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Those of you who mountain bike or walk over Houdkirk Moor will no doubt have noticed the damage being caused by 4x4's. I'm not referring to the damage on Houndkirk Road itself, which is pretty bad, but to the surrounding moorland. There are a number of areas where illegal 4x4 use has caused severe damage to what is a SSSI and the authorities seem powerless to stop it.
If you feel strongly about this vandalism, make your feelings known to Sheffield City Council by emailing [email protected].
Or phone the police on 0114 220 2020 if you've actually seen 4x4's driving on the moor.
It's also worth making your feelings known to the Peak District national Park Authority on 01629 816200.
Cheers
John H
If you feel strongly about this vandalism, make your feelings known to Sheffield City Council by emailing [email protected].
Or phone the police on 0114 220 2020 if you've actually seen 4x4's driving on the moor.
It's also worth making your feelings known to the Peak District national Park Authority on 01629 816200.
Cheers
John H
In reply to john horscroft:
Done it several times they were not interested.
> Or phone the police on 0114 220 2020 if you've actually seen 4x4's driving on the moor.
Done it several times they were not interested.
In reply to john horscroft:
Who is Micheal Howson before we all email him John? He might be the toilet attendant for all I know...
;0)
Who is Micheal Howson before we all email him John? He might be the toilet attendant for all I know...
;0)
In reply to Bingly Bong: PS - from UKB: He's Principle Rights of Way Officer at Sheffield CC
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=10540.0
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=10540.0
In reply to Bingly Bong:
err, yer (why is everyone talking like Bob Marley all of a sudden?!)
;0P
> (In reply to Simon)
>
> With an email address?
>
> Dem posh council toilet facilities
>
> With an email address?
>
> Dem posh council toilet facilities
err, yer (why is everyone talking like Bob Marley all of a sudden?!)
;0P
In reply to Bingly Bong:
Check dis:
(I can do it too see! ;0)
Response received from Sheffield CC as follows:
"Thanks for your e-mail. For the sake of clarity you've got the roles of myself and Mick Hanson in reverse. Mick represents the Council as Highway authority and is therefore the one you need to contact in respect of the condition of Houndkirk Road. I represent the Council's interest as landowner of Houndkirk, Burbage, Hathersage and Hallam Moors.
In respect of your specific concerns, we at Sheffield City Council very much share your concern over the damage caused to the moorland by the illegal off-roading, especially around the Houndkirk summit area and are doing what we can to stop it and repair the damage. We are in discussion with the National Park and Natural England representitives to draw up a plan of repairs, by landscaping, fencing and revegetation of the damaged ground. Furthermore, through contacts with the police and motor vehicle user groups we're looking to prevent any further illegal use of the area. Your help in reporting to South Yorks police any vehicles you see on the moor would be very helpful... Call 0114 2 20 20 20 to report any non-emergency incidents.
Let me know if I can offer further explanantion or clarification.
David Howarth
Corporate Property Division"
So is it David's email we need?
cheers
Si
Check dis:
(I can do it too see! ;0)
Response received from Sheffield CC as follows:
"Thanks for your e-mail. For the sake of clarity you've got the roles of myself and Mick Hanson in reverse. Mick represents the Council as Highway authority and is therefore the one you need to contact in respect of the condition of Houndkirk Road. I represent the Council's interest as landowner of Houndkirk, Burbage, Hathersage and Hallam Moors.
In respect of your specific concerns, we at Sheffield City Council very much share your concern over the damage caused to the moorland by the illegal off-roading, especially around the Houndkirk summit area and are doing what we can to stop it and repair the damage. We are in discussion with the National Park and Natural England representitives to draw up a plan of repairs, by landscaping, fencing and revegetation of the damaged ground. Furthermore, through contacts with the police and motor vehicle user groups we're looking to prevent any further illegal use of the area. Your help in reporting to South Yorks police any vehicles you see on the moor would be very helpful... Call 0114 2 20 20 20 to report any non-emergency incidents.
Let me know if I can offer further explanantion or clarification.
David Howarth
Corporate Property Division"
So is it David's email we need?
cheers
Si
In reply to Simon: Yeah, I carried on reading and saw that!
Nay mind, least the link did have the correct roles identified eventually!
Nay mind, least the link did have the correct roles identified eventually!
In reply to Bingly Bong:
[email protected]
Maybe?
Mr Horseloft where are you?
;0)
> (In reply to Simon) Yeah, I carried on reading and saw that!
>
> Nay mind, least the link did have the correct roles identified eventually!
>
> Nay mind, least the link did have the correct roles identified eventually!
[email protected]
Maybe?
Mr Horseloft where are you?
;0)
In reply to john horscroft:
I'll drop an email once the address is clarified. The heavy damage to the path between Houndkirk road and Burbage is making it much harder to follow and forcing people off it and onto the surrounding heather, which will in turn cause further erosion.
I'll drop an email once the address is clarified. The heavy damage to the path between Houndkirk road and Burbage is making it much harder to follow and forcing people off it and onto the surrounding heather, which will in turn cause further erosion.
In reply to Simon:
Hi Si,
Oooops, my mistake! David Howarth is indeed the chap we need to contact. He's head of property services for SCC and the damage to Houndkirk is his responsibility. He seems to respond fairly quickly and is organising a meeting of interested parties.
Michael Howson is the Rights of Way officer, so it doesn't do any harm cc'ing him as he needs to do something about the fact that 4x4's are destroying the road!
I've tried phoning the police and they've politely taken down details but that's about it. If more people phone though, they'll have to take note. There was a joint initiative between the PDNPA/Derbyshire police recently, so it's worth rattling the National Park's cage too.
Thanks for all the feedback. Just think, if climbers or mountainbikers or walkers were causing this damage, there'd be hell to pay.
cheers
jh
Hi Si,
Oooops, my mistake! David Howarth is indeed the chap we need to contact. He's head of property services for SCC and the damage to Houndkirk is his responsibility. He seems to respond fairly quickly and is organising a meeting of interested parties.
Michael Howson is the Rights of Way officer, so it doesn't do any harm cc'ing him as he needs to do something about the fact that 4x4's are destroying the road!
I've tried phoning the police and they've politely taken down details but that's about it. If more people phone though, they'll have to take note. There was a joint initiative between the PDNPA/Derbyshire police recently, so it's worth rattling the National Park's cage too.
Thanks for all the feedback. Just think, if climbers or mountainbikers or walkers were causing this damage, there'd be hell to pay.
cheers
jh
In reply to practicalcat:
Sorry for abandoning my computer! I posted and then dived off, very naughty. The damage used to be confined to the highpoint of Houndkirk, but it's now spreading, with both 4x4's and trail bikes using footpaths and bits of the moor. Very annoying, but the Peak Park, Sheffield CC and the police are all aware and if we keep the pressure up, who knows, they might do something. For the mountain bikers amongst you, there's a group called Ride The Peak who have just got going and are looking to campaign on our behalf. Check out www.ridethepeak.com.
cheers
jh
Sorry for abandoning my computer! I posted and then dived off, very naughty. The damage used to be confined to the highpoint of Houndkirk, but it's now spreading, with both 4x4's and trail bikes using footpaths and bits of the moor. Very annoying, but the Peak Park, Sheffield CC and the police are all aware and if we keep the pressure up, who knows, they might do something. For the mountain bikers amongst you, there's a group called Ride The Peak who have just got going and are looking to campaign on our behalf. Check out www.ridethepeak.com.
cheers
jh
In reply to john horscroft: possibly a model for you. Although this problem was much worse than Houndkirk, it still took a while for the police to take an interest:
http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/newsandevents/news/2008/october/06/pol...
http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/newsandevents/news/2008/october/06/pol...
In reply to john horscroft:
The police was at the sheffield of Houndkird road last weekend checking the roadwortyness of the 4X4's, Can only say "keep up the good work"
The police was at the sheffield of Houndkird road last weekend checking the roadwortyness of the 4X4's, Can only say "keep up the good work"
In reply to toad:
Funny you should bring that one up. I know the 'Mansfield desert' quite well having put out a few fires there in my time! Took them ages to get to grips with it but it shows what can be done if enough people complain.
cheers
jh
Funny you should bring that one up. I know the 'Mansfield desert' quite well having put out a few fires there in my time! Took them ages to get to grips with it but it shows what can be done if enough people complain.
cheers
jh
In reply to robert-hutton:
The police with the national Park are trying to open a 'dialogue' with 4x4 and trail bike groups. This was their opening gambit. Lets hope they stick at it.
cheers
jh
The police with the national Park are trying to open a 'dialogue' with 4x4 and trail bike groups. This was their opening gambit. Lets hope they stick at it.
cheers
jh
In reply to robert-hutton:
Think this has focussed a few minds
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7773989.stm
> (In reply to john horscroft)
> The police was at the sheffield of Houndkird road last weekend checking the roadwortyness of the 4X4's, Can only say "keep up the good work"
> The police was at the sheffield of Houndkird road last weekend checking the roadwortyness of the 4X4's, Can only say "keep up the good work"
Think this has focussed a few minds
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7773989.stm
In reply to all:
If you're interested in campaigning for better provision for mountain biking, check out:
www.ridethepeak.com
cheers
jh
If you're interested in campaigning for better provision for mountain biking, check out:
www.ridethepeak.com
cheers
jh
In reply to john horscroft:
hello old bean,hows the new bicycle ?
know that you've got 2,you should weld them together,stick a v8 in the middle,a 16 speed gearbox,fat tyres and chase them buggers down....
hello old bean,hows the new bicycle ?
know that you've got 2,you should weld them together,stick a v8 in the middle,a 16 speed gearbox,fat tyres and chase them buggers down....
