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Okay, so I'm wondering what the best layering systems are when working it hard and sweating a lot?
I'm talking in cold conditions, and sweating, over steep ground etc.
Obviously you want warm clothing for the cold conditions but working hard means high levels of perspiration making it uncomfortable, with a sweat pack with a backpack on.
What layering 'systems' do people use?
Do the 'airflow' backpacks reduce 'sweaty back syndrome'?
Is the layer next to the skin he most important?
How do you reduce the condensation build up by the waterproof layer?
I'm currently using,
berghaus active fit base layer
Northface longs sleeve summit series layer
Marmot windstopper
Marmot minimalist goretex jacket.
Rucksack
Maybe a numpty topic, but if anyone could help or point me in the direction of any good reviews or existing topics, then that would be really useful
Thanks in advance
I'm talking in cold conditions, and sweating, over steep ground etc.
Obviously you want warm clothing for the cold conditions but working hard means high levels of perspiration making it uncomfortable, with a sweat pack with a backpack on.
What layering 'systems' do people use?
Do the 'airflow' backpacks reduce 'sweaty back syndrome'?
Is the layer next to the skin he most important?
How do you reduce the condensation build up by the waterproof layer?
I'm currently using,
berghaus active fit base layer
Northface longs sleeve summit series layer
Marmot windstopper
Marmot minimalist goretex jacket.
Rucksack
Maybe a numpty topic, but if anyone could help or point me in the direction of any good reviews or existing topics, then that would be really useful
Thanks in advance
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
the rucksack that stops sweaty backs hasn't been invented yet. Without doubt an airflow pack is better than your average pack, but your back will still sweat. I currently use an Osprey Stratos and find that pretty decent.
Buy yourself a Helly Hansen Dry top. The reason being, Helly Hansen's do not wick, instead they pass the moisture through to your outer layer, therefore leaving a dry layer next to your skin. You lose bodyheat roughly 25% faster when your wet, which is why the Helly's are the most effective baselayers on the market. Also having a dry layer next to your skin is much more comfortable than having a wet layer.
As for your outer, I would recommend eVent as it is fantastic on the breathability front. Or wait for polartec to bring out there new waterproof stretch fabric which is supposedly going to be the most breathable material you can buy.
Will
the rucksack that stops sweaty backs hasn't been invented yet. Without doubt an airflow pack is better than your average pack, but your back will still sweat. I currently use an Osprey Stratos and find that pretty decent.
Buy yourself a Helly Hansen Dry top. The reason being, Helly Hansen's do not wick, instead they pass the moisture through to your outer layer, therefore leaving a dry layer next to your skin. You lose bodyheat roughly 25% faster when your wet, which is why the Helly's are the most effective baselayers on the market. Also having a dry layer next to your skin is much more comfortable than having a wet layer.
As for your outer, I would recommend eVent as it is fantastic on the breathability front. Or wait for polartec to bring out there new waterproof stretch fabric which is supposedly going to be the most breathable material you can buy.
Will
In reply to CrankCrimp:
You have just described wicking.
Al
> (In reply to Rick Atkinson)
>
>
> Buy yourself a Helly Hansen Dry top. The reason being, Helly Hansen's do not wick, instead they pass the moisture through to your outer layer, therefore leaving a dry layer next to your skin.
You have just described wicking.
Al
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
nope, when a top wicks, it takes the moisture from your skin and spreads it out over the entire top, leaving a larger drying area, therefore drys fast.
nope, when a top wicks, it takes the moisture from your skin and spreads it out over the entire top, leaving a larger drying area, therefore drys fast.
In reply to CrankCrimp:
Different companies, different spiel, same effect.
> (In reply to Al Randall)
>
> nope, when a top wicks, it takes the moisture from your skin and spreads it out over the entire top, leaving a larger drying area, therefore drys fast.
>
> nope, when a top wicks, it takes the moisture from your skin and spreads it out over the entire top, leaving a larger drying area, therefore drys fast.
Different companies, different spiel, same effect.
Also, I've just bought a Buffalo top which claims to make the concept of layering redundant. We'll see...
In reply to CrankCrimp:
Wick
verb [ trans. ]
absorb or draw off (liquid) by capillary action : these excellent socks will wick away the sweat | [ intrans. ] synthetics with hollow fibers that wick well.
I agree with the other chap - I think you've been reading the back of the Helly Hansen packets too closely.
To the OP - if you have a Windstopper top, try not using it. In my experience it's a crap material - that doesn't let sweat out but does let rain in.
Wick
verb [ trans. ]
absorb or draw off (liquid) by capillary action : these excellent socks will wick away the sweat | [ intrans. ] synthetics with hollow fibers that wick well.
I agree with the other chap - I think you've been reading the back of the Helly Hansen packets too closely.
To the OP - if you have a Windstopper top, try not using it. In my experience it's a crap material - that doesn't let sweat out but does let rain in.
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
ultimately all does the same job but helly hansen does it more effectively. LIFA is hellys proprietary and it has no moisture retention properties therefore makes it impossible to hold on to moisture next to your skin, instead it just chucks it too your outer layers, rather than have it sit next to your skin for a while.
