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Queuing on the Crib Goch ridge

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There were queues of 100 people on the Crib Goch ridge on Saturday May 7 according to N. Wales Live - https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/picture-shows-huge-queues-forming-23902174

A picture in the article shows the well over-populated ridge. This is madness. It is unsafe and surely unpleasant to be on the ridge in such ghastly crowded conditions. Thank God the Snowdon group honeypot means other mountains in Snowdonia are not so crowded. Mass mountaineering tourism is a foul thing for people who like a measure of solitude.

37
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I was on CG on Good Friday and there were only a few other people on it so it might not be the new normal. That said it’s pretty easy to find solitude in Snowdonia although obviously that won’t apply to the honeypots which are the way they are because they really are incomparable.

 birdie num num 09 May 2022
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I can't say that it's madness, or unsafe. But most definitely boring. 

2
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Have you genuinely never seen Crib Goch this busy? It is amusing that people treat it like a queue though, you can pretty easily jog past the slow walkers on the left and I have done so in the past.

 elliot.baker 09 May 2022
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I saw this article - I love Crib Goch and have done it several times in good weather and bad. Normally I’d set off about 5-7am depending on the season, and most times I’d have it pretty much to myself. 
 

once we got there at about 10am. Never again! People in trainers and jeans, hen do’s with people who clearly had no idea what they were getting into, a guy frozen in fear straddling the ridge holding up a queue like the one in the photo while his friends coaxed him on, I found myself on one of the narrowest parts standing still, balanced and waiting to move, and a guy behind me put his hand on my shoulder for balance! In the end me and my mate dropped down the side of the ridge and walked past them all and then had it to ourselves, relatively. They looked as us like we were mad / pushing in front of a rightful queue or something.

That day made me realise something about crowds in that type of terrain - people are conditioned to think there is a “path”, where you should/must walk, so what you found heading up for the ridge was long groups of people queueing to go up exactly the same set of holds as the stranger in front of them (I’ve seen the exact same thing on Tryfan). I’d just pick a spot several metres to the side and head up next to them (obviously safely and not stepping on their toes). 

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

The comments are pretty good...

 BuzyG 10 May 2022
In reply to elliot.baker:

Yup, often well within the capability of a seasoned  mountaineer/scrambler to simply find a safe alternate route around the populous.  Nothing wrong with a bit of safe que jumping in such situations.

 GrahamD 10 May 2022

Lots of self motivated people on the hills ? I'm all for it.  I find it ironic that many people complain about crowds in the hills whilst forgetting that they ARE one of the crowds in the hills.

 VictorM 10 May 2022
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

This happens all the time. A couple of years ago me and a friend of mine were doing the normal route for the Ötztaler Wildspitze in Austria, which goes through a short rock band equipped with a steel cable before you start the glacier approach proper. 

Instead of taking the steepish névé gully to the right, pretty much every climber in front of us took the cable, which took forever. In just a few minutes I fronted up the gully which was wonderful. 

 Fat Bumbly2 10 May 2022
In reply to VictorM: Got told off for doing a flanker on Prisojnik in the Julians. (on rock this time) It too was wonderful.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

If you like solitude, pick a different mountain.  It is only one.  I don't get why people get so bothered about this.

1
In reply to Neil Williams:

Crib Coch --> Crib Lem Spur

Bristly Ridge --> Clogwyn y Person Arete (inc Parson's nose)  *albeit a bit longer and more serious*

"Mount Snowdon" -->  various excellent walks in the Moelwyns

Pen y pass car park --> Croesor *free* car park

I agree, there are Always alternatives

1
In reply to Neil Williams:

> If you like solitude, pick a different mountain.  It is only one.  I don't get why people get so bothered about this.

Agreed, if you want solitude, don't go near Snowdon on a sunny summer weekend....shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone that it's going to be busy.

 VictorM 10 May 2022
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

Interesting, isn't it? 

