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I see that the BMC are recommending that climbers do NOT use the thumb method of holding the cam to pay out slack as it seems to have led to one or two incidents. I'm not sure where this leaves the GriGri as everyone who has used one knows paying out slack quickly by just using the device like an ordinary plate simply does not work.
I was thinking of getting one to replace my Click-Up and came across the article below whilst researching. The only issue with the Click-Up, as far as I can tell, is a tendency for it to twist the rope. What will others do? Ignore the advice? Hold the ropes as recommended by the BMC? Stop using a GriGri?
Petzl do not seem fully committed to the thumb method either and do give warnings about it. If they were fully on board I would have expected them to change the design of the part where the forefinger goes to make it more user friendly.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/gri-gri-unmasking-the-myths
Al
I was thinking of getting one to replace my Click-Up and came across the article below whilst researching. The only issue with the Click-Up, as far as I can tell, is a tendency for it to twist the rope. What will others do? Ignore the advice? Hold the ropes as recommended by the BMC? Stop using a GriGri?
Petzl do not seem fully committed to the thumb method either and do give warnings about it. If they were fully on board I would have expected them to change the design of the part where the forefinger goes to make it more user friendly.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/gri-gri-unmasking-the-myths
Al
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In reply to GridNorth:
I think it depends on the rope. I use an Edelrid Boa 9.8 and it pays out easily in a GriGri 2 without touching the cam. I used to have a Mammut 10.0 that was much stiffer and it was a complete nightmare to use with a GriGri.
I think it depends on the rope. I use an Edelrid Boa 9.8 and it pays out easily in a GriGri 2 without touching the cam. I used to have a Mammut 10.0 that was much stiffer and it was a complete nightmare to use with a GriGri.
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In reply to GridNorth:
It does mostly with good ropes in my experience; I only have problems with fat fuzzy wall ropes.
Do you have a source for this? It's still the recommended technique in the current handbook
> paying out slack quickly by just using the device like an ordinary plate simply does not work.
It does mostly with good ropes in my experience; I only have problems with fat fuzzy wall ropes.
> Petzl do not seem fully committed to the thumb method either and do give warnings about it.
Do you have a source for this? It's still the recommended technique in the current handbook
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In reply to GridNorth:
This advice doesn't actually concern the official process of grigri useage which recommends holding the grigri with index finger hooked under the metal curve on the right hand edge and thumb applied to the cam only when paying out slack, otherwise remaining on the back edge (non cam) of the device.
I'm sure many will agree with me that with an attentive belay this should cause no issues whatsoever. I'm blown away by the idea that someone could fall 15m on a grigri without the fall being arrested - why did the belayer not simply sit/run back to engage the cam?
This advice doesn't actually concern the official process of grigri useage which recommends holding the grigri with index finger hooked under the metal curve on the right hand edge and thumb applied to the cam only when paying out slack, otherwise remaining on the back edge (non cam) of the device.
I'm sure many will agree with me that with an attentive belay this should cause no issues whatsoever. I'm blown away by the idea that someone could fall 15m on a grigri without the fall being arrested - why did the belayer not simply sit/run back to engage the cam?
Post edited at 11:32
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In reply to GridNorth:
The article says there are been 'very few' incidents and accidents with the Grigri - my understanding is that there have been 'quite a few',
Chris
The article says there are been 'very few' incidents and accidents with the Grigri - my understanding is that there have been 'quite a few',
Chris
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In reply to GridNorth:
The article is ten years old. The method shown by Petzl is only applicable to, and recommended for the Grigri2 which came out six years ago. The finger lip and the the part of the cam which is relevant was modified to take this into account.
My personal advice (even though I am a member of the BMC Tech commitee) is to ignore the article, especially if you are not using the device they are referring to. For the GriGri and the GriGri2 the "gas works" method is my personal preference and that of all the climbers I know.
The belayer moving in and out is often the easiest solution.
Short roping the climber also occurs with the Click-Up, releasing is even more of a fumble than with a locked GriGri
The article is ten years old. The method shown by Petzl is only applicable to, and recommended for the Grigri2 which came out six years ago. The finger lip and the the part of the cam which is relevant was modified to take this into account.
My personal advice (even though I am a member of the BMC Tech commitee) is to ignore the article, especially if you are not using the device they are referring to. For the GriGri and the GriGri2 the "gas works" method is my personal preference and that of all the climbers I know.
The belayer moving in and out is often the easiest solution.
Short roping the climber also occurs with the Click-Up, releasing is even more of a fumble than with a locked GriGri
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In reply to jimtitt:
Almost every time in my experience of being belayed with them.
> Short roping the climber also occurs with the Click-Up
Almost every time in my experience of being belayed with them.
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In reply to jimtitt:
I totally agree about releasing being harder but I've only experienced a couple of "lock ups" which were due to the rope being snatched rather than taken in quickly. With regards to the age of the article, it may be ten years old but it's presented as current, and I didn't see anything to suggest otherwise. Perhaps I wasn't looking closely enough but if it's out of date perhaps the BMC should consider redrafting as I am now a little confused. The BMC say don't use this method, Petzl saying use it but be careful. It's not exactly selling the device to me I'm afraid.
Al
> Short roping the climber also occurs with the Click-Up, releasing is even more of a fumble than with a locked GriGri
I totally agree about releasing being harder but I've only experienced a couple of "lock ups" which were due to the rope being snatched rather than taken in quickly. With regards to the age of the article, it may be ten years old but it's presented as current, and I didn't see anything to suggest otherwise. Perhaps I wasn't looking closely enough but if it's out of date perhaps the BMC should consider redrafting as I am now a little confused. The BMC say don't use this method, Petzl saying use it but be careful. It's not exactly selling the device to me I'm afraid.
