UKC

Hi all,

I am looking at investing in a pair of new ice tools, however, I am stuck on if I should get a pair of technical axes or a more versatile ice axe. I will be doing a bit of everything, but specifically a bit of Scotland and ice in Cogne. 

these are the ice axes that I am thinking of getting:

Cassin X-dream alpine vs Petzl nomic vs black diamond fuel vs Grivel north machine carbon vs Cassin X-all mountain vs Black diamond viper vs Petzl Quark.

I've heard that the technical models are also very versatile. But some of these axes such as the Cassin models are hard to find information on, so if any of you have any personal experience with any of these axes, please help!!! also if you have any other models you enjoy using please suggest.

What grades are you planning on?  I have used Petzl Quarks up to WI5 and whilst Nomics might have been better I was fine.  The Quarks have been excellent for the lower grade stuff I do in the UK.  Reading between the lines I suspect something pretty allround like the Quarks will be fine.

Right now you are 15 and so most likely have little to no experience of grades etc - feel free to correct me on that. To start with you will need to learn movement on snow and ice and mixed, and in my opinion that is best done with an allround pair. This will not be a waste of money as you will continue to use them on alpine stuff and gully stuff. Once you get on with the higher grades you can get a second pair. Just remember that WI5 and Scottish V was first climbed with straight shafted tools and whilst I know that it makes it slightly harder, to start with, you will be holding any of the models you mentioned back, not the other way round. 

I can't comment on specific models, other than I have tried the Grivels for a week and they are fantastic. Have used BD tools in the past and they are also excellent. My friend has the X-Dream and I always notice how easily he gets a good stick in dense water ice...

I have a pair of axes and two pair of crampons, if you prefer second hand.

I have used Cassin X Dreams and they were fantastic on ice. I have a set of Grivel Tech Machines that I love but hate the idea of hitting rock with them. TBH  they are needlessly technical for me and the North Machines would be a better fit but they weren't available.

Quarks would be a good all rounder and I have climbed steep ice with them but if you're going to do mixed routes in Scotland I would make sure I could change to mixed picks and factor that cost in. One can try to limit yourself to icy routes in Scotland but from experience it doesn't always work out that way...

Sure personal taste will be a factor - comparing the Tech Machines to Ergonomics or Quarks the balance point is very different and hence the swing.

All will be good though so enjoy the new toys.

I've climbed a lot on all of the above tools.

They're all good and will perform well enough up to grade V. If you're climbing a lot above that then a tool with an offset handle (Fuel/Nomic etc) will be benificial.

I have Fuels as my current personal tools for VI and above as I don't trust Nomics after the problems they've had recently (plenty of information online to google). For less technical climbing and work I have just got some Vipers after using a permanently borrowed pair of Quarks for a few seasons. Having an adze and a straighter tool is useful in some circumstances. 

If you are working your way up through the grades I would recommend a Quark or Viper as they are a sensible tool to carry if you just want to take one tool for a winter scramble or use as a walking axe, and they climb well enough for Vs and VIs. As previously mentioned, if you climb Scottish mixed and blue your tools, don't expect them to climb well on ice. Get a second set of T rated 'mixed' picks for Scotland and use B rated 'ice' picks for pure ice.

Edit: I'm talking about Scottish grades here, not WI. 

Personally I haven't got that much time on ice but I've dry tooled a bit and I can say all those tools are more than good enough for your first tools. My advice would be something without jug handles as the straight shafted quark style is so much better as an all rounder in scotland, Wales or the lakes, let's face it you'll be doing 20 times more walking than you will climbing, which is why as a fairly inexperienced winter climber I went for straighter shafted axes as they'll manage everything I've dry tooled at m8 on plastic with the old dmm flys. As a tool I think the dmm apex would be better it's a very aggressive straight shafted tool that if needed be used to walk and then climb far harder than I'll ever be able to. A good option could be to go to chill factor or an ice wall as they have a good selection of tools to play with but you'll only get to play around on the steep and not do the mountaineering style climbing that is needed to approach a climb

Have you watched all roads lead to scotland? You'll notice that not even Tim Neill climbs with jug handle tools he just uses dmm Apexs. My main concerns would be durability, weight and price for a first tool so something like a grivel light machine or north machine is a good option dont go for carbon they'll get trashed on mixed which you will have to climb as its unavoidable. 

Get the Quarks.

my dad is a lot heavier than me, so we would be doing lower grade stuff, but my idea is that we will also be doing quite a lot of waterfall ice in Cogne. And thank you for your advice!

I would be interested in the ice axes, always good to fetch a good deal, what model are they?

thank you for your advice, sounds kinda obvious with the durability of carbon. (think i liked them because they look really nice)

I don't think you'd go wrong with Singing Rock Bandits. They're very like 2nd Gen Quarks but cheaper, and their replacement picks are cheaper too. Good allrounders and good axes to learn or.

Or second hand Quarks.

Happy for a reasonable offer.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/premier_posts/pair_of_ice_tools_and_two_p...

The answer is Nomics

If you live near london, Manchester or fort William there are indoor ice climbing walls albeit small they can give you tools to try out and you know tools are only half the problem you'll need crampons so it's worth seeing if you get on monos or double points

I used x all mountains last winter. 

Plus points,

Plunge a bit better than the axes with moulded handles.

Swing brilliantly very well weighted and balanced.

Upper pommel is adjustable and can be moved up if you have large hands like me.

All parts of the handles are replaceable if damaged.

Highly curved shaft, more than others, comparable on your list.

minus points,

The shafts are so curved, and the hammer head is small, that it makes hammering pegs and warthogs difficult, more so than axes with straighter shafts on your list.

Replacement parts not always available in UK. ( I sent to Spain for a replacement adze) although reasonable prices.

Hope this is of some help.