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

FWIW...  I think the first time I walked over Crib Coch was a sunny August bank holiday in 1989(?) and there was a queue about half the size as the recent picture, so tourist honeyspots aren't a new problem, just been a bit worse recently

 Hardonicus 10 May 2022
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

I got a bollocking on the Hornli for the same. We were so slow we were getting in the way of the guides/clients on the way down though!

 elliot.baker 10 May 2022
In reply to midgen:

I'm training to do the Welsh 3000s and need to reccy doing Crib Goch "backwards" in couple of weeks, as it's one of the few bits I haven't walked already - so no 'alternative'.

Last year (out of lock downs) I had the summit of Snowdon completely to myself (both on nice clear days) twice in the space of a couple of months (both week days). Both times I thought "I never expected to have this place to myself ever in my life, no matter about twice in a few months".

That feels like my fill of Snowdon summit now - I've had it good so don't need it again on busy days!

1
 Duncan Bourne 10 May 2022
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I remember when we were there a few years back, we saw no one as we joined Crib Gogh from a ridge up from the Pass. Crib Gogh was busy but people were easy enough to circumnavigate. Alas we had forgotten sandwiches and so decided to head to the summit cafe. There it was like Oxford street in the sales, with massive queues. Then we decended another ridge to Cwn Glas Mawr and saw no one.

3
In reply to elliot.baker:

The only time I have ever had that mountain range to myself was during Storm Brian. We took the calculated risk that with the prevailing wind direction we would be alright and would be able to reverse if needed anyway. It paid off, did the whole horseshoe and met absolutely no-one at any point.

 timjones 10 May 2022
In reply to elliot.baker:

> I'm training to do the Welsh 3000s and need to reccy doing Crib Goch "backwards" in couple of weeks, as it's one of the few bits I haven't walked already - so no 'alternative'.

There is an alternative, it really is not necessary to recce it.

On the day that you go for it start early and it will be quiet.

 jkarran 10 May 2022
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

> A picture in the article shows the well over-populated ridge. This is madness. It is unsafe and surely unpleasant to be on the ridge in such ghastly crowded conditions.

I'm clearly being a bit dim, I can't see a picture of the ridge busy in the link but anyway, what's unsafe about it being busy?

Busy routes are as unpleasant as we make them. Afterall, everyone is there for the same thing, you can seethe at others for spoiling your joy and solitude or take pleasure in others experiencing something fun you came for too. Slow down, relax, enjoy the camaraderie. If that's not your thing then treat it as a life lesson about tackling big-name roadside lines middle of the day on sunny bank holidays.

jk

Post edited at 12:34

Apologies for a massive digression. Sorry I'm not a Welsh speaker, but can any native Welsh speaker confirm if Crib is masculine or feminine and so if there should be a soft mutation or not. Googling didn't help me for "crib" as I learned its a noun (no kidding!) but said it can be either masculine or feminine?

So... Once and for all... should it be Crib Goch or Crib Coch?

 Fat Bumbly2 10 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

I used to enjoy Snowdon because of this - it was different. Great ridges too.    

 Fat Bumbly2 10 May 2022
In reply to VictorM:

The hill with a hole

 jpicksley 10 May 2022
In reply to jkarran:

Agree with this.

The picture in the link doesn't show the queue. Try this:  https://www.mountainxperience.uk/do-i-need-to-queue-on-snowdons-crib-goch/

or even this for Tryfan: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/queues-snowdon-being-described-worse-23730755.

For years I've been amazed that more people aren't out on the hills but at the same time been glad that they aren't. It seems to me that some mountains will have to/have become sacrificial lambs and we will have to accept this if we want to maintain free access to the hills. Snowdon is a glaring (jarring?) example of this. People are being encouraged to visit these places for various reasons. It's our right but human nature dictates that we create honeypots due to herd mentality. We (and by "we" I mean the sub-sample of humans that is the cognoscenti making up the ukc environment) don't have more right to be there than anyone else. My choice is to stay away from the honeypots at obviously busy times and go at obscure times of the day if I really want to go (but go with the mind set that it may be much busier than I like and live with it). If, for example, one chooses to do the Welsh 3000s then you'll just have to deal with it. There are many places that are still very, very quiet.

 elliot.baker 10 May 2022
In reply to jpicksley:

When I do the W3K I'm going to set off from PYP at about 4-4:30am, mid-week, later this summer. I don't expect I'll see many crowds!