Al
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In reply to MischaHY:
Perhaps because there is also a trend these days advising climbers to give dynamic belays. I'm not convinced that you can do both. It's all getting very complicated isn't it.
I see that for the GriGri+ it now recommends holding the bottom of the device rather than the curved lip. This together with the extended cam and easier action seems like an improvement. Must try and get my hands on one to try it. As things stand I don't think I would buy a GriGri2.
Al
> I'm sure many will agree with me that with an attentive belay this should cause no issues whatsoever. I'm blown away by the idea that someone could fall 15m on a grigri without the fall being arrested - why did the belayer not simply sit/run back to engage the cam?
Perhaps because there is also a trend these days advising climbers to give dynamic belays. I'm not convinced that you can do both. It's all getting very complicated isn't it.
I see that for the GriGri+ it now recommends holding the bottom of the device rather than the curved lip. This together with the extended cam and easier action seems like an improvement. Must try and get my hands on one to try it. As things stand I don't think I would buy a GriGri2.
Al
Post edited at 12:02
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In reply to AlanLittle:
With a Click-Up I've only short roped someone a couple of times as I said above and I've never been short roped myself. If I was you I'd be looking to the belayer and not the device. Thick, furry ropes can be a problem but they are with every device. With my 9.2 Beal Joker it's a dream to use other than I've mentioned on another thread that it seems more prone to twisting ropes.
Al
> Almost every time in my experience of being belayed with them.
With a Click-Up I've only short roped someone a couple of times as I said above and I've never been short roped myself. If I was you I'd be looking to the belayer and not the device. Thick, furry ropes can be a problem but they are with every device. With my 9.2 Beal Joker it's a dream to use other than I've mentioned on another thread that it seems more prone to twisting ropes.
Al
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In reply to AlanLittle:
The alpine up has been my main cragging device for a good few years now, and whilst it's certainly a bit "knacky", for me the learning curve to avoid short-roping my climber was shorter than the grigri. That might have been something to do with the fact that I had more belaying experience by then of course, but with a bit of practice it really shouldn't happen outside of something else going wrong (someone standing on your brake strand as you're yarding out slack or the like)
> Almost every time in my experience of being belayed with them.
The alpine up has been my main cragging device for a good few years now, and whilst it's certainly a bit "knacky", for me the learning curve to avoid short-roping my climber was shorter than the grigri. That might have been something to do with the fact that I had more belaying experience by then of course, but with a bit of practice it really shouldn't happen outside of something else going wrong (someone standing on your brake strand as you're yarding out slack or the like)
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In reply to GridNorth:
It is fumbly, and regardless of unintentional lockups if your resting climber pulls on and immediately wants slack you have to be quick off the mark resetting your device. I do often think that if they could find a way to make it slicker without compromising safely they would have the perfect belay device and corner the market; I suspect the laws of physics are rather against them there though.
> I totally agree about releasing being harder but I've only experienced a couple of "lock ups" which were due to the rope being snatched rather than taken in quickly.
It is fumbly, and regardless of unintentional lockups if your resting climber pulls on and immediately wants slack you have to be quick off the mark resetting your device. I do often think that if they could find a way to make it slicker without compromising safely they would have the perfect belay device and corner the market; I suspect the laws of physics are rather against them there though.
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In reply to Ciro:
And the laws of dominant market share of the GriGri
Al
> I suspect the laws of physics are rather against them there though.
And the laws of dominant market share of the GriGri
Al
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In reply to GridNorth:
Has anyone got experience of the Madrock Lifeguard or indeed the Revo?
Is it, perhaps, time for another assisted device review?
Al
Has anyone got experience of the Madrock Lifeguard or indeed the Revo?
Is it, perhaps, time for another assisted device review?
Al
Post edited at 13:13
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In reply to GridNorth:
As Jim has pointed out, this is a legacy article, from before my time. As it is likely to cause more confusion than it is to provide good advice, I've pulled it from our website.
I worked for Lyon before moving to the BMC, and a method for paying out fast slack by briefly disengaging the cam was approved by Petzl for the original GriGri during that time. The important thing to note is that this method is explicitly different to that discussed in the article referenced above.
The thumb method is lethal because it involves holding the cam arm down in a squeeze grip, which when panicked you will naturally only squeeze more tightly. This disengages the cam, but to add to it, the thumb method also involves also letting go of the rope with the control hand. The end result is an uncontrolled plummet because the rope is not held by either the hand or the engaged cam.
The Petzl method for the original GriGri involves keeping the hands roughly in the usual belay position, and by rather awkwardly cupping the device prevent the cam arm rising with the little finger. This means that the rope is still held in the control hand, which is required to help initiate tension in the rope which then engages the cam. In addition, the awkward position of the hand means that a panic squeeze tends to slide the finger off the cam arm and allow it to engage - you certainly cannot apply as much force as you can with the thumb method.
The key point in Petzl's advice is to pay attention when belaying - when you do, you can anticipate the need for slack and hardly ever, if at all, need to use the fast slack method at all.
As it happens, I'm currently writing a 2 part article which explains how braking devices work, part 1 focusing on manual devices should be out soon.
As Jim has pointed out, this is a legacy article, from before my time. As it is likely to cause more confusion than it is to provide good advice, I've pulled it from our website.
I worked for Lyon before moving to the BMC, and a method for paying out fast slack by briefly disengaging the cam was approved by Petzl for the original GriGri during that time. The important thing to note is that this method is explicitly different to that discussed in the article referenced above.
