UKC

So I picked up on this this morning and I genuinely had to check the date of the story. I mean what on earth? Do they honestly think we're going to rush out to the car and start it so we can leave it running just to emit a bit more carbon the second we hear the word Beacons? 

https://news.sky.com/story/brecon-beacons-national-park-makes-bannau-bryche...

I mean it's ironic that they are telling us we need to use less carbon when they are a national park, I.e. a large part of their work is about tourism, ergo inherently bound to people using carbon emitting devices to get to the park unnecessarily. I have a theory about why the name change has occurred and why its being blamed on the climate crisis but I'm not saying it here cos I'll get lots of dislikes and my ego can't take it...

Your ego can take a bit of a dint. I mean it must be huge....

You cannot lay that phrase about a theory, and then not present it.

Theory is maybe, just maybe this is about trying to make people call something by the name you want them to call it, I.e. a Welsh name with the idea that that somehow makes the experience more Welsh. Don't get me wrong, I can say Yr Wyddfa and Yr Eryri, and Bannau Brechiniog, its just that they are names fairly well established in history and I don't actually see the harm...

I quite like the new name…not really sure about the new logo.

For me the key bit in the article is the NP saying they don't expect everyone to use the new name and people can choose which they prefer.

Looks to me like a combination of a push for more use of Welsh (not unreasonable), senior management liking a bit of rebranding action (possibly not the best use of funds, but whatever) and the media trying to write a story that will get clicks (media owners trying to make money is not news).

Like I said, no particular beef with the name, but trying to claim they are going carbon neutral by not calling the park by a name with Beacons in it? Come on... what's next on the decarbonisation agenda? Removal of the slag heaps around Merthyr? Will they providing electrified steam engines for public transport into the heart of the mountains and reopening the old tramways?

It's in Wales, Bannau Brycheniog is the name of the mountain range that, when translated to english is Brecon Beacons. It sounds better. get over it.

That's not what they're claiming though, is it? They're making the change as part of their climate change response, which I'll grant you is a stretch, but they're not in any way trying to claim that it's having an actual impact on going carbon neutral. That's down to separate parts of the plan.

They haven't claimed that at all. 

General tip for people who still just read headlines before stomping off to their favourite internet outlet to vent their outrage:

Online headlines are deliberately written to push your buttons  and get your blood up, so you immediately go off and share links across the internet and drive traffic. The headlines quite often have little to do with reality or what has actually been said. 

Read the article.

Yep, this and the aforementioned identity / language issues..

To the OP, there's worst in the world to get vexed about!!

Bannau Brycheiniog dammit. Misspelt by me and OP.

It's a rebrand for an organisation. it really isn't worth all the fuss that so many people seem to be making over it.

I suspect that the use of a beacon in the logo was the result of a previous clumsy branding excercise.

Shockingly, it's not an April Fool that a country wants to use their own language. 

I really enjoyed this video of Michael Sheen... inspirational stuff.

youtube.com/watch?v=m7fcRyIY3EQ& 

That less than 20% of the population actually speak?

I don't really have a strong opinion to be honest but the levels of incredulity from people wanting others to acknowledge 'their' language that four fifths of the actual population don't even speak is mildly amusing.

Hence why it needs public use to help encourage its use - and official use of pre-anglicised place names is a great way of doing so. Like you have said, it makes very little difference to you anyway, so does it really matter? 

I don't speak Gaelic but I'm happy that most of the Highland hill names haven't been anglicised...  

I was gonna post that! Michael Sheen is brilliant. Any chance I get to pronounce Cymraeg I am going to take. It's a beautiful sounding language. Objections to Welsh being used in Wales are utterly reactionary. It's like insisting on saying stream and hill in the Lakes and Dales instead of beck and fell. Embracing the language is just another way to love the landscape. 

This helps me:

https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/news/gaelic-hillname-pronunciation-made-eas...

Go and sit on Lord Hereford's Knob for a bit and ponder whether whether you'd rather be on Twmpa.