 CampusBored 10 May 2022
In reply to CantClimbTom:

Hi Tom, It's definitely Crib Goch - I don't know exactly what rule causes the word mutation, I think this is an example of a "soft mutation without a trigger in the same phrase" - if it helps at all Crib Coch wouldn't sound right to a native welsh speaker...

In reply to CampusBored:

Thank you

 RobAJones 10 May 2022
In reply to elliot.baker:

> When I do the W3K I'm going to set off from PYP at about 4-4:30am, mid-week, later this summer. I don't expect I'll see many crowds!

You should be OK mid week, but I was surprised when dropping a friend and his daughter off, at a similar time, just after Easter for the same reason. The parking officer was fine when he realised I was just dropping them off but there was considerable activety in the car park. 

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Some regular visitors to Snowdonia have complained in recent times about the mountains becoming like "Picadilly Circus" - spoiling the area's unique appeal.

Oh the irony! 

In reply to jpicksley:

From your first link:

"For those not aware of this popular route, after you’ve scrambled your way up on to the ridge you then have to traverse the knife-edge arête with huge drops either side of you and little opportunity to ‘overtake’ slower walkers."

I feel that really is a misrepresentation of Crib Goch, to be honest. For as long as I've been on mountains I keep hearing it and it just isn't true. Yes, the right/south side is steep. The left/north side is certainly not steep enough for an experienced party not to be able to safely overtake.

3
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> I used to enjoy Snowdon because of this - it was different. Great ridges too.   

I like there being a cafe up there too, it's a novelty other mountains don't have.  They don't have to all be the same.  It does cause a bit of harm to nature, but it's only one mountain and a lot less harm than a large housing estate in a farmer's field.  And when it's open does mean fewer turds and less bog roll lying around.

Swiss and Italian mountains often have "rifugios" so it's hardly on its own!

Post edited at 16:20
1
In reply to Alkis:

Though I would ask people to be aware and careful of novices.  I had a bad experience up there a while back when a bloke showing off running along the top of the ridge almost took my terrified mate off completely when he tripped on him.  He panicked and we had to go back down as a result, but it was lucky he held on and that the "tripper" didn't go flying off himself.

It's certainly not a mountain for the impatient.  Passing is possible, but it does need to be done considerately and with care.

2
 jpicksley 10 May 2022
In reply to Alkis:

Quite possibly true. I can't remember since it's so long when I last did it and I think the last time I went it was mainly dark and I have no interest in travelling hours back down south to do it again.

Full disclosure though, I didn't read the text and the website has nothing to do with me. It was purely to give jkarran the photo that was causing all the fuss.

 VictorM 10 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

The Zugspitze has what seems like a train station stuck just beneath the summit. And a big ass restaurant. Feels a bit weird. 

 Tonker 10 May 2022
In reply to jpicksley:

> Agree with this.

> The picture in the link doesn't show the queue. Try this:  https://www.mountainxperience.uk/do-i-need-to-queue-on-snowdons-crib-goch/

😆.....I'm taking my son round it on Saturday...only got the car park booked for 8 hours, could be touch and go!

In reply to CantClimbTom:

> So... Once and for all... should it be Crib Goch or Crib Coch?

It's Crib Goch, Red Ridge.

If it was called 'The Red Ridge' it would then be Y Grib Goch. There is no need to use treiglo (mutation) on the first word in a sentence.

2
 jpicksley 10 May 2022
In reply to Tonker:

Take a pack of cards or kerplunk to while away the hours.

