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what and how much of what need i pack in my winter rucsac.
what size of daysac do i need for a day on the hill?
please reply, winter first timer needs to know he's prepared :S
what size of daysac do i need for a day on the hill?
please reply, winter first timer needs to know he's prepared :S
In reply to belfast_phil:
You will get answers stating that you need a 45 or 50 litre sack. Ignore them, you can get everything you need in a 30 litre sack.
Assuming that you are wearing most of your warm clothing, I would be carrying the following on the walk-in, though may be wearing some depending on weather:
Full waterproofs
hat/balaclava
gloves inner and outer
helmet
spare thermal vest to change into before route
rope
harness
half the rack
camera
flask
food
All that lot definitely fits into a 30 litre sack.
HTH
Bob
You will get answers stating that you need a 45 or 50 litre sack. Ignore them, you can get everything you need in a 30 litre sack.
Assuming that you are wearing most of your warm clothing, I would be carrying the following on the walk-in, though may be wearing some depending on weather:
Full waterproofs
hat/balaclava
gloves inner and outer
helmet
spare thermal vest to change into before route
rope
harness
half the rack
camera
flask
food
All that lot definitely fits into a 30 litre sack.
HTH
Bob
In reply to belfast_phil: and suppose you had to stay for a week, in accomodation, but regardless, would youa dd anything?
In reply to belfast_phil:
I'm assuming that you are replying to me and not yourself
Don't get one big sack because you need to carry stuff to a B&B, YHA or whatever. One of those sports holdalls would be fine for your off the hill kit. Keep your hill sack small and light. In addition to the first list, sleeping bag, bivvy bag, stove, fuel and food for a three day alpine route will also fit in the same 30L sack.
Bob
I'm assuming that you are replying to me and not yourself
Don't get one big sack because you need to carry stuff to a B&B, YHA or whatever. One of those sports holdalls would be fine for your off the hill kit. Keep your hill sack small and light. In addition to the first list, sleeping bag, bivvy bag, stove, fuel and food for a three day alpine route will also fit in the same 30L sack.
Bob
In reply to bobw:
and a headtorch, for those days which just aren't quite long enough. A wee Petzl one won't take up a lot of space in Bob's 30l sack.
and a headtorch, for those days which just aren't quite long enough. A wee Petzl one won't take up a lot of space in Bob's 30l sack.
In reply to belfast_phil: Winter climbing
Bag: Arc'terxy Khamsin 30
In bag:
Rack
Gore Shell (wearing a soft shell)
Duvet belay jacket
Food
Platypus
Survival bags, one foil and one plastic
First aid kit
Spare laces
Out outside
Rope (under lid)
Crampons (in bag on back)
Tools (on back, covered by crampons)
Bag: Arc'terxy Khamsin 30
In bag:
Rack
Gore Shell (wearing a soft shell)
Duvet belay jacket
Food
Platypus
Survival bags, one foil and one plastic
First aid kit
Spare laces
Out outside
Rope (under lid)
Crampons (in bag on back)
Tools (on back, covered by crampons)
In reply to hindu: forgot my pockets...
Black Diamond gemini head torch
snickets bars
camera
Map,compass and gps
Black Diamond gemini head torch
snickets bars
camera
Map,compass and gps
In reply to hindu:
EEE when I were a lad, there were no GPS Personally I wouldn't bother with a duvet, but then again I have my own personal blubber layer!
Check out http://www.pattinson.demon.co.uk/climb/alp-gear.htm for a discussion on what to pack for alpine routes, which ain't too different in volume from that for Scottish winter.
Bob
EEE when I were a lad, there were no GPS Personally I wouldn't bother with a duvet, but then again I have my own personal blubber layer!
Check out http://www.pattinson.demon.co.uk/climb/alp-gear.htm for a discussion on what to pack for alpine routes, which ain't too different in volume from that for Scottish winter.
Bob
In reply to belfast_phil: Less (but obviously enough) is always better if you have to carry it!!
In reply to bobw:
Just out of interest, why should you not use a 50 litre sack? I used to have a 35 litre sack and I used to have a hard time fitting everything in, and when I did it was very uncomfortable to carry. When I got a 50 I still carried the same amount but it felt like half the weight. It interfered in no way with the climbing (because it packs down small) and being able to shove everything back in quickly when you top out saves a lot of time.
I'm curious why such a lot of people are so keen on small rucksacks. Have you had bad experiences with large ones?
Just out of interest, why should you not use a 50 litre sack? I used to have a 35 litre sack and I used to have a hard time fitting everything in, and when I did it was very uncomfortable to carry. When I got a 50 I still carried the same amount but it felt like half the weight. It interfered in no way with the climbing (because it packs down small) and being able to shove everything back in quickly when you top out saves a lot of time.
I'm curious why such a lot of people are so keen on small rucksacks. Have you had bad experiences with large ones?