I too love the Welsh language, I have a mate that helps with pronounciation. It can be hilarious when I make an attempt at a word before he corrects me.

Someone on FB wrote the following and it sums up my thoughts exactly;

I don't see what all the fuss is about. It's always been called Bannau Brycheiniog in Welsh and Brecon Beacons in English. The Park authorities have said that in future they are going to refer to it (& themselves) by the Welsh name rather than the English name - it's just a rebranding exercise. Speak Welsh? Then call it Bannau Brycheiniog. Speak English? Then call it Brecon Beacons.

No-one has renamed it, no-one has passed a law forbidding you from calling it Brecon Beacons, no-one will look at you with a blank expression if you call it Brecon Beacons.

Same name, just favouring Welsh, which is fair enough.

A lot have, by locals.  Just not on the OS maps which got their names from folk wandering about in the 1860s-ish with notebooks.

Quite honestly, saying I think Welsh shouldn't be used in Wales is ridiculous. That is 100% NOT what I said. Of course the Welsh should speak as much or as little Welsh as they like. What I am saying is that: 

1) expecting non Welsh speakers to know what is on a sign in a language they don't speak, in a country where the language spoken is predominantly English is unrealistic. Does that mean we can't learn what it says, of course not, but I honestly don't see the harm in putting it in both languages. Happens in countries all over the world, sometimes in 3 languages. Doing so actually gives the visitor MORE information and greater cultural insight rather than less.

2) rebranding exercises are total tosh. What a waste of money which could be used for improving facilities. Yeah in the grand scheme of things it might be small fry, but still not the point.

3) my points about the climate crisis were somewhat tounge in cheek. I am fully aware that it's click bait, and found the whole thing fairly amusing, hence posting it. 

4) efforts to force a name chance are relatively pointless. Mount Snowdon will continue to be misnamed for the foreseeable future etc. The notion that it encourages people to speak Welsh, really? People who live there, if they feel it's an important part of cultural heritage are not going to see a sign in Welsh and think "oh yeah, I should call it Bannau Brechiniog" they will most likely be calling it that as a matter of course because it's their language!

I think here in N Wales it’s been generally positive and my view is that more people in the hills are making an effort, not necessarily to learn Welsh but to improve their pronunciation and say diolch etc. Of course many people won’t but it is Wales and the native language is Welsh regardless of the % of Welsh speakers.

Good thing they've renamed it... I was just about to go and start lighting fires.  I'll put the matches down then.  That was a close call.

We should also rename Swansea.  It's offensive to people who are afraid of swans (I'm not offended myself, I'm just offended on behalf of others, of course).

I hope I don't come across as being deeply cynical 

But, to me this looks like they want to burn some money on a rebranding exercise, maybe they have nothing better to spend it on or anything better to do than spend loads of money on logo design and branding and image management, or furthering the careers of their executive.

I am supportive of the Park naming itself primarily in the language of the regions and English as an equal-second, I am in no way opposed to that! However... is that REALLY what is driving this?

The article linked in original post seems to suggest they don't like the corporate logo based on a beacon because burning stuff release carbon, so they are embarking on a re-branding exercise... and while they are at it they are taking the opportunity to brand Welsh-first,  understandable... but it smells like a retro justification for all the money they want to spvnk on rebranding.

"...   "As we went through the process of looking at the brand and thinking about the kind of park and organisation that we wanted to be, the old logo didn't seem to make a lot of sense, we're an environmental organisation so a giant, carbon-burning brazier isn't really a good look," she said..."

Sounds like a whole load of marketing b0llx and playing politics (keeping up with Eryri) rather than anything of real substance that will actually benefit people who live and work in the park or visit it. They are acting like they have too much money? Couldn't they support some local farmers with the money instead - how much will this end up costing them?

I think it's great, think of the extra work generated at taxpayers expense for new stationery, website work, road signs, logo'd jackets and vehicle livery. All completely pointless but a good boost for the local economy! 

