UKC

Why do rucksacks have lids?

Lid pockets are either too small, meaning you can barely fit the essentials in, or too large, which makes the whole sack top heavy. When you're climbing with a helmet it stops you looking up and your centre of gravity is higher. I usually end up tucking the lid into the sack, but this is a faff and makes the sack less watertight.

A teardrop-style pack with a roomy front pocket would be far better as a climbing or scrambling day pack, but unless you want a little 20l commuting bag with a pen organiser and laptop sleeve they're pretty hard to come by (Podsacs and Aiguille excepted). Why is this? Am I missing something? I appreciate a zip is less field repairable than a lid and strap, but I haven't had a quality heavy-duty zip break on me for a long time.


Anyone ditch lidded sacks years ago?

In reply to chris_s:

no lids are great....meran you can pack it out with all sorts of stuff eg tents ropes etc that you might struggle with a zip top.

In reply to chris_s:
Removable lids are the way to go. Alternatively put all the crap from the lid into the body once3 the climbing kit is out and in use and it won't be top heavy or in the way of the helmet.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

after "lids" <insert comma>

:o

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Eh????

In reply to PeterM:

I've got a couple of packs with removable lids, but the pack is still quite high and you don't get the lower centre of gravity.

The other major disadvantage of a traditionally designed pack I've just remembered is that it's usually massively inconvenient to get at something at the bottom of the sack. That wouldn't be so with a teardrop design. Just lay it on its back and unzip.

In reply to chris_s:

Quite a lot of packs have a zip on the bottom for that very purpose.

In reply to smithy:

I know, but my point is that there don't seem to be many overwhelming advantages of packs with lids. To get round the helmet restriction issue you have to tuck the lid in and to get round the access issue you have to put an extra zip in. So why is this design so prevalent?

In reply to chris_s: Decent lid designs don't suffer from the helmet issue in my experience, especially if you cinch it up nice and tight.

In reply to chris_s:

Sounds like a long back length. I guess it it is different strokes and all that, but I would not want a zipped 'sac, and i've never struggled to get anything out my pack. Never had a 'sac get in the way of my helmet either (fnarr, fnarr!))

In reply to chris_s:

You need to get round the sack shops more to find one that suits you, there must be one. Removable ones may suit you, or, for any maker out there, another thin one under the removable one so when you want no top pocket you do not need it.

All sacks are a compromise, what you need for a weekends cragging is totally different to an expedition one where you have a lot of extra clothing and a four season sleeping bag and tent to carry.

Have a look here for ideas of what may suit you;
http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/index.html?category=2

In reply to chris_s: Zips do jam and break, especially if you try to cram too much in. Or else you forget to do em up and stuff cascades out.

In reply to chris_s: Berghaus used to do a few cragging bags like you describe. I've got a Bergy Loco somewhere- its 32l with no space at the top to speak of, which is great for ducking under things as well. Uses their short-lived 'Limpet' system, which fits really snug with no movement.

In reply to chris_s:
The french guides just stuff the lid section into the main compartment and then pull the drawstring bit up over the top.

In reply to chris_s:

Petzl, MacPac and a couple of others do the teardrop design. More usual for a lidless sack of Alpine size is the roll top such as the Crux AK30 or the Haglofs LIM series.

I too think lids are a bit of a waste of time, but I would not really fancy a teardrop design for Alpine or Scottish Winter, I am pretty sure I would struggle with the zips and bust them pretty easily.

I'm not after a compromise sack that does everything - I want a climbing daypack. I must have owned and used more than a dozen sacks over the last 20 years for different purposes. Some of them were worse than useless, some of them I've loved.

But they've all had lids and it occurred to me that this design of sack is not the best for climbing. Ski tourers all use teardrop sacks because of the low centre of gravity, but climbers don't seem to. So far the only objection seems to be that the zip might break.

I've been tucking my lid in for years - I just see no reason to despatch with it altogether.

I have looked at a couple of roll top lids - crux, golite. They look good, but you still have the access problems to the bottom of the sack. Some of you might be incredibly well organised, but I'm not and I suspect that won't change - so I'll always be delving around in the bottom of my sack.

Now this one looks pretty good http://www.podsacs.com/product_escape_pod.html anyone used it?

In reply to chris_s: With a lidless sack and a zipped closure where do you put the rope?

either in the sac making the sac 20L bigger than it need be

or

in a seperate rope bag, which for anything that you'll be climbing with a sack is going to get dangerous.

with a lidded sack it goes under the lid outside the main compartment on aproach and retreat where it is accesable. while climbing the sack is going to be half empty so if well designed ought to be compressed properly and out of the way.

In reply to davidwright:

I always pack the rope in the sack anyway.

In reply to chris_s:

My POD Black Ice has a removable lid which is a great design. Also doubles as a bumbag (and I've used it as such). I don't know if they do one with the same features but a smaller size (cragsac?)

In reply to chris_s:

I'm a bit sketchy about zips breaking, getting clogged with mud etc...
would there be anything horrendously bad about rotating the 'normal, vertical' bag 90 degrees, so the drawstring/flap was at the side? sort of like a satchel? [apart from the sheer, pointless beggering about fixing something that ain't broke ]

In reply to PeterM:

I should say that my current winter day pack is an old Black Diamond Ice, which has a removable lid. It's ok, but not ideal. The straps that allow it to extend and be removed just get in the way, slap me in the face in high winds etc. and the extra buckles add more bulk and weight.

I can see that I'm convincing no-one on this thread, so I'll just have to find a suitable teardrop sack buy it and give it a go. Then I can report back in a few months with smug success or come back with my lid between my legs with tales of bust zips and spilling contents....

In reply to chris_s:

Check out the Technicals bags in Blacks. I have one and there are great.

Removeable lid so it is there if you want it or not if you don't. 35l and 55l available.