UKC

I watched (I am ashamed to admit) a programme yesterday called Life of Grime which followed environmental wardens in Edinburgh. One of their jobs is to issue fixed penalty tickets to people who throw a cigarette butt away on the street, Is it just me is or is thisgoing a bit far... I don't smoke and I don't find throwing things onto the street very appealing, but in comparison to other crimes it seems rather over the top IMHO. The people's details were taken and there were given all the bla bla about "whatever they say may be given in evidence..." I was very amused in the light of the many other social problems we are facing such as vandalism, racially motivated hate crimes, domestic violence, violence against teachers, nurses and other public workers.

What do yo think?

In reply to Heike:

It is anti social, but seems like a waste or resources, when as you say, there are far worse things to be worrying about.

In reply to Heike: i think its all a pile of Poo .. 50 quid for a butt ... just make sure you put it in the bin if in ed

In reply to Heike: Aren't you originally from Germany? Do you go back there sometimes and think - "god - the UK is just full of litter! yuck!" I've only been to Berlin but that seemed very clean and definitely Sweden and Finland are much much much cleaner than the UK. It's that zero tolerance thing. If you use harsh measure to stop people throwing a way ciggy butts then maybe people stop dropping their crisp packets and drinks cans as well.

I guess as long as it isn't the police chasing litter louts its not the end of the world.

In reply to Duncan_S:

If its a waste of resources, just raise the fine. maybe make it 500 instead that should solve the problem.

In reply to TobyA:
No, it's not the end of the world (but that wasn't what I had implied) and it would be nice if it was a little cleaner, but it seemed rather draconian too me. Reminded me a bit of Singapore where you get 50 lashes if you spit your chewing gum on the road..

In reply to Heike:

litter is a problem ... people all aound need educating ... crag, beach clear ups help..


top of tryfan must rank as one of the higests dumps in th ?UK ?

In reply to TobyA:

Yep the UK is full of litter, even the places which seems rather free of it is a mess compared to the nordic countrys.

In reply to Heike: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4968534.stm

In reply to Heike: but once the word gets out that you will be fined for dropping cigarrette ends, it will make people think about their litter. Many people dont even seem ot see fag ends as litter, so maybe shock tactics are needed.

In reply to Ian McNeill:
I think you are right, education would be good, but I wonder if fining will achieve that. Punishment doesn't always help education...

In reply to Heike: I can see how it might seem like a bit of a waste of resources, but I think it's fair (especially as it's environmental wardens doing it, not police). Not only do some people seem to have a blind spot when it comes to dropping litter but would probably admit that it's bad if you asked them, there seem to be even worse types who just don't seem to consider cigarette ends as litter. I'm not lumping all smokers in here - I know some very considerate ones - but fag ends are a major component of litter and need to be reduced in number.

I wish I'd seen the programme - I would have loved to have seen the faces on the inconsiderate twunts when it sunk in that they were being fined £50 for their foul ways.

In reply to Ian McNeill:


Nah! You need to visit Ben Nevis. Crap tucked under every boulder.

In reply to Heike: I support it, what I did not support was the attitude of the wardens, whose outright goal as to issue fixed penalties, and who were dissapointed when they didn't manage to catch people. It should be about prevention, not punishment - the latter is only there to try and create the former.

Cheers,

FT.

In reply to Heike:

Seems fair enough to me. Scum drop litter. Summary execution might be better.
They could get to work on the walkers of incontinent dogs on the cycleways too.

In reply to DaveR:
jeez, that's funny - i better be careful when eating my crisps in case a crumb drops on the floor

In reply to Heike:

I agree with the fine I'm afraid - litter is litter. Where do smokers who throw their butt's away think they are going - a £50 fine might start to make people think a little more carefully?

And why should someone else have to clean up their mess (council workers or cleaners for example).

And what about those smokers who use the ash tray in their car and then pull into the local B&Q car park and empty the contents of the ash tray out! What is the logic in that....then again, what is the logic in smoking

In reply to Route Adjuster: or carefully put all their Mcwrappers into its McBag and then leave it behind on the McCarpark(TM)

In reply to Heike: Now we've got the smoking ban, alot of pubs up here have installed little ashtry thingies outside for the benefit of anyone having to stand around outside smoking. Surprisingly, they actually seem to be getting used!!!!!

In reply to toad:

Yup, bizarre behaviour in the extreme.

In reply to toad: One day when I was feeling courageous, I saw a youth drop his MaccyD's straw cover on the pavement, so I picked it up, ran up behind him, said "I think you dropped this" and rammed it down his shirt collar (then ran off). Ah, that was fun.

In reply to Heike:

As long as it's not a witch-hunt and everyone who litters gets fined £50 for it...