The thumb method is lethal because it involves holding the cam arm down in a squeeze grip, which when panicked you will naturally only squeeze more tightly. This disengages the cam, but to add to it, the thumb method also involves also letting go of the rope with the control hand. The end result is an uncontrolled plummet because the rope is not held by either the hand or the engaged cam.
The Petzl method for the original GriGri involves keeping the hands roughly in the usual belay position, and by rather awkwardly cupping the device prevent the cam arm rising with the little finger. This means that the rope is still held in the control hand, which is required to help initiate tension in the rope which then engages the cam. In addition, the awkward position of the hand means that a panic squeeze tends to slide the finger off the cam arm and allow it to engage - you certainly cannot apply as much force as you can with the thumb method.
The key point in Petzl's advice is to pay attention when belaying - when you do, you can anticipate the need for slack and hardly ever, if at all, need to use the fast slack method at all.
As it happens, I'm currently writing a 2 part article which explains how braking devices work, part 1 focusing on manual devices should be out soon.
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In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
But why would you panic at all? If you're well used to holding falls it's a non event. I've held a fall or two while paying out slack with the thumb method, and the rope still runs though the palm of the hand and the reaction was to grab the rope.
Doesn't that prove the phrase "The thumb method is lethal" is false?
> The thumb method is lethal because it involves holding the cam arm down in a squeeze grip, which when panicked you will naturally only squeeze more tightly. This disengages the cam, but to add to it, the thumb method also involves also letting go of the rope with the control hand. The end result is an uncontrolled plummet because the rope is not held by either the hand or the engaged cam.
But why would you panic at all? If you're well used to holding falls it's a non event. I've held a fall or two while paying out slack with the thumb method, and the rope still runs though the palm of the hand and the reaction was to grab the rope.
Doesn't that prove the phrase "The thumb method is lethal" is false?
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In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I think your misconstruing what the thumb method described is. The rope can't run through the hand with the thumb method, because you aren't holding it. For the right handed belayer, it's left hand clamping the device and right hand pulling up slack.
The panic squeeze reaction is a well known instinctive response, well done for training yourself out of it.
I think your misconstruing what the thumb method described is. The rope can't run through the hand with the thumb method, because you aren't holding it. For the right handed belayer, it's left hand clamping the device and right hand pulling up slack.
The panic squeeze reaction is a well known instinctive response, well done for training yourself out of it.
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In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
Is that realistic though? For onsighting and redpoint burns you can do this no problem, but for working routes most sport climbers are used to you keeping slack out of the system in order to be able to take quickly and then releasing it fast when they need it... the methods may have changed slightly, but I don't think I've ever seen someone who belays with a grigri and doesn't use a fast-slack method routinely.
> The key point in Petzl's advice is to pay attention when belaying - when you do, you can anticipate the need for slack and hardly ever, if at all, need to use the fast slack method at all.
Is that realistic though? For onsighting and redpoint burns you can do this no problem, but for working routes most sport climbers are used to you keeping slack out of the system in order to be able to take quickly and then releasing it fast when they need it... the methods may have changed slightly, but I don't think I've ever seen someone who belays with a grigri and doesn't use a fast-slack method routinely.
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In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but this comes across as alarmist nonsense.
The current "Gaswerk" method *as recommended by Petzl in the frigging handbook* involves a thumb on the cam, and for anybody (e.g. me) without an encyclopaedic knowledge of the history of the no-longer-sold original grigri, you appear to be stating an official BMC position that the manufacturer's recommended usage of one of the most common belay devices is "lethal".
I assume this is not the case, and I suggest you need a better name for whatever this other "thumb method" was.
> The thumb method is lethal
I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but this comes across as alarmist nonsense.
The current "Gaswerk" method *as recommended by Petzl in the frigging handbook* involves a thumb on the cam, and for anybody (e.g. me) without an encyclopaedic knowledge of the history of the no-longer-sold original grigri, you appear to be stating an official BMC position that the manufacturer's recommended usage of one of the most common belay devices is "lethal".
I assume this is not the case, and I suggest you need a better name for whatever this other "thumb method" was.
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In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
Okay, sorry. Maybe needs a better name then? Sounds like a truly awful way to belay.
Most people I sport climb with are the same, it just comes with experience and that comes from redpointing, where holding many falls each session is normal. Nothing special about me. I think the attitude that panic is normal or acceptable when a climber falls needs to be challenged generally. Panic when holding a fall is not a good thing, and I think a minimum standard should be to train yourself out of this in a safe way. And I think this idea should be promoted by the BMC and climbing walls running belay courses.
> I think your misconstruing what the thumb method described is. The rope can't run through the hand with the thumb method, because you aren't holding it. For the right handed belayer, it's left hand clamping the device and right hand pulling up slack.
Okay, sorry. Maybe needs a better name then? Sounds like a truly awful way to belay.
> The panic squeeze reaction is a well known instinctive response, well done for training yourself out of it.
Most people I sport climb with are the same, it just comes with experience and that comes from redpointing, where holding many falls each session is normal. Nothing special about me. I think the attitude that panic is normal or acceptable when a climber falls needs to be challenged generally. Panic when holding a fall is not a good thing, and I think a minimum standard should be to train yourself out of this in a safe way. And I think this idea should be promoted by the BMC and climbing walls running belay courses.
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In reply to Ciro:
That's a fair point but most climbers spend a pretty small proportion of their time working routes as opposed to climbing them normally. If you are belaying someone attentively enough to give them a dynamic belay, you probably rarely need to use the fast slack method. This is kind of academic anyway - the methods recommended by Petzl to give fast slack work pretty well once you are familiar with the device.