 JB 10 May 2022
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

 Gordon Stainforth (of this parish) took pics of queues on Striding Edge on a bank holiday...see below. I don't know what year this was but I remember seeing the book yonks ago so I'm guessing the 90s? I think there have always been queues on popular routes - although feels like numbers are increasing of late....

http://www.gordonstainforthbelper.co.uk/Lakes/pages/Striding%20Edge,%20Bank%20Holiday_jpg.htm

In reply to JB:

Yep. There was a significant number of people on Crib Goch when I first did it, as my first mountain outing on a miserable, drizzly, foggy October weekend in 2007. The honey pots have been the honey pots for a long time.

 Alun 12 May 2022
In reply to CampusBored:

Interestingly enough, if you go to https://geiriaduracademi.org/ and search for 'comb' it will inform inform you that 'crib' is both gwrywaidd and benywaidd; indeed it even gives several examples of dual gender usage (e.g. "crib mân" / "crib fân").

However, when the word 'ridge' is translated (also to 'crib'), it seems it's always feminine, according to the dictionary, hence "Crib Goch" is correct - which is good because that's what everyone calls it The formal reason is that adjectives following the female gender noun take a soft mutation.

The dual-gender word thing is a new one for me though. Sawl enghraifft arall sydd o eiriau dwyrhyw yn y Gymraeg? / How many other examples of dual-gender words are there in Welsh? I confess I have no idea...!

Post edited at 21:17
 Fat Bumbly2 13 May 2022
In reply to Maggot:

Wait until they hear about Croagh Patrick.

In reply to Neil Williams:

> It's certainly not a mountain for the impatient.  Passing is possible, but it does need to be done considerately and with care.

It can be done a metre or two away from the ridge easily enough. People are fixated by the ridge itself even when it's congested.

 montyjohn 13 May 2022
In reply to Maggot:

> I'm amazed that no one has picked on this yet ...

I don't get the fuss to be honest. Someone above complained about people climbing Snowdon in trainers. A pair of trail shoes are a perfectly acceptable way to climb many of the Welsh mountains.

I personally wouldn't use flip flops but if you are doing something like Llanberis Path up Snowdon, wear whatever you find comfortable. And don't be too quick to judge. She may have conditions where boots etc are painful for her, but flip flops she can walk in all day. Who knows?

On Llanberis Path, which is about as complicated as a highway verge you can walk in anything provided you can walk in them for half a day. Just don't kick a rock.

In reply to montyjohn:

> I don't get the fuss to be honest. Someone above complained about people climbing Snowdon in trainers. A pair of trail shoes are a perfectly acceptable way to climb many of the Welsh mountains.

If you can run up them in "trainers" you can walk up them in "trainers"!  The difference is cultural, runners accept wet feet and walkers don't.  Of course there's a world of difference between a decent pair of Inov8s (or similar) and a pair of Converse.  On the other hand the Llanberis path can probably be walked in anything, really (someone did it barefoot not so long ago).

1
 peppermill 13 May 2022
In reply to Maggot:

Paved path. Whatever.  Be reet. 

Convinced the whole "YoU MuSt WeAr StUrDy BoOtS" jazz is about 20 years out of date. 

Don't fancy doing it in flip flops mind....

 deepsoup 13 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

>  (someone did it barefoot not so long ago).

Fat Bumbly already mentioned it upthread, but anyone who finds that shocking should check out Croagh Patrick on the last Sunday in July!

 GrahamD 13 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

My ex wife happily walked everywhere either in wellies or flip flops, depending on weather.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I'm a bit late to see this but, having been on Crib Goch on the day in question, I can say that this story appears to be, quite frankly, utter bollocks. 

I went up there with two people who are fairly fit trail runners but are novices to scrambling and wanted to try it out. Both were absolutely fine on the terrain, albeit one was understandably slow moving - simply being careful, what with being unfamiliar with that level of exposure - that meant we, once or twice, had small numbers waiting patiently behind us, so we just let them past at a safe opportunity. I explained to the slower member of our group to just go at the speed she's comfortable with and take her time - if someone behind is comfortable going past in a safe manner then they can do so.