(But I doubt the government will invest as much money across the board)

In reply to TobyA:

Its nothing to do with zero tolerance, it is to do with social attitudes in those countries and was is/isnt socially acceptable behaviour. I dont drop litter, and the reason is that I dont find it acceptable. If I did think it was ok to do, the threat of the government issuing fines would not change my behaviour.

In reply to TobyA:

If you use harsh measure to stop people throwing a way ciggy butts then maybe people stop dropping their crisp packets and drinks cans as well.
I doubt people will make the link and stop general littering if they're that way inclined anyway.

Is penalising general littering enforced? Do people know it is? Are people fined for it?

In reply to Heike:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4968534.stm

In reply to Richard Horn:
agree and it starts in childhood. the amount of parents i see turn a blind eye to their sprogs littering is mind boggling, probably indicative of our declining social standards. however there comes a time when getting draconian seems the only way to go.

In reply to Matthew B:

"Hilary Buckland, of Orchard Way, Luton, threw a Cheesy Wotsit into the road and was spotted by a council official who thought it was a cigarette butt."

Laughable. Is that a real story?

It would be great if the goverment applied the same level of enforcement to ALL littering but they currently seem inclined to be making an example of smokers and only smokers.

I live in England but am well aware that the smoking ban is enforced in Scotland and Ireland yet I've no idea what the general littering laws and penalties are.

In reply to Jon Hemlock:

I have v . little sympathy for savages who litter. It might learn `em and they may pass a sense of social responibility on to their offspring. though that`s probably asking too much.

In reply to Jon Hemlock:

Well the smokers didn't give a sh*t what effect their smoke was having on people so even if they are being picked on I'm inclined not to give a toss.

In reply to Heike:

Personaly I think the littering bastards deserve the fifty quid fine. And when they ban smoking in pubs they should put an enviromental warden outside every pub and charge £100 for every tab.

Also I think chewing gum litterer's should be targeted, yes witch hunted if you like. It's about time this shit hole of a country was cleaned up.

In reply to Heike:

I think it's about bloody time. Chucking a cig butt on the floor is no different to a crisp packet or burger tray - it's all littering, and its disgusting.

and good god, don't I sound like a little Hitler...

In reply to graeme jackson:


That's right --

Leave no turd unstoned.

In reply to Alan Stark:


Speaking of which, the pavements in Granada in Spain are pretty bad for dog poo. At least in the UK the message to scoop the poop seems to be getting through to most dog owners.

In reply to Heike: I pick up litter from my garden and the street outside my house every day because a few antisocials can't be bothered to do the right thing with it. If I was able to charge, for the time I spend doing it, the annual cost would be enormous. Imagine the cost to councils, ie council tax payers, you and me, around the country, of picking up all the mess these people leave. We have had years of public education on the issue. The same people show no respect for the countryside. They empty ashtrays out of their cars. They are so arrogant they think someone else should run around cleaning up their mess. If they behave the same at work then they probably work in companies that pollute the environment. A few people are ruining the country for everyone. They have proven resistant to reasoned argument. Its time to create an incentive by making the polluter pay for the clean-up. Perhaps the chance to save £50 will be enough of an incentive to make Scotland's litterers clean up their own mess.

In reply to Heike: The 50 quid fine should be for smoking in the first place. In my opinion.

In reply to Heike:
being caught and given a punishment in proportion to the offence is fine

if the rules allow no flexibility and stories of disproportionate punishment for minor offences become common then respect for social rules falls. The aim of behaviour is not to be fined rather than to live well.

this is insidious. My own respect for rules (held for a long time) has been impaired recently by receiving disproportionate punishment when I have attempted to stay within the law but made a factual mistake about the time.
I didn't overstay my time in a legal parking spot - in fact I spent 15 minutes of my lunch hour looking for a legal spot. I even went back to my car to set the disc time when I realised I hadn't set it. But I was wrong about the actual time so that when I came back 20 minutes later I received a £60 PCN

Now I see the social rules as my enemy

In reply to Heike:

What's a racially motivated hate crime?

In reply to Anonymous:


So 'society' has to act proportionately but you can overreact?

In reply to Anonymous:

That was very silly of you. Maybe you should ask NASA to employ more satellites permanently observing your legal activity.

In reply to Heike: the council have got a cheek! there is a sever shortage of proper rubbish bins in glasgow (inc ones which take cigarettes) also they only collect your wheelie bins ONCE a week, The Glasgow City Chambers f*ckers are on my list of things to nuke once ive finished enriching uranium in my loft.

In reply to scurve:


Don't be siily. Do you really think NASA would do that?