That's a fair point but most climbers spend a pretty small proportion of their time working routes as opposed to climbing them normally. If you are belaying someone attentively enough to give them a dynamic belay, you probably rarely need to use the fast slack method. This is kind of academic anyway - the methods recommended by Petzl to give fast slack work pretty well once you are familiar with the device.
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In reply to GridNorth:
https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-with-the-GRIGRI
As grigri is one of the most used belay devices the causes of failure are well documented and easy to avoid them
https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-with-the-GRIGRI
As grigri is one of the most used belay devices the causes of failure are well documented and easy to avoid them
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In reply to GridNorth:
Personally I would back into the rope as the climber fell sufficiently to engage the cam, then allow the rope to pull me forward so as to give as dynamic a belay as possible - it's not an ideal situation but thankfully doesn't come along very often.
Personally I would back into the rope as the climber fell sufficiently to engage the cam, then allow the rope to pull me forward so as to give as dynamic a belay as possible - it's not an ideal situation but thankfully doesn't come along very often.
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I rarely have to press the cam, except when somebody suddenly pulls a lot of rope. Just stepping forwards solve the issue 95% of the time, using the same methode as a ATC/tube style device. But this depends on the rope, but i prefer my ropes smooth.
Post edited at 16:08
In reply to tjin:
Good method, but very crag specific. Sometimes just finding a flat spot for you and the rope can be hard enough.
> Just stepping forwards solve the issue 95% of the time
Good method, but very crag specific. Sometimes just finding a flat spot for you and the rope can be hard enough.
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In reply to AlanLittle:
Well yes, it´ s all a bit confusing! The original thumb method involved releasing the rope altogether to depress the cam, the Gaswerk method added the refinement of holding the rope at the same time which forces the cam to lock whether you are holding it down or not. Fortunately Dan has removed the article so the confusion should no longer exist.
It´ s actually a reasonable point mentioned elsewhere that articles should be regularly reviewed to see if things have changed or new models have appeared and the original subject mentioned not actually the current model available.
Another point is research and experience has shown that the "dropped because the cam was held down" problem commonly mentioned as the Grigri death failure mode is in reality rarely if ever the problem, it´ s virtually impossible for the GriGri not to lock using either of the modern methods BUT we now know that gripping the climbers side rope too hard will cause the rope to slide and the device not to lock. This is also a feature of the ClickUp and a few others, the Cinch being one.
Well yes, it´ s all a bit confusing! The original thumb method involved releasing the rope altogether to depress the cam, the Gaswerk method added the refinement of holding the rope at the same time which forces the cam to lock whether you are holding it down or not. Fortunately Dan has removed the article so the confusion should no longer exist.
It´ s actually a reasonable point mentioned elsewhere that articles should be regularly reviewed to see if things have changed or new models have appeared and the original subject mentioned not actually the current model available.
Another point is research and experience has shown that the "dropped because the cam was held down" problem commonly mentioned as the Grigri death failure mode is in reality rarely if ever the problem, it´ s virtually impossible for the GriGri not to lock using either of the modern methods BUT we now know that gripping the climbers side rope too hard will cause the rope to slide and the device not to lock. This is also a feature of the ClickUp and a few others, the Cinch being one.
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In reply to AlanLittle:
Click ups only one i found i can use, still keeps the way of belaying..gri gri i fail so bad cus its a nightmare
Click ups only one i found i can use, still keeps the way of belaying..gri gri i fail so bad cus its a nightmare
In reply to GridNorth:
The way I tend to do it (which is how I was shown by someone else well before I knew there was another option) is roughly thus:
- Slide right hand down rope
- Tightly holding the rope, bring the right hand up and thumb the cam, pull the slack through, release the cam
- Repeat as required
So basically the same way as you'd do it on a non-brake-assist device (i.e. tightly holding the dead rope when the device is not locked off). That way only one "armful" could be pulled through if the climber fell at that second, same as a regular device.
The way I tend to do it (which is how I was shown by someone else well before I knew there was another option) is roughly thus:
- Slide right hand down rope
- Tightly holding the rope, bring the right hand up and thumb the cam, pull the slack through, release the cam
- Repeat as required
So basically the same way as you'd do it on a non-brake-assist device (i.e. tightly holding the dead rope when the device is not locked off). That way only one "armful" could be pulled through if the climber fell at that second, same as a regular device.
Post edited at 20:51
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
I'd have thought there'd be more from cack-handed lowering off then fully releasing in panic - sufficiently so that Petzl have redesigned the latest version so pulling hard on the lever locks it up.
> The article says there are been 'very few' incidents and accidents with the Grigri - my understanding is that there have been 'quite a few',
I'd have thought there'd be more from cack-handed lowering off then fully releasing in panic - sufficiently so that Petzl have redesigned the latest version so pulling hard on the lever locks it up.
In reply to GridNorth:
I don't like a gri gri or similar.
An ATC type device suits me. Simple. No additional parts. Idiot proof - and as an idiot I prefer this.
I don't like a gri gri or similar.
An ATC type device suits me. Simple. No additional parts. Idiot proof - and as an idiot I prefer this.
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In reply to bouldery bits:
It's not idiot proof though is it? Momentary lapse of concentration and a leader could be on the deck. I know it's happened to me. I like to be belayed with an assisted braking device indoors as it's too easy to get distracted. At least with an assisted braking device you get a second chance.
Al
It's not idiot proof though is it? Momentary lapse of concentration and a leader could be on the deck. I know it's happened to me. I like to be belayed with an assisted braking device indoors as it's too easy to get distracted. At least with an assisted braking device you get a second chance.
