rained for 27 hours non stop. After an hour despite my tippy toeing I had wet feet.

39 hours later, I had lost 5 toe nails and had grown 3 extra toes, as some of the blisters were big enough to qualify. Most painfully, I lost the balls off the base of both feet as the flesh detached and floated around in a very unpleasant way.

It took me a week to be able to walk properly again. I threw away the new shoes and swore I would never never ever wear GTX shoes again.

IMHO having a membrane in a flexible low top shoe is next to useless. The height of the shoe is insufficient anyway, the membrane will break because the shoe is so flexible and the face fabrics are generally too lightweight to do a decent job at keeping the water at bay. 

Pick a decent pair of boots with a membrane and save the low tops for those nice-weather days!

I've had exactly the same experience lately, and for people saying that no membrane will keep you dry, older GTX lined boots I've had have lasted a lot longer than those I've had recently.

Not only have I found that shoes I've bought recently have leaked sooner but I've also found that they fall to bits sooner, And I've not changed dramatically eg gaining a lot of weight, wearing them more frequently etc.

For my next pair I'm going to move away from the brand I've been buying repeatedly for over 25 years and buy something cheaper.

While not changing the underlying reality that membranes will be compromised, but... I've had some benefits from very generously using water repellent treatments on the fabric (such as Nikwax).

I don't mean waxing them I mean the footwear equivalent of Nikwax Tech wash, Polar Proof or Down Proof type wash in waterproofing/water repellency.

Not a magic wand but I find helpful, enough benefit for me to bother to do it. But as mentioned need to be realistic what it can/can't do

I also got utterly dispirited at the durability of modern approach shoes/boots, particularly the ones that are basically poorly glued together bits of weak plastic. I've switched to Italian-made stitched leather shoes (Garmont), and while they are certainly heavier and stiffer, they are also still in one piece AND waterproof.

They're always crap. They'll save you from wet feet on those occasions when you've underestimated a bog slightly and the water briefly washes over the top of your toes. But that's it. And even that only for a season. After that they will leak where they flex at the toe. Often sooner because the geniuses have also put a seam or join of some kind right there. So now I look for versions that don't have that insane feature, and and only deploy them when squelch is on the cards, and only expect to get a year max out of them.

There have been numerous threads here (& probably elsewhere) complaining about how useless Goretex & other membranes are in shoes and boots but whenever I go into a shop by far the majority of models on sale have a membrane. And I live in one of the drier parts of the French Alps. Why ?

I've been wearing the same pair of full leather, no membrane boots for 21 years (resoled once and I admit not heavily used these days). As long as they are kept clean and treated with dubbin / wax / polish, they keep water out well. They do fail eventually during a long day of constant rain, which results in slightly damp (but not squelchy) feet.

Same problem. Most recently on Scarpa Mojitos. I'm just impressed that other people are managing to avoid bog on good weather days in the UK! 

I bought the same Scarpa brand of leather boots for years. They were comfortable and reasonably waterproof if proofed correctly. Not particularly long lasting as I was walking a lot in rough terrain, I'd rarely get more than 18 months before they were trashed. Then Scarpa 'upgraded' them to the super duper GTX version with a corresponding price hike (naturally). Apart from wearing out/leaking just as rapidly they also took three times longer to dry which often as not meant putting them on wet/damp. The original non-GTX seemed to disappear so that was a nuisance. As far as I'm concerned, the GTX membrane thing is an unnecessary, expensive gimmick that doesn't work. Nowadays, I plod around in cheap fabric boots and keep my lightweight leather boots for going up a 'proper' hill.

The addition of GTX liner is often accompanied by use of a thinner leather in smaller parts sewn together with more seams. This results in a lighter and more off-the-shelf comfortable boot which uses cheaper materials and is easier to shape. Who remembers having to really wear in a pair of boots before you could use them for long trips? it's not needed now because the boots are so soft from the shop. This means that they are also less durable.

Only making a single GTX model is also cheaper than have one with and one without. Scarpa seem to have done some model rationalisation in other ways.

Scarpa used to be narrow fitting for their normal range and then in certain models they had a X version that was the wide version.

I've found that the normal width models are now closer to a medium fit and the wides are gone.

Gore has a pretty good warranty policy.

I have had 2 pair of approach/hiking boots replaced for free by contacting the Gore folks.

Worth a try.  

Because we, the consumers, want waterproof liners - this according to a boot retailer.

