UKC

That's the extra cost from today to send a shipment to GB from Germany.

67% increased shipping cost

€14.50 Advance Payment Surcharge

1% higher VAT rate on the total cost .

And I doubt you've even got your blue passport yet...

Just do we're clear. That's not a dig at you. That's a pop at all the idiots who thought this was a good idea!

 How much of that is COVID related?

None, it's moving the UK out of the EU pricing structure and into the one used for Switzerland.

A friend posted earlier today on his Facebook that yesterday, a business class air fare Manchester-Singapore was £1000, and a business class air fare Amsterdam-Singapore was also £1000 (I will assume that there is a flight connection in Amsterdam). Today, Amsterdam-Singapore is still £1000 but Manchester-Singapore is £2000...

Anybody who follows airfares at the moment will uu derstand the impact of COVID on ticket prices.I have see  airfares for the same route vary from £800 to £4200. Unfortunately there is a shortage of flights and I would guess that this is the main reason.

And what’s the value of the shipment?

Why on earth would the impact of covid on air fares and shipping costs only suddenly became apparent at the exact moment the transition period with the EU ends? 

What major change was there in the covid situation at 11pm yesterday that would make it a more likely explanation of a drastic rise in international transit costs than the transition period ending?

A pal of mine flies to China twice a year to visit his wife. Typically books the flights months in advance and checks the prices every day for weeks until they hit the point he is happy with. There are massive fluctuations way bigger than the 100% increase you posted about. 

Happens daily with COVID changes at the moment. Unfortunately it’s the reality and has little to do with Brexit . I get daily updates in air rates so see it all the time. Being going on for months, up and down like a yo-yo.

As an example there is only one flight in January between Budapest and Milan whereas there were daily flights .

Fair enough, that much makes sense. 

Although with regards to the OP I get the impression that jimtitt is shipping stuff pretty regularly (happy to be corrected if I’ve got that wrong, Jim) so would have probably noticed months of yo-yoing prices and not bothered posting. 

Thanks for posting. So all those ubiquitous euro-gear shops that come up in Google shopping comparisons will now be more expensive than UK based retailers again? Mixed feelings about that!

Business class fares. My heart ❤ bleeds. Not. 

Will it take any longer? 

That's for a standard 10kg packet to GB with DHL with a value under €1000. For lower weight parcels the extra shipping cost is proportionally higher. 

Yes it will need customs processing. Experience to other countries is around 6 to10 days longer but we shall see.

I do indeed, about 400 last year. International air freight is complete chaos due to the lack of passenger aircraft and closed borders, there are still places with no capacity and to most you are paying a premium anyway, to Australia for example it's limited capacity and double the normal price or it goes by ship. 

The OP has nothing to do with this though, it's just GB being moved out of the EU pricing structure and becoming a third country tariff.

Yep. My car's alternator shat itself yesterday, so having enjoyed my Christmas lights show in the dash with every warning light there is and some i didn't know existed and barely making it home wrestling a car with no PAS today i 'bought' one from an EU based seller on eBay.

An hour later seller contacts me to let me know the postage in the listing was wrong, as it was based on pre-brexit pricing and on checking today he saw it had shot through the roof and i'd have to cover that.

That he adds a bit extra to P&P to anything shipping out of the UK to cover the paperwork, etc he does at his end, and that UK VAT/duty on arrival would be on top for me to pay when i receive it, which from my experience it also carries a £10/15 'processing fee' from RM or whoever delivers here.

To top it off his courieri/postal company apparently asks people not to ship anything to the UK for the time being as the combination of the new Brexit borders and the clusterf*ck at the channel means they don't know when/if parcel will be able to make it across the border.

He was probably as relieved as me when we agreed to cancel the order.

Nothing decent in the UK worth buying, so i'm screwed as i need a car in 2 weeks time and can't afford a new alternator which retails at a cool £700+

Thanks a bunch you brexit pricks

That's meant to say "to anything shipping out of the EU". Too late to edit

Struck me a few weeks ago that it’ll be trouble getting/high prices for stuff relating to people’s hobbies that will really cause Brexit-related angst. 

What type of car are you driving that needs a £700 alternator?

Friend just told me Canyon bikes have temporarily put a hold on UK sales... wonder what the price diff will be when/if they restart?

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/rose-bikes-cancels-uk-orders-brexit/

Rose too. 

Their press release stating the reason as no trade agreement?

Also AlpineTrek. Arcteryx has highlighted temporary delays.

What question are you asking? 

One that cannot be fitted with a remanufactured alternator rebuilt with cheap chinese components (they go for around £200 provided you send your old alternator in exchange) because it sits directly underneath the fuel filter and they love to catch fire when fitted with those.

A mug 😁🥴😁

I'd be checking any costs, there will be chancers milking the changes for every last brass farthing in your pockets.

And Patagonia.

The link you posted had a press release/statement giving the reason for Rose not trading as the non existence of a trade agreement which seemed a bit odd to me.

Does this car have a name?

As in a manufacturer’s name and not as in Julie which my wife’s car is called.

FWIW I think you have every right to not answer the needlessly judgemental, patronising and insulting questions about the price of your alternator. 

I see from your profile you are in London.

I don't know where abouts but there's a very good place in Tolworth. Proper old fashioned shop that does rewinds in about a day for around 70 quid. There may be something similar near you rather than buying new.

A lot of modern cars now have smart alternator's that require them to be celebrated by the ECU.        I can't just fit a new battery on my VRS without going into the ECU ect

Ah - number 3(a) from the right wingers cookbook - deflection.  If you can't attack the argument, pretend it's really about something else.  In this case it's not really the major inconvenience and cost of Brexit, but about the poster's choice of vehicle.  Pathetic.  And don't whine on about how you were simply "asking a question" - you weren't.  You were adopting your normal passive aggressive stance.  I'd have at least some respect for you if you actually grew a pair and came out and directly said what's it's clear you meant.  But you can't, so equally pathetic.