Al
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In reply to bouldery bits:
If you're belaying you can't really afford to be an idiot regardless of the device used.
> Idiot proof - and as an idiot I prefer this.
If you're belaying you can't really afford to be an idiot regardless of the device used.
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The issue with GriGri's is that i see half the people using belaying method marked in the manual with a death icon. Like people just letting go of the rope completely between paying out the rope, or just belay with the thumb on the cam permanently, a hand on the climber side of the rope and nothing holding the brake side of the rope.
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In reply to tjin:
I probably see way more people belaying badly with an ATC or similar than I see belaying badly with a gri-gri. As mentioned above, at least there's a [theoretical] safety fall-back with the latter.
I probably see way more people belaying badly with an ATC or similar than I see belaying badly with a gri-gri. As mentioned above, at least there's a [theoretical] safety fall-back with the latter.
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In reply to tjin:
Which is exactly the reason for the original article, as many people were using the device incorrectly. These types of device have a rather unwieldy official designation: braking device with manually assisted locking. They require a hand braking force to activate the change in geometry which arrests the rope.
In reply to Fraser:
This is why it isn't wise to consider the locking mechanism as a fail-safe, the device still requires active user intervention to work. Think of it as a power assist. You still need to react to grip the rope and hold the fall, but the power assist means that the force you can apply isn't dependent on how strong your grip is.
Which is exactly the reason for the original article, as many people were using the device incorrectly. These types of device have a rather unwieldy official designation: braking device with manually assisted locking. They require a hand braking force to activate the change in geometry which arrests the rope.
In reply to Fraser:
This is why it isn't wise to consider the locking mechanism as a fail-safe, the device still requires active user intervention to work. Think of it as a power assist. You still need to react to grip the rope and hold the fall, but the power assist means that the force you can apply isn't dependent on how strong your grip is.
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In reply to tjin:
That's an issue with the belayer, not the device. My point is that the weaknesses of the design leads to this type of behaviour. Used correctly a GriGri is a good device and indoors better than an ATC type of plate.
Al
That's an issue with the belayer, not the device. My point is that the weaknesses of the design leads to this type of behaviour. Used correctly a GriGri is a good device and indoors better than an ATC type of plate.
Al
Post edited at 10:31
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In reply to John Stainforth:
I used to be able to double de-clutch and cadence brake, and was pretty good at judging when to ease the choke.
I don't think the atrophying of any of those skills has made me a less safe driver.
I used to be able to double de-clutch and cadence brake, and was pretty good at judging when to ease the choke.
I don't think the atrophying of any of those skills has made me a less safe driver.
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In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
Without wanting to get into a circular discussion about the details, I wouldn't say you need to 'grip the rope' to hold a fall, the gri-gri itself does that; your hand on the dead end of the rope is only really there as a fail-safe action. Having said that, I always tell my belayer to get his hand back on the rope if they remove whilst I'm dangling in mid-air, if I'm working a route.
In reply to john stainforth:
Yes, in theory I'd agree, but in practice I see more bad belaying with a plate-type device than with a gri-gri.
> This is why it isn't wise to consider the locking mechanism as a fail-safe, the device still requires active user intervention to work. Think of it as a power assist. You still need to react to grip the rope and hold the fall, but the power assist means that the force you can apply isn't dependent on how strong your grip is.
Without wanting to get into a circular discussion about the details, I wouldn't say you need to 'grip the rope' to hold a fall, the gri-gri itself does that; your hand on the dead end of the rope is only really there as a fail-safe action. Having said that, I always tell my belayer to get his hand back on the rope if they remove whilst I'm dangling in mid-air, if I'm working a route.
In reply to john stainforth:
Yes, in theory I'd agree, but in practice I see more bad belaying with a plate-type device than with a gri-gri.
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In reply to AlanLittle:
It's pretty unlikely you're ever going to need those old skills. On the other hand, dropping your assisted locking belay device half way up a multi-pitch and having to use a munter or your partner's tube device is a real possibility.
Assisted locking belay devices are great, but good habits are still a good thing to get into... everyone should learn to belay well on a tube device first IMO.
> > I think the ATC forces one to learn good habits whereas the GriGri does not.
> I used to be able to double de-clutch and cadence brake, and was pretty good at judging when to ease the choke.
> I don't think the atrophying of any of those skills has made me a less safe driver.
It's pretty unlikely you're ever going to need those old skills. On the other hand, dropping your assisted locking belay device half way up a multi-pitch and having to use a munter or your partner's tube device is a real possibility.
Assisted locking belay devices are great, but good habits are still a good thing to get into... everyone should learn to belay well on a tube device first IMO.
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In reply to GridNorth:
I don't think the problem in paying out slack quickly is a problem with belay devices and belaying technique, rather the problem lies with the mistaken belief that pulling up a load of slack to clip a bolt above your head is a good idea. Lets compare clipping at waist level and clipping above the head.
Clipping above the head
Cons:
Increased fall factor if you fall while making the clip and there is extra rope is payed out.
Increased risk of a ground fall because there is twice as much slack in the system than if you waited to clip the bolt at waist level.
Increased risk of loosing your teeth if you fall while holding the rope in your mouth. Having watched climbers in IFSC world cup I was shocked to see elite climbers doing this, does Red Bull have a dental plan?
Introduces bad habits in belaying due to the need to pay out large amounts of slack at a rate which activates the auto-locking mechanism of the belay device. These bad habits have led to accidents.
Pros:
you are effectively on top rope the whole time making it easier to dog the route.