You can see from the following photos how horrendously dangerous and awfully busy this was:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Q8PQ3Gh9HaPEyjxT6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EgoDP4eCVDZybTY37

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NmnqydGK8QS3fC9f9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1yeLLmNwZVQhCg4A8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/u7cuj2M8apQmeSXw6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fuTWFgZoZGm1mFcn9

Madness

The time stamps on the photos tells me that we were up on the ridge at midday, so I'd be extremely surprised if it later became so busy as to match the description in that article

There were even some people in, shock horror, trainers and tracksuit bottoms. Despite overwhelming odds, I don't think any of them died and they even looked like they were having a good time in the pretty much perfect weather. 

That article is baseless, fact-less, clickbait and, to my mind, we as people who care about mountain environments shouldn't be giving it attention (though I realise that's what I'm doing here).
Even if the ridge was as busy as described...so what? There's nothing inherently unsafe about the ridge being busy - the only thing that would be unsafe is people being too impatient with slower scramblers ahead of them. If you don't want to risk having slower people ahead of you then don't go up on a glorious sunny Saturday - I was worried that this would be the case but was pleasantly surprised.

The summit was certainly very busy (with the comedy orderly queue for the summit cairn) but I was part of that crowd so can't complain.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/e2sMeYpYsLGSpFKn7

The mountains are for everyone and if more and more people going to them makes them over crowded then I don't know what the solution is, but it certainly isn't articles like this, with reactions calling it madness or unsafe.

/rant

(edited to put the right photo links in)

Post edited at 16:11
 montyjohn 13 May 2022
In reply to Byronius Maximus:

> The mountains are for everyone and if more and more people going to them makes them over crowded then I don't know what the solution is

I have ideas. The Welsh government (or whoever runs the show) seem to think that the overcrowding at Snowdon should be dealt with by hiking parking prices, fining people who park on the side of the road, and write articles about how it's not for everyone and you will die unless you are not an experienced mountaineer.

In other words, making the whole experience worse for everyone.

I suggest that they spend that effort making other peaks better. Improving parking an access to other mountains. Carry out some publicity campaign about other great hikes in Snowdonia. Providing quality maps online, gps routes etc. They could even allow people to rate them to help you decide that route to go on. They provide information about to get there, what equipment and experience they need etc. for those routes, expent the buses to to those routes. On longer routes promote wildcamping to make them even more appealing. 

In other words, make other parts of Snowdonia better.

13
In reply to montyjohn:

Yes, I think those are good suggestions! I do understand the parking fines as people can park pretty irresponsibly, such that the roads become difficult and potentially dangerous to drive on, but can also see the more cynical (but quite possibly accurate) view of that.

 GrahamD 14 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

Providing more car access doesn't make anywhere "better". 

4
In reply to peppermill:

> Paved path. Whatever.  Be reet. 

> Convinced the whole "YoU MuSt WeAr StUrDy BoOtS" jazz is about 20 years out of date. 

> Don't fancy doing it in flip flops mind.... 

My last few dry hill days have been in Brooks Cascadia running shoes including an elogated Cadair Idris circular last week with some scrambling. Grippy, light, just the job. 

Wouldn't fancy getting wet feet early on the walks though. Flip flops, no way. I hate getting stones between my toes.

.

In reply to Byronius Maximus:

> I'm a bit late to see this but, having been on Crib Goch on the day in question, I can say that this story appears to be, quite frankly, utter bollocks. 

> I went up there with two people who are fairly fit trail runners but are novices to scrambling and wanted to try it out. Both were absolutely fine on the terrain, albeit one was understandably slow moving - simply being careful, what with being unfamiliar with that level of exposure - that meant we, once or twice, had small numbers waiting patiently behind us, so we just let them past at a safe opportunity. I explained to the slower member of our group to just go at the speed she's comfortable with and take her time - if someone behind is comfortable going past in a safe manner then they can do so.