An extra £10 or £15 for some extra paperwork?

Pathetic, you say? You're the pathetic mug who's being taken for a ride there.

You often don't have a choice. One of my suppliers has increased their shipping charge from a blanket £20.50 to £49.95. A 4% price increase across the board on all products and the minimum order has gone from £100 to £200.

Others that I deal with have also increased but only a fraction of that cost. 

I'm stuck paying that cost though because I have sold and look after hundreds of their machines and need access to service kits and spare parts. 

It's possible that you haven't a clue what the £10-15 charge that is levied by the carrier is for.

Or that if the business isn't used to exporting outside the customs union things get more complicated where invoicing and bookkeeping are concerned (not all software supports this) and pick-up at the door doesn't work as well as it did, with DHL you must personally take the shipment to the post office and most other carriers have stopped accepting parcels altogether (Hermes no longer ship to the UK and Ireland). For under €1000 I don't charge extra for the customs documents as I'm set up for it but for a business that isn't used to third country exports it probably isn't worth the hassle.

For over €1000 then I'll be charged €40 for the paperwork anyway which is passed on to the customer.

Saved me writing, thanks. Anything but Brexit indeed. 

To visit his wife!? 

In or out of the EU, I would vote for more localism   :  )

I don’t believe that an alternator costs anywhere near £700 unless you’re daft enough to pay main dealer prices.

However, not being an expert on vehicle parts, I could be mistaken.

So, yes I am doubting the posters claim but I’m not stupid enough to call him a liar or any other derogatory term until I have more of the facts. A position you might consider adopting.

You can call that passive aggressive but I call it being sensible.

Why don’t you respond to the point I made?

The one where your link took me to a website where a manufacturer was quoting the lack of a trade deal as the reason for curtailing their imports into the U.K.

I don't need to, Blanche DuBois did it eloquently enough. Perhaps you have your blinkers on a bit too tight around your noggin.

Care to offer any insight into the OP's plight? I know there won't be an acknowledgement that Brexit might be to blame but perhaps you could tell him where he's going wrong! 

Why would I want to tell the OP that he’s doing something wrong?

As far as I understand it he merely stated that the cost of sending a shipment to the U.K. has increased.

He might be implying that the increase is due to Brexit or I might be inferring something that he didn’t mean. But I have no reason to doubt that what he said is true.

Unlike the £700 alternator or a bike company not importing goods because the EU and U.K. don’t have a trade agreement.
 

The cost of shipping from the EU to GB increase (and the gentlemans alternator woes) are a consequence of leaving the European Customs Union which is part of Brexit and failing to negotiate a replacement agreement.

And a minutes research will tell you an original fitment alternator for an upper-mid class car can easily cost over a grand.

It's Brexit - "it's moving the UK out of the EU pricing structure" - rtfm. 

Rose are not exporting to the UK because of Brexit. They will review the situation soon. This is stated on their website.

Unlike Canyon (the other big European direct sales model), Rose don't have the market share and it might not be viable (Rose's cachet isn't the same as Canyon, who sponsor at least one major tour team). 

Thanks for that.

So how does a shipping company justify a 67% increase in their costs? And what was the original cost?

What’s an advanced payment surcharge?

I understand if you can’t be bothered to reply

Edited to reply to your edit - I’m sure a manufacturer supplied part can be very expensive which is why many people don’t use one but seek out a cheaper alternative from somewhere like eBay.

I’m liking the ‘it’s Brexit’ thing.

What is this all encompassing EU pricing structure? It doesn’t sound like a good thing if it’s preventing EU exporters from going about their daily businesses.

You're the only one. The fishing industry don't seem keen on it now either. 

It was a good thing when the UK was in the EU, less so now. 

Do accept that Jim's price increases have anything to do with Brexit? Just curious. 

Maybe the manufacturer parts are better quality. Have longevity. Maintain the value of the vehicle when specced with original parts. Pre-Brexit maybe the owner had choice and is now lamenting less choice. 

I ship globally including to the EU. 

The issue at the moment is more chaotic  and  confusing because of COVID. Try getting a sea shipment through New York at the moment , delays are everywhere.Shippers are understandably whacking on surcharges everywhere. 

I get a very useful daily update from UPS showing the global position on sea , road and  airfreight . It highlights issues globally 

if you think it’s bad here, then look at air freight to Australia, it’s not exactly humming.

I would see if DHL produce such an update as it might help.

the issue at the moment is inmho more COVID than anything else . It’s a nightmare everywhere.  

I have little doubt that Brexit is the excuse for Jim’s price increases.

Or for the price of an alternator or for companies not importing bicycles.

You will have noted my use of the phrase ‘Brexit is the excuse’.

A phrase I used not because I don’t  think that Brexit is having any impact but because I don’t know how much of any price increase is down to actual increases in costs and how much is down to some businesses seeing an opportunity to make more profit.

I didn’t join this debate at its inception because I don’t really have anything to say about Jim’s OP as it’s a subject I know bugger all about although I am happy to be educated on the processes involved in exporting goods.

My initial responses were to the extremely high costs of goods bought on eBay (an alternator) and the reasons given for a company stopping the importing of bikes. Both of which I thought merited some debate.

Edited as I don't seem to be able to delete the post.

I’m not deflecting anything but I am questioning the sanity of paying £700 for an alternator.

Which I’m sure is the going rate for some alternators but certainly not the vast majority.