Not necessarily the local economy, dare I mention the road signs made outside of Wales and the comedy (for non Welsh people anyway) results with translations over the years.

https://www.cyclingwales.co.uk/badlytranslated.html

Not necessarily the local economy, dare I mention the road signs made outside of Wales and the comedy (for non Welsh people anyway) results with translations over the years.

https://www.cyclingwales.co.uk/badlytranslated.html

No need to "re" name it.Swansea IS already the renaming.

The city is actually called Abertawe. 

I totally agree with all of that. I personally have no problem at all with educating myself about places I go, it's a part of travelling, as I say though to me the idea that only one language should be used is straight up daft. We are a multi-lingual country and trying to just erase the English part doesn't seem like it's going to work to me. I am sure that everybody realises this which makes the governmental exercises to achieve this seem even more pointless. So I go to the Dolomites a lot. They speak Italian, German and atleast 5 different local dialects there. The signposts are in Italian, German and whatever the local dialect is. Yes there are a few vocal nationalist groups who try to change this but for the most part, the mountains have three names, the locals are really happy if you take an interest in their culture, and it's all just part and parcel of the charm of the area. I would have though visiting foreigners think the same.

"Swansea" is derived from the name of a viking called Swein. It's an old name then, not a translation of Abertawe which just means mouth of the river Tawe. A bit like the Scottish place-names which derive from old Norse settlement eg Dingwall, Askival, Barra, Vatersay etc.  The names tell the history of the place and speak of the diversity of origin of the population.

I don't know many in Lochaber that have - although I may just be going to the wrong places

Everybody's banging on like stuck records about the cost of this rebranding but no one has quoted a figure.

Things like stationery will only be replaced when the old lot is used up I'm sure. A few new signs aren't exactly going to break the bank either. I can think of many, many more egregious wastes of money to get worked up about.

As a border dweller although just east of the Wye I wish that the whole nation would just use their own langauge rather than bugger about being bi-lingual. After all some/many Welsh names are used so why not the lot? Great idea if you ask me.

However I object strongly to the OS map "The Wye Valley and Forest of Dean" being labelled in both langauges. Us Foresters are most upset. There can be no Welsh words for Forest of Dean. 

Well Highmeadow woods are actually in Wales!

I have heard hills named by translations in Kinlochleven (almost Lochaber). Old Man, Maiden etc....

I think that for me it's the explicit confirmation that the name, the NP itself, is just a 'brand'.

Isn't everything these days...

It's interesting that they've come up with some trite rubbish about beacons being environmentally inappropriate (I mean wha?  Their fleet of vans will kick out more carbon than a few beacons ever did), yet the logo incorporates, er, a beacon.

Like "Eryri" I don't mind too much, though perhaps as part of the deal they should stop referring to nonexistent places like "Caer", "Llundain", "Lerpwl" and "Manceinon" on the railway station displays and road signs, which do nothing of benefit bar confusing tourists.  If they want us to use the Welsh names for Welsh places, perhaps they could use the English names for English places.

(If you don't think those confuse tourists, I spoke to someone at the weekend who said he wondered why all the A55 services were all called the same thing before realising that Gwasanaethau just meant services - and he wasn't in the slightest bit thick nor from outside the UK!)

Doesn't seem like the name change in Snowdonia has gone down a storm, even with the Welsh, presumably because most of them speak English.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/readers-pick-one-clear-wi...

I can't see why the Brecon Beacons change would be any more popular, especially given that far fewer people speak Welsh in that area.

Bi-lingual name usage seems perfectly reasonable, given that everything else in Wales uses that approach. But a Welsh only policy seems like the tail wagging the dog.

My understanding is that although a Viking influence on the early history of the town seems likely, there is no definitive evidence that the name 'Swansea' has a Viking derivation. I have seen a possible alternative suggestion that it may derive from the Welsh 'Ynys Waun Isa', both seem plausible, but I can't seem to find anyone claiming any certainty of the origin.

I was being sarcastic, the whole event is nothing more than cheap pointless PR. 

If he can realise that he will feel like I did in Russia when I was trying to transliterate the station's place name as my train pulled out of it. The signs all said      ПЛАТФОРМА  ...