In reply to john horscroft:
Hmmm, worried I may be strung up, but responsible 4x4 drivers can help to maintain existing green lanes and useable rights of way for vehicles and other users. I do not deny that they cause damage, but as with most activities (mountain biking) this can be limited if a basic set of principles are applied. I love the outdoors, peace and quiet etc etc and hate to se our environment ruined. On the other hand I do enjoy off road driving (before the onslaught I do not own one!). A balance must be reached between all users of the outdoors. Who is to say who should and should not use rights of ways?
If you see a vehicle driving in an area they should not, take the registration mark and report it to the police. A description of the driver helps. There is legislation to deal with anti social driving (referred to as section 59/60 warning). This gives police the powers to issue a warning and under certain circumstances seize the vehicle if it (or the driver) continues to drive in a similar way.
The police are serving on behalf of the public and local community, be politely awkward and ask to speak to an officer (go into the local nick) and put your point across it may do bugger all but it is harder to do nothing when spoken to in person. Engage the local neighbourhood beat manager (the local bobby), PCSO in a lot of areas they have PACT priorities (partners and communities together!) try and get of road anti social behaviour as a local priority. May be hard to get this on above drug dealers and under age drinking but it is worth a go. The local town council and regional council should be approached at open public forums.. I will shut up now.
Hmmm, worried I may be strung up, but responsible 4x4 drivers can help to maintain existing green lanes and useable rights of way for vehicles and other users. I do not deny that they cause damage, but as with most activities (mountain biking) this can be limited if a basic set of principles are applied. I love the outdoors, peace and quiet etc etc and hate to se our environment ruined. On the other hand I do enjoy off road driving (before the onslaught I do not own one!). A balance must be reached between all users of the outdoors. Who is to say who should and should not use rights of ways?
If you see a vehicle driving in an area they should not, take the registration mark and report it to the police. A description of the driver helps. There is legislation to deal with anti social driving (referred to as section 59/60 warning). This gives police the powers to issue a warning and under certain circumstances seize the vehicle if it (or the driver) continues to drive in a similar way.
The police are serving on behalf of the public and local community, be politely awkward and ask to speak to an officer (go into the local nick) and put your point across it may do bugger all but it is harder to do nothing when spoken to in person. Engage the local neighbourhood beat manager (the local bobby), PCSO in a lot of areas they have PACT priorities (partners and communities together!) try and get of road anti social behaviour as a local priority. May be hard to get this on above drug dealers and under age drinking but it is worth a go. The local town council and regional council should be approached at open public forums.. I will shut up now.
In reply to rockjedi12345:
Good point. It's worth contacting bone fide Land Rover and 4x4 clubs for assistance. These people are just as keen to see irresponsible off roading curtailed as the rest of us, in fact possibly more so because it is their hobby which is at stake. They already receive a lot of sometimes unwarranted flak and are likely to do all they can to help with "wardening" and reporting anti-social behaviour.
For example a few years ago a local landrover club spent a year in their or spare time re-opening a heavily overgrown green lane which had become clogged with fly tipping, abandoned cars and undergrowth. They filled in the ruts, dug drainage ditches and did a lot of good work which not only opened up a lost bye-way for everyone to enjoy, but gave them a route they could responsibly enjoy. They were also very hot on reporting rogue 4x4s which strayed off the track and into the adjoining woods.
> (In reply to john horscroft)
>
> responsible 4x4 drivers can help
>>
> responsible 4x4 drivers can help
Good point. It's worth contacting bone fide Land Rover and 4x4 clubs for assistance. These people are just as keen to see irresponsible off roading curtailed as the rest of us, in fact possibly more so because it is their hobby which is at stake. They already receive a lot of sometimes unwarranted flak and are likely to do all they can to help with "wardening" and reporting anti-social behaviour.
For example a few years ago a local landrover club spent a year in their or spare time re-opening a heavily overgrown green lane which had become clogged with fly tipping, abandoned cars and undergrowth. They filled in the ruts, dug drainage ditches and did a lot of good work which not only opened up a lost bye-way for everyone to enjoy, but gave them a route they could responsibly enjoy. They were also very hot on reporting rogue 4x4s which strayed off the track and into the adjoining woods.
In reply to john horscroft:
Just gone over houndkirk and what a mess, 4 4X4 coming down the path to the finger post from Burbage moor. Thay had covered the Number plates up with mud.
Just gone over houndkirk and what a mess, 4 4X4 coming down the path to the finger post from Burbage moor. Thay had covered the Number plates up with mud.
In reply to robert-hutton: I went off roading with friends, for the first time, today over what I think was this area and all I can say is that the damage is trivial compared to the damage caused by mountainbikers on tracks reserved for walkers.
Anyway to top off a top day out we were given a load of verbals by people wearing climbing kit at the Norfolk Arms for off roading, if this was you then your credibility as fave eco warrior would be better if you hadn't got into a range rover int he car park.
PS every part of the car was covered in mud when we finished.
Anyway to top off a top day out we were given a load of verbals by people wearing climbing kit at the Norfolk Arms for off roading, if this was you then your credibility as fave eco warrior would be better if you hadn't got into a range rover int he car park.
PS every part of the car was covered in mud when we finished.
In reply to Mr Ree:
Wow - extreeeeme.
> PS every part of the car was covered in mud when we finished.
Wow - extreeeeme.
In reply to Queequeg: It was, if you've never driven off road before, I can tell you its an eye opener, much much more exciting than top roping.
In reply to Mr Ree:
Thanks, I'm sure it's better than top roping, but then that's the lowest common demominator and I'm never party to that either.
Thanks, I'm sure it's better than top roping, but then that's the lowest common demominator and I'm never party to that either.
In reply to john horscroft:
Last time I went off roading I managed to roll it (Landrover) :-P
Was quite embarassing!
Last time I went off roading I managed to roll it (Landrover) :-P
Was quite embarassing!
In reply to john horscroft:
Sorry Mr Ree, not me, I running just in front of you when you descended that footpath!
Strange but I was sure you would be onto this forum tonight, as all you want to do is upset people either on the hill or on this site.
Sorry Mr Ree, not me, I running just in front of you when you descended that footpath!
Strange but I was sure you would be onto this forum tonight, as all you want to do is upset people either on the hill or on this site.
In reply to Mr Ree: sorry mate,but you just came across as a gigantic arse.
before you start,i own a 300tdi defender 90 which i greenlane in, and i can safely say that on the many miles of greenlanes ive done, i have never returned with my vehicle in the state you described, for the simple reason that to do that you either have to A) hammer it through some mud and therefore be going to fast for a lane, or B) be in a position where the wheels are spinning hard enough and for long enough to spread mud up the sides, again, a position you shouldnt be in on a a lane as if a landy wont crawl out without spinning then the lane isnt firm enough at that time to facilitate proper use.
when i can i will help maintain lanes, cutting back fallen trees and overgrown bushes, as well asbacking off if i cant make it through without causing major irreversable damage
before you start,i own a 300tdi defender 90 which i greenlane in, and i can safely say that on the many miles of greenlanes ive done, i have never returned with my vehicle in the state you described, for the simple reason that to do that you either have to A) hammer it through some mud and therefore be going to fast for a lane, or B) be in a position where the wheels are spinning hard enough and for long enough to spread mud up the sides, again, a position you shouldnt be in on a a lane as if a landy wont crawl out without spinning then the lane isnt firm enough at that time to facilitate proper use.
when i can i will help maintain lanes, cutting back fallen trees and overgrown bushes, as well asbacking off if i cant make it through without causing major irreversable damage
In reply to john horscroft: oh, and green laning and off roading are 2 different things
In reply to Mr Ree:
I'm assuming for the sake of argument that this isn't an emormous troll. If it is, you're a seriously dangerous and wacky cove and there's no mistake.
If however, you genuinely have been over Houndkirk, you'll have noticed that some of the 4x4 fraternity have been driving across the moor (which was the original topic of this thread). I'm interested to know if you think that is fair game? The moor itself is a site of special scientific interest rendering any damage a criminal offence.
Secondly, the damage you do to Houndkirk now may result in 4x4 use being curtailed at some time in the future if the authorities decide it is unsustainable. Doesn't this bother you?
Over to you for further sober analysis of the issue.
jh
I'm assuming for the sake of argument that this isn't an emormous troll. If it is, you're a seriously dangerous and wacky cove and there's no mistake.
If however, you genuinely have been over Houndkirk, you'll have noticed that some of the 4x4 fraternity have been driving across the moor (which was the original topic of this thread). I'm interested to know if you think that is fair game? The moor itself is a site of special scientific interest rendering any damage a criminal offence.
Secondly, the damage you do to Houndkirk now may result in 4x4 use being curtailed at some time in the future if the authorities decide it is unsustainable. Doesn't this bother you?
Over to you for further sober analysis of the issue.
jh
In reply to Mr Ree:
Although I'm sure you were careful to clean it off the number plates before driving on a public road, weren't you?
> PS every part of the car was covered in mud when we finished.
Although I'm sure you were careful to clean it off the number plates before driving on a public road, weren't you?
In reply to Mr Ree:
Just wanted to clarify, when I say
"you'll have noticed that some of the 4x4 fraternity have been driving across the moor"
I mean off Houndkirk itself.
jh
Just wanted to clarify, when I say
"you'll have noticed that some of the 4x4 fraternity have been driving across the moor"
I mean off Houndkirk itself.
jh
In reply to john horscroft:
Can I be clear about the facts, before I start giving out abuse to people and take photos/phone police, next time I'm on Houndkirk.