Would you rather be dry and warm, or wet and warm?
ultimately all does the same job but helly hansen does it more effectively. LIFA is hellys proprietary and it has no moisture retention properties therefore makes it impossible to hold on to moisture next to your skin, instead it just chucks it too your outer layers, rather than have it sit next to your skin for a while.
Would you rather be dry and warm, or wet and warm?
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
All options will result in sweat. Not one item will cover all conditions. All packs, even those with fancy venting will cause perspiration on your back.
Don't try and eradicate it just try to reduce it. I've got the Montane Extreme Smock and thats probably the best combination when pushing hard in cold conditions.
Yes you need a decent base layer to lift the persiration from the skin but the pile on the jacket will do that for you. Wouldn't fancy not having a base layer if its particularly cold though.
All options will result in sweat. Not one item will cover all conditions. All packs, even those with fancy venting will cause perspiration on your back.
Don't try and eradicate it just try to reduce it. I've got the Montane Extreme Smock and thats probably the best combination when pushing hard in cold conditions.
Yes you need a decent base layer to lift the persiration from the skin but the pile on the jacket will do that for you. Wouldn't fancy not having a base layer if its particularly cold though.
In reply to CrankCrimp:
You're like a marketing team's wet dream. All companies will say their products do it the best. Personally I find Icebreaker do the job better than most others.
You're like a marketing team's wet dream. All companies will say their products do it the best. Personally I find Icebreaker do the job better than most others.
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
i didnt actualy get this off helly hansen, I got it off a mate who works as a product trainer for a company i've worked for.
i didnt actualy get this off helly hansen, I got it off a mate who works as a product trainer for a company i've worked for.
Hey, thanks for the replies so far, all interesting stuff, especially the views on the windstopper.
In reply to Darren09: I have actually been looking at the smock jacket by Montane. I use the Terra and prism clothing and a few of there t-shirts and seems really good stuff. How do you find the waterproof-ness of the smock? Obviously it;s a cold weather jacket, so it;s unlikely to get caught in a real heavy downpour, more a snow storm. How is the hood? Can you fit a helmet under it?
I've also looked at the Paramo smock jacket they do, a different insulation material, how does this fair up?
In reply to Darren09: I have actually been looking at the smock jacket by Montane. I use the Terra and prism clothing and a few of there t-shirts and seems really good stuff. How do you find the waterproof-ness of the smock? Obviously it;s a cold weather jacket, so it;s unlikely to get caught in a real heavy downpour, more a snow storm. How is the hood? Can you fit a helmet under it?
I've also looked at the Paramo smock jacket they do, a different insulation material, how does this fair up?
In reply to CrankCrimp:
Smelly Helly doesn't retain sweat - bollocks that'd be a first!
> (In reply to Ed Feldman)
>
> LIFA is hellys proprietary and it has no moisture retention properties
>
> LIFA is hellys proprietary and it has no moisture retention properties
Smelly Helly doesn't retain sweat - bollocks that'd be a first!
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
If moving fast and light or high exertion follwing periods of rest (which I presuming you're referring to in terms of the sweating?)
I wear a rab vapour rise top against the skin whilst moving. I throw a duvet jacket or vest over when I stop. (depending on how long I intend to be stationary)
If moving fast and light or high exertion follwing periods of rest (which I presuming you're referring to in terms of the sweating?)
I wear a rab vapour rise top against the skin whilst moving. I throw a duvet jacket or vest over when I stop. (depending on how long I intend to be stationary)
In reply to Rick Atkinson: I take a spare base layer in my pack and change into it when I'm at the base of the climb. Instantly dry!
In reply to PaleMan:
it retains the smell of sweat, not the moisture.
Name me a baselayer that doesnt smell after wearing it for a hard day out in the hills?
it retains the smell of sweat, not the moisture.
Name me a baselayer that doesnt smell after wearing it for a hard day out in the hills?
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
If I were you I would ditch the North face layer and the windstopper and get something non-windproof like powerstretch as you've got the shell for the wind.
I think to take full advantage of the extreme smock you want it close fitting and worn next to the skin.
If I were you I would ditch the North face layer and the windstopper and get something non-windproof like powerstretch as you've got the shell for the wind.
I think to take full advantage of the extreme smock you want it close fitting and worn next to the skin.
In reply to CrankCrimp:
Anything made out of merino? Had mine on for a week walking in and out of the Northern Corries and even sleeping in it. Still smelt fresh, if a little woolier at the end. My Mammut baselayer on the other hand lasted less than a day before the smell was pretty offensive. Helly's are renowned for honking some.
Anything made out of merino? Had mine on for a week walking in and out of the Northern Corries and even sleeping in it. Still smelt fresh, if a little woolier at the end. My Mammut baselayer on the other hand lasted less than a day before the smell was pretty offensive. Helly's are renowned for honking some.
In reply to CrankCrimp:
Sweat doesn't smell, it's the bacteria that feast on it that do. Hence the use of silver in more base layer now, as the bacteria don't like silver (kills them I think, so obviously who'd like that!).
Sweat is perspiration, which is moisture, which if Helly Smelly didn't retain it, wouldn't sit in the fibres, and the garment would never smell.