In reply to bobw:
I would reccomend taking the following gear as well
Bivvy Bag
Torch
Map
Compass
First Aid kit
Water Bottle
Plus any other assorted goodies that will make your day go smoother and make you more comfortable. I personally would take a larger pack
I would reccomend taking the following gear as well
Bivvy Bag
Torch
Map
Compass
First Aid kit
Water Bottle
Plus any other assorted goodies that will make your day go smoother and make you more comfortable. I personally would take a larger pack
In reply to belfast_phil:
Half the rack
Plastic bivvy bag
Gloves(2 pairs)
Spare fleece
Map
Compass
lots of chocolate
Flask
Water
Tobacco+3 packs of rizlas(you never know whats gonna happen, and one of 'em normally gets wet).
Obviously crampons, axes, helmet all on top or outside.
Thats about it. I don't carry much.
Half the rack
Plastic bivvy bag
Gloves(2 pairs)
Spare fleece
Map
Compass
lots of chocolate
Flask
Water
Tobacco+3 packs of rizlas(you never know whats gonna happen, and one of 'em normally gets wet).
Obviously crampons, axes, helmet all on top or outside.
Thats about it. I don't carry much.
In reply to wcdave: oh aye, and a headtorch.
In reply to Mark:
Check out the link I gave above which relates a true tale. I just do not see the need for a 50L sack when I can get everything I need into a 35L one. If you are climbing with the sack then it is likely that you have carried the rack etc inside so you have to compress the sack down, obviously a small sack is going to be smaller than a large one.
The main thing is that a small (30-35 litres) sack forces you to think about what you are going to take rather than "oh just shove it in, there's room". If I am packing for an alpine route, every piece of kit has to justify it being carried so I try to have kit serve two purposes: glacier loops are used for slings on route and so on. With a bit of forethought you can quite safely leave a lot of stuff in the campsite. The upside is that you are carrying less, can move quicker, everything is just more enjoyable. The downside? A bivvy may not be as comfortable as you would wish. But then you are out to climb a route not have a comfy night.
Bob
Check out the link I gave above which relates a true tale. I just do not see the need for a 50L sack when I can get everything I need into a 35L one. If you are climbing with the sack then it is likely that you have carried the rack etc inside so you have to compress the sack down, obviously a small sack is going to be smaller than a large one.
The main thing is that a small (30-35 litres) sack forces you to think about what you are going to take rather than "oh just shove it in, there's room". If I am packing for an alpine route, every piece of kit has to justify it being carried so I try to have kit serve two purposes: glacier loops are used for slings on route and so on. With a bit of forethought you can quite safely leave a lot of stuff in the campsite. The upside is that you are carrying less, can move quicker, everything is just more enjoyable. The downside? A bivvy may not be as comfortable as you would wish. But then you are out to climb a route not have a comfy night.
Bob
In reply to bobw:
Ok, I see the point you're making, but I always find that weight alone is enough of an incentive to pack light and a half empty sack is much more comfortable to carry than a small one thats bursting full (and it's much easier to pack at the top of a route).
Another point is that Scottish mixed climbing often requires carrying a lot more gear than alpine routes because you tend to operate closer to your technical limmit so very often a rucksack small enough for the alps won't be big enough for Scotland.
You can always pack a little in a large sack, but you can't a lot in a little one.
Ok, I see the point you're making, but I always find that weight alone is enough of an incentive to pack light and a half empty sack is much more comfortable to carry than a small one thats bursting full (and it's much easier to pack at the top of a route).
Another point is that Scottish mixed climbing often requires carrying a lot more gear than alpine routes because you tend to operate closer to your technical limmit so very often a rucksack small enough for the alps won't be big enough for Scotland.
You can always pack a little in a large sack, but you can't a lot in a little one.
In reply to Mark:
Never had a problem that way myself, I never had the 30 litre sack full on the hill in Scotland in winter. Yes you do tend to have a larger rack for Scottish mixed routes but this is counterbalanced by the carrying of bivvy gear, stove and food on alpine routes. Anyway you will only be carrying half the rack, your mate will be carrying the other half. Unless of course you are one of those teams where you both take your full rack with you on the hill.
Bob
Never had a problem that way myself, I never had the 30 litre sack full on the hill in Scotland in winter. Yes you do tend to have a larger rack for Scottish mixed routes but this is counterbalanced by the carrying of bivvy gear, stove and food on alpine routes. Anyway you will only be carrying half the rack, your mate will be carrying the other half. Unless of course you are one of those teams where you both take your full rack with you on the hill.
Bob
In reply to bobw:
Don't joke about it, the other week we arrived at the foot of the crag to find out we had 3 ropes between us! breakdown in communications somewhere.
Oops, I just seem to have proved your point.
>
>
>Unless of course you are one of those teams where you both take your full rack with you on the hill.
>
Don't joke about it, the other week we arrived at the foot of the crag to find out we had 3 ropes between us! breakdown in communications somewhere.
Oops, I just seem to have proved your point.
In reply to Mark:
At least it wasn't the other way round. We turned up to attempt a winter girdle of Lliwedd to find that wee had one rope between us! Unfortunately I can't blame my mate
Bob
At least it wasn't the other way round. We turned up to attempt a winter girdle of Lliwedd to find that wee had one rope between us! Unfortunately I can't blame my mate
Bob
In reply to bobw:
Most 30-35 litre sacks don't have much of a back system/hip belt system. The daysacks I've got certainly don't.
I find a 50 litre sack with the compression straps pulled in tight much more comfortable than a 30 litre: mine has a good back system and hip belt, plus chect strap. In compressed mode it holds my load much closer to my back than would a full 30 litre bag, and seems a lot more stable.
