UKC

I was looking to spend some money for some better upper body clothing for Scottish Winter, I'm not quite satisfied with what I've got. I've had a few ideas but I'm having trouble deciding between them, especially with only a finite amount of money (max 250 quid).

Currently I own a few decent baselayers, a Rab VR Jacket (which I love), and a lightweight Rab Climbing Hardshell (I think it's an elderly Down-Pour one), which is only really suited for the summer.

Current ideas (going on kit that people seem to rate highly).
* Paramo Velez + existing Rab VR Jkt + baselayer (only Velez to be bought ~ 150 quid)
* Paramo Velez + Rab Phantom Jkt + baselayer (superdooper option, though need to purchase both ~ 250 quid)

going the Pertex + Pile way:
* Montane Extreme Smock + Belay Jacket for when I stop, prob. Montane Toasty (~ 150 quid together)

other things springing to mind
Patagonia Winter Guide Jacket, Rab Baltoro Guide (instead of the Velez).

Any comments, suggestions etc. would be *hugely* appreciated. Cheers,
Rich

In reply to perfectlynormalbeast:

What's wrong with what you've got? I'm usually OK in winter with merino baslayer, microfleece, and shell. If it's VERY cold I'll wear a Mountain Equipement microtherm jacket as the midlayer (similar to the Rab VR)

In reply to Caralynr:
Partly the existing shell doesn't really work well for Winter. It's a bit of a short cut, and it doesn't breathe very well (I end up pretty darned sweaty). What it does it does well, it's great for whipping on when it starts pouring down in summer, with a hood sized for a helmet etc.

Also I wasn't sure how well the VR would work underneath another jacket. But if it's fine, that's great. Cheers, that's really helpful, it's just good to know what other people find works.

Maybe a new shell (i.e. the Veloz), and just wearing the (microfleece/VR) and baselayer is the way to go.

Thanks

In reply to Caralynr: Yep sounds ok to me too.

I use a HH Pro wool base layer although anything wicking will normally do. Then either a buffalo or Rab VR. Final layer a £100 Decathlon waterproof. Always seem to get about the right temp through taking off layers as required.

Make sure you get decent gloves though. Nothing worse than cold hands!

I have a thin pair of inner gloves for tying knots etc. and a pair of Dachstein Mitts which are awesome!

In reply to perfectlynormalbeast:
Here's what I usually wear in winter:
Baselayer
Microfleece
Sleeveless thick fleece if it's very cold--if not, it stays in the pack
Paclite jacket
Fleece trousers
Lightweight waterproof trousers

Plus the usual gaiters, mittens, Powerstretch balaclava if it's really bad, etc.

In reply to perfectlynormalbeast:
One comment - if you go for the Velez and are buying off the internet, make sure it's the version with the fixed hood, the removable one is pretty crap IMHO.

In reply to perfectlynormalbeast: Could you not go for a couple of baselayers + VR jacket for walk-in then add your existing hardshell only if you need it when climbing?

Or perhaps a synthetic gilet over the top of the VR when climbing to keep you a bit warmer?

In reply to Alex Roddie:

You must boil.

After many years of experiementation, I have found the system that works for me in Scottish winter conditions.

2 baselayers + windproof. This is comfortable down to well below 0 if you are moving.

Primaloft jacket. Good to chuck on during stops or if it gets really cold, but lives mostly in my sack.

Shell. In my case a cheap and lightweight jacket (Patagonia Rainshadow), which lives mostly in my sack.

With something like Baselayer + Rab VR/microfleece + Paramo Veloz, is it likely to be warm enough at stops, or would a belay jacket be a plan? I guess this'd be highly dependent on the person and conditions etc.

Cheers for all this everyone, it's all really helpful.

Rich

In reply to perfectlynormalbeast: I would have thought you would be too warm with the VR and Paramo when moving.

Something warm to throw over the top can be very useful for stops/belaying.

In reply to MJH: I've used the VR Climb jacket as my outer layer for about 2 years now, the waterproof only comes out if it's actually pissing down.

The only time recently that I've used my waterproof (montane superfly event) was when the freezing level was 900m and it was raining reasonably heavily for the first hour of the walk in. I have not tried paramo stuff, but I don't think there is a system that will keep you dry in those conditions. (as it's the sweat that soaks you, not the rain!)

The only way to be comfortable all day is to change your base layer and fleece for nice dry ones when you get to the snowline/freezing level. (which I didn't do as I didn't have a spare)

By the end of the day my baselayer was dryish, microfleece was dryish, rab VR climb jacket was dry on the inside, soaking on the outside and my montane was soaking inside and out!

Does paramo keep you dryish and warm in rainy 0 to +2 degrees walk-ins?

I don't think there is a waterproof out there that is breathable enough to cope with the amount you sweat when walking fast in those kind of conditions.

In reply to MJH: I find it better to have a system where I don't need to change layers at belays. Walk in in a baselayer (+ windproof/waterptoof if colder).

