UKC

Forgive me if this has been raised previously. I feel it may open a quagmire.

In the past, I gained ML and SWMML,  along with other walking qualifications, I was needless to say a member of the BMC. I am now retired from the more serious group leading and assessments.

I look forward to joining social walking groups (groups of senior walkers). These tend to be well-meaning active mature walkers, who do not necessarily have any walking group leader skills, but local knowledge of many walking routes in the area.

The social walking groups do not charge or hold any membership, normally one could assume 'Volenti non fit injuria', and that everyone has a duty of care, but my qualifications could be seen as overarching to any, of the group's social walkers.

What is the consensus on me just turning up for a social walk, how does this stand with me in the event of an 'occurrence', with me, 'vicariously' being the more qualified?

Thanks

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

You might be more ‘qualified’, but some of them will probably be vastly more experienced.

Just go along for a social and stop over thinking it.

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

How would anyone even know about your old qualifications?

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

...who do not necessarily have any formal walking group leader skills...?

If you are retired, and have not kept up your 'tickets', then you are no longer considered to have any formal walking group leader skills, surely...? Just as my retired sister keeps reminding me she is no longer a nurse (regardless of her 40 years' experience), having finally let her registration lapse.

In reply to ScraggyGoat

You do have a point, about perhaps 'overthinking'. As for 'experience', the jury is out on that one. That is until something goes 'pear-shaped'. 

Thanks, your comment,  made me 'think', from a different perspective, and I do have the choices, and ultimately vote with my feet.

In reply to Basemetal:

Thanks, and yes you may have a point, but when social chats about life and experience are raised, when previous employment and other subjects are raised, it is a little hard to hide.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Alas, that is not the case 'The Mountain Leader qualification has no expiration date and you'll hold the award for life'. So by 'walking with a group', any ML would vicariously hold that badge.

'Who do not necessarily have any formal walking group leader skills...?' You added 'formal' to my original post, it is my understanding that you thought I meant WGL as in the formal qualification. this is not what I meant. More of - Leader of a Walking Group, sorry to have confused the issue.

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

Join the group under a pseudonym and always wear a false beard.

At the first sign of trouble on the hill tell your party you're just going ahead for a second to check the route, and leggit. By the time they're puzzled and saying to each other "is he actually running? why's he running? Can you still see him?"  You'll have effected your escape!

Problem solved! you're welcome...

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

I was wrong to suggest you should ‘Just go along for a social’………for the benefit of these groups I think you should stay well away from them.

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

It's a fair question. For there to be actionable liability there are some conditions that must be met:

1) a duty of care was owed to the participant(s).

2) injury or damage has occurred. 

3) the duty of care was negligently breached resulting in the injury or damage. 

If you're a group member rather than leader of the group it'd be difficult to establish that you owed a duty of care in any formal sense. If there's no duty of care then it can't be breached. 

If someone hurt themselves and tried to say "I wouldn't have done XYZ unless Moreoutdoor was there." then hold you liable, they would still need to establish that a duty of care was owed by you. That's where Volenti has some support in your defence, but also any lack of formal arrangement which would otherwise establish a duty of care. 

I don't have my book of Tort cases to hand but would be interesting to look up whether there are any real life cases where qualifications led to duty of care without an arrangement or agreement for instruction or guidance. 

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

No, I meant they don't have a bit of paper to say they have been formally taught and assessed. They may have walking group leader skills acquired through experience and self-development.

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

I find myself in a similar situation, but whilst I have not taken any leading duties for the group, formally, I am always alert to risks and possibilities. I am ready to respond to any incidents or injuries. I have insulation and a waterproof covering and a first aid kit and satelite communication device (Mostly for when I'm off on my own but bring it along JiC)

One of the leaders has an encyclopedic knowledge of the countryside and walks, he is a published author of local walks. He also has an encyclopedic knowledge of the local train and bus timetables.

With another of the leaders I'm subtly, sometimes, pointing out waymarkers. My tactic these days is to make comments about all of the waymarkers, blue, yellow recreational trails etc.

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

Welcome to UKC. I wish the reception from the site to a perfectly sensible mountain leader related question from a new poster could have been better but at least some replies were helpful (where I'd agree... risks are low if you are not acting as a leader .... and if you needed to lead in an emergency, would you really care? .... most would try to help first and worry about such things after .....and worst case third party cover is part of BMC benefits). Part of this response is because we have been beset by bots, trolls and banned user 'wackamoles'  (one of whom may have had tens of profiles) but too much is plain grumpiness or sarcasm from a few good guys who should know better ..... we've all been told several times it puts off new posters.

Compare and contrast with when the site is at its best:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/updated_advice_please_power_wheelcha...

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

Unless you are missing a relevant (16hr) first aid cert. They do expire. 

In reply to Offwidth:

A rather depressing thread - can we really not go for a walk without worrying about being sued?

Would BMC insurance cover someone with "enhanced", for want of a better word, liability?  Presumably it's not any sort of PI cover.

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

I have seen instances where someone who considers themselves more experienced or qualified derails the leaders plans for the day and when that happens it has the potential to get messy if things subsequently go wrong.

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Regardless of your qualifications or not, Dave X has answered your query.
I too have an MLC and in the past as a walk leader for a holiday company, I was by appointment in charge and therefore responsible for things I did or did not do.

But if I'm joining a group with or without a leader and I've not been 'appointed; leader then I've no responsibility at all if they all want to walk off the nearest cliff. or choose the most dangerous route. 

However, if you as a group member suggest something that turns out badly, then if it goes to court and you are found negligent or liable for what you did or said etc., then you could be sued.

Some years ago I asked on here if any group leader  or group member had been successfully sued even if they had been negligent - and I think there was only one case  referenced which involved a leader of a scout troop who was found negligent. 

Enjoy your walks

In reply to Moreoutdoor:

I would have said that in a recreational context, with a group of equals and with no formal 'leadership' implicit there is no 'enhanced duty of care'. You're just out having fun and you are all looking after each other.

There IS a duty of care that all of you will share; your actions should be those of a 'reasonable person'. Members of the group shouldn't do daft things that put others at risk but there's no particular reason why you should be held to a higher standard.

You'd be surprised how daft extremely qualified people can be when out with their mates.....😂

In reply to Offwidth:

Thank you for your welcome,

When considering this post I appreciated that if I put my head above the parapet, there could be a few snipers out there, that I accepted.

Should a situation or query arise, I, for one, am not an Ostrich and bury my head in the sand, and understand that no question is silly.

Aside from the odd 'wackamole', I welcomed ALL well-meant responses, whether for or against my question. I take on ALL of their viewpoints, however, I do believe 'WE' are becoming a litigious society, and 'WE' should ALL take heed.

So thank you ALL again, with ALL of your balanced views I believe I now know which way to proceed.