Clipping at waist level
Cons:
you aren't on top-rope
Pros:
easier for your belayer they only have to pay out rope at the rate you are climbing.
safer for the climber as detailed above
I don't think the problem in paying out slack quickly is a problem with belay devices and belaying technique, rather the problem lies with the mistaken belief that pulling up a load of slack to clip a bolt above your head is a good idea. Lets compare clipping at waist level and clipping above the head.
Clipping above the head
Cons:
Increased fall factor if you fall while making the clip and there is extra rope is payed out.
Increased risk of a ground fall because there is twice as much slack in the system than if you waited to clip the bolt at waist level.
Increased risk of loosing your teeth if you fall while holding the rope in your mouth. Having watched climbers in IFSC world cup I was shocked to see elite climbers doing this, does Red Bull have a dental plan?
Introduces bad habits in belaying due to the need to pay out large amounts of slack at a rate which activates the auto-locking mechanism of the belay device. These bad habits have led to accidents.
Pros:
you are effectively on top rope the whole time making it easier to dog the route.
Clipping at waist level
Cons:
you aren't on top-rope
Pros:
easier for your belayer they only have to pay out rope at the rate you are climbing.
safer for the climber as detailed above
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In reply to Jon Greengrass:
The issue is more to do with the speed of pulling the rope rather than the amount of rope. The wisdom of clipping above the head is a separate issue and another widely misunderstood phenomena. You end up nearer the ground but you do NOT fall further as is often thought. You fall the same distance.
Al
The issue is more to do with the speed of pulling the rope rather than the amount of rope. The wisdom of clipping above the head is a separate issue and another widely misunderstood phenomena. You end up nearer the ground but you do NOT fall further as is often thought. You fall the same distance.
Al
5
In reply to Fraser:
Sorry if this appears tedious, perhaps I did't explain myself as well as I could have. I'm referring to the process which causes the cam to engage, pinch the rope and cause its movement to be arrested. That requires tension in the rope, meaning you have to be gripping it on the control side. You absolutely must grip the rope to hold a fall, the GriGri assisted braking, like other similar devices, doesn't work without user intervention (unless you get lucky). This is why they are not called auto-locking devices. Your hand isn't there as a back up, it makes the device function.
Once the cam has engaged, you can relax your grip because unlike a manual device, the force you can resist is not proportional to your hand force. This is the main benefit of the device for sport climbing, it's less tiring to belay someone who hangs on the rope a lot.
Sorry if this appears tedious, perhaps I did't explain myself as well as I could have. I'm referring to the process which causes the cam to engage, pinch the rope and cause its movement to be arrested. That requires tension in the rope, meaning you have to be gripping it on the control side. You absolutely must grip the rope to hold a fall, the GriGri assisted braking, like other similar devices, doesn't work without user intervention (unless you get lucky). This is why they are not called auto-locking devices. Your hand isn't there as a back up, it makes the device function.
Once the cam has engaged, you can relax your grip because unlike a manual device, the force you can resist is not proportional to your hand force. This is the main benefit of the device for sport climbing, it's less tiring to belay someone who hangs on the rope a lot.
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In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
Hmm, I must admit my personal experience 'feels' different to that explanation. It's usually the fall that generates the sudden tension in the rope between leader and device that locks it, (and I suppose some friction of the rope within the device itself) rather than my hand on the dead end of the rope. If I have slack in the dead end, the device still locks, or it has every time I've held a fall.
Maybe I've just been lucky. (or my leader has!)
Hmm, I must admit my personal experience 'feels' different to that explanation. It's usually the fall that generates the sudden tension in the rope between leader and device that locks it, (and I suppose some friction of the rope within the device itself) rather than my hand on the dead end of the rope. If I have slack in the dead end, the device still locks, or it has every time I've held a fall.
Maybe I've just been lucky. (or my leader has!)
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In reply to Jon Greengrass:
Nice pious truisms but irrelevant to the belayer's responsibility to give the climber as much rope as s/he wants, when and as fast as s/he wants it. Being judgemental about when, how or where the climber "should" decide to clip is not part of the job description.
Nice pious truisms but irrelevant to the belayer's responsibility to give the climber as much rope as s/he wants, when and as fast as s/he wants it. Being judgemental about when, how or where the climber "should" decide to clip is not part of the job description.
Post edited at 13:37
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In reply to Fraser:
Yeah, I can understand why it feels that way. Back in the day I used to do drop tests at work, rather cheekily using a GriGri to hold the fall completely unattended, and it always locked, but then the falls were fairly high fall factor. Because of the device geometry, a sudden and significant upward load usually does engage the cam, but the key point is, this isn't guaranteed. I broke an expensive test dummy finding this out the hard way....
My advice would be: by all means allow a bit of slack to encourage the cam to engage easily, but don't use this as an excuse to not hold the rope properly.
Yeah, I can understand why it feels that way. Back in the day I used to do drop tests at work, rather cheekily using a GriGri to hold the fall completely unattended, and it always locked, but then the falls were fairly high fall factor. Because of the device geometry, a sudden and significant upward load usually does engage the cam, but the key point is, this isn't guaranteed. I broke an expensive test dummy finding this out the hard way....
My advice would be: by all means allow a bit of slack to encourage the cam to engage easily, but don't use this as an excuse to not hold the rope properly.
1
In reply to Eciton:
The bottom left picure (with the death symbol!) seems a much more natural way to feed the rope out quickly than the
way shown in the video, is it really so unsafe?
The bottom left picure (with the death symbol!) seems a much more natural way to feed the rope out quickly than the
way shown in the video, is it really so unsafe?
