UKC

I've never had a problem with beggars before. The vast majority I've encountered practice their trade in a quiet and respectful way. They sit around with a recepticle and perhaps a sign making it easy to donate if you feel so inclined or easy to ignore if you don't. They never seemed to stay in the same place for too long for the simple economic advantage that that moving regularly and getting new customers gives them.

Unfortunately government and councils have decided to intervene and as usual have made things worse for everyone. Traditional beggars have been outlawed and replaced with clean and tidy professional beggars. How nice ... NOT.

These legitimate 'professional beggars' have really been p*ssing me off recently.


1. Big Issue sellers

Every time I go to my local supermarket now I get accosted by a Big Issue seller. The first few weeks it didn't bother me but as weeks turn into months I'm getting really sick of having to say 'no thanks' every time I want to get a bit of shopping. His reply is always an extremely insincere 'Thank you, have a nice day'. Why doesn't he F off and go somewhere else sometimes? The reason is that in the centrally controlled Big Issue system the sellers are forced to stay in one spot where they alone can sell their papers. How boring! How annoying! I never buy a Big Issue simply because I don't want one. Unlike traditional begging buying a Big Issue means your caught up in a wasteful industry which is part of the reason the world's forests are so depleted. If this guy was just begging old skool style I would sometimes give him some cash.


2. Proxy Beggars

The other begging that goes on in Sheffield city centre is done by proxy. By that I mean the people who actually need the money aren't doing the begging. Instead they have paid professionals doing it for them so it can be called 'charity' instead of 'begging' which apparently makes it respectable. Perhaps this form of begging is permissible because participants are under state control and are issued with permits, forms and the general red tape.

These people are far more in your face than the traditional beggar having been trained to use the most aggressive sales techniques and probably have targets to meet. They come up and usually try to start some false conversation with you about something before trying to fleece you for money. I usually flat out refuse but on the few occasions where - just to make them go away - I have pulled out a bit of change for them they won't take it! It's like, "Here's 50p, now go away!". "Oh no," they say, "that's not good enough". Instead these greedy b*st*rds want my bank account details so I'm donating every week. I suppose that, unlike volunteers in proper charity like Oxfam, these people are on a regular wage so they need a regular income. Perhaps it's wrong to call them proxy beggars since they are raising money for their pay packet - albeit indirectly. And they're not allowed to take cash because they can't be trusted to hand it over at the end of the day! This is the respectable face of 'charity'. Needless to say they never get anything from me. But unfortunately I now have to put up with their crap on a regular basis.


So bring back traditional begging I say. It's been tried and tested for thousands of years. It's less hassle and at least you know that 100% of your money is going where it's needed and not into the pockets of bloody admin people who are probably richer than you are.

</rant>

In reply to stp:
When I lived in Worcester there was a traditional beggar that use to frequent the high street until one day he was spotted going into the car park and driving out in a nice shiny jag.

In reply to stp: I don't have a problem with big issue sellers, I have a major problem with those that pretend to be Big Issue sellers and I have an EVEN bigger problem with those 'Proxy beggars' you mention. I can't walk from my flat into manchester city centre without being accosted by at least three of them. the worst offenders are NSPCC and Shelter. I do my fair bit for chairty (fun runs and bike rides etc) but I find this type of 'fund raising' tantamount to harrasment.

In reply to graeme jackson:


Or did you read that in the Daily Mail letters page perhaps?

S

In reply to Slugain Howff: its almost certainly one of those urban myths

In reply to stp:
The amount of money professional fund raisers receive from charities is staggering - £136 for each signed-up punter in the case of the British Heart Foundation. There was an article about it on Newsnight recently http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8946145.stm

In reply to stp:
These Big Issue sellers, bar stewards the lot of them!

They should be sat on their arse, watching daytime tv and drinking stella, not trying to earn a living and regain some self esteem. I mean, who wants a work ethic, when you can have dole. Are some people just stupid?

If they really wanted money, they should be out robbing, selling drugs or mugging old people; like the poor or social outcasts have done for years.

I mean, it starts with the Big Issue, but they are not satisfied at that, they want more. Before you know it they are in full time employment and buying their own house. Why can't they be happy with what they've got?

</rant>

In reply to stp:

I think you should have given your post a more relevant title. You aren't talking about beggars, that would be a totally different arguement.