1. Are people legally allowed to drive over the moor, using the tracks?
2. If yes/no which routes are in/out. As far as I know, both start near Parson House outdoor centre. There is the one that ends by the road next to the Norfolk Arms and one at the top of Lady Cannings plantation.
Was out bouldering a couple of weeks ago and saw two 4x4s going really quickly along the latter, with the gates left open after them
I am right in thinking that the road from Redmires over to Stanage Plantation is 'in' and legal?
Thanks
Mat
Can I be clear about the facts, before I start giving out abuse to people and take photos/phone police, next time I'm on Houndkirk.
1. Are people legally allowed to drive over the moor, using the tracks?
2. If yes/no which routes are in/out. As far as I know, both start near Parson House outdoor centre. There is the one that ends by the road next to the Norfolk Arms and one at the top of Lady Cannings plantation.
Was out bouldering a couple of weeks ago and saw two 4x4s going really quickly along the latter, with the gates left open after them
I am right in thinking that the road from Redmires over to Stanage Plantation is 'in' and legal?
Thanks
Mat
In reply to mat_galvin:
Yes, but only on the byway. They're marked on the OS map with crosses - there are two on Houndkirk Moor, one roughly from the Fox House over to the Norfolk Arms, the other crosses it coming off Ringinglow Rd down the other side of Lady Canning's Plantation and down towards Door Moor and Sheephill Rd. (But I think the gate onto Sheephill Rd is too narrow for a car.)
The rest of Houndkirk and Burbage Moors are out, as is coming off the byways onto the moor to bypass the most damaged bits. (Besides, I thought the whole point of driving over the byway was because its meant to be a challenge, the big poncy 4x4 driving wimps. Where are yer ramps, jacks and winches now you tubby camoflage wearing nonces, eh!?! but I digress.. )
Yep, its 'in' from Redmires up past Stanedge Pole, and all the way down the Causeway under High Neb back onto the (tarmac) road. (The causeway itself is technically a road too, I believe.)
Again, driving off the track to bypass the more difficult bits by churning up fresh ground is very much 'out of bounds'. The people who do so are engaging in the 4x4 equivalent of mass top-roping Sunset Slab in muddy trainers.
> 1. Are people legally allowed to drive over the moor, using the tracks?
Yes, but only on the byway. They're marked on the OS map with crosses - there are two on Houndkirk Moor, one roughly from the Fox House over to the Norfolk Arms, the other crosses it coming off Ringinglow Rd down the other side of Lady Canning's Plantation and down towards Door Moor and Sheephill Rd. (But I think the gate onto Sheephill Rd is too narrow for a car.)
The rest of Houndkirk and Burbage Moors are out, as is coming off the byways onto the moor to bypass the most damaged bits. (Besides, I thought the whole point of driving over the byway was because its meant to be a challenge, the big poncy 4x4 driving wimps. Where are yer ramps, jacks and winches now you tubby camoflage wearing nonces, eh!?! but I digress.. )
> I am right in thinking that the road from Redmires over to Stanage Plantation is 'in' and legal?
Yep, its 'in' from Redmires up past Stanedge Pole, and all the way down the Causeway under High Neb back onto the (tarmac) road. (The causeway itself is technically a road too, I believe.)
Again, driving off the track to bypass the more difficult bits by churning up fresh ground is very much 'out of bounds'. The people who do so are engaging in the 4x4 equivalent of mass top-roping Sunset Slab in muddy trainers.
In reply to deepsoup:
Brill-thanks for that. Know where we all stand now.
Did laugh at the digression!
Mat
Brill-thanks for that. Know where we all stand now.
Did laugh at the digression!
Mat
In reply to Mr Ree: 4x4 off road, pepsi max, yeah, extreeeeeeeem. nob.
In reply to MattG:
might as well give this an airing..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPERR2aybc&feature=related
might as well give this an airing..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPERR2aybc&feature=related
In reply to dannym2710:
> > before you start,i own a 300tdi defender 90 which i greenlane in, and i can safely say that on the many miles of greenlanes ive done, i have never returned with my vehicle in the state you described, for the simple reason that to do that you either have to A) hammer it through some mud and therefore be going to fast for a lane, or B) be in a position where the wheels are spinning hard enough and for long enough to spread mud up the sides, again, a position you shouldnt be in on a a lane as if a landy wont crawl out without spinning then the lane isnt firm enough at that time to facilitate proper use.
>
You left out c) throwing bucketfulls of mud onto the vehicle in an attempt to impress people with how muddy you got it.>
In reply to Removed User:
Try this one. Has footage of Houndkirk on it. Plus other places in the Peak
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QOo1vxtY80w&feature=related
> (In reply to Removed UserMattG)
>
>
Try this one. Has footage of Houndkirk on it. Plus other places in the Peak
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QOo1vxtY80w&feature=related
In reply to Anonymous:
To be honest that is a very depressing bit of video. It's not just the wanton vandalism, it's the fact they are completely unaware that they are doing anything wrong. These guys are turning a national park into a quagmire
> Try this one. Has footage of Houndkirk on it. Plus other places in the Peak
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QOo1vxtY80w&feature=related
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QOo1vxtY80w&feature=related
To be honest that is a very depressing bit of video. It's not just the wanton vandalism, it's the fact they are completely unaware that they are doing anything wrong. These guys are turning a national park into a quagmire
In reply to Chris the Tall:
However on the positive side as evidence, i suppose it could be quite useful hence my posting it.
> (In reply to Anonymous)
> [...]
>
> To be honest that is a very depressing bit of video. It's not just the wanton vandalism, it's the fact they are completely unaware that they are doing anything wrong. These guys are turning a national park into a quagmire
> [...]
>
> To be honest that is a very depressing bit of video. It's not just the wanton vandalism, it's the fact they are completely unaware that they are doing anything wrong. These guys are turning a national park into a quagmire
However on the positive side as evidence, i suppose it could be quite useful hence my posting it.
In reply to john horscroft: does that mean that you can damage- or at least drive on- the legal offroads as you like? im trying to gauge the general sentiment towards legal 4x4ers...
In reply to jbird: can i clear something up with you there?green lanes are not "off roads" they are goverened by the same rules as normal tarmaced roads. ive had this argument 3 times today with ramblers whilst parked on a lane trying to fix a bent steering arm on a friends motor.no i dont need permission to be there, and yes, if you do remove that pristine map from its wrapper you will see they are classed as roads.
i apologise if you have no beef with us, but im just a bit annoyed at the general concensus that im the devil because i greenlane. if i can i will get a picture of a lane we did yesterday,the surface was hard packed and we left no tyre marks, but when we got to a puddle the softer grass around it was torn apart with hundreds of mountainbike tyre tracks, i dont mean just surface marks, but gouges that were probably about 10-12 inches deep, as well as hundreds of feet marks from the millions of ramblers that had avoided the puddle
i apologise if you have no beef with us, but im just a bit annoyed at the general concensus that im the devil because i greenlane. if i can i will get a picture of a lane we did yesterday,the surface was hard packed and we left no tyre marks, but when we got to a puddle the softer grass around it was torn apart with hundreds of mountainbike tyre tracks, i dont mean just surface marks, but gouges that were probably about 10-12 inches deep, as well as hundreds of feet marks from the millions of ramblers that had avoided the puddle
In reply to dannym2710: calm down man, im just asking because i went greenlaning today, and offroads sounds cool, plus i wouldnt mind my own landy soon!
In reply to jbird: sorry jsut had a bit of pent up rage after being hounded by about 3 different groups of ramblers about why i was there, and why i was hitting a steering bar with a hamer...
In reply to jbird: where did you go greenlaning at btw?
In reply to dannym2710: up between chapel en le frith and castelton, we did two lanes just north of rushop, some pretty cool stuff, i got to have a quick drive as i havent done it before (but have a license etc), pretty scared sometimes though! how about you?
and do reckon a 110 2.5diesel defender with checkerplate all over, snorkel, tax til the end of this year and a weld job to patch the chasis to pass its MOT for £600-800, because i have this offer?
and do reckon a 110 2.5diesel defender with checkerplate all over, snorkel, tax til the end of this year and a weld job to patch the chasis to pass its MOT for £600-800, because i have this offer?
In reply to jbird:
*shakes head sadly*
> (In reply to dannym2710) up between chapel en le frith and castelton, we did two lanes just north of rushop, some pretty cool stuff, i got to have a quick drive as i havent done it before (but have a license etc), pretty scared sometimes though! how about you?
> and do reckon a 110 2.5diesel defender with checkerplate all over, snorkel, tax til the end of this year and a weld job to patch the chasis to pass its MOT for £600-800, because i have this offer?
> and do reckon a 110 2.5diesel defender with checkerplate all over, snorkel, tax til the end of this year and a weld job to patch the chasis to pass its MOT for £600-800, because i have this offer?
*shakes head sadly*
In reply to jbird: is it a 2.5 n/a, 2.5 td or 2.5tdi? i woldnt touch the first 2 in a 110, plus id be more inclined to go for a 90 for laning as you have greater manouverability over 110s, and less chance of grounding it.
i did 2 days of laning all over the lakes,however i think i enjoyed the high tilberthwaite road the most due to the improvised field repair that had us out of action for 2 hours while we stripped the steering on one of the 90s (not mine).
i did 2 days of laning all over the lakes,however i think i enjoyed the high tilberthwaite road the most due to the improvised field repair that had us out of action for 2 hours while we stripped the steering on one of the 90s (not mine).
In reply to dannym2710: 2.5 td, 110s cheaper to buy parts for though seeing as theyre less desirable, and i dont fancy being too extreme anyway.