In reply to Heike:
fag ends, gum, fast food crap all get dropped and in a lot of cases it's automatic - watch kids dropping stuff - it's one action: open packet remove contents drop wrapper, all in one - they don't think about it for a second. You don't stop it with ad campaigns, you stop it by taking their money off them - something they do care about

In reply to Rid Skwerr:


believe that if you like

but your logic and interpretation is flawed

IF society acts DISPROPORTIONATELY then people do not respect rules

In reply to toad:

you also do it by telling them that the wrapper they are throwing away is lighter than the contents they have inb their mouth, as I did on snowdon to a kid. He picked it up and put it in his sack.

In reply to Erik B: you fill a wheelie bin in a week? mines only half empty at the best of times and here they empty it once a fortnight

In reply to scurve:

it was not silly. That day I was under a great deal of pressure. Despite being late I still took time to find somewhere to park legally, I still returned to my car to set the disc. I was back in 20mins in a 1 hour allowed time.

Being in a rush I mistook my time of arrival as I forgot I was in town at a time that was unusual for me. Pressure of time

penalty of £60 is disproportionate

In reply to toad: thats fine if you are rich enough to have a house and not a flat

In reply to Heike:

Dear Heike

This is the same lot that throw people out on the streets and call it Care in the Community. I would lock the Politicians up and charge them with a Crime against Humanity.

Norrie

In reply to Erik B: If you live in flats the council should provide 1 bin per flat. They do in liverpool. have you tried contacting them and asking for an extra bin if more than 1 household are sharing one?
i have moved now, and only get the bin collected once a fortnight, recycling goes on the alternate week.

In reply to Heike: I agree with all those on here who think the fine is perfectly reasonable. I get a bit fed up with the way that littering is seen as a 'minor' or 'trivial' issue. It's disgusting. Having been climbing a few days ago and seen a generally unused quarry suddenly covered in bottles, empty tin cans, plastic bags etc (the result of probably one camping trip?), I feel the only way forward is to introduce more 'stick', because the 'carrot' of 'Keep Britain Tidy' stickers hasn't worked. It now seems quite normal for many people to routinely chuck their crisp packets, cigarette ends, lager cans etc on the ground as they walk (even in beautiful settings), or out of their car windows as they drive. I still get angry when I remember some people having a picnic on the moors by a lake a few years ago. Afterwards I went over and couldn't believe the carnage - used Pampers, bottles, cigarette packets etc. How on earth people can visit places of natural beauty and desecrate is baffles my comprehension.
Time that schools, parents, local councils, pressure groups, the general public and government all worked together to make littering as unacceptable as drink-driving or smoking in public places.

In reply to Heike:
>Reminded me a bit of Singapore where you get 50 lashes if you spit your chewing gum on the road..

Did you see any gum on the streets?

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

Very Old Testament of you but I get your point.

How about if the police caught a heroin addict who stole your car stereo to feed his addiction?

Would you have him left to cold-turkey in prison without any counsel?

In reply to Heike:

Now this is a bit heavier

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4968534.stm

incidently need a lot more than removing wotsits to tidy up Luton, tac nuke possibly

In reply to dissonance:

that takes the cheese a bit far - and boy a record in it the most expensive wotsit ever -- she should get it on that darn auction site people will pay sillly money ... for anything with history

In reply to Marc C:

Brilliantly put. Marc C for PM!

In reply to Fume Troll:

Could not agree more.

me and the missus had a big falling out over this. I do agree with what they were doing but not the way they were doing it. I don't think the wardens showed themselves in a very good light. Did they join to sort out litter/environmental problems or to become little Hitlers having competitions to issue as many tickets as they can?

Litter is of huge importance at all community meetings i've attended but this is not the way to go about it. They employ wardens who they can't afford to employ. How do they afford it ? By ensuring the wardens have no discretion and pay for their own wages through fines.

My job used to entail giving out tickets. I always made sure i spoke with someone first to get an idea of their reasoning and attitude before deciding on action. If i honestly thought they had got the message without further enforcement then my job was done.

Education is the way ahead with enforcement as a secind measure.

In reply to Marc C:

yes I tend to agree with you, but there are degrees of offence and sanctions should match the offence and persistency of offending.

"Doasyouwouldbedoneby"

In reply to Marc C:
I feel the only way forward is to introduce more 'stick', because the 'carrot' of 'Keep Britain Tidy' stickers hasn't worked.



As you quite rightly point out there has been very little in the way of REAL investment in education. Your point about drink driving and smoking is quite right. How have these been achieved? EDUCATION not enforcement. The change in attitude towards drink drivers and smokers has come about because of a concerted effort by various organisations, including Govt, to make it socially un-acceptable.