Lifa retains moisture, does it's best to shift it, but nevertheless it does retain some. All base layers do, they just try to minimise it. Breathability is about moisture in vapour form. In vapour form it will pass though all base layers mostly unimpeded as you describe. Soon as it become liquid, i.e. what we recognise as sweat, then it has to pass through the fabric, i.e. wick
> (In reply to PaleMan)
>
> it retains the smell of sweat, not the moisture.
>
>
> it retains the smell of sweat, not the moisture.
>
Sweat doesn't smell, it's the bacteria that feast on it that do. Hence the use of silver in more base layer now, as the bacteria don't like silver (kills them I think, so obviously who'd like that!).
Sweat is perspiration, which is moisture, which if Helly Smelly didn't retain it, wouldn't sit in the fibres, and the garment would never smell.
Lifa retains moisture, does it's best to shift it, but nevertheless it does retain some. All base layers do, they just try to minimise it. Breathability is about moisture in vapour form. In vapour form it will pass though all base layers mostly unimpeded as you describe. Soon as it become liquid, i.e. what we recognise as sweat, then it has to pass through the fabric, i.e. wick
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
I'm going to ignore the guy frantically masturbating over his LIFA kit and give you some actual advice. Be aware that I'm a proponent of softshell type systems, where windproofness and breathability are the priorities, over and above 'waterproofness'. This post ended up pretty rambling but I think there's some good stuff in here
I'm assuming you're mostly going winter walking while carrying camping gear, as you seem to mention 'steep ground' rather than climbing specifically.
Firstly: the obvious stuff. Don't wear your hardshell unless it's raining, truly breathable hardshells are only just being developed and Gore-Tex is the flint axe of hardshell fabrics (and can't breathe at all in the rain). If you're too hot, and therefore sweating, stop and take some clothes off. From the list you give above it seems you're wearing (or at least carrying) far too much. If you get cold when you stop, then put some back on (more on this later).
Layering in the cold is all about balancing how hard you're working with the ambient temperature. You also need to keep the weather (wind and rain) off to some extent while maintaining 'breathability'. How much breathability and insulation you need, depends on how hot you 'run' and the conditions. All this will dictate finding a system that works for you. What works uphill might not work downhill or on the flat, so be prepared to adjust for that.
You also need to allow for the fact that sometimes you'll stop for a rest or snack, and you'll cool down; this is where (in climbing) a belay jacket comes in. Walkers aren't generally conducive to this idea but it works for them too. If you're walking then a synthetic duvet jacket (or down if you're brave or it's pretty dry), hooded or not will do this job nicely.
I find the system that works for me is a base layer (long sleeved, zip neck type) with a windproof top (Rab Alpine Pull-On), possibly with a microfleece in between if it's cold. This is fine for walking uphill on steep ground, breathes well and keeps the wind off. I carry a hardshell but rarely need it; frankly if it's hardshell weather I won't be out, but you may think differently.
If you're considering buying a softshell type thing (one of your posts suggests you are), then the adjustment system is a bit different. A Montane Extreme smock, or Buffalo Pile/Pertex shirt, can be worn against the skin, or a base layer added when it's very cold (this tends to mess up the wicking a little though).
There are a lot of systems out there that people trust: Paramo, Montane Extreme, Buffalo, Rab VR, and of course Gore and fleece. You may have to suffer a bit in clothes that don't work, and sell them on at a loss, before you find a working system. It helps if you think you know how hot/cold you run. From what I've heard, a lot of people who run hot tend to prefer Paramo, which relies on constant high body heat dumping to push moisture back out. If you run fairly cold then Montane Extreme (lots of insulation, and therefore too warm for some except in very cold conditions) might work for you.
This rambled a lot but I hope it helps
Stewie
I'm going to ignore the guy frantically masturbating over his LIFA kit and give you some actual advice. Be aware that I'm a proponent of softshell type systems, where windproofness and breathability are the priorities, over and above 'waterproofness'. This post ended up pretty rambling but I think there's some good stuff in here
I'm assuming you're mostly going winter walking while carrying camping gear, as you seem to mention 'steep ground' rather than climbing specifically.
Firstly: the obvious stuff. Don't wear your hardshell unless it's raining, truly breathable hardshells are only just being developed and Gore-Tex is the flint axe of hardshell fabrics (and can't breathe at all in the rain). If you're too hot, and therefore sweating, stop and take some clothes off. From the list you give above it seems you're wearing (or at least carrying) far too much. If you get cold when you stop, then put some back on (more on this later).
Layering in the cold is all about balancing how hard you're working with the ambient temperature. You also need to keep the weather (wind and rain) off to some extent while maintaining 'breathability'. How much breathability and insulation you need, depends on how hot you 'run' and the conditions. All this will dictate finding a system that works for you. What works uphill might not work downhill or on the flat, so be prepared to adjust for that.
You also need to allow for the fact that sometimes you'll stop for a rest or snack, and you'll cool down; this is where (in climbing) a belay jacket comes in. Walkers aren't generally conducive to this idea but it works for them too. If you're walking then a synthetic duvet jacket (or down if you're brave or it's pretty dry), hooded or not will do this job nicely.