> You can see from the following photos how horrendously dangerous and awfully busy this was:

> Madness

> The time stamps on the photos tells me that we were up on the ridge at midday, so I'd be extremely surprised if it later became so busy as to match the description in that article

> There were even some people in, shock horror, trainers and tracksuit bottoms. Despite overwhelming odds, I don't think any of them died and they even looked like they were having a good time in the pretty much perfect weather. 

> That article is baseless, fact-less, clickbait and, to my mind, we as people who care about mountain environments shouldn't be giving it attention (though I realise that's what I'm doing here).

> Even if the ridge was as busy as described...so what? There's nothing inherently unsafe about the ridge being busy - the only thing that would be unsafe is people being too impatient with slower scramblers ahead of them. If you don't want to risk having slower people ahead of you then don't go up on a glorious sunny Saturday - I was worried that this would be the case but was pleasantly surprised.

> The summit was certainly very busy (with the comedy orderly queue for the summit cairn) but I was part of that crowd so can't complain.

> The mountains are for everyone and if more and more people going to them makes them over crowded then I don't know what the solution is, but it certainly isn't articles like this, with reactions calling it madness or unsafe.

> /rant

> (edited to put the right photo links in)

The most contentious part of this post is the video of the queue to get to the summit. Its a friggin 360 degree peak ffs. Just scramble from t'other side if you really need that summit piccie. Its not the bloody ladies toilets in a nightclub. Pfft, summit queues!

5
 Fat Bumbly2 14 May 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Was up there on a busy day, stood by the Trinity edge and waving at my Brocken.  Hardly anyone came over to have a look, despite the cloud sea below, until someone I knew spotted us and asked why the waving.  

A narrow path from which you should never deviate.

1
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> Was up there on a busy day, stood by the Trinity edge and waving at my Brocken.  Hardly anyone came over to have a look, despite the cloud sea below, until someone I knew spotted us and asked why the waving.  

> A narrow path from which you should never deviate.

I should clarify. My comment was about Mount Snowdon summit, not the ridge.

1
In reply to montyjohn:

It might be Gwen Moffat. You never know. I'm amazed at how tough people can be.  No experience,  no idea, never give up. Even in bad weather. 

 Fat Bumbly2 14 May 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

So was mine

In reply to Neil Williams:

Agreed. It's always been more about the feet the shoes are on than the shoes themselves. The right feet also tend to know what shoes aren't suitable. I've had several pairs of trainers that would be less suitable (slippery soles) than my flip flops.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> The most contentious part of this post is the video of the queue to get to the summit. Its a friggin 360 degree peak ffs. Just scramble from t'other side if you really need that summit piccie. Its not the bloody ladies toilets in a nightclub. Pfft, summit queues!

Yes, but you risk getting punched by an idiot chanting "join the queue".

1
In reply to montyjohn:

> I suggest that they spend that effort making other peaks better. Improving parking an access to other mountains. Carry out some publicity campaign about other great hikes in Snowdonia. Providing quality maps online, gps routes etc. They could even allow people to rate them to help you decide that route to go on. They provide information about to get there, what equipment and experience they need etc. for those routes, expent the buses to to those routes. On longer routes promote wildcamping to make them even more appealing. 

God no. Too much commodification. Let the sheep follow each other and let people with a map and some imagination enjoy the other places.

> In other words, make other parts of Snowdonia better.

None of those suggestions make anywhere better.

Post edited at 12:58
2
 Lrunner 14 May 2022
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

This a classic article for the Post which is an absolute rag. What have they done to get their article? go on twitter and quote a few people they have never met and can't even verify if they are real or not. The whole "live" network of papers have really embraced the race to the bottom. 

The recent articles about snowdon hinge pretty much on a few people's opinions, often folk who run their own walking companies and who must be delighted for the exposure. they are the mountaineering equivalents of articles that say "busty former teacher makes 35000 a week on only fans", with out having made even the most basic off efforts to verify their facts. But in the age of content is king, who cares about speaking to real sources. 