I'm just going on this:

"The name, Swansea, pronounced /ˈswɒnzi/ (Swans-ee, not Swan-sea), is derived from the Old Norse name of the original Viking trading post that was founded by King Sweyn Forkbeard (c.960–1014).[8][9][10]

It was the name of the king, 'Svein' or 'Sweyn' with the suffix of '-ey', "island" referring to either a bank of the river at its mouth, or an area of raised ground in marshland.[11] However, the Norse termination -ey, can mean "inlet" and the name may simply refer to the mouth of the river.[12]"

...And that my university Morris team was called  "The Men of Sweyn's Eye". Proof enough!

I live in Ballachulish and haven't heard that, Then again, Kinlochleven is 'different'

Which one is old man?

Aren’t occasional moments of confusion (and subsequent learning) just part and parcel of being a tourist and going to places that are different from home?

They went on holiday and came away with a mildly amusing anecdote about dealing with another language, which didn’t inconvenience them in the slightest. I can’t see that putting them off visiting again.

Come on now, you know what narrow-minded bureaucrats are really like - they'll change the lot in one go, chuck the old lot in the bin, and there'll even be some stuff currently on order of the old design that will be scrapped before they pay the bill.

Then there'll be some items on the new design that haven't turned up on time so they'll have to delay anything involving such for heaven knows how long.

The Munro immediately north of Kinlochleven, Am Bodach (the old man), and just to the east along the connecting ridge, Na Gruagaichean (the maidens).   

That one's a laugh, sure.  But if you miss your train because you've no idea where the nonexistent place "Llundain" is, then you'll be a lot less amused.

See also I suppose Virgin and then Avanti using "Euston" as a destination on displays rather than "London Euston".  That's only appropriate for a TfL train where London is assumed because it all is.  And indeed the Thais using "Krung Thep Aphiwat Central Terminal" which is nothing of the sort, it's in a suburb, a bit like considering Stratford or even Watford Junction to be central London.  So I guess it's everywhere.

You won't believe the number of villages called Ausfhart which are signposted from the motorways in Germany.

Ooooh, those narrow-minded buggers. Dontcha just hate them, eh Fred? What’s needed are more open minds like yours, but they won’t see that, they’re too narrow-minded than bureaucrats. 

From the border and I quite like places having two spellings or even in the case of Llanandras/Presteigne, two names.  It's part of our identity.

I once asked for a ticket to Ludlow  and got one to Llandudno which sounds nothing like Ludlow.

Could have been a lone smart arse

Ausfart - twinned with Llwybr Cyhoeddus

Har!Har!Har! 

I'll never grow up.

If you miss your train because you can’t figure out a bilingual sign I’d say probably just chalk it up to experience rather than expect a whole nation’s signage to be changed to accommodate you.

What do you do when you leave the UK and the signs aren’t also in English?

In which case, why can't I refer to Snowdon, Snowdonia and the Brecon Beacons, as those are the English names for those places?

All I'm saying is that doing it one way and not the other is hypocritical and confusing to tourists.

And yes, I'd rather see Bruxelles/Brussel on the board at St Pancras, and equally London, not Londres, on the board at t'other end.  I have never seen any sense whatsoever in translating place names, except in bilingual locations where both languages are used in that city itself and thus it genuinely has two names, and Chester, Liverpool, Manchester and London are not bilingual (unless you count Polish).

You literally just did. Note the conspicuous lack of anyone stopping you.

Edit: what do you mean by “in which case”? I can’t for the life of me see how this follows logically from anything I said. 

In reply to:

It's a wonder a lot of people in this thread ever make it out of the house in such a confusing world

Word is the new nomenclature is 'up the BBs'

I think I can say this because I was born in Anfield, English is definitely a second language in Liverpool

'..be most upzet', surely.

Did you read the original article?

While Bannau Brycheiniog National Park says it is committed to promoting the Welsh language, it adds that it does not expect the public to use the official name and that they can "choose what they prefer".