As for Big Issue sellers, part of the problem for people on the streets is that because don't have a fixed address they can't get work. Selling Big Issue lets them work without the need for fixed address and allows them to keep their pride by actually working rather than begging which, while some have no problem with, others really don't want to resort to.
Also, though I don't make a habit of buying them I'll admit, you sometimes get some pretty good articles in Big Issue. Probably worth buying more than the majority of tabloids people pick up that are full of ****.

As for the 'proxy beggars' I think again that's misleading and giving a bad name to beggars.

ps. to person from Manchester above - used to work in town and live there, would walk down Market Street 2-3 times a day and get accosted by the same people EVERY day multiple times. Drives you mad!

In reply to stp:

quick aside,

I now work in Hale. Rather expensive area to live, as is most of the surrounding area.
So why is there a big issue seller in HALE?! How far does she travel to sell them (not very successfully from what I can see)?!

In reply to dread-i:

Too right, what's wrong with people these days. They will be telling us next to decriminalise evil drugs to cut the crime rate and help the police fight 'proper' crime.

In reply to stp:

>
You're Sam in Leeds and I claim my £5.

In reply to Scarab9:
>

some of the girls that do it are quite hot that do it and I'll stop to talk to them for that reason alone. They still annoy the hell out of me and watching that article from newsnight has made my p1ss boil as I knew, but wasn't sure, that this was the case.

In reply to stp: This is a Troll and I claim my £5. A superb piece of work but people just aren`t reacting at the moment, my Stop subsidies to the Scottish Islands was a bitter disappointment, but keep up the good work

In reply to higherclimbingwales & slug:

I lived there. it made the Worcester herald so not an urban myth (or mythter)

In reply to graeme jackson:

1995 or 1996 .

In reply to graeme jackson:


local papers are not immune to repeating urban myths, indeed can be some of the worst offenders.

In reply to dissonance: besides the urban myths, these Chuggers (charity Muggers) should be avoided (where possible) and if you really want to give money to charity don't sign up with one of these people on the street as it was highlighted [on newsnight] that if you leave the agreement too early, you money only serves to line their pockets rather than going to the charity it was representing.

i'll still chat to the good looking ones though!

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

definitely. I have standing order/direct debit to a couple of charities which i did directly, eg via the website.
Someone asks for donations on the street then unless they are waving a cash box around then they can sod off on precisely these grounds.

In reply to stp: You have forgotten all the commercial beggars. You are walking down a perfectly nice road and all of a sudden you find such beggars have built buildings whose sole purpose is to lure you in and beg your money in return for cheap cr@p imported from China.

I think you need to chill out dude!

In reply to stp: I recently spotted our local big issue seller coming out of Waitrose.

Now he may have been buying all the out of date stuff but he did have three Waitrose bags.

Maybe selling the big issue is the way forward!

In reply to EeeByGum:

I'm reasonably chilled out but I just don't like the change that has taken place. Shops don't accost you - I'd hoped that that sales technique had died out as ineffective.

Big Issue sellers aren't actually doing any useful work, especially if they're selling outside WH Smiths, or in any town centre really. It's just that they've got a monopoly on the magazine and the place to sell it. I don't really have a problem with the sellers themselves, though I wish the one I see would chill his sales pitch a bit. I'm getting to the point where I have to psyche myself up now to go past him. I guess it's partly a guilt thing. I'll never feel guilty for not buying something in a shop.

I could complain to the supermarket, maybe get him stopped/restricted, but I'd never be that tight about it.

It's more the system and the fake idea that is somehow morally better when really it's just the same thing.

However I take the point that some Issue sellers can take a bit more pride in it than begging.

In reply to stp:

If you have a problem with a Big Issue seller trying to mug you every time you go to a particular shop or shopping centre tell the manager that you're not coming back again until the seller has either gone or shut up.

Professional beggars can go and make love to themselves.

I never give to individuals, only to charities. Certainly in Edinburgh there is no reason for anyone to be on the streets and begging. Some of those I see are obviously on smack. Than there's one who lives round the corner from me who begged for years but has now stopped probably because he's now receiving an old age pension. There are others who I suspect come into the town centre from the schemes to supplement their dole and then there are the obviously distressed who need professional help. There are also a couple of tramps who do live their entire lives on the street but never ask for anything.

In reply to stp:

I suppose you have a reasonable point about Big Issue sellers, but I suppose we as a society made the decision long ago that those who are homeless are no business of the state. It is therefore left to charities and the likes of the Big Issue to sort the problem out on our behalf.