An added advantage is that when going away for a week I don't have to worry about a holdall...everything goes in the sack with the staps let out, and I can carry it through rail/tube stations/ interchanges more easily than I could carry a holdall...just dump the non-hill stuff at my "base camp", cinch up the straps and I'm ready to go.
Most 30-35 litre sacks don't have much of a back system/hip belt system. The daysacks I've got certainly don't.
I find a 50 litre sack with the compression straps pulled in tight much more comfortable than a 30 litre: mine has a good back system and hip belt, plus chect strap. In compressed mode it holds my load much closer to my back than would a full 30 litre bag, and seems a lot more stable.
An added advantage is that when going away for a week I don't have to worry about a holdall...everything goes in the sack with the staps let out, and I can carry it through rail/tube stations/ interchanges more easily than I could carry a holdall...just dump the non-hill stuff at my "base camp", cinch up the straps and I'm ready to go.
In reply to belfast_phil:
In addition to what others have suggested, in winter I always carry a spare hat and a spare pair of socks.
I've never lost my own hat, but twice now I've had to lend my spare to others in the party who's hats've been blown off/ dropped from a height.
The socks can be used on the feet, or double up as spare mittens if gloves are lost (again, that's happened to mates but never, touch wood, so far, to me).
Also, I don't like the thin silvery survival blankets...don't think they do much good. I used to carry the standard orange jobbies, but now tend to take a group shelter along instead. A four-person GS is about the same weight and bulk as a one-person plastic bag, and much more versatile/comfortable. Great for getting out of the wind/ weather for normal break stops, as well as for emergency use.
In addition to what others have suggested, in winter I always carry a spare hat and a spare pair of socks.
I've never lost my own hat, but twice now I've had to lend my spare to others in the party who's hats've been blown off/ dropped from a height.
The socks can be used on the feet, or double up as spare mittens if gloves are lost (again, that's happened to mates but never, touch wood, so far, to me).
Also, I don't like the thin silvery survival blankets...don't think they do much good. I used to carry the standard orange jobbies, but now tend to take a group shelter along instead. A four-person GS is about the same weight and bulk as a one-person plastic bag, and much more versatile/comfortable. Great for getting out of the wind/ weather for normal break stops, as well as for emergency use.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
So? They add weight and complication, a simple hip belt is all that is needed. Also the back "systems" are total overkill for climbing sacks. What you need is a sack that has a sleeve for karrimat or similar down the back. You can get two or three sections in there: nice and soft against your back and you do not need to carry a rolled up sleeping mat as the sections are enough to sleep on.
Like I said, you have to think about what you need to take and what you can get away with not what you would like to have.
If I was to go away for a week using public transport (and to my shame I admit that I haven't done this for a long time) then I would either have a VERY large sack into which I would put my hill sack along with everything else I need, or use a holdall and my small sack.
Bob
So? They add weight and complication, a simple hip belt is all that is needed. Also the back "systems" are total overkill for climbing sacks. What you need is a sack that has a sleeve for karrimat or similar down the back. You can get two or three sections in there: nice and soft against your back and you do not need to carry a rolled up sleeping mat as the sections are enough to sleep on.
Like I said, you have to think about what you need to take and what you can get away with not what you would like to have.
If I was to go away for a week using public transport (and to my shame I admit that I haven't done this for a long time) then I would either have a VERY large sack into which I would put my hill sack along with everything else I need, or use a holdall and my small sack.
Bob
In reply to Bob:
Really not a fan of holdalls, or at least not for trips by public transport. Yes, they're easy to pack, but they're a pain in the proverbials to carry - something that becomes painfully apparent when carrying it to the station, even more so when dragging it through three changes of train, and very, very apparent when humping it the four miles between the bus stop and the campsite at midnight. They do come with shoulder straps, but these provide a level of comfort on a par with barbed wire soaked in vinegar. Large rucksacks look naff, but at least they were *designed* to be carried.
Really not a fan of holdalls, or at least not for trips by public transport. Yes, they're easy to pack, but they're a pain in the proverbials to carry - something that becomes painfully apparent when carrying it to the station, even more so when dragging it through three changes of train, and very, very apparent when humping it the four miles between the bus stop and the campsite at midnight. They do come with shoulder straps, but these provide a level of comfort on a par with barbed wire soaked in vinegar. Large rucksacks look naff, but at least they were *designed* to be carried.
In reply to Bob:
I don't really understand why you're so anti carrying the same amount of stuff in a cinched-down 50 litre sack as in a stuffed-full 35 litre.
I disagree that a decent back-system is irrelevant for winter climbing. Most winter climbs involve long walk-ins/outs and/or "alpine-style" movement on steep ground, where sack stability can matter quite a lot. In those circumstances I'd rather have a cinched-down 50 litre sack, with the gear carried close to my back, stabilised on my chest and with the load directed down through padded hips than an over-stuffed 30-35 litre sack with only a thin hip belt and no other load-adjustment possibilities.
Also, as I load and unload the bigger sack for climbing, walking or scrambling on steep ground, I can adjust the compression to keep the load stable and "tight in", no matter how much/little of it I'm wearing/using. Most 30-35 litre sacks won't allow you to do this.