I find the system that works for me is a base layer (long sleeved, zip neck type) with a windproof top (Rab Alpine Pull-On), possibly with a microfleece in between if it's cold. This is fine for walking uphill on steep ground, breathes well and keeps the wind off. I carry a hardshell but rarely need it; frankly if it's hardshell weather I won't be out, but you may think differently.
If you're considering buying a softshell type thing (one of your posts suggests you are), then the adjustment system is a bit different. A Montane Extreme smock, or Buffalo Pile/Pertex shirt, can be worn against the skin, or a base layer added when it's very cold (this tends to mess up the wicking a little though).
There are a lot of systems out there that people trust: Paramo, Montane Extreme, Buffalo, Rab VR, and of course Gore and fleece. You may have to suffer a bit in clothes that don't work, and sell them on at a loss, before you find a working system. It helps if you think you know how hot/cold you run. From what I've heard, a lot of people who run hot tend to prefer Paramo, which relies on constant high body heat dumping to push moisture back out. If you run fairly cold then Montane Extreme (lots of insulation, and therefore too warm for some except in very cold conditions) might work for you.
This rambled a lot but I hope it helps
Stewie
In reply to PaleMan: except hellys dont wick..
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
.
Just watch the base layer, possibly have to invest in two different weights and experiment.
Yes, its a pain in the arse to carry in the pack, but don't carry it in the pack then. I like the pile concept so much that im getting the jacket as well for everyday use.
Love it.
.
>
> In reply to Darren09: I have .......How do you find the waterproof-ness of the smock? Obviously it;s a cold weather jacket,, more a snow storm. How is the hood? Can you fit a helmet under it?
>
The waterproofness isn't great but then the fabrics not supposed to be and the seams aren't taped. Thats not really the point. Like you said you try to plan the jacket around the conditions, if poss. I have got caught out in a deluge and yes the jacket will eventually let water in, especially around the zips/seams but while your moving you dont really feel it. Snow? No prob. Hood is big enough to get a lid under, my Elios does. > In reply to Darren09: I have .......How do you find the waterproof-ness of the smock? Obviously it;s a cold weather jacket,, more a snow storm. How is the hood? Can you fit a helmet under it?
>
Just watch the base layer, possibly have to invest in two different weights and experiment.
Yes, its a pain in the arse to carry in the pack, but don't carry it in the pack then. I like the pile concept so much that im getting the jacket as well for everyday use.
Love it.
In reply to Rick Atkinson: i think which ever you decide on its important interact with system as circumstances dictate, by this i mean actively removing layers when neccessary , using venting on garments,chosing the appropriate times to add/remove clothing,may seem obvious but how many times have you seen people set off from their cars wearing down jackets under their pack or too many layers as they feel cool stepping from warm warm vehicles and over compensate . its defeating the whole object if your clothing is creating excess heat
In reply to CrankCrimp:
Of course they do, don't be silly. If you are the age that you say you are in your profile, my first Helly LIFA top is slightly older than you are! I think LIFA is amongst the best synthetic base layers you can get - definitely one of the best value for money anyway - but you seem to think it has some magic powers that defy the laws of physics. Believe me if I take my Lifa top off after a hard cross country skiing session and chuck it at you, you'll notice it 'holds moisture'! You obviously just haven't been running or cycling very hard in yours!
And merrino base layers don't smell - their anti smell properties are actually really quite amazing.
> except hellys dont wick..
Of course they do, don't be silly. If you are the age that you say you are in your profile, my first Helly LIFA top is slightly older than you are! I think LIFA is amongst the best synthetic base layers you can get - definitely one of the best value for money anyway - but you seem to think it has some magic powers that defy the laws of physics. Believe me if I take my Lifa top off after a hard cross country skiing session and chuck it at you, you'll notice it 'holds moisture'! You obviously just haven't been running or cycling very hard in yours!
And merrino base layers don't smell - their anti smell properties are actually really quite amazing.
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
Rick, I've written quite a long article about exactly this that I believe UKC is going to put up this winter at some point - but basically, when you are working hard walking up hill fast and the like, don't wear too much to stay dry.
I would look at getting a pertex (or similar) windshirt of some kind. In terms of both money and weight, they are about the best value pieces of clothing available. Whilst sweating hard - you can often just wear it over your baselayer and be fine. Worn over a base and light fleece, it will keep you warm but be very breathable when worn whilst working a bit less hard - say walking along a ridge. More on windshirts here: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2009/12/marmot-ion-windshirt-review.h... Montane have a big choice of windshirts - although the RAB alpine pull on is another good choice with a superb hood - read more here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=2685
The Minimalist is a nice jacket, and quite light so maybe aim to keep it on your pack more for really crappy weather, and try the windshirt idea.
If by "Marmot windstopper" you mean a windstopper fleece, this may well be your problem. Windstopper is PTFE membrane and not very breathable. It also makes fleeces really heavy. Save that for strolling to the pub in, and get some sort of micro fleece. These can start from six quid for the Decathlon ones (which work fine!) to over a 100 for something like the Patagonia R1 hoody. Take you pick to fit your budget - Powerstretch is great material for this type of thing, but not the cheapest option.