Which is why I asked the poster what car the alternator was for which seemed a reasonable question but led to calls of deflection and passive aggressive (what does that actually mean!) from certain posters.

Because it’s New Year and in the spirit of UKC I’m calling bollocks to the price of £700 for a new alternator until the poster provides the actual make and model of car and the website he wanted to buy it from.

And I’m standing buy to be shot down when he tells me that he’s got a 1934 Nash Healey of which only 5 were ever made and new alternators are hand made.

The accusation of being passive aggressive was probably because you appeared to be implying the poster was lying. Since you've now come out and directly confirmed that you think they are lying, "passive aggressive" seems like it was a fair comment.

So you are happy that £700 is the going rate for some alternators, and based on this you conclude that someone must be lying about the cost of their alternator being £700. Presumably based on an assumption that anything which doesn't fit your narrative must be an outright lie? 

Baron is a conservative and believes in less red tape for businesses. Yet the OP is a businessman saying Baron’s strongly preferred policy is less than business friendly. 
 

To deal with his cognitive dissonance he has launched a discussion about the price of car parts. 
 

I’ll say this: it is quite fascinating to watch. 

Jeez, you can’t win on this forum, can you!

How about, I thought that the person who posted about his £700 alternator wasn’t being completely honest.

So I asked him to provide more details in order to confirm that my doubts were justified.

But that was obviously the wrong thing to do.

I should have just come straight out and called him a liar.

Without any evidence except my initial doubts.

I thought my responses were being polite but apparently they were passive aggressive which is a term which seems to have no actual meaning but is used as an insult.

Anything that can be stated without evidence can be refuted without evidence. 

€17.99 to €29.99

Instead of a truck rolling unhindered over a border to a depot, unloading direct into the sorting system, re-loading and driving back it now has to have an international movement permit (which are limited) and go to a customs depot and unload there. Then the paperwork gets into full swing (it had already started when the parcel was dispatched as it's details had to be electronically logged into the European customs system). The parcel is also checked by customs outgoing to ensure the contents aren't on the prohibited goods list (about 1 in 20 of mine are opened for inspection).

The incoming customs then process each parcel (which is not free) and the VAT/duty calculated. The parcel cannot be released from customs until this is paid so the shipping company pay this up front and reclaim this from the recipient, to cover the administrative cost (and the risk the delivery is refused they apply the advance payment surcharge. Higher values it's different, €14.50 or 2 5% whichever is higher.

This is the simplified system, over €1000 value you need an EORI number, lease the specialised software (and do the training to get a user certificate), get a certified secure internet connection then you can get a MRN (movement registration number) which identifies the shipment. Alternatively pay someone to do all this for you. Then chuck the stuff in a corner until the outgoing customs release the shipment OR decide to inspect it, they have up to 2 weeks to do this and there is a fee payable by the exporter. I've had this done to me twice.

Then the shipping company can collect all the parcels and transport them to their depot for sorting and delivery.

There's nothing new about this, nor any element of "gouging". It's always been like this to third countries and identical to sending to Switzerland, Norway or wherever. Everyone knew it was coming and warned the government and the public, now you've got it.

You have misread this thread if you think I launched the discussion about car parts.

And it’s hardly fascinating to watch another UKC Brexit thread turn into a one person against the rest debate unless of course you define fascinating as ‘entirely predictable’.

Sounds like Project Fear! 😉 

Quite.  I’ve been involved in installing expensive pieces of kit in foreign countries for limited periods.  Finding the “right” route through the ATA carnet scheme when going beyond the EU is a bloody nightmare.  Until recently this wasn’t even for profit, just a part of international research collaborations.

Then if you need to temporarily re-import something to repair it...

I believe the only response to Baron at this point is to tell them “You won, get over it”.  The rest of us who actually do business beyond the end of our noses aren’t going to any time soon...

Thanks for taking the time to present such a detailed answer, it is much appreciated.

Has it changed your mind that Brexit might just be death by a thousand very small cuts? Isn't that the point of debate? That your view can be changed? 

My only comment is that I can get UPS  or Fed-Ex to deliver in 2/3 days from U.K. to USA or Canada with a very simple system.I appreciate that Brexit is not good and most people have no idea of shipping complexities but you are presenting an extreme worst case example.

So when I read it I just thought “ yes but do not over egg it”. You can easily get round this. 

You’ve been telling me that for years.

 Maybe you should have spent more time lobbying the EU who, while negotiating in such good faith, managed, along with the U.K., to concoct such as awkward process.

Anybody would think they didn’t want businesses to prosper.

Have I?  I rarely talk business or Brexit on here.

I’m remembering why.  It’s frustrating to see someone with a career spent spending taxpayer’s money lecturing those who are working to being foreign sales in to the country.

You won.  Get over it.  The grown ups have a lot to grumble about now, why spoil their misery?

The BBC showed a brief interview with two hauliers at Dover yesterday.

It went something like ‘What difficulties have you experienced’ and both answers were ‘none’.

Was this a typical experience of hauliers in Dover yesterday?

I don’t know as I wasn’t there. Do I trust the BBC to present a factual news report? The cynic in me thinks that the BBC didn’t get the answers that they were hoping for yesterday. Not because they are politically biased but because ‘no difficulties’ doesn’t make for an interesting news item.

On this thread we’ve got people doing business saying how difficult it is and also how relatively easy it is.

So I’m sure that Brexit will cause issues but unlike some I believe it’s far too early to give a definitive answer as to how Brexit will turn out.

As for debate, it might not always make you change your mind but it is often very informative, educational and enlightening.

Occasionally it’s fun as well.

I too send to the USA and China by Fedex, it only costs double or more. My last quote to the USA was over quadruple the DHL parcel price (and twice the value of the shipment, stainless steel is heavy and low value).

