UKC

Hi all, I've been reading the small print on another bit of gear so I'm back to pick your brains about it!

This time it's mallions. The manual for the ones I got from Decathlon says that you need to tighten them to 2.5 torque (I think that's what it says - the manual is actually quite hard to read). Google tells me that 2.5 torque is tighter than you can get with finger tightness. I'm not going to carry a spanner up a hill with me so: have you/would you bail on a finger-tightened mallion? Ever hear of it going wrong? Other thoughts on mallions as bail gear? 

Cheers

I reckon it's fine, yes. Have used several that were damn finger tight and am still alive. The number of threads that are turned and overlapped on a closed maillon gate compared to that of a conventional screw gate biner reassures me. Plus, if its good enough for Dave MacLeod to use every time he is top rope soloing on a shunt (see his latest youtube) then it's good enough for me...

H

It will be fine for bailing. The torque is more to ensure it doesn't rattle itself open over time, rather than giving it extra strength. So long as you have several rotations of full thread engagement it will have it's full strength.

Comparison to a screwgate is slightly different - on a screwgate the screw is just stopping the gate opening, not actually carrying any load. As a rule of thumb, a screw thread can carry it's full strength after about 1 diameters' worth of engagement.

Maillons for bailing are appallingly antisocial, clogging up the (presumably) crux bolt with an extraneous piece of crap that is hard to remove. Just use a krab.

Maillons are well worth carrying for everything other than sport routes though- lighter & cheaper than leaving a screwgate and safer than a snapgate, and more community spirited than just threading ab tat on rap lines that will see traffic. 

I'd also say that I don't have the same aversion to maillons on sport climbs, often useful and rarely causing problems when clipping bolts, although it does bring to mind a discussion I saw recently about the damage that can be done to a second carabiner clipped into a bolt when two quickdraws are used back to back for extra safety...

Finger tight is fine.
Perhaps more importantly, is to set it up so that the rope/gravity/vibration will tighten it as it's being used.
You can also use another one as a spanner if you happen to have two.

Yeah it'll be fine, it's at least as secure as a typical screw gate, probably more so. 

Plus, it means someone coming along later can remove it easily enough. 

Depending on how many you're carrying you can always have some screwed up tight that you can thread with your own cord, and some loose you can tighten as and when needed. Might help piece of mind.

To be fair, if you're carrying dedicated tat and mallions I doubt the extra couple of hundred grams (if that) of a small spanner will be noticed.

True. I was indeed primarily thinking of sport climbing, since that's mostly what I do these days.

For most hangers, where it's easy to clip your own quickdraw without first removing the maillon, I don't see a problem. I just clip UNDER the maillon so my krab sits properly on the hanger and press on. On the way down I'll remove the maillon, which is a very good reason NOT to tighten them with a spanner.

Do not use maillons for bailing from sport routes!

Using them is lazy and extremely antisocial and in the UK often results in routes littered with rusted junk and in the worst case renders bolt or anchors awkward and/or unsafe to use for other climbers.

As with many things in climbing, just because lots of other people do things, doesn't make it right.

On the rare occasions that you might need to bail from a sport route a cheap wiregate (or two) is far better to leave behind. 

As regards the more common situation of retreating from either trad climbs or big mountain routes it's still questionable whether carrying a maillon (or maillons) is a good option compared with using krabs from your rack or carrying "leaver biners".

In many unplanned situations, there is no absolute requirement to leave any metalwork behind and all you need is sufficient 'abseil tat'. As such, carrying a dedicated maillon isn't really necessary.

For planned abseils or for perhaps improving an insitu abseil point, leaving behind metalwork makes much more sense and is the public spirited thing to do. However, it does raise the issue of what metalwork is appropriate. Most real life abseil stations accumulate multiple strands of rope, cord or tape. As such, a large stainless steel ring or a large stainless maillon would be the gold standard although at a weight and cost greater than a standard screwgate. Conversely a small non-stainless maillon is not particularly useful as they are too small to accommodate multiple strands or allow future climbers to back up your anchor, which will have rusted in any case.