And for moving around on public transport, I don't see why I should burden myself with an additional holdall, or fiddle about putting a smaller sack inside a bigger one when I can use the same sack for moving all my kit and for going on the hill, just by letting out or cinching down the compression straps.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, and let the original poster make up his own mind.
I don't really understand why you're so anti carrying the same amount of stuff in a cinched-down 50 litre sack as in a stuffed-full 35 litre.
I disagree that a decent back-system is irrelevant for winter climbing. Most winter climbs involve long walk-ins/outs and/or "alpine-style" movement on steep ground, where sack stability can matter quite a lot. In those circumstances I'd rather have a cinched-down 50 litre sack, with the gear carried close to my back, stabilised on my chest and with the load directed down through padded hips than an over-stuffed 30-35 litre sack with only a thin hip belt and no other load-adjustment possibilities.
Also, as I load and unload the bigger sack for climbing, walking or scrambling on steep ground, I can adjust the compression to keep the load stable and "tight in", no matter how much/little of it I'm wearing/using. Most 30-35 litre sacks won't allow you to do this.
And for moving around on public transport, I don't see why I should burden myself with an additional holdall, or fiddle about putting a smaller sack inside a bigger one when I can use the same sack for moving all my kit and for going on the hill, just by letting out or cinching down the compression straps.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, and let the original poster make up his own mind.
In reply to bobw: sorry bob, but i wouldn't get that lot to fit in a 30 litre sac, inless i looked like a tinker with 1/2 of it hanging off the outside. come on bob, come clean - yr really only 4'3" and everything you own is in kiddies sizes?? am i right? especially yir sac!! 55 litres for us big boys.
keep up the good work
keep up the good work
In reply to belfast_phil:
see, im confused. Going through Bobs list of kit for a scottish winter climb, I find i carry the same. (though i dont bother with a flask, and also I tend not to wear most of my warm clothing on a walk in so that goes in the bag.) I have a 42 litre sack and it gets very full - tools go on the outside, and rope just about crams under the lid. How the hell do you fit that stuff into a 30 - 35 l sack, i certainly cant do it (ive tried), and nor can anyone else I know - whats the secret? am genuinly interested if theres something im missing as I consider i'm reasonably good at packing.
cheers
D
see, im confused. Going through Bobs list of kit for a scottish winter climb, I find i carry the same. (though i dont bother with a flask, and also I tend not to wear most of my warm clothing on a walk in so that goes in the bag.) I have a 42 litre sack and it gets very full - tools go on the outside, and rope just about crams under the lid. How the hell do you fit that stuff into a 30 - 35 l sack, i certainly cant do it (ive tried), and nor can anyone else I know - whats the secret? am genuinly interested if theres something im missing as I consider i'm reasonably good at packing.
cheers
D
In reply to belfast_phil:
Has anyone notice just how few 40-45 litre climbing sacs there are on the market?
Off hand I can only name 2; ME Solitude & Karrimor Alpiniste 45. I'm sure that there are others, but what are they?
Has anyone notice just how few 40-45 litre climbing sacs there are on the market?
Off hand I can only name 2; ME Solitude & Karrimor Alpiniste 45. I'm sure that there are others, but what are they?
In reply to Anonymous:
Nope, 6' and 14 stone. Genuinely, I can get everything I need for a Scottish winter or summer into a 30L sack. For the record it is a Murray Hamilton Cuillin 2 or 3 (can't remember as it is at home.
Bob
Nope, 6' and 14 stone. Genuinely, I can get everything I need for a Scottish winter or summer into a 30L sack. For the record it is a Murray Hamilton Cuillin 2 or 3 (can't remember as it is at home.
Bob
In reply to Rob Naylor:
My 30L sack has compression straps but it is a bit of age so maybe the newer ones don't have them. Fair enough about your comments on holdalls.
My points against large climbing sacks are really that they encourage you to put in more kit than you really need. I don't know about you but my knees appreciate not having to carry large loads! Having a small sack forces you to think about what you are putting in it.
I have even gone for a day's rock climbing with a 15L sack ( a Lowe Guide) with everything inside! With everything defined as: rope, my share of the rack, waterproof, rock shoes, chalk bag, harness, water bottle, some food. I still have the sack and to be honest I think I would struggle to do it again, maybe the rack has got bigger I used the same sack in an attempt on the South Face of the Fou.
The point I'm trying to get across is that 30L is still a big sack for climbing. Note that I do have a 55L sack but have not used it for over 10 years.
Bob
My 30L sack has compression straps but it is a bit of age so maybe the newer ones don't have them. Fair enough about your comments on holdalls.
My points against large climbing sacks are really that they encourage you to put in more kit than you really need. I don't know about you but my knees appreciate not having to carry large loads! Having a small sack forces you to think about what you are putting in it.
I have even gone for a day's rock climbing with a 15L sack ( a Lowe Guide) with everything inside! With everything defined as: rope, my share of the rack, waterproof, rock shoes, chalk bag, harness, water bottle, some food. I still have the sack and to be honest I think I would struggle to do it again, maybe the rack has got bigger I used the same sack in an attempt on the South Face of the Fou.