Would it be so much for the "journalists" to perhaps go to snowdon for a weekend and see for them selves. Local news used to so important to holding those in power to account. Now its mainly garbage. 

So, having read this thread I ran aross the ridge today. It was busy but not mental. People moved out of my way as I over took them and everyone looked like they half knew what they were doing. Whilst the summit was mobbed the ranger path was empty and I had the whole Moel Ellio ridge to myself bar a few other runners. The bus up to pen y pass was choker and all the cafes in Beris were busy. So its no all bad 

Post edited at 16:26
 montyjohn 14 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> God no. Too much commodification. Let the sheep follow each other and let people with a map and some imagination enjoy the other places.

That just sounds like you want to keep people who don't know the area away. I don't see how making knowledge of Snowdonia more available is a bad thing.

I think Pen Y Ole Wen is a great peak, with an interesting horseshoe you can do, but someone visiting from the city isn't going to know that and they haven't got the time to explore all the peaks with their short window to find out so why not give them alternative options to Snowdon? Because it will and is the default.

I think it's all roadside parking for that peak from memory, although there are camp sites you could use. But if people knew about this peak and visited en mass they would need more parking. What's wrong with that?

I don't understand the idea of making national parks less accessible to people.

6
 Tonker 14 May 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> The most contentious part of this post is the video of the queue to get to the summit. Its a friggin 360 degree peak ffs. Just scramble from t'other side if you really need that summit piccie. Its not the bloody ladies toilets in a nightclub. Pfft, summit queues!

Having just come back from doing the Horseshoe the summit circus was certainly eye opening... I did queue for the summit because it was my sons first time up Snowdon and he wanted a pic by the trig point, if you want this you have to queue....45 mins 😆..... in that time I saw about half a dozen  arguments as some people couldn't be bothered queuing and just pushed in to get a trig point pic... I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if a fight had started! 

No queues on Crib Goch though....

 Tonker 14 May 2022
In reply to pancakeandchips:

> Yes, but you risk getting punched by an idiot chanting "join the queue".

Tbf it's taking the piss to jump the queue and push in because you can't be arsed waiting.

I can see why there is a queue as without it it would be absolute chaos for those wanting a pic by the trig point.... the numbers around the summit were mind boggling today.

5
 ExiledScot 14 May 2022
In reply to Tonker:

No. It's the outdoors, free, a national park. You touch the top and bugger off. No one, absolutely no one, has the right to the summit to themselves whilst they take a photo. If there are folk in your background of your Instagram, facebook etc.. then tough $hit, go walk up a different quieter hill if you want it to yourself.

1
 GrahamD 14 May 2022
In reply to Tonker:

At the height of Covid, queuing made a lot of sense.  It's never that long and there is always stuff to see and people to talk to.

 Tonker 14 May 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

You don't need to touch the top of the trig to  claim you've climbed it.... its a man made construction anyway....just touch the platform its built on and fire off if the 'summit' is important....was easy enough to do that today and tbh virtually everyone who wanted to touch the trig was willing to queue... and every dude that pushed in the queue was taking a pic anyway!

Yes of course you could claim anyone should have the right to just amble up and touch the trig and immediately leave if touching the trig is important and you'd be right...but most people don't do this they'd stick around for a bit IMO and I dare say even longer than taking a quick snap and firing off.

If I'd have been on my own today I'd have just ambled past the trig...

At least with the queue people take a quick snap and do fire off immediately... its a circus for sure and tbh most people by now should know what the situation is like on a sunny Saturday in May... the numbers up there today were ridiculous.... and you could always flip it that anyone who doesn't want to be part of this circus it can go up any other mountain in the UK....for example I've never seen Scafell Pike anything remotely like this in terms of numbers.

2
 Mark Eddy 14 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

But there have been excellent maps available for many many years. Ordnance Survey and Harveys produce them and they are widely available and affordable. For anyone needing additional information / inspiration there are plenty of guidebooks detailing many fine mountain days.