If you are on the move, a base layer, micro fleece and windshirt can keep you comfortable in a huge amount of UK mountain conditions - obviously you'll want your goretex in really rainy or windy weather though, and thats where it works well.
If you wear less - i.e. one base and a microfleece, consider investing in a synthetic filled 'duvet' to put on over the top of everything (including your goretex if necessary) when belaying if climbing, or at lunch stops when walking. See my RAB review again on the link above.
Hope that gives you some ideas!
Rick, I've written quite a long article about exactly this that I believe UKC is going to put up this winter at some point - but basically, when you are working hard walking up hill fast and the like, don't wear too much to stay dry.
I would look at getting a pertex (or similar) windshirt of some kind. In terms of both money and weight, they are about the best value pieces of clothing available. Whilst sweating hard - you can often just wear it over your baselayer and be fine. Worn over a base and light fleece, it will keep you warm but be very breathable when worn whilst working a bit less hard - say walking along a ridge. More on windshirts here: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2009/12/marmot-ion-windshirt-review.h... Montane have a big choice of windshirts - although the RAB alpine pull on is another good choice with a superb hood - read more here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=2685
The Minimalist is a nice jacket, and quite light so maybe aim to keep it on your pack more for really crappy weather, and try the windshirt idea.
If by "Marmot windstopper" you mean a windstopper fleece, this may well be your problem. Windstopper is PTFE membrane and not very breathable. It also makes fleeces really heavy. Save that for strolling to the pub in, and get some sort of micro fleece. These can start from six quid for the Decathlon ones (which work fine!) to over a 100 for something like the Patagonia R1 hoody. Take you pick to fit your budget - Powerstretch is great material for this type of thing, but not the cheapest option.
If you are on the move, a base layer, micro fleece and windshirt can keep you comfortable in a huge amount of UK mountain conditions - obviously you'll want your goretex in really rainy or windy weather though, and thats where it works well.
If you wear less - i.e. one base and a microfleece, consider investing in a synthetic filled 'duvet' to put on over the top of everything (including your goretex if necessary) when belaying if climbing, or at lunch stops when walking. See my RAB review again on the link above.
Hope that gives you some ideas!
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
"
Stewie
I find the system that works for me is a base layer (long sleeved, zip neck type) with a windproof top (Rab Alpine Pull-On), possibly with a microfleece in between if it's cold.
"
I second Stewie's system.
I use Icebreaker base, micro fleece, montane lightspeed.
So very breathable, I adjust the base and mid layer o suit the conditions before setting out.
The above packs down very well and is lightweight and reasonable priced.
Inevitably you will have this kit maybe except lightspeed, but any pertex micro windproof will do. Give it a go.
mh
"
Stewie
I find the system that works for me is a base layer (long sleeved, zip neck type) with a windproof top (Rab Alpine Pull-On), possibly with a microfleece in between if it's cold.
"
I second Stewie's system.
I use Icebreaker base, micro fleece, montane lightspeed.
So very breathable, I adjust the base and mid layer o suit the conditions before setting out.
The above packs down very well and is lightweight and reasonable priced.
Inevitably you will have this kit maybe except lightspeed, but any pertex micro windproof will do. Give it a go.
mh
In reply to Rick Atkinson: I'd say the crux of this is whether by "cold" you mean above or below freezing. Bel;ow freezing is relatively easy - thin base layer and non-membrane softshell all the way.
Just above freezing is much more difficult to manage - yomping hard in 2-3 degrees and driving rain (eg majority of British mountain winter conditions!) means you'll get sweaty when moving and cold and wet when you stop. No easy answer here - all is compromise. But again I can't see a role for membraned softshells (eg. powershield, windstopper) here either. Once wet, they take forever to dry out in my experience - and make you cold in the process.
If it's anything other than drizzle in light wind, you'll need a hardshell. There'll all relative crap at breathing through the fabric - especially in the relatively warm humid conditions we tend to get in Britain (I have tried most species of Gore-tex, Event and H20NO). IMHO the biggest thing that makes a practical difference is venting - pit zips in particular, but also pockets etc that you can open without filling with water and the contents falling out - eg. vertical chest pockets
Just above freezing is much more difficult to manage - yomping hard in 2-3 degrees and driving rain (eg majority of British mountain winter conditions!) means you'll get sweaty when moving and cold and wet when you stop. No easy answer here - all is compromise. But again I can't see a role for membraned softshells (eg. powershield, windstopper) here either. Once wet, they take forever to dry out in my experience - and make you cold in the process.
If it's anything other than drizzle in light wind, you'll need a hardshell. There'll all relative crap at breathing through the fabric - especially in the relatively warm humid conditions we tend to get in Britain (I have tried most species of Gore-tex, Event and H20NO). IMHO the biggest thing that makes a practical difference is venting - pit zips in particular, but also pockets etc that you can open without filling with water and the contents falling out - eg. vertical chest pockets
In reply to TobyA:
but the helly will get rid of the moisture much faster than another baselayer.
and does that include the merino hellys?
but the helly will get rid of the moisture much faster than another baselayer.
and does that include the merino hellys?
In reply to CrankCrimp:
WHO SELL HELLY and probably not it's main competitors.