The point I'm trying to get across is that 30L is still a big sack for climbing. Note that I do have a 55L sack but have not used it for over 10 years.
Bob
In reply to Bob: I'm with you on this one. 30L is ample for winter, in fact I could get all my stuff in a smaller sac quite easily. Just a case of dropping the stuff that generally goes mouldy in the bottom through lack of use. I don't take spare stuff, as I have no intention of using it.
In reply to belfast_phil: rope, rack, helmet, harness, axes, survival bag, headtorch, bog roll, first aid kit, spare balaclava, Buffalo belay jacket, spare gloves, flask, (one of each) butties/pies/cake (as many as you need)...50 litre sac. I'm sure I left summat out. Good luck
In reply to Bob:
I don't think the amount of space I've got in a sack affects how much I want/need to take on any particular expedition. I take the minimum I think I'll need, no matter what the size if sack I have available, so why not be comfortable?
I'm not going to not take, say, a spare hat just because I have a small sack. In 5 years the fact that I had a spare hat has saved 2 mates from potentially serious loss of heat/ freezing of ear problems, one of them in minus 20 conditions.
I don't think the amount of space I've got in a sack affects how much I want/need to take on any particular expedition. I take the minimum I think I'll need, no matter what the size if sack I have available, so why not be comfortable?
I'm not going to not take, say, a spare hat just because I have a small sack. In 5 years the fact that I had a spare hat has saved 2 mates from potentially serious loss of heat/ freezing of ear problems, one of them in minus 20 conditions.
In reply to wcdave:
I have no "intention" of using it either, but I do take a limited amount of spare stuff, all of which has been used at various times. I'll always have a spare hat, some spare socks (doubling as mittens in case someone loses a glove) and spare headtorch battery/bulb.
On one trip recently 2 separate teams of mates were very late off the hill, and in some level of danger, either because only one of the pair had bothered with a headtorch ("no intention of getting off in the dark") or because the battery went flat. I agree that in general the more you take, the slower you're likely to go and the greater the possibility of having to use "emergency" gear, but for me those 3 items always go with me in winter and collectively weigh around 300gm.
I have no "intention" of using it either, but I do take a limited amount of spare stuff, all of which has been used at various times. I'll always have a spare hat, some spare socks (doubling as mittens in case someone loses a glove) and spare headtorch battery/bulb.
On one trip recently 2 separate teams of mates were very late off the hill, and in some level of danger, either because only one of the pair had bothered with a headtorch ("no intention of getting off in the dark") or because the battery went flat. I agree that in general the more you take, the slower you're likely to go and the greater the possibility of having to use "emergency" gear, but for me those 3 items always go with me in winter and collectively weigh around 300gm.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Agreed that you need some margin of safety (using socks as spare mitts is also one of my favourite doubling up tricks) but does a pair of socks, a Tikka headtorch (and spare batteries) and a hat take up 20L of space?
The point is that having a large sack encourages you to take more kit. Since this discussion appears to be going round in circles with neither side convincing the other, how about a compromise? Have both a 30L and a 45 or 50 litre sack; pack everything into the 30L to make sure that you aren't carrying too much then empty it into the larger sack without adding anything extra.
That way you get all the "benefits" of the larger sack without carrying any extra gear.
Bob
Agreed that you need some margin of safety (using socks as spare mitts is also one of my favourite doubling up tricks) but does a pair of socks, a Tikka headtorch (and spare batteries) and a hat take up 20L of space?
The point is that having a large sack encourages you to take more kit. Since this discussion appears to be going round in circles with neither side convincing the other, how about a compromise? Have both a 30L and a 45 or 50 litre sack; pack everything into the 30L to make sure that you aren't carrying too much then empty it into the larger sack without adding anything extra.
That way you get all the "benefits" of the larger sack without carrying any extra gear.
Bob
In reply to Bob:
We must just have different mentalities. If I need X, Y and Z on a trip, I'll take them. If I can do without Z I'll leave it, regardless of how much room I've got available to stow stuff.
Yes...If you have the kind of mentality that sees a load grow and grow just because there's space to stow it, by all means adopt your method. I just don't think I need to...I have no little voice in the back of my head encouraging me to take "just one more warm fleece, there's plenty room".
In any event, it's weight rather than volume that bugs me... a 30 litre sack full of lead would be a hell of a lot worse to carry that a 55 litre sack full of uncompressed down .
We must just have different mentalities. If I need X, Y and Z on a trip, I'll take them. If I can do without Z I'll leave it, regardless of how much room I've got available to stow stuff.
Yes...If you have the kind of mentality that sees a load grow and grow just because there's space to stow it, by all means adopt your method. I just don't think I need to...I have no little voice in the back of my head encouraging me to take "just one more warm fleece, there's plenty room".
In any event, it's weight rather than volume that bugs me... a 30 litre sack full of lead would be a hell of a lot worse to carry that a 55 litre sack full of uncompressed down .
In reply to Bob: I can do an ice climbing day with a 35 ltr sack (rack: 6 screws, 1 set of nuts, a few pitons etc), but for mixed routes which are hard for me I always take more gear - friends, hexes etc. In that case a 40-50 ltr sack is great. You often leave it at the bottom anyway. Having a bit of a bigger sack is better when you want to throw everything in it quickly as well at the top. My little pack is a pain to pack as you have to be neat.