All three DHL divisions (parcel, express and freight) have updates on availability, for example DHL Parcel are showing for the Americas 11 countries no service and 18 restricted, e.g. the USA either Premium surcharge for by air or standard goes by sea with 30 days delay. 

What is ‘someone with a career spent spending taxpayer’s money’ supposed to mean?

Aren’t you a teacher?  Perhaps I’m wrong.  It’s hardly the import and export business.  Probably why your retort to reports from people doing imports and exports is to variously accusing them of making stuff up or to quota a random bloke driving a lorry.

But what would you know, eh? Neil and baron will no doubt have the answer for you. 

Hahaha. You have your head so far up your arse that you can't tell the sunny uplands from the shit that inhabits in you.

Amusing as your childish clutching at straws is, i'll spell it out for you as a public service announcement as your difficulty with reading comprehension is frankly embarrassing to witness even though everything has been explained pretty clearly in the posts above.

- Car has a smart alternator which if not replaced like for like with one from exact model/vintage/variant/trim car needs a software update and/or calibration via the car's ECU and battery management system module depending on whats fitted, with a proprietary software only main dealers have. Regardless, dealer in my area won't code the car with/for anything that isn't 100% OEM/stock. Even if they did the cost is astronomical. They charge £80 for a simple OBD readout which again, is made with proprietary software and normal OBD readers don't cut it..

- Car model/vintage/variant/trim was sold in the UK from 2009 to 2011, so not a lot of them around to find the exact one. In fact, there's not even one used alternator for it on eBay UK right now.

- There's a few in Europe, but other than the hugely increased cost the likelihood of it being delivered on time to be fitted by the time i need the car for work is 0

- There's some re-built alternators for sale, at around the +-£200 mark plus my alternator in exchange, but they are rebuilt with chinese electronics and low quality components i.e. youtube.com/watch?v=DihVUNPZJCM& These cars are known to catch fire regularly when those alternators fail so it is strongly advised not to use them.

- Alternator's manufacturer sells rebuit units, at ~£400 (plus my alternator in exchange). They are French and has reconditioning facilities in Germany. Guess what the issue is with that?

- Direct from the dealers they are £700+

I would like to be able to pretend i give as much as a flying f*ck if you believe me or not but frankly, the level of contempt i hold for people such as you beats even my best acting skills.

But please do go on, my popcorn is almost ready

Makes us better prepared for every other deal we're going to have to embark on. 

Why should the EU care about deals struck with countries outside of the EU (us in this case)? Surely their sole responsibility is to get the best deal for the EU. 

It appears that many firms are holding back on deliveries until things settle, so as you say it's too early to see how Brexit will turn out in that regard. But it's clear that there will be a number of negative impacts simply because of changes in rules and systems. The Daily Mail has highlighted some of them here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9100275/From-work-pensions-passpor...

I have to say that I can't see many ways in which Brexit has made things better here...

I’m taking your ‘spending taxpayer’s money’ as an insult to me, all other teachers and anyone else employed by the government.

Maybe you’d like to insult the unemployed and those in receipt of benefits too?

Maybe you’d like to post your CV as an example of what I should have done to contribute to society without spending taxpayer’s money?

Here’s mine -

Cammell Laird, shipbuilder.

Army.

Youth Worker.

Teacher.

Retired.

So, yes, almost my whole working life has been spent spending taxpayer’s money. I apologise for not doing something more useful with my life.

Blimey! You must be having a bad morning! 

So you don’t have a 1935 Nash Healey?

Thanks, good to know. I'll be doing some phone calls around Monday, but the issue is not so much the winding but things like the voltage regulator/rectifier, correct clutch pulleys, etc.

Got a friend in Europe coming to the UK next week, so getting her to courier one in is looking like the most promising avenue now.

Thanks

It probably wasn't the most tactful way of putting it but I assumed Wintertree's point was that your expertise was not in relevant areas, not a judgement as to the usefulness of your life.

Thanks for trying to defend him, that’s a very decent thing to do.

However, I’m not letting him off the hook on this one.

I'm not sure if wintertree's comment was a full on snark, or had a less inflammatory meaning. I read it as unless you are directly involved with import/export then there will no doubt be intricacies not evident to the lay-person. 

I do not understand why 1 in 20 parcels are being opened and checked..

I ship dual use items which theory have to be open and checked every time. But if you speak to the compliance team at the shippers ( DHL have a good team) you can easily get this stopped by filling in various forms so that their compliance team knows you and your product..

Don’t disagree with you.

However, there’s people posting on this thread about the negative effects on EU exports into the U.K. It appears that the deal negotiated in good faith isn’t doing either side any favours.

I use the word side in a non confrontational way.

To be fair you made a comment upthread about calling bollocks on the reliability of Mr. Lopez's claim. Getting all ruffled when someone has a pop back is a bit rich. Especially from an ex-squaddie, ship builder! 😉 

And I would have had no reason to take issue if that had been what he said as it would be a true statement, as I’ve previously stated in this thread I know bugger all about the import/export business.

And it’s why I asked him to clarify what he actually meant.

Until he does I’m fuelling up the outrage bus.

It's almost like there was no point in leaving... 

It's OK. I'm not taking sides. 

I wouldn't. Isn't fuel expected to get dearer? Might want to cache some of it. 

It just illustrates the complexities of shipping.

I disagree with Jim’s view, even though I am a remainer.I do consider COVID is having a bigger impact on shipping .

Besides Jim does not mention a positive at the moment.The £ has increased in value making it more attractive  to import into the uk.

for me as an exporter I would prefer the £ to collapse again.

international trade is never easy whether in the eu or not.

