UKC

Ok I was reading Dempsters Mountain Scrambles last night, and he dicussed this,

Whats a scramble, and when does it become a climb. When you walk in the pub do you say Ive just climbed the dubhs ridge, or do you say Ive jsut scrambled up it?

To me the lower end is pretty obvious, if you have to use your hands your on a scramble.

but the upper end? Id go with moderate graded rock climbs, some say its at easy (collies ledge (scramble to me). examples.

To me the dubhs ridge was a scramble, yet just a bit harder and Id put Pinnacle ridge (diff) on Sgurr nan Gillian as a climb.






PS Im bored waiting for gels to run, stain, destain etc.

In reply to Iain Ridgway: If you feel nusafe without a rope, its a climb, I reckons.

In reply to Smitz: UNSAFE - I speel gud

In reply to Smitz: Its Ok, I read it "if you feel no safe" perfect glaswegian!

In reply to Iain Ridgway: I always viewed scrambling as a type of climbing and not walking

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Grade 3 scrambles were described to me as normally better approached roped together, but not using any other kit.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Rockclimbing is a sport which entails the real possibility of falling, and so requires a rope if you want to be certain of remaining alive. On a scramble the possibility of parting company with the rock is so low as not to warrant the use of a rope.

This long-winded definition of mine is only applicable to climbers (like myself) of average ability.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: so under your classification would you put pinnalce ridge climb or scramble? any othe examples.

Cheers

In reply to TRNovice:

Agreed, grade 3+ scrambled defined as requiring knowledge of rope techniques.

It was obsession with scrambles (grade 2 to 3 only then) that made me take up rock climbing, as I was starting up gullies then arriving at vertical headwall at exit (diff or v diff but 400 ft up). Me and me mate thought we better learn said rope techniques and carry necesary item.

I still like scrambling, but think pure climbing actually safer

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Scrambling involves the possibility of falling surely???

In reply to OldManOfTheHills:

I agree - I've felt pretty unsafe on some scrambles - it's a long way down with no protection!

In reply to OldManOfTheHills:

Raven crag, rh part of Shephers crag, in Borrowdale can be done as unsatisfactory scramble exiting via scree and giants ants nests, or nicer easy rock climb sticking to steeper but easier ground.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:
always though Pinacle ridge was a scramble, but the abseil is easier with a rope

(Although I have downclimbed that bit once, not as bad as it looks)

In reply to Iain Ridgway:
As i just pointed out on another thread in reference to something else-
it's a continuum- there are no arbitrarily set boundaries in life, and it matters very little. I suspect on the dubhs ridge you "climbed" some of it and "scrambled" the rest. Incredible.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Dear Iain

My definition for a scramble is a “sporting walk” and it is different for everyone. One scramble is a walk for some and it is a climb for another. For me, a scramble is where I have to take my hands out of my pockets.

Norrie

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Depends how well you're going and the conditions. I was going very confidently when I did it so soloed the whole thing. Very top end (grade 4?) scramble, tho downclimbing the abseil from the 3rd pinnacle is really a Mod rockclimbing pitch.

Dubh Ridge. I put on rope for 10 ft in a chimney near the top. Wasn't necessary.

West Ridge of Gillean, only a scramble at the start if you get the route exactly right.

An Stac, very top end scramble. Very serious.

Clach Glas/Blaven traverse. Definitely only a scramble if your route-finding is good.

Collie's Route on Sron na Ciche. Only Mod, but most definitely not a scramble.

In reply to TRNovice:

So a grade 3 scramble is where if one of you falls off you all die?

In reply to TRNovice:

Scrambling involves only a very, very low possibility of falling (about the same as being knocked down by a car as a pedestrian). If not, you should not be on it, because eg. the conditions are bad.