For me the most important thing is that the sack is light, I've finally replaced my old Berghaus 50 ltr sack this winter with a Crux one. Both weigh under a kg, and thats why I like them. My belay jacket is also ridiculously bulky and will fill any extra space, but I don't carry waterproofs. The new LED torches help a lot keeping weight down, but I haven't used mine for any prolonged route finding.
Having said all that, on the two biggest 'hard' (for me) rocks routes I've done, we had all the stuff for a day packed into a sleeping bag compression sack. The perfect 'rock pack', weighs maybe 300 grs tops, sits high above your chalk and gear, and cost less than a tenner.
For me the most important thing is that the sack is light, I've finally replaced my old Berghaus 50 ltr sack this winter with a Crux one. Both weigh under a kg, and thats why I like them. My belay jacket is also ridiculously bulky and will fill any extra space, but I don't carry waterproofs. The new LED torches help a lot keeping weight down, but I haven't used mine for any prolonged route finding.
Having said all that, on the two biggest 'hard' (for me) rocks routes I've done, we had all the stuff for a day packed into a sleeping bag compression sack. The perfect 'rock pack', weighs maybe 300 grs tops, sits high above your chalk and gear, and cost less than a tenner.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
What DID you have in the sack for that trip up the hill? Neither Francois or I could lift it. If that is minimal what do you take for a week?
What DID you have in the sack for that trip up the hill? Neither Francois or I could lift it. If that is minimal what do you take for a week?
In reply to TobyA:
Have you thought about one of those expandable bum bags, I think Berghaus make one: enough room to shove a pair of trainers in and a waterproof. They also sit above the harness/chalk bag level.
Another good type of sack to consider, especially for things like the Cuillin ridge are the CamelBak style of sacks. A bit specialised I know but sometimes....
Bob
Have you thought about one of those expandable bum bags, I think Berghaus make one: enough room to shove a pair of trainers in and a waterproof. They also sit above the harness/chalk bag level.
Another good type of sack to consider, especially for things like the Cuillin ridge are the CamelBak style of sacks. A bit specialised I know but sometimes....
Bob
In reply to Bob:
I had a berghaus one for years - I got it when I was 18 and off to see the world, the idea with my big pack on I had it as bum-bag round the front with my valuables in, then when I could dump my big pack at a hostel or campsite, it would be my day pack. Worked a treat and was used everyday for 8 months. It fell apart a few years ago though. I think it was a bit low for climbing though - mine would have been at about harness level.
The compression bag really is perfect, for Vestpillaren we had two pairs of trainers, light rain jackets, 2 ltrs of water nuts and choccy. It worked a treat - stable, clear of your harness and mega light.
Just everyone wait - it'll be the next big thing I promise. My partner for Lofoten, TobyFK, was also sceptical at first, but had seen the light by pitch 6 or so!
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> Have you thought about one of those expandable bum bags, I think Berghaus make one: enough room to shove a pair of trainers in and a waterproof. They also sit above the harness/chalk bag level.
>
> Have you thought about one of those expandable bum bags, I think Berghaus make one: enough room to shove a pair of trainers in and a waterproof. They also sit above the harness/chalk bag level.
I had a berghaus one for years - I got it when I was 18 and off to see the world, the idea with my big pack on I had it as bum-bag round the front with my valuables in, then when I could dump my big pack at a hostel or campsite, it would be my day pack. Worked a treat and was used everyday for 8 months. It fell apart a few years ago though. I think it was a bit low for climbing though - mine would have been at about harness level.
The compression bag really is perfect, for Vestpillaren we had two pairs of trainers, light rain jackets, 2 ltrs of water nuts and choccy. It worked a treat - stable, clear of your harness and mega light.
Just everyone wait - it'll be the next big thing I promise. My partner for Lofoten, TobyFK, was also sceptical at first, but had seen the light by pitch 6 or so!
In reply to sutty:
Ah,, that wasn't me "minimal" sack. That was me "you're going out on the hill with people you've never been out with before, and one of 'em's called ALMOST Sane" sack.
As well as two sets of everything, plus rope, plus leading rack, plus a *pair* of technical axes *and* a walking axe, it contained sufficient claymore mines and razor wire to set up a defensive perimeter, a collapsibe helicopter landing pad, full medical kit and 2 inflatable nurses. Plus a puncture repair outfit.
I was prepared. It didn't slow me down *too* much!
Ah,, that wasn't me "minimal" sack. That was me "you're going out on the hill with people you've never been out with before, and one of 'em's called ALMOST Sane" sack.
As well as two sets of everything, plus rope, plus leading rack, plus a *pair* of technical axes *and* a walking axe, it contained sufficient claymore mines and razor wire to set up a defensive perimeter, a collapsibe helicopter landing pad, full medical kit and 2 inflatable nurses. Plus a puncture repair outfit.
I was prepared. It didn't slow me down *too* much!
In reply to belfast_phil:
For Scottish winter walking/climbing, I like a rucksack that is bigger than the gear I am carrying.
That way, when it is VERY WINDY and I need something from my pack, I can open the bag and root around without fear of everything blowing away. I can also open my lunch bag and take out a snack and close the bag again, all in shelter from the wind.