In reply to Simon:
why? i want to know whats wrong because i still havent bought it and need all the opinions i can get..
> (In reply to jbird)
> [...]
>
>
>
>
> *shakes head sadly*
> [...]
>
>
>
>
> *shakes head sadly*
why? i want to know whats wrong because i still havent bought it and need all the opinions i can get..
In reply to jbird: tds are gutless, id maybe look at a disco, slightly comfier, with the right mods just as capable for what you need it for,and cheap for parts
In reply to dannym2710: mate had tdi 90, that was gutful, the boot space is useful in the back of a 110, but im keeping in mind a 4x4 isnt necessary, its for fun, so im not very fussy
In reply to jbird: only good thing with a 110 is the ability to sleep in the back.you should get yourself up here in summer, we'll show you some proper lanes.have you got msn?
In reply to dannym2710: i think youve got mail, dunno how this works though
In reply to jbird: aye got it
In reply to Chris the Tall: this is the best:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KBbk4buo3VU&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KBbk4buo3VU&feature=related
In reply to dannym and rockjedi and any other 4x4 bods:
Can I ask you 4x4 fans a couple of questions?? First up, do either of you belong to any kind of representative body for off-road enthusiasts? My reason for asking is that while it's true that any form of traffic on byways causes damage, irresponsible 4x4 use can decimate a trail in a matter of days. Responsible green-laners like your good selves obviously choose your trails depending on conditions, but there are many who don't. What's the chances a voluntary code of conduct administered by a representative body would work??
Secondly. if you saw another 4x4 driver going off a byway onto surrounding land, would you say anything?? Above Redmires reservoir on the Stanage Causeway and beside Houndkirk, the land is a SSSI and it's a criminal offence to drive on it. If the 4x4 communtiy isn't prepared to deal with its own miscreants, who should?
Thanks for contributing to the debate
jh
Can I ask you 4x4 fans a couple of questions?? First up, do either of you belong to any kind of representative body for off-road enthusiasts? My reason for asking is that while it's true that any form of traffic on byways causes damage, irresponsible 4x4 use can decimate a trail in a matter of days. Responsible green-laners like your good selves obviously choose your trails depending on conditions, but there are many who don't. What's the chances a voluntary code of conduct administered by a representative body would work??
Secondly. if you saw another 4x4 driver going off a byway onto surrounding land, would you say anything?? Above Redmires reservoir on the Stanage Causeway and beside Houndkirk, the land is a SSSI and it's a criminal offence to drive on it. If the 4x4 communtiy isn't prepared to deal with its own miscreants, who should?
Thanks for contributing to the debate
jh
In reply to john horscroft:
Well, on behalf of my brother, answering so far as I can...
1) Yes, he does; I think a local and a national group, but I don't remember names or details. The local group self-regulates to an extent, but I wouldn't presume to guess at anything more than that.
2) Most likely he, and they, would. Such of them as I've met seem pretty vocal and irritable about the bad press the irresponsible drivers attract that rubs off on them, and despite looking like extras from Mad Max, or indeed me staggering down from the Ben, they actually handle confrontation in a pretty thoughtful and effective way. Not that they're all saints - I'm sure some of them would dry-tool an out-of-condition winter route...
Of course, there's a little subtle distinction here. If something's a criminal offence, then it most certainly isn't for an ill-defined "4x4 community" to deal with it. Just like climbers, anyone who thinks they have an interest have to make do with lobbying the local police to take an interest, lobbying their national body to get some action and get something done, and get royally frustrated in the process. I'm sure jh's point was to encourage responsible education rather than vigilante pillockry ?
Y
Well, on behalf of my brother, answering so far as I can...
1) Yes, he does; I think a local and a national group, but I don't remember names or details. The local group self-regulates to an extent, but I wouldn't presume to guess at anything more than that.
2) Most likely he, and they, would. Such of them as I've met seem pretty vocal and irritable about the bad press the irresponsible drivers attract that rubs off on them, and despite looking like extras from Mad Max, or indeed me staggering down from the Ben, they actually handle confrontation in a pretty thoughtful and effective way. Not that they're all saints - I'm sure some of them would dry-tool an out-of-condition winter route...
Of course, there's a little subtle distinction here. If something's a criminal offence, then it most certainly isn't for an ill-defined "4x4 community" to deal with it. Just like climbers, anyone who thinks they have an interest have to make do with lobbying the local police to take an interest, lobbying their national body to get some action and get something done, and get royally frustrated in the process. I'm sure jh's point was to encourage responsible education rather than vigilante pillockry ?
Y
In reply to john horscroft:
Ey up John.
I know nothin about 4x4s, but I do know the 2-wheeled green-laners' representative body has had a voluntary code of conduct for years:
http://www.trf.org.uk/index.php
I'd be very surprised if the 4x4 equivalent(s) don't have something similar.
<rummages around on Google for a bit>
Yup, here's something:
http://www.glass-uk.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2...
Ey up John.
I know nothin about 4x4s, but I do know the 2-wheeled green-laners' representative body has had a voluntary code of conduct for years:
http://www.trf.org.uk/index.php
I'd be very surprised if the 4x4 equivalent(s) don't have something similar.
<rummages around on Google for a bit>
Yup, here's something:
http://www.glass-uk.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2...
In reply to john horscroft: we do have a voluntary code but as with everything its just that, voluntary.if we do see anything which we dont agree with then yes, we will say something.i personally am not a member of any of the assosciations atm, but many of the guys i lane with are, and we all follow the rules.it annoys me when i hear the argument that we are ruining the lanes with misuse, because its a small minority that ruins it for us, in the same way that there is a small minority of climbers that think its acceptable to chip holds because they cant do a route.if i had to substancially modify a part of a lane, or go up onto a banking to get round a section i would back off and give up
In reply to john horscroft: also i see more and more uninsured, unregistered bikes on lanes. i have nothing against bikers as i am one, but the majority of damage we saw over sunday and monday was ruts caused by bikers bypassing rocky sections on foot paths
In reply to dannym2710 and Yanchik:
Hi Danny and Yanchik,
I'm going to be absolutely honest. When I saw the damage on Houndkirk increasing almost exponentially, I was furious and would probably have supported a ban on motorised use. However, I soon saw the error of my ways. I'm not into bans on the basis that if they come for the 4x4's now, it could be mountian bikes in the future.
Thats why I'm commited to seeking dialogue with trail users. I know damn well there's a lot of green lane fans out there who are as horrified as I am by the misuse of byways. In almost every user group, you'll find idiots who are prepared to jeopardise future freedoms for short term fun. The current legislative framework means that should 'unsustainable' damage occur, byways can be closed and the Peak Park have confirmed they may take that step if things get too bad.
That's why it's crucial that the 4x4 and trail bikers do all they can to police the situation. You simply can't fall back on the 'few bad eggs' defence because, in the end, you're going to lose your rights as a result of the actions of those bad eggs. Peer pressure has a big part to play. Climbers and mountain bikers have both had to resort to peer pressure in the past and still do.
Yanchik's right, my intention is to 'encourage responsible education rather than vigilante pillockry'. Better that different user groups get together to deal with the bad eggs than we continue to bicker on the fringes and fight in isolation.
here endeth the sermon. Sorry for being preachy!
cheers
jh
Hi Danny and Yanchik,
I'm going to be absolutely honest. When I saw the damage on Houndkirk increasing almost exponentially, I was furious and would probably have supported a ban on motorised use. However, I soon saw the error of my ways. I'm not into bans on the basis that if they come for the 4x4's now, it could be mountian bikes in the future.
Thats why I'm commited to seeking dialogue with trail users. I know damn well there's a lot of green lane fans out there who are as horrified as I am by the misuse of byways. In almost every user group, you'll find idiots who are prepared to jeopardise future freedoms for short term fun. The current legislative framework means that should 'unsustainable' damage occur, byways can be closed and the Peak Park have confirmed they may take that step if things get too bad.
That's why it's crucial that the 4x4 and trail bikers do all they can to police the situation. You simply can't fall back on the 'few bad eggs' defence because, in the end, you're going to lose your rights as a result of the actions of those bad eggs. Peer pressure has a big part to play. Climbers and mountain bikers have both had to resort to peer pressure in the past and still do.
Yanchik's right, my intention is to 'encourage responsible education rather than vigilante pillockry'. Better that different user groups get together to deal with the bad eggs than we continue to bicker on the fringes and fight in isolation.
here endeth the sermon. Sorry for being preachy!
cheers
jh
In reply to deepsoup:
Ey oop Sean!
Thanks for doing the research. Both of the codes of conduct seem admirable. Shame so many riders and drivers ignore them.
Anecdotally, the new agreement on the Stanage Causeway is being observed by the majority of users. it closely mirrors the codes you've found and introduces a one-way system.
The way forward?
cheers
jh
Ey oop Sean!
Thanks for doing the research. Both of the codes of conduct seem admirable. Shame so many riders and drivers ignore them.
Anecdotally, the new agreement on the Stanage Causeway is being observed by the majority of users. it closely mirrors the codes you've found and introduces a one-way system.
The way forward?
cheers
jh
In reply to john horscroft:
No harm in the emotions: we need them if something's to be done. I didn't hear a sermon: I heard some good sense. And yes, that stuff grips my sh1t too.
Now, how to turn that cold hard anger into some effective persuasion ? We've just gotta do it without setting up false oppositions or spouting off unburdened by any actual knowledge.
Alternatively, landmines ?
Y
No harm in the emotions: we need them if something's to be done. I didn't hear a sermon: I heard some good sense. And yes, that stuff grips my sh1t too.