I’m actually very sensitive.  😀 But don’t tell anyone.

Siphoning, did I forget to mention I’m from Merseyside?  

Covid impact is surely time/delivery related? 

Maybe the extra costs involved with the hoik in sending has negated any positive? 

I'm sure it's not. 

Even more to dislike! *😂

* Please note the use of the smiley face. It means my actual prejudice is hidden behind a veil of 'just kidding'. **☺ 

** See, I did it again! 

Yes.  I’ve taught in one capacity or another for 18 years, partially at taxpayer’s expense.  I have a child in primary education.  I’d have to be a special kind of fool not to appreciate the utmost importance of teachers and teaching.  I was not in any way suggesting anything negative about Baron’s vocation or contribution.

I’d also have to be a fool to think my teaching experience in any way prepared me to understand the complexities of selling, importing and exporting globally.  

I don't have a "view".

The increased cost of shipping to GB from the EU is a direct consequence of Brexit and has absolutely no connection with Covid and other international shipping.

Please see my reply (above) to another poster.  I’ve 18 years of teaching experience, partially at taxpayer’s expense.  So if I insulted you, I’m insulting myself too...

😀

Yeah, right. Excuse me if I’m not convinced.

Especially coming from someone who prides himself on his exactness.

You’re excused.  I’d suggest reading what I wrote and not reading stuff I didn’t say in to it.  Unless of course I’m sagging myself off too...

Deflecting?

Really ?   "Get over it.  The grown ups have a lot to grumble about now"

Why are you being so coy about a year and model of a car? Just spit it out. 

Nothing wrong with people being asked to show their working on here, I can't see why anyone would get so offended.

Oh no, that part was meant entirely as I think Baron read it...   Assuming other posters are liars and quoting a lorry driver vs experience of people actually doing exports to the UK etc comes across a rather churlish attempt to dig in to their position over the views or people actually affected directly by the recent changes.  

It is too early to really tell when COVID screws up any shippers costs at the moment.in my view the French requirement for testing on lorry drivers will have a far bigger impact on any shipping costings than Brexit.That particular issue and its ramifications have yet to really work its way through the system.

Anyway what are you going to do in couple of years time about the new U.K. safety standards which will diverge from CE standards.That I would suggest is a bigger issue as an importer.

The whole thing is a right mess and I can see no benefits from a trading perspective.

In a view years time I reckon we will be back cap in hand so to speak.

Fundamentally nothing, either any differences will be minimal or I stop selling to GB and customers can smuggle them in through N Ireland.

So as well as insulting people working in the public sector now you are starting on international lorry drivers. Who obviously aren’t affected by Brexit.

I did not.

No.  I’m suggesting a lorry driver is not likely to be very knowledgable on the customers and shipping paperwork filed by someone exporting from the EU to the UK.   For example I’m preparing a large piece of equipment to travel by lorry, plane and van to somewhere beyond the UK.  I’m learning about the paperwork.  I’m not going to ask a lorry driver or a jet pilot about the export paperwork or the costs, any more than they’re going to ask me about doing their job.

That the significant difference has apparently apparently passed you buy doesn’t speak well to your ability to contribute.   Not as badly as your random suggestion I’ve just insulted lorry drivers - which I clearly haven’t.

I'm not sure you understand how 'buying things' works? 

I used lorry drivers in one of my previous posts to illustrate how it was difficult to get a clear picture as to how well things were or weren’t progressing with Brexit.

You then attempted to use that as an example of them not having as much of an idea about importing/exporting as you. Which is obvious and wasn’t anywhere the point that I was making.

You were actually trying to discredit me or was it just calling me churlish?

You cannot bring yourself to apologise for insulting me, my previous profession and other public workers. In fact, you cannot even admit that you insulted us in the first place. Instead you say that I misunderstood you. I’ve read what you said multiple times and can see only one reason for you to include what you said in the context that you said it.

You are beneath contemptible.

I’ve immense respect for teachers - having taught young adults for 18 years up with partly public sector funding I’m under no illusions about how badly I’d do teaching children in a school setting.  I immensely value the effort the teacher & TAs put in for Jr.  I have friends who colleagues who teach - who doesn’t.

I don’t think that a career funded from the state purse conveys any insight into the complexity of importing, exporting and selling globally.  It certainly didn’t prepare me.  

I am happy to apologise for upsetting you - I am sorry.  You do seem to upset easily yet you are one of the posters on this thread with the least skin in the game when it comes to international trade.  You might understand that some other people out there are justifiably very upset at how much harder their lives just got, and that they’re not going to sugar coat their views.

Public sector worker here who sees zero offence in the implication that my career in healthcare has not provided me with a detailed knowledge of importing exporting.

Please don’t worry about speaking for the entire public sector. I can speak for myself if I feel offended. 

The problem with Baron's Big Cry is that it stops us asking him reasonable questions like:

What do you think the effect of all these new rules will be on the British economy?

Do you feel a failure having voted to burden business in this way?

What are the advantages of Brexit that we're going to enjoy and that make this shit worth the trouble?

Now pull yourself together Baron, dry your eyes and try answering some real questions.

Thank you for your apology.

I admitted in my post at 09.51 today that I knew bugger all about the import/export business and that is why I didn’t reply to the OP.

I can only imagine how angry you are as quite rightly I have little skin in and no direct experience of the international trade game.

I’m easily upset when some people feel the need to resort to unnecessary insults in order to make their point - have a re-read of this thread and see how quickly it degenerated into a typical UKC insult fest. I don’t expect or want people to sugar coat their views but surely it’s possible to make one’s post without insults.This last bit isn’t aimed just or evenly mainly at you, there are numerous posters on this thread and others who seem to revel on insulting anyone who offers a different opinion.