Which begs the question, if they aren't serious about the idea that they will be changing what English speakers call the mountains, what is the point? I 100% support the use of Welsh, but so far nobody has actually told me why english speakers not saying Bannau Brechiniog is going to bring about the demise of the Welsh language? Surely keeping Welsh alive and healthy is about parents and teachers in Welsh schools encouraging children to learn the language, rather than getting people who are ultimately unlikely to take it up just for the love of Wales  and the odd holiday there. I absolutely love Wales, we go several times a year, it's part of my identity as a Briton (of foreign descent) and I would not want Welsh Heritage to disappear. My main issue with all of this is that the Welsh government seems to have a misplaced agenda. By all means, change the signs around so it's Welsh first, English second, but just having Welsh doesn't teach us non speakers anything...

Hahaha, every time I hear the phrase "better reflect the world we live in today", I have a good laugh-out-loud moment because it's a dog whistle buzz phrase that carries as much meaning as "make america great again" or "strong and stable".

If they really want to reflect the world we live in today, maybe it should be renamed "****ing the planet to death national park".

I'll bite on this one, as I think it's a fair question. If they'd taken the "It's Wales, we speak Welsh, get over it...." approach then the howls of outrage would have been astronomical (rightly, in my opinion). This approach does very little to inconvenience English speakers, who no one is demanding they use the Welsh name. What it does help is the 100's of thousands of kids learning Welsh, Welsh learners and other interested parties in normalising the use use of the Welsh names, rather than defaulting to the English ones. Even kids in full Welsh immersive education (I was one) can gravitate to default English as they are surrounded by it, so by promoting the use of Welsh names as default, it is a step towards normalising the use of Welsh outside of school/language classes in the areas where Welsh as a social language has died off over the past 70-100 years. Welsh as a learnt language is on the up, but Welsh as a social language is in a perilous state, when engulfed by English language media on all sides.

If it makes non Welsh speakers pause and consider the history of the area they're in then all good and if it makes people want to visit because it's different, then that's a bonus for the local economy. People attempting to pronounce the names and learning a bit about the language are appreciated, but nobody is stopping those that want to keep referring to the Brecons, Fan dance or whatever other English language name you want to use.

To put it in re wilding terms, this announcement and the Eryri one are a couple of stakes in the fence that'll keep the English language woolly maggots from eating all the green shoots of Welsh language regeneration.

Note that I'm specific about language, rather than Welsh/English people - there are plenty of English speaking only Welsh people that have a dim view of the policy of trying to normalise Welsh language use and think it is a waste of space. Just because you speak Welsh doesn't make you a nationalist, but the populist media response to these kinds of changes are doing a grand job of beating the recruiting drum amongst Welsh speakers. 

That's my take, hope it helps.

I tell you what, this is a very coherent argument and one which I appreciate. I suppose from my point of view I am comparing to Ladin; as I mentioned above I visit the Dolomites a lot and really appreciate the mixed linguistics there, with the dialects being spoken by a far far smaller number of people than Welsh. They are perhaps not growing in use but in each of the respective areas there is a great deal of pride taken in their respective heritages and hearing that individual dialect (and they really ARE individual) being spoken is commonplace. Maybe I don't understand the reduction of Welsh in common use, but every time I visit I do hear welsh being spoken as a matter of course so maybe I'm visiting the right places or I'm just lucky in that respect. 

As I say on this front, dual signs give more information, not less. If I see a sign which says Bannau Brechiniog and Brecon Beacons beneath it, I can automatically learn that Brechiniog is Brecon and Beacons might be Bannau - in this case it's wrong but I'm getting a feel for it. Likewise, Yr Wyddfa being Snowdon etc. I know Araf slow, Ambwilans is ambulance etc - I've actually learnt some Welsh from roadsigns! I simply would know otherwise.