On the route I opt for baselayer + Rab VR or buffalo. I find I can regulate the temperature just fine with these two layers. If is absolutely baltic and windy as hell I just add the waterproof layer and a balaclava. No point in taking layers up just to keep toasty at belays.

You are meant to suffer in winter ....otherwise your just not trying hard enough!

In reply to Alasdair Fulton: No idea about paramo as I use a similar system to you - either montane extreme or base layer+windproof.

I agree with you totally that no waterproof is breathable enough.

In reply to Frodo: You obviously haven't been anywhere cold enough!

I normally walk in wearing a base layer or montane if it is colder. Climb in Montane but sometimes when not moving especially if exposed to the wind you need something extra so a light synthetic layer to fling over the top is invaluable.

In reply to MJH: I always think discussins like this are amusing, because everyone argues that their system is "the best", but not many people describe what type of climbing they are doing, which is probably more important than anything else.

If it's sub zero and you're climbing stuff near your limit (whatever that is) you're going to be at belays for quite a while. Some folk cope without belay jackets, I don't! I often chuck on my montane bivvy at belays.

I've justt ordered a warmer microfleece so that maybe I don't need to use the belay jacket so often, but we'll see!

In reply to MJH: I find that even in extreme conditions my three layer system will keep me warm enough. Sometimes on a belay ledge its not feasible to actually get your pack off and put on another layer, especially if your protection is marginal.

I think a layering system is subjective and will differ from person to person. Probably the best thing to do is to try out different combinations and see what works best for you. I wouldn't advise getting expensive gear until you've a good idea what works best for you however.

In reply to The New NickB:

Not when I'm on belay in a gully with spindrift pouring down my neck and -20 degrees of windchill! I hate the faff of trying to get out a belay jacket or whatever when you're halfway up a climb. Would far rather be warm enough on the climb, even if I'm a little warmer on the walk in.

Most of the time for Scottish winter a baselayer, microfleece and Paclite jacket do me fine, but in milder conditions only just below freezing I will quite regularly strip down to the baselayer and the Paclite jacket.

I think the most difficult conditions are -2c to +2c, especially when it's windy.

Below this you don't need waterproofs as everything is frozen, above this your not going to be climbing anyway, but in between is a nighmare!

In reply to Alex Roddie: Do you not find you get damp on the walk in which keeps you cold all day?

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
you don;t need to wear all your clothes during the walkin. I use a similar system but only wear a baselayer or baselayer + fleece (as well as trousers obv) normally for the walk in,

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
Not really--since I've been using this system it's usually been bloody cold, so I usually end up just comfortable on the walk in. =)

I often just wear a baselayer and waterproof on the walk in, then add a fleece before starting the climb however.

In reply to CurlyStevo: On walk-ins I either have just baselayer if it's dry and warmer than -2 and not too windy.

If it's windy and or colder I'll have a microfleece on too. The VR climb jacket gets chucked on top when I'm gearing up.

If it's wet I'll either wear BL&MF&Waterproof or just BL&WP.

If you're not bloody freezing at the start of the walk-in you're wearing too much!

In reply to perfectlynormalbeast: So did you get all that ....or are you now even more confused!!

Just to throw another thing into the mix, I've got the patagonia guide pants and they are great. Tough, stretchy, water resistant and breathable, the jacket may be the same?

(your waterproof would be fine for the worst weather)


For all you who use buffalo/montane extreme etc. how well does it last when you're thrutching up granite chimneys and other general winter abuse?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I think Alex's point is that he does. Maybe it does work for him, I would find it unbearable and would be pissed wet through from sweat and dehydrated by the time I got to the bottom of the climb.

In reply to perfectlynormalbeast:

I'm using a FjallRaven Gutulia polycotton shell (similar in principle to the Paramo stuff). Haven't used it in really crap weather yet but it's wind and snow proof and exponentially more breathable than any goretex I've ever owned.

C

In reply to The New NickB: He did say he's only been out in cold weather though. Maybe he walks really slow too

In reply to perfectlynormalbeast:

I have the VR jacket and have found it to work well under a hardshell for the kind of -2-+2 range. Personally I would either keep the existing system for the first few outings or just replace the shell if you are looking for an excuse for a new one.

In reply to Frodo:

It's been pretty useful actually, despite the huge amount of personal preference that goes into all of this.

What I have taken out of it, is that I can probably suffice with what I have. I'm out in the Cairngorms next week for a few days so I'm planning on trying what I have already, Couple of Baselayers + Rab VR Jacket + Shell when needed.

I should be able to borrow a Buffalo too, so I can try that out for a day. Then hopefully I'll have a lot better idea of what I want.

Cheers everyone,
Rich

In reply to davidwright:

Great. I think I'm going to do exactly what you've said. Try using what I have for a few days out in the cold. Maybe after that I'll replace the shell.

Rich