A rock climb must involve a very real risk of falling, otherwise you're just playing around, many grades within your ability.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

It was after doing one of the "scrambles" in that book (Tower Ridge) that I decided it would be a good idea to find out about basic ropework and hence got into climbing. Is Tower Ridge a climb or a scramble? I think I'd still tend towards the latter but might well change my mind if I did it again

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I guess I've just been playing round for the last 12 years then

If I feel there's a very real risk of falling off a route, I usually won't even bother starting it.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Not QUITE what I meant . More that you might need an anchored belay at some point.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I've certainly been playing around climbing easy routes for the last couple of years. Enjoyable, but not really the essence of climbing at its best.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I agree it's generally much lower than climbing, but maybe not quite as low as you suggest. The issue is that you have no system of protection.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

In your opinion
For me, if there is a very real risk of falling off I get too frightened to enjoy it (except retrospectively).
The essence of climbing at its best is exemplified by for instance Eagle Ridge on Lochnagar, or Espelon Central on Puig Campana. Long, sustained, and easy enough to relax and enjoy.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: thats it, he defines a scramble, anything below mod grade climbs, then describes a number of diff routes, good book though, Dont you think theres a hole in the market for a good scrambling book of scotland?

his is good, but not really comprehensive, Ive got the Lochaber one.


Cheers

In reply to Iain Ridgway:
Didn't rate the Lochaber one, the SMC Skye Scrambles is excellent though. Yes there's probably a gap in the market for a more comprehensive Scottish one.
We were on Sgor Gaoith the other week and some of the ridges coming up from Loch Einich looked like they'd make nice scrambles (or alternative loose unpleasant death traps). We couldn't find them documented anywhere which either means they don't go, or just that they've not been written down.

In reply to TRNovice:

The issue is the level of danger. But the difference between scrambling and soloing a rock climb is that fit, confident climbers with little or no technical rockclimbing experience can do a scramble quite safely without the need of a rope.

A rock climb of any standard will always involve a technical puzzle of some kind such that if you do the crux move wrong you will almost certainly lose contact with the rock.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: yeah mTB'd up to loch Einich before Xmas, looks good, I have the skye one, agree not a massive fan of Lochaber, Ill have to get out exploring in the summer when the days are longer.

For me, the difference between a scramble and a climb has not been about grade but about the sense of purpose. If you walk-in, climb and walk-out, you're climbing; if you go for a walk where you need to use your hands, you're scrambling. In other words, if the journey is important as well as the climbing, then you are scrambling.

FWIW, I believe that Grade 3 scrambles generally top out at Mod, with Grade 3S pushing into Diff or, ocassionally, VDiff.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

When I was a kid a scramble was something you got at a wedding.

Just thought I'd add that.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:
I've tried a couple of possible lines in Gleinn Einich, ended up facing blank granite slabs I didn't want to solo or taking to frightening vegetation. I'm sure there are some lines other than 'Roberts Ridge' there but I couldn't spot them from below. And I think I remember Andy Nisbet telling me that one or more of the recorded rock climbs had more or les fallen down.

I think the old Malc Smith / SMC guide books had some descriptions

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

A former manager at my local wall said to me once, "If it's not tech 4a it's only scrambling..that's why I don't set low grade routes".
So, if you've ever had a V.Diff day out, according to him it was only a scramble...

HAND,
Martin.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

OK - I agree with that

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Steve Ashton summed it up well when he said a scamble becomes a climb when you become preoccupied with the rock moves and not the general ambience of the situation.

Pinnacle ridge I considered to be mainly a scramble with the odd bit of climbing thrown in.

In reply to One formerly known as A lurker:



I have always considered the following to be true:

Grade 1 - No harder than an Easy climb
Grade 2- Bits no harder than an Mod climb
Grade 3 - Bits no harder than a Diff climb

For example Pinnacle ridge on St Sunday crag (grade 3) has one 15ft pitch of diff climbing, the rest is Easy/Mod.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

A scramble is a climb when it is in ascent. On descent it is not a climb. A walk up a hill is also a climb, as is a cycle ride up a hill.