The inescapable conclusion is that either having a cheap or old screwgate on your rack (or for the weight obsessed buying dedicated alloy rap rings) just makes far more sense than deciding to carry something that doesn't actually do the tasks particularly well.

Having said all that, not all of us are in the position of having been climbing for two decades and having accumulated a varied collection of old or found krabs we can happily leave behind or recycling on abseil stations. For those desperately not wanting to sacrifice some of their shiny new rack, carrying a maillon does have some logic and is perfectly understandable. Although as hopefully described above, the simplistic appeal of cost savings in the shop clashes with the reality of what happens on the crag or mountain.

[edited to fix spelling/typos]

Yes I would bail with care on an appropriately rated finger tight mallion, indeed I have.

Torque has units, usually Nm or Ftlb, luckily they're pretty similar in scale so it doesn't matter too much which is quoted, you'll struggle either way to get a small mallion that tight by hand.

They are not to not to be considered safe when open, unlike a krab a mallion perfectly capable of supporting you when closed *will* uncurl and drop you when open.

You can use a second mallion as a spanner which is one option.

Another precaution you can take is install the mallion so the collar screws down, with gravity, this way any vibration does not act to open it. Also ensure that if the rope is to run through the mallion by design or accident as it stretches unevenly that it doesn't rub the collar or if it does it rubs it closed not open.

jk

That might be the case in most of Europe but on classic UK routes like Tessellations (7b) at Swanage they turn into rusted lumps that are now impossible to remove.

Buy a clipstick + learn how to clipstick up a route. You'll never need to leave a mallion again!

No good if you can't do the moves to the top though. Clipsticking back down the route is the real skill

You clip the rope up above you and then haul yourself to the top to thread the anchors and lower off.

The recommended torque is 2.5Nm which virtually no-one can measure (I had to build a torque measuring tool to do it) and it´s very, very small. Finger tight and a quarter turn is the alternative. Overtightened they just get weaker.

Bailing on maillons is anti-social, karabiners are cheap, cheaper than a rated maillon. I´ve never left either on a sport route in all my climbing career

Makes sense, I misread as 25! I've never given finger tight mallions a second thought.

Jk

Tighten one finger tight then load it with body weight like you would when rapping off it and try and undo it....

I don't get the problem with maillons - if the bolt is too congested by the maillon to clip the bolt I clip the maillon and remove it on descent. Personally I feel better with a decent maillon than a bailer carabiner which is often harder to assess, welded shut with corrosion and gums up the bolt more effectively.

You have to be careful with them - if they aren't done up they are quite weak (especially the small ones) and can fail with the load of a climber.  There is also a danger of them undoing if the descending rope rubs the gate (which is one of the reasons why climbing maillons are asymmetric so the rope end is far from the gate but I've encountered other quick links which are more symmetric where avoiding rope contacting the gate is impossible).  If there is danger of this just make sure the direction of the rub from the lower off tightens rather than untightens the gate.

As far as taking a spanner - as a sport climbing back up - never.  As placing fixed gear - always.

You may be happy to trust that the unknown previous person used a proper climbing rated maillon and not an identical-looking bit of crap from B&Q. I'm not.

I don't know about that.  I've always got a spare krab I'm carrying for the nut key, prussics, even the one for racking wires.  I don't really buy the need to abandon screwgates and if anyone comes across an abandoned snap gate of mine they can keep it.

I don't know where this obsession for carrying an entirely one use piece of kit that is fiddly to use (especially in extremis, when its needed).

Abandoned maillons (and presumably gear) are bad enough on trad but on sport routes on the hardest parts, they are almost impossible to remove on the lead and just ruin your own attempt on the route.

When looking at it from a UK perspective it makes little sense to carry dedicated gear like mallions and I agree with the sentiments about their use on sport routes.