You shouldn’t be insulted by that implication.

You should be by the implication that your career revolves around simply spending taxpayer’s money.

I don’t know much about healthcare but there’s a saying that goes - ‘teaching, the job where you steal things from home to take to work’. I reserve the right to be insulted on behalf of my ex colleagues who are working right now to deal with the Covid situation and so don’t have the time to post on Internet forums.

And along comes another person who cannot help himself when it comes to insults.

Your addition of the word “simply” reframes the whole comment in a way that is quite misleading.  I’m going to charitably assume this is your bias and how you read it, and not deliberate.  

There’s nothing simple about teaching or healthcare and both are or paramount importance.  Without one I wouldn’t be able to do what I do, and without the other I’d have have problems both personal and professional.

The implication was that a job that doesn’t manufacture, export or import and that is funded by the taxpayer confers 0.0 clues about the difficulties of selling, importing and exporting globally. 

Fairly mild insults. You are exactly the kind of teacher I would have enjoyed trying to destroy when I was an obnoxious teenager! (And yes, the child is father of the man.)

Anyhow, back to things more serious than your easily tousled ego.

What do you think the effect of all these new rules will be on the British economy?

Do you feel a failure having voted to burden business in this way?

What are the advantages of Brexit that we're going to enjoy and that make this shit worth the trouble?

I guess it's good that you keep coming back to defend/define your (usually Brexit) stance. It's probably fair comment that you cop some flak (fairly or unfairly), as are you capable of being, let's call it robust!

Your 'style' does have all the characteristics of Sealioning though (Google it), whether that's your intention or not. It doesn't always feel like debate is what you want, more like a scrap. Do with that what you want. I might be way off the mark. 

Am I correct in saying that in previous posts you've admitted to being pretty impervious to any (potential) Brexit negatives? If I am, then it certainly colours my reception of your viewpoint and not in a good way I'm sorry to say. It often comes across as 'I'm all right' and if anyone is having problems, whether it's getting spare parts from Europe or the like, then the problem cannot possibly be Brexit but the person must be doing something wrong.

You'll probably reply by saying that you've acknowledged Brexit is a negative for Jim in this particular instance. But that's in keeping with the reasonableness of Sealioning. 

Consider Brexit as payback for you being a little shit at school. And for being a bigger shit as an adult.

You don’t need to thank me, I didn’t make Brexit happen on my own!

I didn’t interpret it that way, but then it wasn’t directed at me and I can see how it could be. 

That translates pretty well to healthcare for sure.

A wonderfully bizarre comment. What’s covid or workload got to do with wintertree’s alleged insults? Or are you just using covid to try to shame people and shut down any perceived critique of teachers as somehow immoral? On second thoughts I quite like that - covid has also increased my workload so presumably I’m beyond question on any subject as well.

But I’ll reserve the right to be offended by the implication that since I am on the internet I don’t work hard enough and can’t be involved in anything productive in relation to the “covid situation”. 

Sealioning. I like it

Haven't you got a Tik-Tok video to film!? 😂 

(Tongue way over in the cheek area. I said the above to my NHS clinical missus and only just avoided a slap in the bollox. Keep up the good work). 

Sealioning eh? Who comes up with these things?

I don’t know if I fit the description of a sea lion, that’s for others to judge.

I’ve also recently been described as cruel based upon people’s opinions of my posts.

Again that’s for others to judge.

I generally try have my posts reflect my genuine opinions and views  but sometimes there’s an element of elaboration, playing the devils advocate or me simply being wrong. Sometimes my posts are poorly worded and don’t accurately reflect what I’m trying to say.  Occasionally I’ll allow myself to become wound up by someone and my posts will be unacceptable. Other times my opinions are just different to the majority of posters on this forum especially concerning Brexit.

Does all that sound like sealioning?

It's good innit! 

You have the right to be offended as you feel fit.

If I’ve offended you I’ll apologise.

Now I can add Tik Tok to the new words that I’ve learned today.

Someone on the Internet. Isn't it always! They're probably young... 

Don't know, I'm not the Sealion adjudicator! Like I say, what do I know?

And vice versa through Eire.I think Eire will be the new unintentional way of bypassing the rules.and no doubt they will make money out of it.

Oh do grow up. I'm surprised you haven't worked out that people like you are easy to wind up because they will respond to every slight, effectively handing control of their actions to anyone who wants to pull their chain.

I may have been a little shit at school but at least I learnt to express myself well. As a teacher you should be ashamed writing the above.

And the questions are avoided, once again. It's almost like you can't answer them, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and try a third time:

What do you think the effect of all these new rules will be on the British economy?

Do you feel a failure having voted to burden business in this way?

What are the advantages of Brexit that we're going to enjoy and that make this shit worth the trouble?

I used to get paid a shed load of money to deal with people like you and even then it used to annoy the hell out of me.

Don’t expect me to engage with you for free!

And a fourth go:

What do you think the effect of all these new rules will be on the British economy?

Do you feel a failure having voted to burden business in this way?

What are the advantages of Brexit that we're going to enjoy and that make this shit worth the trouble?

I think you don't need to worry about that. In the minds of most people reading your posts they are probably struggling to get past "bell end", "absolute end of the bell" or some other metaphor comparing you to a penis. 

Is that you, Paxman?

in what region are you?

why were you calling out local people sledging at Kirkstone?

I’d expect a better class of insult from a teacher.

Merseyside 

As has been claimed.  Baron does not export goods to the EU.

I do.  My latest delivery of product has reached PostNL and is lost somewhere in their own system.  Blame Christmas, covid, but certainly nothing to do with brexit

So, I can give answers to your questions.