The alternative would be as I remember from the early 90's where more or less every street in the city centre had an insitu beggar looking absolutely filthy and destitute. Not something I want to see again. Big Issue sellers are not really doing any harm and it is an opportunity for the homeless to get a foothold back into the world we all live in.

I suppose for people like us who have never had to experience homelessness, it is difficult to comprehend how awful it must really be.

In reply to stp:

Of all the trades in England the beggin' is the best
For when a beggar's tired, he can lay him down and rest

I've a pocket for me oatmeal and another for me salt
I've a pair of little crutches tha should see how I can halt

There's patches on me fusty coat and a black patch on me eye
But when it comes to tuppenny ale I can see as well as thee

Me britches they are no but holes but me heart is free of care
As long as I've me belly full me backside can go bare

I've been deaf at Duckinfield and I've been blind at Shaw
And many's the reet and willing lass I've bedded in the straw

There's a bed for me where'er I lie and I don't pay no rent
I've got no noisy looms to mind and I am reet content

I can rest when I am tired and I heed no master's bell
Ya men'd be daft to be a king when beggars live so well

Of all the trades in England the beggin' is the best
For when a beggar's tired, he can lay him down and rest

And a-beggin' I will go
And a-beggin' I will go

In reply to stp:
Mate if you ever travelled to a third world country I think you'd shit your arse out of yer eyeballs, shut the f*ck up you idiot.

In reply to stp:

1 - totally agree. Where I used to work, I used to walk past the same Big Issue seller every lunchtime and got the same "Big Issue" in my ear every time. I even asked him to stop asking me, because I wasn't going to buy one ever, but he carried on. Major PITA.

2 - these are known as "chuggers" (charity muggers). I usually just shake my head as they approach, or ignore them completely. I already support my own selection of charities and feel no urge to contribute to any more.

In reply to EeeByGum:

So charities do a better job than the state? Big Society in action!

In reply to stp:

>Unlike traditional begging buying a Big Issue means your caught up in a wasteful industry which is part of the reason the world's forests are so depleted.

Classic STP.... Now the homeless are also to blame for deforestation. Should they be sourcing sustainable products for their cardboard shelters too?

In reply to LastBoyScout: Would you tell a market trader to stop shouting 'two for a pound', or whatever they shout, because you were never going to buy from him? The Big issue sellers are trying to make ends meet and this means asking people if they would like to buy one. Surely it would have been easier to just ignore his requests rather than wasting your insensitive breath on telling him to stop asking.

In reply to stp:


Define 'useful work'.
They are selling a product, which you may or may not want/like etc. If useful work excludes selling products then an awful lot of people in the economy are a big stuffed

Personally, I find the film reviews good and some of the other content thought provoking.

They have a code of conduct. The one for the SouthWest version is here.

http://www.bigissuesouthwest.co.uk/codeconduct.htm



On what grounds?


No, there is a transaction. The street sellers buy the paper, then sell it at a profit. They have to enter the idea of a business economy, the same as any other business. You as a punter get the paper to read, or line your cat litter tray with or whatever.


Would you say the same thing about an 'evening standard' seller who works on the street with his little booth?


Perhaps your introspection has led you to your final comment - you feel guilt.

We all do about different things...

In reply to stp:


mail order subscriptions are expensive http://www.bigissue.com/product.php?id=28

In reply to stp:


Or you could once in a while stop, ask him how his day's going, make small talk for a moment then buy his magazine. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you wont, at least you can line your recycling box with it. Either way you'll feel a little more relaxed for a few days, he may recognise you and cut you a little slack and at the very least you'll brighten someone's day a little. Total cost ~£1. Seems worth it as an experiment given how stressful you seem to be finding the status quo.

Or yeah, you could have him moved on. You'll probably still feel guilty.

jk

In reply to stp: Professional beggars can be a bit in your face, it's true, but on the whole, they don't cause nearly so much grief, nor cost nearly so much money, as professional bankers.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

No it's not - but I can't find the link. Happened in Sheffield - they were getting 25k a year net if I remember correctly - cos they paid no tax.

In reply to Slugain Howff:

maybe he did, but anyone who hangs out in SE1 in London, near London Bridge Station, will be fully aware of the big rastafarian dude who begs on the street and in the pubs all day every day.

We estimate that he must make at least £100 per day, based on having watching him over a 2 year period. Therefore he makes in the region of £25K per year tax free, not bad.