I have all sorts of baselayers, including a number of Helly tops, they are fine, but don't perform any better than any other the other makes.
> (In reply to Ed Feldman)
>
> i didnt actualy get this off helly hansen, I got it off a mate who works as a product trainer for a company i've worked for.
>
> i didnt actualy get this off helly hansen, I got it off a mate who works as a product trainer for a company i've worked for.
WHO SELL HELLY and probably not it's main competitors.
I have all sorts of baselayers, including a number of Helly tops, they are fine, but don't perform any better than any other the other makes.
i had a helly and it worked a treat, but it really did pen and ink.
Mrs Helix accused it of contaminating some of her own clothes merely by being in the same room as them, and made me throw it away.
Mrs Helix accused it of contaminating some of her own clothes merely by being in the same room as them, and made me throw it away.
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
I can tell you what works best for me, but everyone is different.
I wear a baselayer with a lightweight windproof jacket. If it is very cold the baselayer will be upgraded to something a bit warmer like an R1 hoody. I often start off pretty cold, but soon warm up and often need to vent to keep coolish.
In my sac I have a hooded synthetic jacket (haglofs barrier zone, but other good products available) and a lightweight (300g) waterproof.
The synthetic can just be thrown on over everything else, including the waterproof if needed. If you feel a bit exposed like this, a in fleece might make the transitional periods a bit more comfortable.
I can tell you what works best for me, but everyone is different.
I wear a baselayer with a lightweight windproof jacket. If it is very cold the baselayer will be upgraded to something a bit warmer like an R1 hoody. I often start off pretty cold, but soon warm up and often need to vent to keep coolish.
In my sac I have a hooded synthetic jacket (haglofs barrier zone, but other good products available) and a lightweight (300g) waterproof.
The synthetic can just be thrown on over everything else, including the waterproof if needed. If you feel a bit exposed like this, a in fleece might make the transitional periods a bit more comfortable.
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
I stand cold and run hot.
I think what we all know, which is that each of us are made differently, have different levels of fitness etc and for that reason, no one system suits all. Unfortunately we have to play around and spend a few £££s to get it right.
I have Helly and Icebreaker tops. For me Icebreaker wins hands down. The merino Icebreaker use, never smells even after a hard week of it. It is warm when wet, Helly certainly isn't. Paying £50-60 for Icebreaker (look for bargains of course) or similar makes sense compared to a Helly £40 number as you get more than 150% extra for your money IMHO. Helly maybe a false economy for your needs, but they are great for soley active pursuits like running etc (i.e. no stopping involved).
If away for more than a day I would also recommend Merino underwear. A million times nicer than cotton and again you can wear them for days without turning them inside out. I take spares of course, but you have the option if travelling fast and light.
An example of my layering whilst walking 30 milers this winter would be, Icebreaker 200 weight leggings, top and underpants. A Rab VR top and lightweight softshell trousers (extra quick drying). Salomon Wayfarer are my fav even though they are marketed as lightweight even for the summer. I will start with a Polartec fleece until warmed up.
Keeping ankles and wrists warm is important for me, so I consider that my ankles will be covered by socks, boots, trousers and gaiters. This can lead to sweaty lower legs. I tend not to stop for too long in the cold or be knee deep in snow so can get away with summer weight socks. haven't tried Merino yet but will for next winter.
I work ok with hard shells, but like previous posters rarely have use for it. I always take it just in case and if worn be prepared to take a layer off straight away and use venting. I have never felt uncomfortable in a Pro Shell but I think the layering aspect is important here. People complain about them being like plastic bags, but I often find that they have placed them over their existing system. A no brainer here.
As for rucksacks if doing day missions, I use a 20L Deuter with airflow. If anyone doesn't think they are better than non airflow, then they it must be personal differences. I have found them superior even wearing a Helly, but again Merino helps around the straps and this is noticeable.
Summary - Merino and softshell. Look for bargains. Most of my gear has been bought for around 50-60% of normal retail prices.
I stand cold and run hot.
I think what we all know, which is that each of us are made differently, have different levels of fitness etc and for that reason, no one system suits all. Unfortunately we have to play around and spend a few £££s to get it right.
I have Helly and Icebreaker tops. For me Icebreaker wins hands down. The merino Icebreaker use, never smells even after a hard week of it. It is warm when wet, Helly certainly isn't. Paying £50-60 for Icebreaker (look for bargains of course) or similar makes sense compared to a Helly £40 number as you get more than 150% extra for your money IMHO. Helly maybe a false economy for your needs, but they are great for soley active pursuits like running etc (i.e. no stopping involved).
If away for more than a day I would also recommend Merino underwear. A million times nicer than cotton and again you can wear them for days without turning them inside out. I take spares of course, but you have the option if travelling fast and light.
An example of my layering whilst walking 30 milers this winter would be, Icebreaker 200 weight leggings, top and underpants. A Rab VR top and lightweight softshell trousers (extra quick drying). Salomon Wayfarer are my fav even though they are marketed as lightweight even for the summer. I will start with a Polartec fleece until warmed up.