A bigger bag is also VERY HANDY for stuffing things in at the the end of a route when the weather is fierce and you want to go down now.
My old Berghaus Cyclops Roc weighs less than a kilo and is over 50 litres, and is nearly 20 years old. It has withstood more abuse than I like to think of, but is at last wearing out.
For Scottish winter walking/climbing, I like a rucksack that is bigger than the gear I am carrying.
That way, when it is VERY WINDY and I need something from my pack, I can open the bag and root around without fear of everything blowing away. I can also open my lunch bag and take out a snack and close the bag again, all in shelter from the wind.
A bigger bag is also VERY HANDY for stuffing things in at the the end of a route when the weather is fierce and you want to go down now.
My old Berghaus Cyclops Roc weighs less than a kilo and is over 50 litres, and is nearly 20 years old. It has withstood more abuse than I like to think of, but is at last wearing out.
In reply to belfast_phil:
For the walk in:
Paramo trousers
t-shirt or longsleeved thermal top.
25ml bottle of water in trouser pocket for constant hydration.
packet of winegums in same pocket.
ditto with some lip salve.
thin fleece gloves and thin fleece balaclava in other trouser pocket
in rucksack:
spare hat
shell gloves to go over fleece gloves
(possibly mitts if it is cold)
Pertex windshirt.
fleece top (not a heavy one)
very lightweight waterproof jacket
crampons and axe(s) as appropriate for the planned route
rope and rack and harness as approppriate
belay jacket (sometimes)
water
food
foil bivvy bag
Bothy Bag (aka emergency shelter)
basic first aid kit (ibuprofen and plasters)
map and compass
whistle
head torch (LED)
paper tissues (I have a dodgy gut and never know...)
car keys
mobile phone
camera
Unfortunately, I have had to use all of these at one point or another. Fortunately, not always on me.
For the walk in:
Paramo trousers
t-shirt or longsleeved thermal top.
25ml bottle of water in trouser pocket for constant hydration.
packet of winegums in same pocket.
ditto with some lip salve.
thin fleece gloves and thin fleece balaclava in other trouser pocket
in rucksack:
spare hat
shell gloves to go over fleece gloves
(possibly mitts if it is cold)
Pertex windshirt.
fleece top (not a heavy one)
very lightweight waterproof jacket
crampons and axe(s) as appropriate for the planned route
rope and rack and harness as approppriate
belay jacket (sometimes)
water
food
foil bivvy bag
Bothy Bag (aka emergency shelter)
basic first aid kit (ibuprofen and plasters)
map and compass
whistle
head torch (LED)
paper tissues (I have a dodgy gut and never know...)
car keys
mobile phone
camera
Unfortunately, I have had to use all of these at one point or another. Fortunately, not always on me.
In reply to almost sane:
Does nobody carry an asprin for heart attack victims? The one thing you might save a life with.
Does nobody carry an asprin for heart attack victims? The one thing you might save a life with.
In reply to sutty:
Yep...my little first aid kit has aspirin and neurofen in it. Add to that some compeed, a few plasters, antiseptic wipes, diarolyte, lip salve, wound dressing/ micropore tape, a crepe bandage, piece of waterproof card and a pencil stub and there you go.
Yep...my little first aid kit has aspirin and neurofen in it. Add to that some compeed, a few plasters, antiseptic wipes, diarolyte, lip salve, wound dressing/ micropore tape, a crepe bandage, piece of waterproof card and a pencil stub and there you go.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
One more thing...some steristrips.
Used all of it at one time or another. Twice I've used *most* of it in one day!
One more thing...some steristrips.
Used all of it at one time or another. Twice I've used *most* of it in one day!
In reply to chris tan: I've got a lowe alpine fitzroy 40 - absobloodylutely fantastic climbing sack. Plenty of room - good compression straps and gear loops on the hip belt.
In reply to belfast_phil: oh yeah. Never leave home without at least one malt loaf in your bag - the food of kings
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Rob, I'm with you on the rucsac issue 110%. A proper rigid back system and wide hipbelt more than make up for any extra weight. Saving 500gm (3-5% of the weight of a typical winter load) is not worth sacrificing a comfortable walkin/out.
I just gave away my 30litre walking sac that I hadn't used in 6+ years as I always used my Berghaus or now POD 50+ litre sac in preference, even for summer walking with minimal kit.
I have to admit that in 2001 I did feel slightly uneasy that my POD Black Ice was rather on the heavy side for 'high, fast and light' climbing in the Alps after reading and re-reading Twight's thoughts on the subject. I therefore got hold of a Mountain Equipment Solitude 40+. This has the 'karrimat' type back of the type mentioned above rather than an alloy frame. I have to admit that I found it crap. Although lighter it could in no way compare with the comfort and stability of a proper back system.
For almost any mountaineering, a proper back system and waist belt are the way forward.
Mark
PS POD Black Ice rock!
Rob, I'm with you on the rucsac issue 110%. A proper rigid back system and wide hipbelt more than make up for any extra weight. Saving 500gm (3-5% of the weight of a typical winter load) is not worth sacrificing a comfortable walkin/out.