I don't think the economy will suffer much or be burdened by the new rules.

To me a rising pound is only an advantage, and is what I am expecting from now.

The future looks good.

Thanks for bothering to reply.

You don't think the economy will be burdened much, yet economists think we're going to grow less than we would otherwise. What have they got wrong? (Try to be exact, no points for saying "but they didn't see the crash coming did they?" as that is moronic.)

Did I call them out ( god I hate that term)?

Or did I just mention that it was very busy?

I honestly cannot remember?

What thread was it in?

edited to add - Sorry, found the thread.

I didn’t call them out but simply commented on how many people there were followed by a sarcastic comment about tier 2. 

I'd expect more self-awareness, empathy and humanity from a teacher...

I just wrote that but then realised how silly it was.  We are all just people, mate, you, me, the people I agree with, the people you agree with, the people we both disagree with, whatever.  

This place needs a bit more love.  I love you, dude, even though we don't get along on a forum post about a single issue. 

Mind you, I stand by my point about you not needing to worry about sealions...

Much better.

I was really good at school though? 

You remember the unfair bit where the teacher punished the whole class for one person’s misdemeanour?

You should have posted it yesterday 

That's specifically banned in our behaviour policy now!

Good. It always led to a huge amount of resentment.

As does refusing to answer a few simple questions about Brexit.

Buy British then. Simples 

I think it's possible you haven't figured out where Jim lives....

I'm in the market for an affordable family car, should I get the Nissan or the Vauxhall?

Had a family friend, in farming, used to drive round putting up 'Buy British' signs all over the place. Then get back in his Toyota 4x4 and drive off. Class.

Where's my popcorn maker?!?!

I'm not sure 90% of people who work in the private sector are experts either. If he was an divorce lawyer you'd also be right, not sure what his status of 'spending tax payers money' has to do with it. If you didn't know he was a teacher he could have been a economics professor, a civil servant working on international trade, a diplomat or a trade negotiator. 

I don't work in the public sector but drives me mad the sorts of people who tell teachers and nurses that they 'pay their wages'. You're a man of reason so clearly you don't believe the line between knowing something or not is a matter of whether your profession is funded by general taxation or not. 

No, but a lot more people in the private sector will be than the public I think.

Those were Baron's' words, not mine.

You are right - but I did know he was a teacher, and I didn't say "teacher" because I think it would have been accused of denigrating the profession - much as I was over lorry drivers against all reason, and despite me having said many times before that I have taught for a long time.

I do.  Next time I'll just point out to Baron that being a school teacher doesn't exactly give him much experience in the things he's weighing in on that are causing others grief; then have a 20 message exchange where I point out that I'm not insulting or putting down school teachers, any more than I'd expect a person cursed with doing carnet paperwork to be capable in a classroom...

Sure, I'd assume so, but perhaps it's 0.1% rather than 0.001%. Jim is clearly an expert and Baron is not, nothing wrong with saying that. I don't really think about the public / private distinction, rather I think about the fact that one sends numerous packages all over the world as part of his business. 

These are your words:

"It’s frustrating to see someone with a career spent spending taxpayer’s money lecturing those who are working to being foreign sales in to the country."

Perhaps you were harsher than you recall? 

I work in the private sector and several people have been told I am an expert, although not by me. Despite having a qualification in shipping dangerous goods I haven't got a bloody clue what is going on and am dreading going back into the office to find out that no one else has either. If I post anything on here about shipping pharmaceuticals on Monday it is a cry for help!

Brexit was a brilliant* 'big picture' idea based on a total lack of appreciation that the global economy works on details. 

*YMMV, I certainly didn't vote for it.

Pity you don't apply the same standards to the leader of the Conservative party where the consequences for us from his (lack of) relationship with truth are significantly more serious than this chap's alternator. 

I too don't import or export goods but if the EU starts making imports more hassle than they are worth then it sounds to me like a great opportunity for British manufacturers to start up and meet the demand themselves. 

You’ll find enough of my posts where I’ve given my opinion of Johnson if you can be bothered looking.

Why invest in a facility which has a market of 60m people when you can invest in a market of 450m right next door? 
 

Also please tell me which are the best English red wines. 

It's NOT the EU "making it difficult" WE did it to ourselves.

Beat me to it. 

Because you've got a captive market. If all of a sudden your European competition is expensive and slow to deliver what once might have been unviable may now be worthwhile. Or simply existing UK suppliers might start seeing an increase in orders as they are suddenly more competitive.

But there’s an opportunity cost to investing in a far smaller market, ie the firm can’t grow as big. How to overcome that problem? Charge more to make up for the loss. What you’re essentially arguing for is less range of more expensive goods. 
 

You’ll always butt up against the problem that trade is good and makes us better off, because otherwise why would we go to the hassle. Doing less trade is therefore automatically going to make us less well off. 

Apart from the obvious that it isn't the EU that's doing anything it works both ways. I looked at buying something from the UK this morning from a world leading manufacturer who at a guess export 70% or more of their production. Guess what, they can't deliver direct any more and through a seller in the UK there is an export surcharge of £14.35. So my money has gone to an Italian company.

The UK can't survive with an isolationist economy.

A very much smaller captive market of what are very often niche products. 

Unlikely to be more competitive in a one horse town. As a consumer that sounds like less choice and more expensive. 

Perhaps you should tell British made Brooks saddles about the great opportunities brexit provides.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2021/01/02/brexit-halts-sales-of-b...

What you suggest is unrealistic. Maybe applies to China. A marginal increase in shipping cost is hardly a big issue in European and U.K. terms. 

You sound disturbingly proud of it. Do the rest of your classes reminisce happily about these entertainments at school reunions? As a secondary head I lost count of the number of teenage boys who thought they were hard only to finish up crying in my office.