Now, how to turn that cold hard anger into some effective persuasion ? We've just gotta do it without setting up false oppositions or spouting off unburdened by any actual knowledge.
Alternatively, landmines ?
Y
In reply to The Very Reverend john horscroft:
Have to say I don't share your optimism regarding that it's only a "few bad eggs" causing the damage. OK some of the damage on Houndkirk is caused by them going off-piste (and making it look like a tank practice ground), but elsewehere it's them simply trying to get from A to B (or pub to pub).
If a mountain biker gets stuck in mud, they'll pick up their bike and walk through it, but with a 4x4 you can't do that. They'll spin their wheels and go back and forth until they find a way through. And if they get stuck (which does happen) then the other drivers will go around them. More often they'll realise they are going to get stuck and just go around anyway. Totley Moss and Shatton Moor have both been badly damaged like this for years - numerous paralel tracks,several inpassable, and now Houndkirk is going the same way. Erosion is inherant in the many activities, but not on the same scale.
The problem is that if Sheffield council does repair the surface - presumably requiring lots of drainage ditchs and tons of hardcore - will it just make the route more popular ? Will we see a constant convoy of noisy 4x4s and trail bikes going along it ?
Have to say I don't share your optimism regarding that it's only a "few bad eggs" causing the damage. OK some of the damage on Houndkirk is caused by them going off-piste (and making it look like a tank practice ground), but elsewehere it's them simply trying to get from A to B (or pub to pub).
If a mountain biker gets stuck in mud, they'll pick up their bike and walk through it, but with a 4x4 you can't do that. They'll spin their wheels and go back and forth until they find a way through. And if they get stuck (which does happen) then the other drivers will go around them. More often they'll realise they are going to get stuck and just go around anyway. Totley Moss and Shatton Moor have both been badly damaged like this for years - numerous paralel tracks,several inpassable, and now Houndkirk is going the same way. Erosion is inherant in the many activities, but not on the same scale.
The problem is that if Sheffield council does repair the surface - presumably requiring lots of drainage ditchs and tons of hardcore - will it just make the route more popular ? Will we see a constant convoy of noisy 4x4s and trail bikes going along it ?
In reply to john horscroft:
Walking along Stanage causeway on boxing day, I noticed that when you get to the very rocky section that is featured in all the videos on youtube, the smell of oil is extremely strong. Very noticable.
It's a shame.
Walking along Stanage causeway on boxing day, I noticed that when you get to the very rocky section that is featured in all the videos on youtube, the smell of oil is extremely strong. Very noticable.
It's a shame.
In reply to Chris the Tall: I'm afraid I'm with your cynicism, rather than Johns optimism, although my professional experience was in a more urban environment the bikes and off roaders were in the main taxed and legal.
Had an unfortunate meeting with bikes on a bridleway in the Berwyns over Christmas, which hasn't sweetened me any. There ARE byways in the Berwyns, but like Houndkirk, there seems to be lot of mission creep - not just around tricky spots, but onto other more restricted RoWs as well. Regrettably, you don't meet the responsible drivers in the main, as they are elsewhere.
Had an unfortunate meeting with bikes on a bridleway in the Berwyns over Christmas, which hasn't sweetened me any. There ARE byways in the Berwyns, but like Houndkirk, there seems to be lot of mission creep - not just around tricky spots, but onto other more restricted RoWs as well. Regrettably, you don't meet the responsible drivers in the main, as they are elsewhere.
In reply to toad and Chris the freakily tall:
Must be the new year coming round, but I feel fullalove. Or something. Cynicism is my default position also, but if we don't try to get some dialogue going, the situation is going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better. The endgame is the closure of byways under the traffic regulations but that's going to take forever.
Better surely to engage with the responsible users immediately and try to get something going. i know it's not the complete answer but it must be some of the answer.
happy new year!!!!!
jh
Must be the new year coming round, but I feel fullalove. Or something. Cynicism is my default position also, but if we don't try to get some dialogue going, the situation is going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better. The endgame is the closure of byways under the traffic regulations but that's going to take forever.
Better surely to engage with the responsible users immediately and try to get something going. i know it's not the complete answer but it must be some of the answer.
happy new year!!!!!
jh
In reply to Chris the Tall: ive already stated that a rule abiding driver should never spin their wheels to that extent.i know if i was stupid enough to get in that situation i would stop, and get the following car to pull me out.
In reply to john horscroft: sorry to drag this out, but here are 2 videos we shot whilst in the lakes on sunday and monday
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xQAMej_kS-4&fmt=18
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d1WgFyHnEww&fmt=18
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xQAMej_kS-4&fmt=18
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d1WgFyHnEww&fmt=18
In reply to dannym2710: i hope you all find they show greenlaning in a good light
In reply to john horscroft:
When you see them - give them the rods - thats what we do anyway - there's no need for them to be anywhere near Houndkirk moor IMHO - your making deals with the devil here Horscroft!!
;0P
>
> The way forward?
>
> The way forward?
>
When you see them - give them the rods - thats what we do anyway - there's no need for them to be anywhere near Houndkirk moor IMHO - your making deals with the devil here Horscroft!!
;0P
In reply to john horscroft:
I'm a seasoned Green Laner, and a member of GLASS - the Green Lane Association. I first started laning in 1988 in my girlfriend's (now wife) Series 3, including access to Stanage Edge and spots in North Wales for climbing.
One of the issues that faces 4x4 users is that we are highly fragmented as a community, we are disparate in our choice of vehicle, be it Land Rover, Jeep, Itchibushi etc. or choice of recreation - from extreme winch trials and mud plugging on private land, to low impact green laning. The result is that the boundaries get blurred, and irresponsible drivers end up emulating a mud plug on an SSSI illegally - and they see nothing wrong with it.
I personally have run out of patience with the idiot minority who drive illegally, away from Byways and ORPAs (other routes with public access). These are the fringe who won't listen to reason and don't care. My stance now is to photograph/video and report illegal driving to the police. The North Wales police are particularly receptive to this, and can issue what's know as a section 59 notice to drivers who cause alarm or distress to others. A second report in 12 months can get the driver's vehicle crushed.
In short - lets be vigilant and assist the police in providing evidence of the law breakers, be they in 4x4s, or breaking into cars in the Ogwen Car Parks. But I would also plead that the responsible users are not penalised by the minority - because the more restrictions there are in the countryside the more it's likely to affect other reasonable users groups in the future - be that mountain biking, climbing or hillwalking.
Cheers
Jonathan
For ref - the GLASS code of conduct is as follows:
Ø Use only rights of way with known, proven or provable vehicular rights. If challenged, discuss; if not resolved, then leave as requested until status is rechecked.
Ø Keep to the defined track. Detour only to pass immovable obstructions. Report any obstructions (including low branches) to the Highway authority and the local GLASS Area Representative. Be critical of your own abilities and equipment when assessing an Obstruction; it is your right to Abate a non-lawful Obstruction, but do not commit yourself to a bigger task than you are equipped for.
Ø If the route is not obvious on the ground, ask locally, or check on the maps held at the Highway authority offices or consult the local GLASS Area Representative.
Ø Travel at a quiet and unobtrusive pace and as slowly as practicable; we recommend a maximum of 12 mph when in a 4x4 and on an Unsurfaced Right of Way (URoW). Ensure your vehicle is fully road-legal, URoW are subject to the same laws as surfaced roads.
Ø When travelling in groups, keep to a small number - four or less. Split larger parties up and either use a different route or allow a good interval to elapse before following.
Ø Do not travel on URoW when they risk being affected beyond a point of natural recovery once the weather improves. If need be, walk some or all of the route first to determine its suitability. Do not use URoW that maybe damaged by the wheel pressure applied by your vehicle.
Ø Avoid damage to trees, hedgerows and boundaries. Some roads carry vehicular rights but are physically too narrow for 4x4s.
Ø Do not practice recovery techniques on any Unsurfaced Right of Way. Use a winch only with extreme caution, and use only the correct equipment and techniques.
Ø Be courteous to other road users - pull over and stop your vehicle for walkers, but pull over, stop your vehicle and switch off the engine for passing horses. Thank those who move over for you.
Ø After consultations with Country Landowners Association and National Farmers Union HQ’s, "best practice" dictates that gates if they were found to be secured in an open position should be left open, and those which are found shut or swinging should be shut behind you; the Landowner might appreciate being told about a gate insecurely propped open if you see them.
I'm a seasoned Green Laner, and a member of GLASS - the Green Lane Association. I first started laning in 1988 in my girlfriend's (now wife) Series 3, including access to Stanage Edge and spots in North Wales for climbing.
One of the issues that faces 4x4 users is that we are highly fragmented as a community, we are disparate in our choice of vehicle, be it Land Rover, Jeep, Itchibushi etc. or choice of recreation - from extreme winch trials and mud plugging on private land, to low impact green laning. The result is that the boundaries get blurred, and irresponsible drivers end up emulating a mud plug on an SSSI illegally - and they see nothing wrong with it.
I personally have run out of patience with the idiot minority who drive illegally, away from Byways and ORPAs (other routes with public access). These are the fringe who won't listen to reason and don't care. My stance now is to photograph/video and report illegal driving to the police. The North Wales police are particularly receptive to this, and can issue what's know as a section 59 notice to drivers who cause alarm or distress to others. A second report in 12 months can get the driver's vehicle crushed.
In short - lets be vigilant and assist the police in providing evidence of the law breakers, be they in 4x4s, or breaking into cars in the Ogwen Car Parks. But I would also plead that the responsible users are not penalised by the minority - because the more restrictions there are in the countryside the more it's likely to affect other reasonable users groups in the future - be that mountain biking, climbing or hillwalking.