The vast majority of smokers who chuck their fags on the floor would not chuck crisp bags etc on the floor. They don't see what they are doing as littering - i never did when i smoked.If the wardens had gone to people explained the new laws and given them something (like the special paper you can get so you can stub the fag out in your hand wrap it up and put it in your pocket ) to stop the problem then that would be better.

In reply to Heike:

Litter is a problem and a national disgrace. We have become one of the filthiest countries in the world, because most people simply don't care. We have had anti littering laws for many years, but until recently they haven't been enforced. The fines have to be draconian to make people sit up and think about this anti social behaviour.

I think the same is true of these "minor" offences, the only way to get to this core is by threat of loss of something they care about more than litter - their money

In reply to Heike:

Can't really expect the addicts to put burning fag ends in their pockets like sweet wrappers can we?

The butt police should wear built in ashtrays in their hats for smokers to safely put their cigs out in. Or maybe some of the govt tax on ciggies should pay for better packets with metal lined compartments for the butt ends if they are going to make dropping them an offence?

In reply to tallbloke: Asda were giving away, in conjunction with liverpool city council, special little containers which you use to put out your cigarete and store the butts in. So, yes you can expect people to put their butts in their pockets. The containers were smaller than a fag packet, so no hardship to carry.

In reply to ceri:

Old film containers are handy for butts, as are the packet you finished last and is now ready for throwing away with the rubbish in it.

In reply to sutty:

I remember a time when certain people carried pocket ashtrays for such situations.

http://www.buttsandgum.com/

http://www.fakefags.co.uk/category_modernashtrays.asp

http://www.roll-ups.co.uk/ishop/879/shopscr2653.html

If you happen to sell them it's a good time to get your marketing info onto the streets...

In reply to ceri:

Most people gtting fined in London ,ay find Liverpool a bit of a journey for an ashtray, but it's a good idea. Any metal tin would do, smokers would get the added benefit of realising that they are pretty disgusting things to have to have around you too....

In reply to tallbloke: well, this capital of culture is going to their heads here, theres posters on bus stops sbout "however you dress it up, its still litter", and the butt-bins etc. Here, they are into fining dog owners who let their dogs shit in the street and dont clean up- which, let's face it, is a lot more disgusting.

In reply to toad:

Your point has one minor problem with it. People breaking the law do not expect to be caught - that's why they do it.the Death penalty is the ultimate deterrent you would think yet there are hundreds of people on death row in the States. You get a hell of a sentence for bank robbery but people still do them - because they think they won't get caught.

Potential drink drivers do not think " I'd better not do this as i will have problems getting insurance in the future" as they drunkenly stagger towards their car. They either think that they won't do it as they will get grief off friends/family etc or they feel they won't get caught and do it.

This is obviously a very simplisitc example but the basics are right. The change in drink driving is because people will now grass you up or take your keys off you or give you grief for doing it as it is now ant-social.

This is what needs to happen with littering. If people got grief off passers by or friends and family for littering they would stop.

Fining people does not really work - do speed cameras stop people speeding again ? Possibly for a short while before they go back to their usual standards. Same with littering

In reply to Heike:

I gave up smoking just about 2 months ago and looking back it's funny to think about my own attitude to fag ends as litter. In general littering really appals me and whenever I see it my usually calm and liberal attitude seems to give way very easily to fantasies of vigilanteism and the harshest possible punishments for offenders.

In the case of my own cigs in recent years I used to assiduously stub them out and put them in the nearest bin or, if none was handy, back in the packet alongside my remaining cigs (Yeah, I know, disgusting). For many years, however, I used to operate double standards. I would take fag ends home if I was out climbing or in the country, but convinced myself it was OK to leave them lying around in city streets, at bus stops and on railway station platforms. Even now when I see someone leaving fag ends in the street it just doesn't enrage me the way other littering does.

For the smoker, cigarettes are the punctuation of life. Smoking gives definition, lustre and drama to routine events. Stubbing out is an important part of the whole picturesque ritual. Grubbing about on the floor and putting a fag end in a bin or in your pocket just takes the shine off it I'm afraid. Another good reason to stop.

In reply to Heike:
The next time you stop at traffic lights in a car, or a motorway junction, look out of your window onto the floor. You will see thousands of cigarette ends. Littering is littering no matter how small and I bet that individual had thrown hundreds if not thousands of cig ends on the floor. Fine them all is what I say. Cleaning the streets isn't cheap.
Oh, and don't get me started on the idiots who spit their chewing gum onto the floor!

In reply to Heike:

By the way while we're on the subject of Britain being a bad place for littering I was suprised on a recent trip to France how much litter there was at Buoux. In particular there was a real problem with turds and toilet paper at the bottom of the crag. Not nice.