I've never been to a school reunion. Or perhaps I've never been invited I never thought I was hard, actually was (am) super geeky but just a gobshite. I found plenty of teachers were unremittingly awful - for example the games teacher who always "checked" we were using the showers and allowed rampant bullying in his class. And definitely the one who lobbied against me winning a scholarship to university because my parents were divorced. I am indeed proud of my efforts to make those men's working lives that little bit shitter.

Obviously there were a couple of really great teachers, and I'm well aware education isn't what it was. But rather than seeing someone like me as "disturbing" - oh you Nurse Ratchet you - surely this kind of attitude should be seen as an indictment of past iterations of the education system? Though having just looked on Twitter to see teachers saying their schools require open windows for covid but don't allow the kids to wear extra layers, the dumbass authoritarian streak of the teaching profession does seem to have some life left in it.

Where do you propose we buy all the raw materials from? And where is this Mary Poppins' bag-market we seem suddenly to have discovered. 

Well £15 billion according to HMRC, obviously hitting small traders disproportionally hard.

One geeky gobshite's unfortunate experiences can hardly stand as an indictment of whole past education systems. Anyway, I'm sure you'd have done fine in my school after a tearful heart-to-heart or two in my office.

This is weird.

I strongly suspect if such blantant - and well known - abuses were tolerated then it points to some kind of systemic issues. Or perhaps all was rosy in the world of 1980s education and it was high performing, humane and caring.

By the way your last comment is a little patronising, you seem to forget you’re talking to a fellow adult. I’m sure you’re a really decent bloke and were a good teacher (just as I’m sure Baron was as brittle and easily riled in the classroom as he is on here) but you overstepped the mark with that comment - you have no idea of how well or otherwise I did at school. 

I think other kids wreak more harm than teachers do. mostly.

And you have no idea about anyone else in real life but that doesn’t stop you making  judgments and passing derogatory comments about others.

While I might be brittle and easily riled on UKC I doubt that I would have survived as long as I did as Head of Key Stage 4 if that had been my true persona.

And I’m fairly sure that Mr Clarke has not overstepped the mark.

From your comments about being "proud" of making some teachers' lives "shit" it seems reasonable to assume that school was not an entirely enjoyable experience for you. You don't seem to feel any regret about the disruptive and unfair effect your efforts to "destroy" certain teachers would have had on the education of your classmates. (I am assuming these efforts took place mainly during lessons.) My last comment concerns transforming the overall experience of school and has nothing to do with whatever academic results you may have achieved. It is based on my experience of intense personal engagement with many dozens of students who went on to enjoy and be proud of their school. (Edit: but it was a bit mischievous.)

Absolutely none whatsoever. To suggest I should looks awfully like blaming children (as I was then) for the failures of the adults around them. And looking back at what I know of UK social history of that period, there was an awful lot of failure of children by adults at that time (possibly worth a thread in itself - I'm sure as someone in the generation above me you can imagine what I'm talking about). I should point out that I respected some of my teachers. But I did think plenty of them were idiots and was quite happy to let them know it. Edit: and in case it isn't clear, the ones whose lives I'm proud of making shit were truly vile individuals!

Anyhow this is supposed to be a Brexit thread. Can we go back to talking about non-tarriff barriers or Brexit's effects on services? I'd much rather read about what a f*ck up the Leave fools have given us to solve.

My pleasure (having survived British schooling in the 50's and 60's). The 15 billion extra cost for import/ export for the UK of Brexit works out at £ 288,461,538 per week not including any loss in trade. Wasn't there something about £350 million a week for the NHS a few years ago?

2300Z on the 31st, I watched stuff on my ebay watch list go up by up to 20%. Delete, delete, delete. 

Brexiteers, you are shower of absolute Cv^75.  You will never be forgiven. 

The £15 billion cost is not direct shipping costs( otherwise the likes of DHL. Post Office  etc would be rubbing their hands with glee at the though of an extra £15 billion going to them).It includes  indirect costs such as admin time etc.

And you missed out a number, HMRC is UK costs only. Does not cover EU costs which will be higher again. So your costs in Germany are not factored in to HMRC calculations.

What does the equivalent of HMRC in Germany say it will costs traders like you.

Meanwhile the £ stengthens in value, so the direct cost to you maybe neutral.

My dissapointment for the day, trying to send some beer over to Northern Ireland (Derry) as a present but alas, can't do that any more either

The 15bn is the direct costs for companies to produce the customs documents, other additional costs such as employing someone to do the work, transport delays, bonded wharehousing etc are not included.

We miss nothing, the 15bn is for both sides of the channel. Who in the end bears the costs has yet to be seen but I (and HMRC) are guessing it will be UK business.

The pound may have risen from it's nadir of 1.06 but 1.11 compared with 1.35 pre-Brexit isn't much to be pleased about, since all my pricing is f.o.b and in Euros it doesn't make any difference anyway.

Count your chickens that the £ has not collapsed below 1.06. Your UK customers will be happy at the increase as thery can buy more from you..........

Possibly..........

Someone with £500 to spend before the referendum would have received €657 worth of goods. Now they are finally in the sunlit uplands it would be €453,87 worth so 31% less.

I have long moved on from that position. Its like wanting $4 to the £.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55530721

EU companies not exporting to UK re: VAT/HMRC rules post Brexit. 

Now you are going back a bit! My first dealings with the US $ it was was1 cent to the penny!

Yep, HMRC is probably so overwhelmed by modern internet- based commerce they expect overseas companies to collect VAT for them. My accountants have already warned me not to accept low-value orders from the UK but more details aren't really available.