Keeping ankles and wrists warm is important for me, so I consider that my ankles will be covered by socks, boots, trousers and gaiters. This can lead to sweaty lower legs. I tend not to stop for too long in the cold or be knee deep in snow so can get away with summer weight socks. haven't tried Merino yet but will for next winter.
I work ok with hard shells, but like previous posters rarely have use for it. I always take it just in case and if worn be prepared to take a layer off straight away and use venting. I have never felt uncomfortable in a Pro Shell but I think the layering aspect is important here. People complain about them being like plastic bags, but I often find that they have placed them over their existing system. A no brainer here.
As for rucksacks if doing day missions, I use a 20L Deuter with airflow. If anyone doesn't think they are better than non airflow, then they it must be personal differences. I have found them superior even wearing a Helly, but again Merino helps around the straps and this is noticeable.
Summary - Merino and softshell. Look for bargains. Most of my gear has been bought for around 50-60% of normal retail prices.
In reply to Rick Atkinson: My favourite base layer is Capilene but along with jkarran I would agree that it is probably more suited to warmer temperatures. Haven't tried Merino yet so in winter I put powerstretch over the Capilene for insulation and then add a soft shell. I take the powerstretch off if there is a long walk in.
Al
Al
In reply to CrankCrimp:
What shop? He is obviously a great salesman as he has got you believing a bunch of crap. Lifa works well, but no better than capeline, Dryflo, Polartec, etc. etc. By the sounds of it lots of us here have actually tried the different brands whilst you seem happy to tell us that we must all be wrong because your mate who works in shop says different!
> who sell numerous brands of baselayers..
What shop? He is obviously a great salesman as he has got you believing a bunch of crap. Lifa works well, but no better than capeline, Dryflo, Polartec, etc. etc. By the sounds of it lots of us here have actually tried the different brands whilst you seem happy to tell us that we must all be wrong because your mate who works in shop says different!
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
obviously lots of interesting points on this topic,
i will add to it!
Base layer, get a tight fitting one, this way it touches the skin and helps pull moisture better, everyone has favourites, IMO Merino for warmth, and poly for moisture management, but there are good and bad types of poly and merino...
dump the windstopper as suggested, get a light pertex
Powerstretch or heavy Powerdry is good light mid layers, I prefer Powerdry as it drys/ "wicks" quicker, harder to find though.
Rab VR or Marmot driclime are good insulated windshirts, but permanently windproof and insulated, more versatility in separating layers, saying that, love mine.
Waterproof, as mentioned, lots going on this year with new fabrics, eVent and neoshell are air perm therefore better at moisture managment in real situations, stuff what a lab technician says about MVTR. and as said dont wear it unless you need to,
Rucsac, airspace back systems do help with sweaty back, but you still get sweaty shoulders and waist from the straps and the addition of a bulkier less stable rucsac IMO.
HTH, if not just confused you more!
obviously lots of interesting points on this topic,
i will add to it!
Base layer, get a tight fitting one, this way it touches the skin and helps pull moisture better, everyone has favourites, IMO Merino for warmth, and poly for moisture management, but there are good and bad types of poly and merino...
dump the windstopper as suggested, get a light pertex
Powerstretch or heavy Powerdry is good light mid layers, I prefer Powerdry as it drys/ "wicks" quicker, harder to find though.
Rab VR or Marmot driclime are good insulated windshirts, but permanently windproof and insulated, more versatility in separating layers, saying that, love mine.
Waterproof, as mentioned, lots going on this year with new fabrics, eVent and neoshell are air perm therefore better at moisture managment in real situations, stuff what a lab technician says about MVTR. and as said dont wear it unless you need to,
Rucsac, airspace back systems do help with sweaty back, but you still get sweaty shoulders and waist from the straps and the addition of a bulkier less stable rucsac IMO.
HTH, if not just confused you more!
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
Not sure how I missed this one...
The purpose of a base layer is twofold, IMHO:
i) to maintain a comfortable microclimate against the skin, by drawing water away from the skin
ii) to allow that water to be evaporated, so that the sweat can do its job of cooling the body.
To do this, it's a good idea if the base layer wicks sweat from the skin, and spreads it out over a large surface area, to maximise the potential for evaporation.
A base layer that merely moved water away from the body, and beaded up on the face of the base layer wouldn't be very effecitve at allowing the body to regulate its temperature.
The purpose of a mid layer (e.g. fleece) is to trap a layer of warm air close to the body, keeping it warm, whilst allowing the evaporated moisture to pass through the fabric and escape to the environment. Thus, a fabric with an open structure is useful (hence fleece). If the fabric is such that it traps water, this isn't good, since it removes the dead air space, and replaces it with much more thermally conductive water. If the water is trapped, it can only be removed by evaporation, which is likely to chill the wearer.
Since the mid layer is an open structure, the warm air it contains can be easily stripped away by wind, thus rendering it nearly useless. So, we need to protect the mid layer from wind using a shell that stops wind, but allows water vapour to continue to escape. Whilst most of the waterproof manufacturers will claim that their wonder fabrics will do this, the reality is that none of them are really yet up to the job. Which is why you're better off using a wind resistant shell most of the time, and carrying a lightweight waterproof to put on when it really starts to rain. The wind-resistant shell, being unproofed, breathes a lot better than a waterproof. You can choose a wind resistant shell to meet your needs for robustness and wind resistance (as well as design features).