In some instances however, it can be well worth carrying, especially outside the UK. More often than not I come across grotesque looking tat heaps slung around chockstones or boulders at  belays or on abseil descent routes that are just rotting away. The ugliest tat piles are often on the most popular routes and some places even have more than one. The reality is that little effort is made by people to keep things tidy and instead just add more tat and clog up the existing metalware.

Going back to that social thing mentioned above, carrying a few metres of cord, a couple of mallions and a knife puts you in a much better position to clear abseil stations and belays of absolute crap and leave something reliable for the next people there.

I think that's my point - I'm happy with the B+Q maillon that the bailer carabiner that was dropped in the sea 20 years ago and has been sitting in the bottom of your bag ever since because you couldn't throw it in the bin.

This just doesn't match my experience - I've never had a problem with a maillon.  I've definitely had problems with crap rotting carabiners.

Clipstick to the top...?

What's everyone got against maillons on sport routes? I personally love finding maillons for the combined reasons of gaining a free maillon and petty one upmanship.

All maillons I find are treated as borrowed and are generally relocated at a later date, allowing for a cost effective and safe retreat option.

Also yes finger tight is fine, if you are worried just orient it so the gate tightens downwards preventing it vibrating open.

What's more you know how to spell it, and, presumably, to pronounce it.

Of course.

Albeit I have nothing to offer in the mallion vs crab debate if you are using a mallion then threadlock might not be a bad idea. Or if none available nail polish. You can apply to the threads beforehand (as long as they are fully dried and cured before going anywhere near any soft climbing apparel) This will have two effects the first being to stop any rattling loose and secondly to prevent a build up of rust inside the thread and stop someone removing it at a later date...

And ... ukclimbing knows how to spell "maillon". 34 hits for the correct spelling versus 19 for "mallion" so far.

If you think you need threadlock, you have definitely chosen the wrong tool for the job !

https://media1.tenor.com/images/b7a075b2e000da1159fe730e34980f60/tenor.gif

Guilty as charged

I have some, never used them, mine are stainless, so they wouldn't rust up, and I'd be more than happy to use them finger tight (with no thread lock!! ).

I got them after abbing off some dodgy old shit a couple of time, while trad climbing, £2 each and re-usable, if they're left behind, they would be miles better than some old aluminium cack that's been there for ages. I wouldn't use mild steel of galv gear because of the difficulty in removing it.

My friend witnessed a serious accident a few years back in Finland where a climber put in a maillon to lower off a rope and strip his gear below. The rope running through it undid the gate,  the maillon simply bent open under the climber's weight and he fell to the ground. Fortunately he survived but was seriously injured.

Never left a maillon (not mallion) in my life. On a sport route I would clipstick the next bolt and haul myself up the rest of the route if need be. That way I can strip the route properly without leaving any junk behind for someone else tidy up on my behalf.

I’ve been told that there is a trick way of tightening or untightening a maillon using a single krab (though two krabs seems more likely). Maybe have a play around and see if you can work it out.

Agree with points made above that it’s not good to leave them as they rust shut so leaving old krabs is better.

Thanks for the detailed response. How would you not leave metalwork behind? Could you explain? 

Oh yes, oops. These ones quote Nm.

Good idea, thanks!

Not in Spanish Decathlon. The maillons were €2 something, caribiners were a lot more (can't remember how much but it put me off).

I've never left anything on a sport route either. My question was with alpine and multi pitch trad in mind. 

Wow, lots of responses, thanks everyone. Turns out they're called maillons (not mallions). I bought them after having to bail off a mountain in Picos de Europa and leave a decent caribiner and a sling behind. So with long, wandering mountain and ridge routes in mind. I didnt see any other climbers and I wasn't on a route as such, so they'd be unlikely to get in anyone's way. Not sport routes. I've never left gear on a sport route - always managed to get my shit back either by climbing an easier route close by, or on a couple of occasions persuading someone less pumped/better at climbing than me to go and get it.

You can tighten them using another maillon, screw it up against the nut of the first and twist.