1
In reply to tjin:
I agree, I see a lot of climbers belaying with their thumb on the cam continually and their other hand on the climbers side of the rope and not the brake side. I’ve witnessed three accidents this year all using or should that be misusing a GriGri or a Cinch.
> The issue with GriGri's is that i see half the people using belaying method marked in the manual with a death icon. Like people just letting go of the rope completely between paying out the rope, or just belay with the thumb on the cam permanently, a hand on the climber side of the rope and nothing holding the brake side of the rope.
I agree, I see a lot of climbers belaying with their thumb on the cam continually and their other hand on the climbers side of the rope and not the brake side. I’ve witnessed three accidents this year all using or should that be misusing a GriGri or a Cinch.
Post edited at 15:16
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In reply to Jim Hamilton:
I suppose the argument is that with your whole hand round the grigri you *might* be able to grip tightly enough to stop the cam engaging. With just your index finger under the lip as recommended you almost certainly can't.
I suppose the argument is that with your whole hand round the grigri you *might* be able to grip tightly enough to stop the cam engaging. With just your index finger under the lip as recommended you almost certainly can't.
1
In reply to GridNorth:
I don't get it. It's so simple. Left hand on climbers rope, right hand has dead rope passing through fingers, thumb on clutch when required. Climber falls off. Grigri is instantly pulled away from the thumb and dead rope is tight in right hand.
Simples, no?
I don't get it. It's so simple. Left hand on climbers rope, right hand has dead rope passing through fingers, thumb on clutch when required. Climber falls off. Grigri is instantly pulled away from the thumb and dead rope is tight in right hand.
Simples, no?
6
In reply to AlanLittle:
The belayers primary responsibility is the safety of the climber. When a climber learns to lead climb they should learn to clip safely which should involve pulling through as little slack as possible.
My argument is that it is the convention of bolting routes and setting indoor climbs so that it is effectively always possible to have top-rope is dangerous because of the belaying practices that result.
The belayers primary responsibility is the safety of the climber. When a climber learns to lead climb they should learn to clip safely which should involve pulling through as little slack as possible.
My argument is that it is the convention of bolting routes and setting indoor climbs so that it is effectively always possible to have top-rope is dangerous because of the belaying practices that result.
1
2
In reply to Jon Greengrass:
Obviously. And deliberately short roping them in order to teach them a lesson about better clipping practice wouldn't contribute very much to that. If they want lots of rope fast you need to be sufficiently competent & attentive to give them lots of rope fast, and save the lectures about optimal clipping habits for afterwards.
> The belayers primary responsibility is the safety of the climber.
Obviously. And deliberately short roping them in order to teach them a lesson about better clipping practice wouldn't contribute very much to that. If they want lots of rope fast you need to be sufficiently competent & attentive to give them lots of rope fast, and save the lectures about optimal clipping habits for afterwards.
Post edited at 17:02
5
1
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In reply to Jon Greengrass:
If that were true, wouldn't it always be possible to clip the next bolt with the current bolt at your waist? A lot of outdoor sport climbing involves at least getting your feet above the bolt before you can reach the next one.
> My argument is that it is the convention of bolting routes and setting indoor climbs so that it is effectively always possible to have top-rope is dangerous because of the belaying practices that result.
If that were true, wouldn't it always be possible to clip the next bolt with the current bolt at your waist? A lot of outdoor sport climbing involves at least getting your feet above the bolt before you can reach the next one.
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In reply to GridNorth:
A friend has suggested that it may have something to do with unicore ropes. I can't see why this should be so but then I can't see why a Click-Up twists any rope.
Can any one with experience with these matters (JimTitt perhaps?) offer an explanation?
Al
A friend has suggested that it may have something to do with unicore ropes. I can't see why this should be so but then I can't see why a Click-Up twists any rope.
Can any one with experience with these matters (JimTitt perhaps?) offer an explanation?
Al
Post edited at 09:48
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In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
It isn't true indoors either except at a small number of walls who have so many bolts that it becomes annoying and gets in the way of the climb (crikey, if you want to top-rope just top-rope!)
Most walls in my observation seem to have bolts about 1.5-2m apart, which unless you're insanely tall means you at least have to climb so your waist is slightly above the previous one even if clipping on full stretch.
> If that were true, wouldn't it always be possible to clip the next bolt with the current bolt at your waist? A lot of outdoor sport climbing involves at least getting your feet above the bolt before you can reach the next one.
It isn't true indoors either except at a small number of walls who have so many bolts that it becomes annoying and gets in the way of the climb (crikey, if you want to top-rope just top-rope!)
Most walls in my observation seem to have bolts about 1.5-2m apart, which unless you're insanely tall means you at least have to climb so your waist is slightly above the previous one even if clipping on full stretch.
Post edited at 09:57
In reply to GridNorth:
But then people using GriGri start to think it's idiot proof so and get complacent...
> It's not idiot proof though is it? Momentary lapse of concentration and a leader could be on the deck. I know it's happened to me. I like to be belayed with an assisted braking device indoors as it's too easy to get distracted. At least with an assisted braking device you get a second chance.
> Al
But then people using GriGri start to think it's idiot proof so and get complacent...
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In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I would agree that it is often possible to clip the next bolt above your head with the last bolt at your waist on certain indoor walls that have close spacing, but not always because it depends on the bolt spacing which is usually 1-2m indoors and at the new routers discretion outdoors.
I'm arguing that that perhaps the setting of indoor routes and the way routes are bolted outdoors should be altered to stop the placing of obvious rest and jugs that encourage climbers in the bad practice of pulling through large amounts of slack to clip above head height.