In reply to fxceltic: fair play to him, I wouldn't sit on a street corner,in a pissfilled doorway for anything less than 40k p/a

In reply to dunc56:

No, you're right. I once saw a beggar get into Ferrari, drive to a helipad, take his helicopter to his private jet and fly off to the Seychelles in it. Absolutely disgusting.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Market traders advertising wares and prices in a market to a wider audience is one thing and I have no problem with that.

Being specifically targetted by someone (there was often no-one else nearby) when I have asked them to stop is harrassment - where's his sensitivity to me? You could say I was saving him unnecessary effort!

In reply to Steve John B:


No - the state does noting. Some charities choose to do something as best they can. Quite different from the state farming out its own responsibilities to charities.

In reply to fried:

Deny reality We did have a local who was out of work and drove a Ferrari - he crashed it one day and killed himself. Guess what he did for a living ?

In reply to dunc56:

Helicopter pilot?

In reply to stp:

At least in South Africa beggars do something to earn your charity. When you park they approach you and offer to guard your car!

The problem is you can't be certain who or what they are guarding it from, but as they have a cap full of coins it always seems wise to accept their kind offer.

In reply to fried: Just out of interest what is your point ?

In reply to dunc56:

Just answering your question.

And what would your point be in trotting out the same ridiculous old chesnut about some beggar earning a fantastic sum of money?

Whether it's true or not, it doesn't define the entire the homeless population.

In reply to fried:

Never said that did I ? It comes to something when people will cynically take advantage of people by pretending they are homeless and in need of help.

Why is it a ridiculous old chestnut ? It happened. Fact. Deal with it.

In reply to dunc56: I think its legally called 'obtaining money by deception'.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

No no, you are confused. That is investment banking

In reply to dunc56: oh yeah, my bad.

In reply to dunc56: this guy would do well in the City..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8012501/Airport-conman-caught-...

In reply to stp:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/07/charity-credit-crunch-r...

Get over yourself. It's not up to the beneficiaries of charitable causes, and certainly not big issue sellers, to hide away just so you don't have to feel guilty when you walk by.

In reply to gazhbo: what you said.

In reply to thin bob: if you can't ot won't give, just say hello like you would do to anyone else. chuggers still irritate me though !

In reply to stp:


You need to use all this anger and aggression! In my local Marks And Spencers they have a magazine rack that seems to have about 10 different gossips mags dedicated to whatever Jordan (Katie Price) has decided to sell to them that week.

Big Issue is somewhat more relevant to the whole wide world than knowing the Jordan had botox injections that made her look even uglier before she married some cage fighter bloke. (Source: front covers of magazines in M&S)

I believe she also used to be married (but not really, honest) to some ex-pop star called Peter Andre (Source: most of the magazines in M&S)

If you want to wage war on a waste of paper, sabotage the printing works where this drivel is printed. You could save an area of forest the size of Jordan's bosoms every millionth of a second.





Try using the words "I don't know my bank details, and wouldn't give them to some random beggar on the streets, anyway, even if I did"

I use a much briefer method, I look them in the eye and shake my head at them. It works, and it's not difficult - apart from the problem of having to say "No" to the really gorgeous ones...






Try having a read of this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/08/the_roma_repatr...

||-)

In reply to Dominion:

How about telling them yes. But instead of filling their form in you're going to go straight home and sign up on the charity's website directly, because they've convinced you its such a worthy cause it'd be a terrible shame for them to have to pay commission on your donations. ;O)

In reply to deepsoup:

No, that's not difficult, either.

It's just that you only really get hassled by "charity muggers" if you engage in conversation with them. It's not difficult to walk past them with a shake of the head.

Surprised the OP doesn't seem to be able to work something that simple out, though...

In reply to Postmanpat:

I'm not sure Sam in Leeds is as bad as that.

To be fair to Sam in Leeds, I can remembering him posting about how when going into a pub somewhere in the Peak District with his Chinese friend, people kept glancing over at them and looking back again in a way which made them feel uncomfortable. Maybe he's not racist, but just doesn't appreciate how difficult life can be for people who are different to him.

Anyway, back to the thread topic...

Cheers
Tim

In reply to stp:

"No thanks mate" and keep walking. Job done.

In reply to higherclimbingwales: When I was growing up back up north, there was a chap who would beg in the town centre every weekend with his dog, one day on the bus home school, he was sat clean shaven in a suit, with a jar of biros, giving them out (no idea). A week later he was in the local rag for fraudulent behaviour, he had a house and a job, he was supplementing his income.