Cheers
Jonathan
For ref - the GLASS code of conduct is as follows:
Ø Use only rights of way with known, proven or provable vehicular rights. If challenged, discuss; if not resolved, then leave as requested until status is rechecked.
Ø Keep to the defined track. Detour only to pass immovable obstructions. Report any obstructions (including low branches) to the Highway authority and the local GLASS Area Representative. Be critical of your own abilities and equipment when assessing an Obstruction; it is your right to Abate a non-lawful Obstruction, but do not commit yourself to a bigger task than you are equipped for.
Ø If the route is not obvious on the ground, ask locally, or check on the maps held at the Highway authority offices or consult the local GLASS Area Representative.
Ø Travel at a quiet and unobtrusive pace and as slowly as practicable; we recommend a maximum of 12 mph when in a 4x4 and on an Unsurfaced Right of Way (URoW). Ensure your vehicle is fully road-legal, URoW are subject to the same laws as surfaced roads.
Ø When travelling in groups, keep to a small number - four or less. Split larger parties up and either use a different route or allow a good interval to elapse before following.
Ø Do not travel on URoW when they risk being affected beyond a point of natural recovery once the weather improves. If need be, walk some or all of the route first to determine its suitability. Do not use URoW that maybe damaged by the wheel pressure applied by your vehicle.
Ø Avoid damage to trees, hedgerows and boundaries. Some roads carry vehicular rights but are physically too narrow for 4x4s.
Ø Do not practice recovery techniques on any Unsurfaced Right of Way. Use a winch only with extreme caution, and use only the correct equipment and techniques.
Ø Be courteous to other road users - pull over and stop your vehicle for walkers, but pull over, stop your vehicle and switch off the engine for passing horses. Thank those who move over for you.
Ø After consultations with Country Landowners Association and National Farmers Union HQ’s, "best practice" dictates that gates if they were found to be secured in an open position should be left open, and those which are found shut or swinging should be shut behind you; the Landowner might appreciate being told about a gate insecurely propped open if you see them.
In reply to widget3: thanks widget mate
In reply to TN:
Oil, petrol / shitty emissions & fumes damage to the environment & littering over the moor (trust me to how much shit is left) - I'm within my reason to object to the tw*ts in the 4X4's...
Thats my reasons TN!!
;0)
> (In reply to Simon)
>
> Nice reasoned response there Simon...
>
> Nice reasoned response there Simon...
Oil, petrol / shitty emissions & fumes damage to the environment & littering over the moor (trust me to how much shit is left) - I'm within my reason to object to the tw*ts in the 4X4's...
Thats my reasons TN!!
;0)
In reply to Simon:
Chalk encrusted routes, donkey ticks left in place, trainer-clod groups top roping 3* classics, rubbish at crags, erosion by overuse, climbers shitting in landowners gardens, bans being flouted...
How is this any different to what you are complaining about?
Widget and Dan have posted some very intelligent information above explaining about guidelines and recommendations that should be followed by people who use green lanes and explained, as in climbing, that it tends to be a few bad eggs who bugger things up.
I've had a couple of run-ins with 4x4 drivers when I have been out on my mountainbike but am adult enough to realise when there's someone driving up a trail so narrow they can only get through by folding the wing mirrors in there are numerous others out there repairing and improving trails and relationships.
Also, Johns original comment was about people NOT using Houndkirk Road.
You're an intelligent bloke Simon - I just don't understand why you cannot accept it is an idiot minority that is causing this problem.
(And before you say it, yes I KNOW there is a problem but an all out ban is NOT the solution, on so many levels)
Okay, I have got my flak jacket on....
Chalk encrusted routes, donkey ticks left in place, trainer-clod groups top roping 3* classics, rubbish at crags, erosion by overuse, climbers shitting in landowners gardens, bans being flouted...
How is this any different to what you are complaining about?
Widget and Dan have posted some very intelligent information above explaining about guidelines and recommendations that should be followed by people who use green lanes and explained, as in climbing, that it tends to be a few bad eggs who bugger things up.
I've had a couple of run-ins with 4x4 drivers when I have been out on my mountainbike but am adult enough to realise when there's someone driving up a trail so narrow they can only get through by folding the wing mirrors in there are numerous others out there repairing and improving trails and relationships.
Also, Johns original comment was about people NOT using Houndkirk Road.
You're an intelligent bloke Simon - I just don't understand why you cannot accept it is an idiot minority that is causing this problem.
(And before you say it, yes I KNOW there is a problem but an all out ban is NOT the solution, on so many levels)
Okay, I have got my flak jacket on....
In reply to TN:
I think that's perfectly fair enough. Almost all users of the countryside leave an impact, whether they think they do or not. It's always a bit mystifying to me how different groups of 'hobbyists' seem to think that the countryside is god-given to them. IMO the ramblers are the worst of the lot for this. And most of them don't even live here - they just use it for their recreation.
I ride trails on a motorbike. I'm a member of the TRF and I ride according to their guidelines. A significant proportion of my friends keep horses and they like to use the BOATs/ORPAs round here to both walk and ride; so I understand the nervousness some road users have seeing a couple of bikers coming up behind them. Particularly as there are some real twonks out there with nicked/unlicensed bikes or travelling in packs of up to 50. However, I'm constantly suprised by the hostility I get from some walkers who clearly don't understand the catagorisation of the trail they're on. They'll happily walk on what is essentially a road with vehicular access with their dogs off the lead or kids running around (which I'm fine with, it's there for everyone) and then bitch at us as they walk past (always stopped, and ususally with our engines turned off). I must say, I was warned that horse riders would be the most aggressive, but I've not found that to be the case at all. If you're courteous and considerate they're normally very friendly and grateful. Farmers on the other hand.... :+)
Vehicular users have already lost so much access to so many of the country's byways that it seems churlish to bitch and moan about the responsible greenlaning of the few trails left to us. Perhaps if the UK were to adopt a US style approach and actually designate certain areas/trails for off-road vehicular use only it might avoid irresponsible use of historic trails. I live in an area where there are loads of disused quarries and chalk pits, yet they're not available for use to off-roaders either and the local authority will have no truck with the idea of using these waste grounds as off-road parks (leaving them effectively as a dumping ground for stolen bikes, 'cause the local roustabouts don't give a toss whether they're riding legally or not).
Luckily for me there's a couple of good enduro clubs near here, and a regular monthly practice track(s) on private land. So when I do feel the urge to tear it up, I can do so entirely legally without being antisocial.
I think that's perfectly fair enough. Almost all users of the countryside leave an impact, whether they think they do or not. It's always a bit mystifying to me how different groups of 'hobbyists' seem to think that the countryside is god-given to them. IMO the ramblers are the worst of the lot for this. And most of them don't even live here - they just use it for their recreation.
I ride trails on a motorbike. I'm a member of the TRF and I ride according to their guidelines. A significant proportion of my friends keep horses and they like to use the BOATs/ORPAs round here to both walk and ride; so I understand the nervousness some road users have seeing a couple of bikers coming up behind them. Particularly as there are some real twonks out there with nicked/unlicensed bikes or travelling in packs of up to 50. However, I'm constantly suprised by the hostility I get from some walkers who clearly don't understand the catagorisation of the trail they're on. They'll happily walk on what is essentially a road with vehicular access with their dogs off the lead or kids running around (which I'm fine with, it's there for everyone) and then bitch at us as they walk past (always stopped, and ususally with our engines turned off). I must say, I was warned that horse riders would be the most aggressive, but I've not found that to be the case at all. If you're courteous and considerate they're normally very friendly and grateful. Farmers on the other hand.... :+)
Vehicular users have already lost so much access to so many of the country's byways that it seems churlish to bitch and moan about the responsible greenlaning of the few trails left to us. Perhaps if the UK were to adopt a US style approach and actually designate certain areas/trails for off-road vehicular use only it might avoid irresponsible use of historic trails. I live in an area where there are loads of disused quarries and chalk pits, yet they're not available for use to off-roaders either and the local authority will have no truck with the idea of using these waste grounds as off-road parks (leaving them effectively as a dumping ground for stolen bikes, 'cause the local roustabouts don't give a toss whether they're riding legally or not).
Luckily for me there's a couple of good enduro clubs near here, and a regular monthly practice track(s) on private land. So when I do feel the urge to tear it up, I can do so entirely legally without being antisocial.
In reply to TN:
It's the only solution: no 4x4's or motor bikes in the mountains or the countryside. I've seen the results in the Dales, Wales and the North York Moors and you've got to hear it and see it to believe it.
> yes I KNOW there is a problem but an all out ban is NOT the solution, on so many levels
It's the only solution: no 4x4's or motor bikes in the mountains or the countryside. I've seen the results in the Dales, Wales and the North York Moors and you've got to hear it and see it to believe it.
In reply to Pekkie:
Will the farmers have to start using horse and carts again?
How will it be policed? You can't block off access to all the byways because the farmers will never be able to get their carts up them.
Who will take over responsibility for keeping the byways clear (GLASS and TRF do a great deal of work in this area)?
And what will we do about the damage left by climbers and mountain bikers and the litter left by walkers? Or is that acceptable damage?
We could, of course, just ban townies from using the countryside for recreational purposes. How does that grab you?
Will the farmers have to start using horse and carts again?
How will it be policed? You can't block off access to all the byways because the farmers will never be able to get their carts up them.
Who will take over responsibility for keeping the byways clear (GLASS and TRF do a great deal of work in this area)?
And what will we do about the damage left by climbers and mountain bikers and the litter left by walkers? Or is that acceptable damage?