It also allows manufacturers to use poorer leather and pass the boots/shoes off as waterproof.  They can also use shoddy fabric liners that also wear out (instead of a fine quality leather).  Thus, as lightweight and waterproof, they can charge a king's ransom for them.  Then they're knackered after two years at most, but at least it's all fallen apart together.  A bit like old EBs

Every now and then i set off on a mission to find a new pair of membrane-free, leather-lined boots.

B3 boots get all horrible and sweaty because of their liner, and they don't even have the Norwegian welts where they used to leak any more - all bonded and huge rubber rands.  I long for the day when the membrane in those fails and they'll let a bit of steam out...

I mostly use leather these days, a lightweight pair at that. (Peter Storm Snowdon from GoOutdoors) and on my third pair. Only £35 & usually last about a year or so with very heavy usage. No complaints and they coped with the very wet dog-walks this winter that we have just experienced. I've also got Mammut Gortex boots which have lasted 10 years + but only light use. I must admit that my ticking of the Munros was mainly done with Gortex boots and mostly wet feet as I opted for comfort (does that apply with wet feet?). But lightweight leather boots can be comfortable too, and even cope better in snow with suitable spikes. Gortex walking boots certainly can't. Not unless you spend an arm & a leg!

Except it seems many of us don't although often we don't have much choice - even when a non membrane version exists its often not stocked by any local shop.

What about non-waterproof footwear paired with some waterproof socks?  I have Bridgedale ones, but a cursory Google suggests that DexShell are de rigueur with Spine racers, and you don't get much more punishing test than that.  

Yes outside of winter (when I use heavy leather boots that are still waterproof after 20 years) I use unlined boots and just get wet feet or a 'waterproof' sock. Of course the sock isn't 100% waterproof but I've found this a better and more comfy option than GTX boots.

Of course not easy finding an unlined boots either nowadays... though plenty of shoes/trainers around.

Even my old Altberg Mallerstangs have a pointless Sympatex layer. I’ve long since worn a huge hole in the lining at the heel but I keep them waxed and the hole doesn’t seem to make any difference. 

I recently took a risk on some heavyweight Bestard Breithorn boots. So far after 5 months of use they are standing up well. Not exactly scramblers or approach shoes but I got sick of binning boots at over 200 quid. The build quality is excellent, still made in Mallorca.

I sometimes use medium weight polybags from clothing store outlets over my socks, which are 100% waterproof. I started doing so years ago when told that British guides used this for the suede Messner ply-stiffened boots which leaked like a sieve and weren't designed for wet.

A bit sweaty but better than the alternative of cold, soaking feet. After all non-breathing plastic boots, including skiboots, seem to work fine.

.

Gortex is for jackets, leather is for walking boots

I would have sworn never to do another LDWA100 🤣🤣🤣

Because.....marketing.  Lets them sell a 'cheaper to make' boot for a higher price. I hate it.  Although seasoned people like us know it's a waste of time, there's plenty of people who don't know it's a waste of time who have lots of money to spend.  There's a group test of approach shoes in this months Bergsteigen magazine, there were multiple models costing 250euros or more 😲. Globetrotter.de lists 12 models costing 200 euros or more on their website.

Not a single reply in this thread (as I write this) has a downvote. That's not at all UKC compliant and unless it get some downvoting I think the mods will delete this thread as non compliant 

To remedy that.... Let me remind you of my penchant for walking and scrambling in Wellies (although I do have some La Sportiva TX4 GTX mid that I occasionally wear if a lot of scrambling expected, or in a heatwave)

My 3 options 

1) Wellies with ordinary (non hiking ) socks and an extra gel insole. My go-to option for the outdoors 

2) Wellies with no insole but wetsuit socks, very warm! Not crampon compatible but micro spikes are an option 

3) Another pair of wellies with some 6mm holes drilled just above the welt on the inside, by the arch of the foot. This lets the water drain out (but stones and mud don't tend to get in at 6mm, don't go larger diam) for when I'm repeatedly crawling on belly in filthy water or wading/swimming in muck. Worn with wetsuit socks. More a caving thing than walking but adding here as an option for completeness.

Wellies can be bought cheap as chips, Sainsbury's/Tu is my favourite "designer brand" currently reduced from £18 to £14.50 a pair. They last a long time also. The cheapest ones are usually lightest weight ones too so cheapest is best. No concerns about membrane delamination or waxing boots. Can wash inside and out with hot water and Dettol, dries overnight on radiator 

There you go, you can downvote your heart's out ❤️