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:



That's not what I'm saying at all. The homeless have had no input into the political decisions that have lead to the current state of affairs. If you're not allowed to beg any more then selling the Big Issue is probably one of the only legitimate options left to you.

In reply to EeeByGum:


Was it really that bad? In Sheffield there were a few but never that many.




Is that because you care about the homeless or because it makes the streets look messy or makes you feel guilty? Where are those homeless people now I wonder? They can't all be selling the Big Issue, that's for sure. Laws on squatting have been tightened up. Where are they now? Better off or worse off?

In reply to Dominion:


Thanks, though my point is not so much a dealing with them on a practical level (although generally I don't like ignoring people before giving them a chance as it seems a bit rude).

It's more about hypocrisy. This kind of begging is basically deemed acceptable whereas when genuinely poor people try to do it for themselves it's not acceptable. Why do we need such mediation between us and them? I neither need it nor want it.

I've never felt threatened by homeless people and, when I have the time, I'd far rather talk to the actual poor person than a student with a sales pitch whose there not because they feel passionate about what they're doing but purely to get wage from it.

In reply to teflonpete: The one's I have encountered pester and follow you for about 10 yrds which makes ME feel rather uncomfortable. So, its not hard to think there are more susceptable people out there who will sign up just to not feel uncomfortable/guilty. It has been shown that doing this serves to only line their pockets.

In reply to stp:
Sorry but government figures show more than 80% of beggars in Britain are addicted to drugs or alcohol, do you want to support their addiction?

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I stopped giving money to beggars after something I saw in Aberdeen once; there was a really haggered looking guy sat in the pavement at the top end of Union Street, and just as I was passing him, he moved forward whilst kneeling, to straighten his blanket... As he did so, that flithly old jumper he was wearing rode up his back, and the loose manky trousers the other way... revealing not a manky pair of y-fronts or skin, but a very clean pair of Armani jeans and a Nokia N95 attached to his belt - a phone that was only just out at the time.

If that wasn't enough, the look he gave me as he noticed me staring at the state of the art phone on his belt was of "oh shit, I've been rumbled!"

Maybe stuff like that goes on in Aberdeen because of the money there, but he definitely was not a genuine beggar.

In reply to matthew99:



Addiction to alcohol is probably true of a pretty large percentage of the general population too but we don't like to admit it. It's acceptable when you do it in a posh bar or at home but just not on the streets. It's got nothing to do with caring for the homeless. It's all about image. Homeless drunks are just not good PR for UK plc.

Many years ago on my way to a bar I got chatting to a homeless guy in a doorway. His face was disfigured from where someone had glassed him a couple of year before but he was a genuinely nice guy. I ended up taking him to the bar with me and we both got pished. I think he had a much better night than if he'd stayed 'home' and the alcohol definitely helped.

In Switzerland heroin addicts get give smack for free. It's safer than the street drugs and it lowers the crime rate. Seems like quite a good idea to me.

In reply to Anonymous:

you shouldn't give cash to beggars anyway. give them a coffee or a sandwich but please, please don't give them cash.

I bought a beggar a blanket once after he said he needed money to buy one. Saw him again the next day. He'd sold it.

With sufficient observation from afar, to see what charity the chuggers have on their netball bibs, you can prepare yourself with a scowl and then growl "I hate children/old people/poor people etc" when they try and stop you. They don't expect that I can tell you.

In reply to stp:

Well perhaps but we wouldn't help a member of the general population to support their addiction so why would anyone give anything to a beggar if we are fairly sure the money is going towards their next can of special brew or bag of brown? I quite regularly see beggars in Embra who are obviously smacked off their heads.


In Britain they get methadone instead although I agree that they should probably get heroin and not methadone. Further it was certainly the case twenty years ago that alcoholics on the bru got an additional payment to keep them in bevvy, it used to work out at about 4 cans of special brew a day. I don't know if they still get it but they probably do.

In reply to matthew99:

there is no indication of any cause and effect. are people on the street because of addiction, or are they using drugs the same way as the rest of us, to 'lessen the pain' of being homeless?

i would agree with giving food or to registered charities as a preference and i enjoy reading the big issue.

In reply to stp: I am a reasonably level headed individual and to Big Issue sellers and Chuggers I just smile and say no thank you. Is that so hard ????? I think it churlish to ignore people thats all !

In reply to stp:

The Big Issue is possibly more usefull than the flyers and adverts which come through the post?

I find it interesting btw.

Cheers
Tim