Promote wildcamping???? An activity that is tolerated (but only just) but illegal.

Other parts of Snowdonia are already better, please don't tell anyone

 Offwidth 14 May 2022
In reply to Byronius Maximus:

The view I witnessed was illegal parking on Pen Y Pass and Ogwen Cottage on a number of occasions that was atrocious, in terms of blocking the road to single carriageway for some distance. At Ogwen cottage on one occasion an ambulance was struggling to get through with blue lights. I'd love an ability for the police to fine these tossers ten times the normal parking fine.

 Offwidth 14 May 2022
In reply to Mark Eddy:

Wild camping in Snowdonia NP isn't illegal. It just requires land owner permission to be legal.

https://snowdonia.gov.wales/visit/plan-your-visit/camping/

In reply to Offwidth:

> Wild camping in Snowdonia NP isn't illegal. It just requires land owner permission to be legal.

Similar to camping in someone's garden then?
 

1
In reply to ExiledScot:

> No. It's the outdoors, free, a national park. You touch the top and bugger off. No one, absolutely no one, has the right to the summit to themselves whilst they take a photo.

But if that photo is important to them (perhaps walking up Snowden, for them, was a big challenge and they want an indelible memory?), it's just polite and decent to try to not get in the way. It doesn't cost you anything, and it's not like you really have any need yourself to visit trig point. It's just a lump of stone.

2
In reply to tehmarks:

> But if that photo is important to them (perhaps walking up Snowden, for them, was a big challenge and they want an indelible memory?), it's just polite and decent to try to not get in the way. It doesn't cost you anything, and it's not like you really have any need yourself to visit trig point. It's just a lump of stone.

By the same token, should you begrudge someone that is able to quickly dab the trig point by gaining access to it by means other than the standard tourist one?

1
In reply to FactorXXX:

No, absolutely not, I wouldn't (well, I wouldn't be at the trig point to begin with!). Alas some people, from both sides of the equation, are a bit less reasonable. There'll always be less reasonable people in the world.

 ExiledScot 15 May 2022
In reply to tehmarks:

> But if that photo is important to them (perhaps walking up Snowden, for them, was a big challenge and they want an indelible memory?), it's just polite and decent to try to not get in the way. It doesn't cost you anything, and it's not like you really have any need yourself to visit trig point. It's just a lump of stone.

If it's important to them, then I'm sure they'll always remember it regardless of precisely where the photo was taken and who might be in the background. It's the fact that despite hundreds going there they expect the summit to be theirs alone, or at least portray it on their social media. 

Post edited at 06:03
3
 ExiledScot 15 May 2022
In reply to Tonker:

There aren't problems elsewhere because snowdon is a soft tick for it's height. It's an easy angle from llanberis with train options, or a high start from pen y pass. No such luxury on Scafell. Plus snowdon has a cafe. It is a farce really but it does keep them all in one place! 

Post edited at 06:02
1
 Fat Bumbly2 15 May 2022
In reply to tehmarks:

It’s also a fake trig. The surveying one was on Carnedd Ugain. The OS put one on Yr Wyddfa due to demand

 GrahamD 15 May 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> There aren't problems elsewhere because snowdon is a soft tick for it's height. 

Snowdon is also a beautiful hill, irrespective of the hoards of fellow walkers on it.

In reply to Neil Williams:

> Of course there's a world of difference between a decent pair of Inov8s (or similar) and a pair of Converse. 

Converse don't drop to bits after a couple of hundred miles? 😉

Post edited at 09:46
In reply to ExiledScot:

You've never looked at a photo of a meaningful day and felt a wave of nostalgic emotion?

 ExiledScot 16 May 2022
In reply to tehmarks:

> You've never looked at a photo of a meaningful day and felt a wave of nostalgic emotion?

I've never thought if only I could edit out other people and pretend I was alone, no. It is what it is on the day, if wanted it to myself i should get up earlier! I'm not suggesting they don't take photos, but sole use of the summit why should they ? 


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