We could, of course, just ban townies from using the countryside for recreational purposes. How does that grab you?
In reply to Anonymous:
> >
> And what will we do about the damage left by climbers and mountain bikers and the litter left by walkers? Or is that acceptable damage?
>
> So what are we talking about here? The odd crisp packet left by walkers or climbers? Or the 20 foot wide impassable morasse(I'm not joking, a walker coudn't get past it). Or you hear a roar in the distance and then at least 80 motor bikes skid past, leaving you deafened and covered in mud. Sorry, mate. I understand where you are coming from (I'd quite like to have a go at it myself) but 4 x 4's and motor bikes just don't belong in the mountains or the countryside.
> And what will we do about the damage left by climbers and mountain bikers and the litter left by walkers? Or is that acceptable damage?
>
> So what are we talking about here? The odd crisp packet left by walkers or climbers? Or the 20 foot wide impassable morasse(I'm not joking, a walker coudn't get past it). Or you hear a roar in the distance and then at least 80 motor bikes skid past, leaving you deafened and covered in mud. Sorry, mate. I understand where you are coming from (I'd quite like to have a go at it myself) but 4 x 4's and motor bikes just don't belong in the mountains or the countryside.
In reply to Pekkie:
Of course they belong in the countryside. Farmers use them. Tradesmen use them. Emergency services use them. In point of fact, I often see very bad ruts that are so big and deep they couldn't possibly have been caused by anything other than farm vehicles (the tyre tracks are pretty recognisable too).
Now if we can find a way to ensure that we can curtail the irresponsible use of byways (such as large groups of bikers riding with disregard for other road users) then there really shouldn't be a problem. My friends and I used to stand in front of off-roaders' vehicles that were 'off-piste' on the ridge across the Quantocks and explain to them that the ground they were tearing up would take about a millenia to reform. Most of them would seem a bit shirty, but would then get straight back on the track. On the other hand, when they ran the stag hunts the support vehicles and ATVs used by the farmers and landowners would just tear everything up at breakneck speed.
Banning all recreational users of byways wouldn't solve any of the problems raised in the thread above. You'd still get 'livelihood' users who aren't that @rsed about conduct or environmental damage. Plus you'd still get all the illegal users with unregistered/stolen bikes. Banning things willy nilly doesn't make the problem go away, just tends to ruin it for the legitimate and responsible users.
Of course they belong in the countryside. Farmers use them. Tradesmen use them. Emergency services use them. In point of fact, I often see very bad ruts that are so big and deep they couldn't possibly have been caused by anything other than farm vehicles (the tyre tracks are pretty recognisable too).
Now if we can find a way to ensure that we can curtail the irresponsible use of byways (such as large groups of bikers riding with disregard for other road users) then there really shouldn't be a problem. My friends and I used to stand in front of off-roaders' vehicles that were 'off-piste' on the ridge across the Quantocks and explain to them that the ground they were tearing up would take about a millenia to reform. Most of them would seem a bit shirty, but would then get straight back on the track. On the other hand, when they ran the stag hunts the support vehicles and ATVs used by the farmers and landowners would just tear everything up at breakneck speed.
Banning all recreational users of byways wouldn't solve any of the problems raised in the thread above. You'd still get 'livelihood' users who aren't that @rsed about conduct or environmental damage. Plus you'd still get all the illegal users with unregistered/stolen bikes. Banning things willy nilly doesn't make the problem go away, just tends to ruin it for the legitimate and responsible users.
In reply to danny, Johnathan, Simon and anonymous:
First up, great to see the response this thread has generated. On the whole, well argued, no vitriol and, dare I say it, something of a consensus appearing.
Simon - come on fella. While I can sympathise with your desire for peace and quiet in the countryside, let's be realistic. Certain trails have always been open to all traffic, to suggest otherwise is futile. There's not a snowball in hell's chance of a total ban, so we have to deal with the realities. Lots of 4x4 users are perfectly responsible - bejesus, some of them are even climbers! I've never seen an access conflict yet where resolution was reached by conflict alone, we have to achieve some kind of consensus across the divide and then convince the authorities to act on it.
This all boils down to resources. The police don't want to touch because they're too busy, the National Parks becuase they're broke and Natural England just don't appear to give a shit.
Therefore, just as we do with climbers, it has to be peer pressure that causes change. Just as peer pressure ensures that wire brush use on the grit is frowned upon, that littering by climbers is much less common now than it was years ago and that we don't routinely ignore bird bans.
So, do we continue talking, trying to help people like Danny and Jonathan deal with the tw*ts who cause all the damage, or do we call for a completely impractical ban?
cheers
jh
First up, great to see the response this thread has generated. On the whole, well argued, no vitriol and, dare I say it, something of a consensus appearing.
Simon - come on fella. While I can sympathise with your desire for peace and quiet in the countryside, let's be realistic. Certain trails have always been open to all traffic, to suggest otherwise is futile. There's not a snowball in hell's chance of a total ban, so we have to deal with the realities. Lots of 4x4 users are perfectly responsible - bejesus, some of them are even climbers! I've never seen an access conflict yet where resolution was reached by conflict alone, we have to achieve some kind of consensus across the divide and then convince the authorities to act on it.
This all boils down to resources. The police don't want to touch because they're too busy, the National Parks becuase they're broke and Natural England just don't appear to give a shit.
Therefore, just as we do with climbers, it has to be peer pressure that causes change. Just as peer pressure ensures that wire brush use on the grit is frowned upon, that littering by climbers is much less common now than it was years ago and that we don't routinely ignore bird bans.
So, do we continue talking, trying to help people like Danny and Jonathan deal with the tw*ts who cause all the damage, or do we call for a completely impractical ban?
cheers
jh
In reply to john horscroft: having read this thread and watched a few of those youtube clips, I cant for the life of me see the appeal in driving a big 4x4 very slowly through some puddles and over a few small pebbles
can anyone enlighten me?
I also doubt that a mountain bike causes more damage, but thats an argument I cant be bothered to have right now.
can anyone enlighten me?
I also doubt that a mountain bike causes more damage, but thats an argument I cant be bothered to have right now.
In reply to fxceltic:
When I was a farm worker, i drove a 4x4 and it was, sometimes, a good laugh, but I also fail to see how driving a landy over Houndkirk Moor can be classed as fun. However, that's not for me to judge I guess.
As for the idea that a mountain bike causes as much damage as a 4x4, research done in the states tend to suggest that MB's cause less damage even than walkers.
cheers
jh
When I was a farm worker, i drove a 4x4 and it was, sometimes, a good laugh, but I also fail to see how driving a landy over Houndkirk Moor can be classed as fun. However, that's not for me to judge I guess.
As for the idea that a mountain bike causes as much damage as a 4x4, research done in the states tend to suggest that MB's cause less damage even than walkers.
cheers
jh
In reply to all:
just found the reference I was looking for.
http://www.imba.com/resources/science/trail_shock.html
Not the last word on the subject but food for thought.
jh
just found the reference I was looking for.
http://www.imba.com/resources/science/trail_shock.html
Not the last word on the subject but food for thought.
jh
In reply to fxceltic:
> (In reply to john horscroft) having read this thread and watched a few of those youtube clips, I cant for the life of me see the appeal in climbing a big mountain very slowly through some puddles and over a few small pebbles
>
> can anyone enlighten me?
>
>
> can anyone enlighten me?
>
In reply to woolsack: come on woolsack, even for you thats controversial, posted as it is on a climbing forum...
naturally I am far from neutral on the debate, but I think most people could see the appeal of climbing over that which is seemingly presented by greenlaning
naturally I am far from neutral on the debate, but I think most people could see the appeal of climbing over that which is seemingly presented by greenlaning
In reply to john horscroft:
I don't think this is entirely fair to the authorities. On Sunday a policewoman was "having a chat" with some trail bikers at the Calver Outside cafe, and several times over the last few months I've seen police waiting around the green lanes around Stoney, Eyam and Abney, one time booking a bunch of bikers, I guess for not having plates on the highway. But this is Derbyshire, Houndkirk is S. Yorks and maybe the police there have different priorities.
> This all boils down to resources. The police don't want to touch because they're too busy, the National Parks becuase they're broke and Natural England just don't appear to give a shit.
>
>
I don't think this is entirely fair to the authorities. On Sunday a policewoman was "having a chat" with some trail bikers at the Calver Outside cafe, and several times over the last few months I've seen police waiting around the green lanes around Stoney, Eyam and Abney, one time booking a bunch of bikers, I guess for not having plates on the highway. But this is Derbyshire, Houndkirk is S. Yorks and maybe the police there have different priorities.
In reply to john horscroft:
this is sadly exactly my experience of natural england as well, they really dont give a shit, it seems to be an organisation that exists solely to convince the country that the government does care about the countryside while actually doing nothing.
my company uses the 1% for the planet scheme and we spoke to natural england about proposing them as a NFP that we could register with the scheme and donate to, their attitude immediately caused me to seek other more worthy causes to donate to.
> (In reply to danny, Johnathan, Simon and anonymous)
> and Natural England just don't appear to give a shit.
>
> and Natural England just don't appear to give a shit.
>
this is sadly exactly my experience of natural england as well, they really dont give a shit, it seems to be an organisation that exists solely to convince the country that the government does care about the countryside while actually doing nothing.
my company uses the 1% for the planet scheme and we spoke to natural england about proposing them as a NFP that we could register with the scheme and donate to, their attitude immediately caused me to seek other more worthy causes to donate to.
In reply to Richard J:
Wasn't really criticising the police, (for once in my life). Dealing with misuse of byways is a massive project and the police can only give it minimal attention. There's a good joint initiative between Derbyshire police and the Peak Park, so you may have seen the fruits of that.