This is a minor change to the long-established 3-layer concept; simply adding a windproof shell as a 'layer 3a' option, with a waterproof as 'layer 3b' option.
Now we need to consider the difference in body heat output between active and static states; this can be as much as a 7:1 ratio. So, whilst we're active, walking uphill, we don't need to wear too much clothing to stay comfortably warm (our 'action layer'). But, if we stop for any length of time, we're no longer putting out enough heat to stay warm. One solution is to add an insulating overlayer to wear on top of everything else (in climbing terms, a 'belay jacket'). Now, since we're likely to be carrying this quite a lot of the time, we want it to be thermally efficient, lightweight and compact, and those requirements are often best met by a down jacket or synthetic equivalent, depending on warmth needed, and conditions likely to be encountered.
So, a typical layering system might be:
base layer
100 weight fleece
lightweight, wind resistant shell
lightweight waterproof shell
synthetic overlayer
This system is versatile, coping with a range of activities and conditions, and allows the items to be selected to meet the needs of the activity and conditions, and be cared for and replaced individually, as required.
Not sure how I missed this one...
The purpose of a base layer is twofold, IMHO:
i) to maintain a comfortable microclimate against the skin, by drawing water away from the skin
ii) to allow that water to be evaporated, so that the sweat can do its job of cooling the body.
To do this, it's a good idea if the base layer wicks sweat from the skin, and spreads it out over a large surface area, to maximise the potential for evaporation.
A base layer that merely moved water away from the body, and beaded up on the face of the base layer wouldn't be very effecitve at allowing the body to regulate its temperature.
The purpose of a mid layer (e.g. fleece) is to trap a layer of warm air close to the body, keeping it warm, whilst allowing the evaporated moisture to pass through the fabric and escape to the environment. Thus, a fabric with an open structure is useful (hence fleece). If the fabric is such that it traps water, this isn't good, since it removes the dead air space, and replaces it with much more thermally conductive water. If the water is trapped, it can only be removed by evaporation, which is likely to chill the wearer.
Since the mid layer is an open structure, the warm air it contains can be easily stripped away by wind, thus rendering it nearly useless. So, we need to protect the mid layer from wind using a shell that stops wind, but allows water vapour to continue to escape. Whilst most of the waterproof manufacturers will claim that their wonder fabrics will do this, the reality is that none of them are really yet up to the job. Which is why you're better off using a wind resistant shell most of the time, and carrying a lightweight waterproof to put on when it really starts to rain. The wind-resistant shell, being unproofed, breathes a lot better than a waterproof. You can choose a wind resistant shell to meet your needs for robustness and wind resistance (as well as design features).
This is a minor change to the long-established 3-layer concept; simply adding a windproof shell as a 'layer 3a' option, with a waterproof as 'layer 3b' option.
Now we need to consider the difference in body heat output between active and static states; this can be as much as a 7:1 ratio. So, whilst we're active, walking uphill, we don't need to wear too much clothing to stay comfortably warm (our 'action layer'). But, if we stop for any length of time, we're no longer putting out enough heat to stay warm. One solution is to add an insulating overlayer to wear on top of everything else (in climbing terms, a 'belay jacket'). Now, since we're likely to be carrying this quite a lot of the time, we want it to be thermally efficient, lightweight and compact, and those requirements are often best met by a down jacket or synthetic equivalent, depending on warmth needed, and conditions likely to be encountered.
So, a typical layering system might be:
base layer
100 weight fleece
lightweight, wind resistant shell
lightweight waterproof shell
synthetic overlayer
This system is versatile, coping with a range of activities and conditions, and allows the items to be selected to meet the needs of the activity and conditions, and be cared for and replaced individually, as required.
In reply to captain paranoia:
hmmm... I've said most of this before....
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=377801
hmmm... I've said most of this before....
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=377801
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
My only two pennies worth is that no people's systems are the same - you really have to find what works best for you.
My only two pennies worth is that no people's systems are the same - you really have to find what works best for you.
In reply to Rick Atkinson:
I find the best way not to get too sweaty is to have very lofty, not very dense mid layer, something made of polartec thermal pro, or similar.
that way, without your hard shell on, the wind can cut through it, and you'll cool down nicely as all that sweat evaporates easily,
then when you need it, add the hard shell, and you'll have a thick layer of trapped air which will keep you nice and toasty, but because of the less dense fabric, air and water vapour will still be able to circulate through the system.
I find denser fleeces are way to sweaty, and dont allow the outer fabric to breathe like it should.
I find the best way not to get too sweaty is to have very lofty, not very dense mid layer, something made of polartec thermal pro, or similar.
that way, without your hard shell on, the wind can cut through it, and you'll cool down nicely as all that sweat evaporates easily,
then when you need it, add the hard shell, and you'll have a thick layer of trapped air which will keep you nice and toasty, but because of the less dense fabric, air and water vapour will still be able to circulate through the system.
I find denser fleeces are way to sweaty, and dont allow the outer fabric to breathe like it should.
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