We've all seen climbers pumped out of the minds struggling to hold on while trying to pull through armfuls of slack to try and clip a bolt above their head
I would agree that it is often possible to clip the next bolt above your head with the last bolt at your waist on certain indoor walls that have close spacing, but not always because it depends on the bolt spacing which is usually 1-2m indoors and at the new routers discretion outdoors.
I'm arguing that that perhaps the setting of indoor routes and the way routes are bolted outdoors should be altered to stop the placing of obvious rest and jugs that encourage climbers in the bad practice of pulling through large amounts of slack to clip above head height.
We've all seen climbers pumped out of the minds struggling to hold on while trying to pull through armfuls of slack to try and clip a bolt above their head
1
3
In reply to GridNorth:
It's the ground I'm worried about.
> The issue is more to do with the speed of pulling the rope rather than the amount of rope. The wisdom of clipping above the head is a separate issue and another widely misunderstood phenomena. You end up nearer the ground but you do NOT fall further as is often thought. You fall the same distance.
> Al
It's the ground I'm worried about.
2
In reply to Jon Greengrass:
There is nothing wrong with clipping above your head as long as you are not too near the ground. You might be pulling in large amounts of slack but this is mitigated by the fact that you are lower to start with but for me I try to clip from a comfortable position regardless. There is a myth that by having more slack pulled out you fall further. You don't but you do end up nearer the ground.
Can we get back to the point of the post though Have people with Click-Ups experienced more rope twisting than with a GriGri or other device for that matter.
Al
There is nothing wrong with clipping above your head as long as you are not too near the ground. You might be pulling in large amounts of slack but this is mitigated by the fact that you are lower to start with but for me I try to clip from a comfortable position regardless. There is a myth that by having more slack pulled out you fall further. You don't but you do end up nearer the ground.
Can we get back to the point of the post though Have people with Click-Ups experienced more rope twisting than with a GriGri or other device for that matter.
Al
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In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
IMO complacency would result in an assisted device stopping the fall in most instances, it requires mishandling to get it to fail.
Al
> But then people using GriGri start to think it's idiot proof so and get complacent...
IMO complacency would result in an assisted device stopping the fall in most instances, it requires mishandling to get it to fail.
Al
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In reply to bouldery bits:
Idiots and non-idiots alike are capable of being distracted so for belayers of either category, an ATC type device isn't idiot-proof. Usually through no fault of their own it's not unknown for climbers to be struck by falling rock while belaying and rendered either unconscious or otherwise ineffective. In such instances an ATC devices wouldn't arrest the flight of a plummeting leader no matter how unidiotic the belayer.
Idiots and non-idiots alike are capable of being distracted so for belayers of either category, an ATC type device isn't idiot-proof. Usually through no fault of their own it's not unknown for climbers to be struck by falling rock while belaying and rendered either unconscious or otherwise ineffective. In such instances an ATC devices wouldn't arrest the flight of a plummeting leader no matter how unidiotic the belayer.
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In reply to GridNorth:
I've been using the alpine up a long time, and I've never noticed a problem
> Can we get back to the point of the post though Have people with Click-Ups experienced more rope twisting than with a GriGri or other device for that matter.
I've been using the alpine up a long time, and I've never noticed a problem
In reply to GridNorth:
Indeed. Although that's what happened to a very experienced climbing friend of mine who did the 'panic grab' with a Grigri and dropped his climber.
> IMO complacency would result in an assisted device stopping the fall in most instances, it requires mishandling to get it to fail.
> Al
Indeed. Although that's what happened to a very experienced climbing friend of mine who did the 'panic grab' with a Grigri and dropped his climber.
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In reply to Anotherclimber:
But the Grigri is not intended to be used in that way either. As pointed out above it is intended to reduce fatigue.
ATCs are not idiot proof but are very simple. Since I switched to one with the 'teeth' I find it effortless to use too.
> Idiots and non-idiots alike are capable of being distracted so for belayers of either category, an ATC type device isn't idiot-proof. Usually through no fault of their own it's not unknown for climbers to be struck by falling rock while belaying and rendered either unconscious or otherwise ineffective. In such instances an ATC devices wouldn't arrest the flight of a plummeting leader no matter how unidiotic the belayer.
But the Grigri is not intended to be used in that way either. As pointed out above it is intended to reduce fatigue.
ATCs are not idiot proof but are very simple. Since I switched to one with the 'teeth' I find it effortless to use too.
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In reply to GridNorth:
I always found that if you grab the whole device to thumb the cam the rope is too tight to feed out properly, I wonder if that's why people dropped the rope?
Petzl did issue this poster about the same time as the BMC notice that's been deleted but you might not recognise it if you weren't using a grigri at the time. It was up at a few walls though.
https://www.climbing.com/.image/t_share/MTM1MjQ4Mzk5MDg2NzU0Mjcw/petzl-grig...
I always found that if you grab the whole device to thumb the cam the rope is too tight to feed out properly, I wonder if that's why people dropped the rope?
Petzl did issue this poster about the same time as the BMC notice that's been deleted but you might not recognise it if you weren't using a grigri at the time. It was up at a few walls though.
https://www.climbing.com/.image/t_share/MTM1MjQ4Mzk5MDg2NzU0Mjcw/petzl-grig...
In reply to GridNorth:
The original point of the post was about the BMC advice on pulling slack compared with the recommendation from Petzl. The twisting we discussed on a different thread
> Can we get back to the point of the post though Have people with Click-Ups experienced more rope twisting than with a GriGri or other device for that matter.
> Al
The original point of the post was about the BMC advice on pulling slack compared with the recommendation from Petzl. The twisting we discussed on a different thread
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