As I've said, I have zero beef with the Welsh, I come from a German Jewish background so have always found the antipathy between the English and Welsh surprisingly strong. That said I have personally experienced strong anti-English sentiments many times. Quite honestly I think most people in our respective countries have more that binds them together than separates them on an individual level. I can very much appreciate driving through Merthyr, why people there would hate the Tories and Thatcher, or why people from Blaenau Ffestiniog are angry having been abandoned by the government, but that is the government, not individuals. I personally have been told that I shouldn't try playing any of my English tricks by a campsite owner in North Wales, I've had people booing me for cheering for England during a rugby game when we weren't even playing Wales, I noticed the condescending official note on a Betwys Y Coed noticeboard during the pandemic telling English people to put their masks on because they're not in England now. I've also experienced incredible friendliness and warmth, I suppose this mix of experience is what might lead one to feel that there might be a reason to politicise this sort of rebranding effort...

"> Things like stationery will only be replaced when the old lot is used up I'm sure...."

I hope this is the case but I know that a lot of printed promotional materials were dumped when the welsh assembly government became the welsh government so I'm not holding out too much hope.

On travelling on the autobahn a friend remarked to me, "this Ausfhart place must be massive, I've seen about 6 exits for it".

But I can't say too much as a few years later I was confused that I couldn't find the city of Aachen (as it was marked on my road atlas) on any road signs only to later find that I'd passed it ages ago marked up as Aken.

Yup, all the small languages of Europe (and I'd guess the rest of the world) face the same issues. One of the benefits we've lost with leaving the EU is the ease of working with, travelling through and learning from these areas. I did survey work up in the hills above Tolmezzo in the Eastern Dolomites where the parents spoke Friulian, worked with a Catalan speaking architect in the hills above Perpignan and love the Romansch area around Scuol in Switzerland. The more you look, the more you realise that they are the norm, pushed out either by active government policy or through changes in social structure as younger generations move away for work.

A common theme amongst speakers is that they are treated at best as an irrelevance with rolly eyed condescension through to outright blind hatred for being different. When you've been on the receiving end of that for generations, it is very difficult not to feel alienated towards the people doing it. In the Welsh case, that is predominantly English people, purely by dint of geography, so the Welsh language inevitably becomes entwined with politics. It has always amused me the seeming oblivion that a lot of English people live in with regards to the effect their historical governments had on people all around the world. They then feel bewildered when being attacked for being English. Yes, it is probably unfairly warranted in their direct case, but at least have the awareness of why people are doing it. If that makes you "woke" in their eyes then so be it, I'd prefer to think of it as being a decent human being, keen to be educated. Mike Parker is a good author on Welsh/English relations that can see the issues from both sides. 

https://www.mikeparker.org.uk/neighboursfromhell.html

The signs are a difficult one, as having them all in Welsh would help with the normalisation of Welsh, but I'd agree that having bilingual signage works well and is a great teaching tool for those interested. I've appreciated the new signs in the Scottish highlands when I've been up there - adds an extra depth to the countryside for me, but they got a load of shit when they were put in. Don't go to the Gaeltacht over on the west coast of Ireland if you expect compromise on your signage though - Out of Galway, then boom, road signs in Gaelic only. I can't see signage in Wales changing substantially in the rest of my lifetime, it took decades even to get to the point of having Welsh on signs in the first place!

For a long while I was surprised at how many Hotel Gwestys there were signposted! I know better now.

That's a bit like "this Not in Service must be an amazing place, all the buses seem to go there!"

Hahaha.  That make chuckle!

A thoughtful post. There are some people who simply cannot tolerate being wrong or ignorant. If something lies outside their competence or understanding that thing must be unnecessary, rubbish etc on a sliding scale all the way to evil. All anti-intellectualism, prejudice and xenophobia arise from this. Hence, speaking Welsh is a waste of time and an affront to non Welsh speakers. Understanding climate science means you are a bunny hugger or a bitter elite witch. Being a qualified virologist makes you a member of a worldwide conspiracy against common sense. Carrying a violin case makes you an obvious candidate for having head kicked in. 

This might help those with opinions in the absence of facts....

https://theconversationuk.cmail19.com/t/r-l-tteoyd-ovijjkhyu-e/