Rock climbers and alpinists do not have a monopoly on the word "climb": this word long pre-dates those activities.

The distinction between the sports of rock climbing and scrambling is indeed blurred in cases such as Tower Ridge. This is true of much mountain climbing.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:> So a grade 3 scramble is where if one of you falls off you all die?


Its quite possible to tie in and belay without using stitch plates etc. Classic belay, belayer firmly seated behind boulder etc. Slings as improvised waiste harness help.

Think alpine style 'climbing' perhaps

In reply to OldManOfTheHills:


Yeah alpine style climbing is ideal for grade 3 scrambles and a much underused pratice in this country. As long as you have one decent runner between each person moving together is fairly safe even on steep ground.

In reply to SimonW:

ah, but Mr Novice wasn't allowing us any gear other than the rope

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Flick the rope round a spike maybe? Apart from that yeah one off all off!

In reply to SimonW:

For me atleast scrambles are are stuff where you don't build (or use) anchors and move simultaneously. Climbing starts when one starts to belay.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I presume if Mr Novice has the sense to ask here he has sense to take and use kit.

I take slings, and sometimes a 'friend' if solo scrambling grade 3 or solo 'cimbing' anything over 20 feet. (Two long ones round shoulder plus pos a short one.) Very light and enables more secure resting if draped over airy pinacle.

In reply to OldManOfTheHills:

Not sure about having any sense - but I don't think too much kit is normally required for grade 1 or 2 scrambles (assuming that there is not much chance of impending bad weather forcing you to lose height in a hurry). Doubtful visibility / weather conditions is another matter. Of course a route which was listed as a grade 1 might be rather more difficult due to recent landslips / rockfalls etc. I guess you never quite know, I remember taking the path up Snowdon once in moderate rain and it being washed away completely at one point, ending in a sheer drop. We had to scramble up, traverse and then climb down slightly to regain the path (I felt rather sorry for the day trippers walking down the other way in wellingtons after taking the train up). So a gentle tramp up on a path turned into a moderate scramble for a bit. Saying all that, have been on a guided grade 1 scramble (my second I think) and had the guide arrange an anchored belay to get some of the group down a 20 ft drop. Then again I think he was just as interested in illustrating how to arrange the anchor as anything else.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Surely scrambles still retain a certain degeree of horizontal movement?

Walking up a 1 in 4 hill retains a majority of horizontal movement to vertical.

Climbing a rock face at 60° retains 1 movement horizontally for almost 6 vertically.

Furthermore, the horizontal parts would come in stages rather than a 60° slab.


Or am I way off the mark?

In reply to TRNovice:

The other thing is that most of the arguements here apply to the:

When is it a boulder problem and when a climb.

if you substitute boulder problem for scramble.

In reply to Al Urker:

Some scrambling is pretty sustained (and exposed) - or maybe I'm just crap at refinding the path :-o.

In reply to Al Urker:

Yup - and I agree that definitions are always going to be a matter of both personally skill / experience and taste.

In reply to Al Urker:

er....

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I clearly forgot to mention that a climb is a climb when you are moving upwards more than horizontally.

And furthermore, you are quite correct regarding my horrendous cockup of trig.

it should have been one movement horizontally for 1.7 vertically.

In reply to Al Urker:

So now we know. It's all down to trigonometry.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It's certainly one aspect.

I can't think of many scrambles that when you finish it you are vertically above the point you started.

All I'm saying is that there's a limit on horizontal movement that under which it is unlikely to be defined as a scramble

In reply to Al Urker: So waht the cuillins, theres sections of that that are flatish, but more climbing than scrambling.

In reply to Al Urker:

But there's a lot of easy climbs you end up nowhere near vertically above your starting point - but yes, it's an interesting way of looking at it.

Actually, can you think of any scramble that ends vertically above its starting point?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I've thought of one: Collie's Ledge then doubling back to the summit of Sgurr Mhic Coinnich. You are almost vertically above your starting point if you look over the edge.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

But do you have to move quite a distance horizontally to get there?