South Yorks is a different matter sadly......
jh
Wasn't really criticising the police, (for once in my life). Dealing with misuse of byways is a massive project and the police can only give it minimal attention. There's a good joint initiative between Derbyshire police and the Peak Park, so you may have seen the fruits of that.
South Yorks is a different matter sadly......
jh
In reply to fxceltic: They are not a NFP, but a Non-departmental Public Body, ie a devolved agency of the state: 100% of their funding comes from taxpayers. Donating to them would be bizarre, like donating to the DVLA or something, presumably they can't accept it anyway.
To John,
I don't see any reason why off-roaders can't be banned from eg The Causeway. If urban streets can be pedestrianised, inappropriate use of green lanes can be controlled too.
To John,
I don't see any reason why off-roaders can't be banned from eg The Causeway. If urban streets can be pedestrianised, inappropriate use of green lanes can be controlled too.
In reply to fxceltic:
Speaking as an NE employee actively engaged in trying to resolve similar issues in another area we do give a sh*t but too often get bogged down in procedures and red-tape. There is a willingness to prosecute but to do that the perpetrators have to be caught first. We are currently negotiating with the police to encourage them to be more proactive re: this type of offence. You don't tend to hear about succes stories either.
Sorry to hear about the reaction you got to the donation scheme - who did you contact? - it seems you got the stuffy, civil service, type response of old.
Speaking as an NE employee actively engaged in trying to resolve similar issues in another area we do give a sh*t but too often get bogged down in procedures and red-tape. There is a willingness to prosecute but to do that the perpetrators have to be caught first. We are currently negotiating with the police to encourage them to be more proactive re: this type of offence. You don't tend to hear about succes stories either.
Sorry to hear about the reaction you got to the donation scheme - who did you contact? - it seems you got the stuffy, civil service, type response of old.
In reply to john horscroft: Just wanted to add that as a responsible occasional 4x4 greenlaner (I own a 1976 Series 3 109" and a 1997 110 defender both running on 100% recycled veg-oil), I will and do activily act against illegal 4x4 driving and also approach drivers and suggest they stick to the GLASS guidelines.
I should add that i am no longer a paid up member of Glass or of my local landrover club as i only very rarely drive off road these days, but i do actively help with maintaining several green lanes in the area using my own time and resources.
Nothing sickens me more than the 'bad' element of 4x4 drivers. Any bans don't stop them as they already have no-regard for the 'rules' and will continue to dissobey them whatever happens. Bans only effect the responsible people
Obviously quite a bit of damage is done by farm traffic which should not be confused with responsible 4x4 drivers. Driving onto open moorland or driving on boggy lanes are tearing them up is completely out of order, and i personally would speak to, photograph and report anyone i saw doing this.
I just want to plea to all readers that they keep a level head in their view of 4x4 drivers. There is so much bad press caused by such a small number of people
Great to see this discussion on here and great to read the views of everyone.
I should add that i am no longer a paid up member of Glass or of my local landrover club as i only very rarely drive off road these days, but i do actively help with maintaining several green lanes in the area using my own time and resources.
Nothing sickens me more than the 'bad' element of 4x4 drivers. Any bans don't stop them as they already have no-regard for the 'rules' and will continue to dissobey them whatever happens. Bans only effect the responsible people
Obviously quite a bit of damage is done by farm traffic which should not be confused with responsible 4x4 drivers. Driving onto open moorland or driving on boggy lanes are tearing them up is completely out of order, and i personally would speak to, photograph and report anyone i saw doing this.
I just want to plea to all readers that they keep a level head in their view of 4x4 drivers. There is so much bad press caused by such a small number of people
Great to see this discussion on here and great to read the views of everyone.
In reply to Richard J: north wales police do great work with illegal off-roading. And often route the police chopper to fly over know problem areas on route to other call outs.
In reply to Stig:
The truth is that 4x4's can be banned from any Byway with the use of a Traffic Regulation Order. However, it's a contentious move and there would have to be a very good reason for banning motor vehicles from what is effectively a public road.
jh
ps are you the real Stig? Any chance of a driving lesson?
The truth is that 4x4's can be banned from any Byway with the use of a Traffic Regulation Order. However, it's a contentious move and there would have to be a very good reason for banning motor vehicles from what is effectively a public road.
jh
ps are you the real Stig? Any chance of a driving lesson?
In reply to Yorkspud:
Ha! You fell right into my trap Yorkspud!! Now we've got you on. what can NE do about wilful destruction of a SSSI on Houndkirk Moor?
cheers
jh
Ha! You fell right into my trap Yorkspud!! Now we've got you on. what can NE do about wilful destruction of a SSSI on Houndkirk Moor?
cheers
jh
In reply to jaswa:
Excellent response jaswa. Thanks for contributing. I feel that there's a strong perception that all 4x4 drivers are irresponsible, and I know that's not true.
jh
Excellent response jaswa. Thanks for contributing. I feel that there's a strong perception that all 4x4 drivers are irresponsible, and I know that's not true.
jh
In reply to john horscroft: I'm afraid that the link you just quoted seems to rather miss the point about mountain bike erosion.
Even if mountain bikers and walkers cause broadly comparable damage to any trail per pass (which seems intuitively correct to me), mountain bikers will collectively cause MORE damage as the average biker travels far further than the average walker or climber per visit or day out.
So from my point the case against mountian bikers is pretty incontrovertible, they cover more distance, THEY CAUSE MORE EROSION. However, the real questions are whether that erosion is either unsustainable or disproportionate and that can only be answered in the context of individual locations.
Even if mountain bikers and walkers cause broadly comparable damage to any trail per pass (which seems intuitively correct to me), mountain bikers will collectively cause MORE damage as the average biker travels far further than the average walker or climber per visit or day out.
So from my point the case against mountian bikers is pretty incontrovertible, they cover more distance, THEY CAUSE MORE EROSION. However, the real questions are whether that erosion is either unsustainable or disproportionate and that can only be answered in the context of individual locations.
In reply to Mark Stevenson: An interesting argument, but you need to take into account that a good proportion of that extra distance will be on tarmac or trails similar to green lanes/permissible tracks etc. Also, if you make the broad assumption that mountain bikes stick to bridle paths, then bike erosion is largely confined to those, which should be better able to take the impact, than if it was on footpaths.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Interesting argument there Mark. However, you're effectively weighting the argument by taking into account how far a MBer travels. I'm therefore within my rights to counter that owing to the enormous number of walkers compared to MBers, that they cause more damage. However, that's not the argument I would make. I feel the crux here is that walkers and MBers should make common cause. We both endeavour to enjoy quiet recreation in the countryside. How far we go or how many of us there are should be utterly irrelevant.
cheers and thanks for making me think!
jh
Interesting argument there Mark. However, you're effectively weighting the argument by taking into account how far a MBer travels. I'm therefore within my rights to counter that owing to the enormous number of walkers compared to MBers, that they cause more damage. However, that's not the argument I would make. I feel the crux here is that walkers and MBers should make common cause. We both endeavour to enjoy quiet recreation in the countryside. How far we go or how many of us there are should be utterly irrelevant.
cheers and thanks for making me think!
jh
In reply to john horscroft:
The Engineer (hidden deep inside me) says that the appropriate unit of measurement for comparison purposes would be hours of leisure per person, hence, we are trying to minimise the erosion per person-hour of fun.
The Economist (which thankfully I'm not) guesses this is on the right track, but probably cash and some measure of utility ought to be included...
Time for me to head off for a life, and a cup of tea...
Y
The Engineer (hidden deep inside me) says that the appropriate unit of measurement for comparison purposes would be hours of leisure per person, hence, we are trying to minimise the erosion per person-hour of fun.
The Economist (which thankfully I'm not) guesses this is on the right track, but probably cash and some measure of utility ought to be included...
Time for me to head off for a life, and a cup of tea...
Y
In reply to john horscroft:
Co-operate with and encourage the police to catch someone! But I'll ask what they're (we're rather) doing in this region(East Midlands). If it was A few miles further North I could have given you a better answer.
Co-operate with and encourage the police to catch someone! But I'll ask what they're (we're rather) doing in this region(East Midlands). If it was A few miles further North I could have given you a better answer.
In reply to john horscroft:
"While I can sympathise with your desire for peace and quiet in the countryside, let's be realistic. Certain trails have always been open to all traffic, to suggest otherwise is futile. There's not a snowball in hell's chance of a total ban..."
well the Yorkshire Dales National Park took the iniative
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/4210582.stm
think this is being tested in the High Court but at least they are trying
the noise has no place in a National Park.
"While I can sympathise with your desire for peace and quiet in the countryside, let's be realistic. Certain trails have always been open to all traffic, to suggest otherwise is futile. There's not a snowball in hell's chance of a total ban..."
well the Yorkshire Dales National Park took the iniative
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/4210582.stm
think this is being tested in the High Court but at least they are trying
the noise has no place in a National Park.
In reply to antigee:under that argument, we should ban climbers too, clanking gear, shouting to partners, all noise which doesnt belong in the national park.
In reply to dannym2710:
that would be an extreme extension of the argument against excess noise
its a matter of scale as you are probably well aware
that would be an extreme extension of the argument against excess noise
its a matter of scale as you are probably well aware
In reply to dannym2710: all relative really.i doubt that i could hear my landy from further than about 150 yards, usually run on tickover off road, and only really gun it to get up something ocassionally
In reply to dannym2710: I think the noise issues wrt trail bikes, which are a real cause of noise polution, however you cut it.
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