I just gave away my 30litre walking sac that I hadn't used in 6+ years as I always used my Berghaus or now POD 50+ litre sac in preference, even for summer walking with minimal kit.
I have to admit that in 2001 I did feel slightly uneasy that my POD Black Ice was rather on the heavy side for 'high, fast and light' climbing in the Alps after reading and re-reading Twight's thoughts on the subject. I therefore got hold of a Mountain Equipment Solitude 40+. This has the 'karrimat' type back of the type mentioned above rather than an alloy frame. I have to admit that I found it crap. Although lighter it could in no way compare with the comfort and stability of a proper back system.
For almost any mountaineering, a proper back system and waist belt are the way forward.
Mark
PS POD Black Ice rock!
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Are mr Twight's thoughts on-line or are they in a book? I'd be interested to read them.
Personally I don't get on with the rigid back systems at all. May I ask you what you use as ground insulation if you have to bivvy on a route?
Bob
Are mr Twight's thoughts on-line or are they in a book? I'd be interested to read them.
Personally I don't get on with the rigid back systems at all. May I ask you what you use as ground insulation if you have to bivvy on a route?
Bob
In reply to belfast_phil:
Haven't tim,e to read full thread but has anyone mentioned ski goggles. I never go out in winter without them. A £15 pair that can get trashed live in the top pocket. When you need them their worth all the times you carried them without needing them. More use than most things under certain conditions.
Richard
Haven't tim,e to read full thread but has anyone mentioned ski goggles. I never go out in winter without them. A £15 pair that can get trashed live in the top pocket. When you need them their worth all the times you carried them without needing them. More use than most things under certain conditions.
Richard
In reply to bobw: "Extreme Alpinism: climbing light, fast and high" by Mark F. Twight & James Martin. The Mountaineers, 1999, ISBN 0-89886-654-5
Each to their own. Have yet to actually bivvy on any route, as nothing I've yet climbed has taken longer than 20hours. Use a thermarest ultra-lite and either leave all gear at bivvy site or on easier grades take all gear on the route. Perhaps when I'm climbing ED2 I might have a different view.
Mark
Each to their own. Have yet to actually bivvy on any route, as nothing I've yet climbed has taken longer than 20hours. Use a thermarest ultra-lite and either leave all gear at bivvy site or on easier grades take all gear on the route. Perhaps when I'm climbing ED2 I might have a different view.
Mark
In reply to Mark Stevenson: Some good advice here, personaly I carry a group shelter big enough for three plus an utralight bivvy bag. I do carry an asparin, paracetomol and I am going to add nurophen after a recent incident, this all lives in a tiny sealed box. I like a 40l sac that feels comfy to scramble in that I can stuff gear into at the top of the route in a hooly, but is just the right size. I find that I cannot find stuff inside a half empty 50l sac. I like to have all my food and drinks to hand in the lid pocket to keep energy levels up on the day, and being organised helps. Lots of sacs out there- dont get one too big and be ruthless with the contents!
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I don't get on with any sort of frame in a sac. I've removed the plastic sheet with alloy stays from my Macpac. As soon as I look up with a helmet on, my helmet catches on the top of the sac. I've used allsorts of sacs with and without frames and they're all bloody uncomfortable with a lot of weight in.
I don't have big hips - I can't seem to set up a sack to take the weight on my hips and anyway, that's no good for climbing. I've carried a Macpac Possum with adjustable back system a lot over the last 6 years. I still carry the weight on my shoulders.
Maybe I'm deformed........and Bob too.
Cheers
Richard
I don't get on with any sort of frame in a sac. I've removed the plastic sheet with alloy stays from my Macpac. As soon as I look up with a helmet on, my helmet catches on the top of the sac. I've used allsorts of sacs with and without frames and they're all bloody uncomfortable with a lot of weight in.
I don't have big hips - I can't seem to set up a sack to take the weight on my hips and anyway, that's no good for climbing. I've carried a Macpac Possum with adjustable back system a lot over the last 6 years. I still carry the weight on my shoulders.
Maybe I'm deformed........and Bob too.
Cheers
Richard
In reply to RichT:
"Maybe I'm deformed........and Bob too"
And I thought that the morphing had worked so well!!
Bob
"Maybe I'm deformed........and Bob too"
And I thought that the morphing had worked so well!!
Bob
In reply to Anonymous:
Yes, I take them, always. Needed them definitely in the Mamores and twice in the Cairngorms, in blizzards.
> (In reply to belfast_phil)
>
> Haven't tim,e to read full thread but has anyone mentioned ski goggles. I never go out in winter without them. A £15 pair that can get trashed live in the top pocket. When you need them their worth all the times you carried them without needing them. More use than most things under certain conditions.
>
> Haven't tim,e to read full thread but has anyone mentioned ski goggles. I never go out in winter without them. A £15 pair that can get trashed live in the top pocket. When you need them their worth all the times you carried them without needing them. More use than most things under certain conditions.
Yes, I take them, always. Needed them definitely in the Mamores and twice in the Cairngorms, in blizzards.
In reply to belfast_phil: I just bought a German sack in a sale in Canada. Deuter Aircontact 35+10 - it's a 35l climbing/skiing sack, loads of features but has an extendable lid which can increase to sack to 45l.
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