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

I did say that I prefer a scramble to have a broken profile, rather than a slab at a mild angle, which, I would most probably always define as a climb, as one slip, and you'd keep going to the bottom.

In reply to Al Urker:

Yes, up vertically about 10 feet, then more or less horizontal (over massive drop) for several hundred feet, up about a hundred then slightly ascending traverse all the way back to summit.

I guess the steepest scramble I've ever done is the summit tower of ClachGlas.

Any other contenders?

In reply to Al Urker:

So above a 45 degree slope then?

In reply to TRNovice:

That's an awfully simplistic view of what I said.

a blank 45° slope may just be climbable, but a slip would be serious.

A climb where on average you maintained 45° (give or take a few degrees either way), would need some flat areas, and some areas more than 45°, but would remain a scramble.

In reply to Al Urker:

Where does the Idwal Slabs leave your theory? I'm sure they are a lot less than 45 degrees.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

No way are they less than 45°

But, moreover, they are mainly a single slab, which would instigate a massive slide to the bottom.

Slightly off topic but say you go scrambling with just a rope and a couple of slings and want to avoid carrying harnesses. What's the best technique for tying directly to the rope - a bowline or is there a knot for creating waist and leg loops I should know about? Obviously if you're gonna be doing a lot of roped scrambling you want to be wearing a harness...

In reply to Al Urker:

I think my point was that your suggestions is pretty susceptible to a simplistic interpretation. I very much doubt that there is any hard and fast way to characterise a [general sense] climb, beyond the one that tends to differentiate hill-walking from scrambling, i.e. having to use your hands as well some of the time. Maybe a [specific sense] climb is when you have to use your hands all of the time [or at least most of it]?

In reply to Dux:

You don't need a harness at all for scrambling, as you will never end up in free space if you fall off. Just a straight tie in with a bowline will suffice. If you really need leg loops as well as a waist tie, you can use a triple bowline, but its quite cumbersome to adjust.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
"as you will never end up in free space if you fall off"

While true that'll you'll end up on solid ground, I can think of several Scottish scrambles where you might be in free fall for a bit first !

I don't think you can come up with a simple definition of the difference between a scramble & a rockclimb, I've treated some 'easy routes' as scrambles in the past (things like N Buttress on the Buchaille in summer conditions)- if there is a difference, its more one of attitude, of how you approach it, etc

In reply to Al Urker:

like Crib Goch then?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Cneifion Arete?
Cwfwry (or whetever) Arete on Cader Idris?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Only the first pitch of the Cneifion Arete is very steep (and really a rockclimbing pitch); the rest is not nearly as steep as Clach Glas.

I haven't done the Cwfrwy Arete, but I thought that was a climb rather than a scramble. Isn't about v diff or even severe?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: What do you think of A'Chir? If you fell off the crux, where your weight is on your arms for a few moves (downclimbing to the big ledge) I think you would be lucky not to take a big fall. I suppose defining a scramble is partly subjective but personally I think its more serious than any "scramble" in Scotland outside Skye. Great day out though.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

That's the bit I was thinking of


I think it's a Diff, but is in the scrambling guides as 3S. There's only one steep bit, but that bit's near enough vertical.
The direct start is severe IIRC.

I'd forgotten A'Chir, that's another contender (even if the steep bit is normally done in descent!)

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Got the Lochaber book sitting in the house, not done too much from it. What, in your opinion, is the problem with it?

In reply to Lewis climber:

Strange. I remember it being v pleasant, but the scrambling didn't leave much impression on me (it was back in about 1983). We certainly didn't use a rope. But I was climbing at E1 then and did it on a 'rest day' from the climbing.

In reply to Lewis climber:
What do you think of A'Chir?

Dear Lewis

A walk, as it was winter I kept my hands in my pockets because it was cold.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:
Dear Norrie
Bolt ya mad skyrocket!
LC