UKC

Having recently met and talked to some of the Man Utd firm I'm very interested in reading any quality accounts on the subject. They make it sound so similar to the buzz of leading at your limit with gear below your feet rather than an exercise in extreme inhumanity but having seen too many damaged human bodies through my work I find that line hard to swallow. I've read the (quite good) novel, The Football Factory, written by an insider and Irvine Welsh's bits on the subject (based on experience?) but I gather there are a couple of well written and illuminating accounts out there amid a sea of dross. The films on the subject are seriously shit and lacking in any degree of analysis.


Any recommendations?

Ta, P

In reply to Paul Atkinson:


You think so? Most climbers don't need 30,000 of their mates at their back egging them on before they have the guts to climb...

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

One of the best:

Bloody Casuals by Jay Allan.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bloody-Casuals-Diary-Football-Hooligan/dp/090548941...

Now the landlord of the Ythanview Hotel in Methlick, he's usually happy to talk about his moment of fame!

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

The only book I'm aware of is http://www.amazon.co.uk/Among-Thugs-Bill-Buford/dp/0099416344

Excellently writeen and just what you're after, particularly as Buford fell in with the Red Army.

In reply to niggle:

Good point and the behaviour of the mob is something Buford has some really interesting things to say about.

In reply to Dux:

I worked as a doorman for a while in Aberdeen. We used to get casuals and hooligans of various kinds trying to get in to the pub at the weekend after games. If they got aggressive we just took them inside and split them up - they were then invariably transformed into the meekest, sweetest lads you could hope to meet. We let them go at 20 minute intervals and as far as I remember hardly had any trouble at all.

In reply to Dux:

That said, even in the bad old days, the true hooligan element, especially the various 'crews', were very much in the minority, with most fans being ordinary folk just interested in supporting their team.

In that sense, whilst mob behavour is an important part of the culture of football violence, the figure of 30,000 suggests that all football fans encouraged the violence.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

I got Football Hooligans
by Gary Armstrong at a school jumble sale last year! it is a decade long, live-in, academic study of the Blades. Quite good as it doesn't either condemn or condone.

http://www.hooligansfootball.homestead.com/featuredbook.html#anchor_17095

In reply to Paul Atkinson: mob dynamics aside I think it is fundamentally wrong to ascribe it all to gang mentality and courage in numbers - the physical courage and indifference to personal risk of injury is a real phenomenon and possessed only by a minority - the available outlets in our society are restricted to joining the forces or getting in to hooliganism. I suspect in a different age many of these guys could have been decorated at Arnheim or have stood solid in the front of a square as a squadron of cuirassiers thundered towards them. I don't admire the violence and, despite having grown up in a very violent town and had my fair share of bovva as a teenager (punk in town full of mods) I cannot now identify at all with the desire or even ability to inflict pain and injury on another human being. Some of these people are intelligent and articulate and would argue that they are particpating in an extreme sport with other willing participants and should be left alone to do so without causing any problems for the rest of society. I haven't sorted out the rights and wrongs of it in my own mind, hence the request for edifying books on the subject


cheers, P

ps I've never given a toss about football, lifelong rugby man

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

I have this vague, half-formed theory that most human beings, or maybe men in particular, have this ability to perform shocking acts of violence and/or bravery, given the right circumstances. It's the thing that the drill instructor in Full Metal Jacket is trying to bring out, and it's the thing that helped fuel the genocide in Rwanda, or the Japanese defense of Iwo Jima.

I suspect that the minority you're talking about are those who revel in it.

In reply to brothersoulshine:

A Season with Verona is worth a look - a good insight into the average Italian calcio fans mind.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:


Nah, I doubt it.

All, and I mean without exception, the "hooligans" that I dealt with were a lot of noise and not a lot of action. Confronted alone they were really quite weak and lacked any actual skill at fighting - which I suppose is why they only plucked up the courage to throw punches when they had (very!) substantial support.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Agreed (Niggle's personal experience withstanding). The Buford book certainly looks at the mob dynamic but he also writes about some of the characters who are fearlessly addicted to violence.

In reply to Dux:


They seemed to me to be just interested in getting in a fight - you know, the kind of generally harmless scrapping and shouting that seems to go with football matches and leads to not much more than some black eyes, fat lips and good stories down the pub. I'm not sure any were really interested in getting into a real fight where somebody could be seriously injured and killed. Unfortunately I think the former can escalate into the latter if not controlled or allowed to dissipate.

In reply to niggle:

Again I'd dispute this. there are a lot of blokes who've been drawn to hooliganism precisely because they're very violent and who are fearsome fighters.

In reply to Dux:


Really? I must admit I've never met any.

Actually, come to that I've never met anyone who was both violent and a fearsome fighter. All of the most able folks I've known have been very calm and in control of their skill.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: There are almost 2 types of hooligans - those who only fight with other gangs and not innocent bystanders and those who will fight anyone when in a crowd. The latter are probably topropers as well.

In reply to niggle:

my ex used to work in a pub that was frequented by some of the leeds service crew - he told me some very scary stories about some of them, but, thinking about it, from what he said, they did seem to separate into the very violent (and often mentally unstable), and the fearsome fighters, amongst whom seemed to be quite a few martial arts enthusiasts. Still all sounds a bit scary.

I've never understood why some blokes seem to enjoy fighting - I mean, doesn't it *hurt*?

OP, are the Richard Allen (author) books about hooliganism? I think they're supposed to be classics of their genre.

In reply to CJD:


Well, yeah, but then again doesn't climbing hurt?

I was trying to make a distinction before between the kind of silly scrapping that you often see outside pubs on a friday night (which usually ends with two bloke rolling around on the floor cuddling each other) and serious fighting, and I think it holds true that "violent" or "thug" types tend to fall into the first kind of fighting whereas "dangerous" types tend to go for the second - "thug" types just want to hurt someone whereas someone who's a genuine danger to you will want to seriously injure or kill you.

I refer to my good friend John who's a martial arts teacher in japan, who once said, "you should appeal to your opponent's sense of honour and self-respect. Agree to meet him at a particular place and time. And when he's there then, go and burn his house down".

In reply to niggle:

maybe it's that thing about controlling your rage so it becomes more powerful (the second sort of person) rather than being an out-of-control thug who just lashes out anywhere.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: Try Cass Pennant's book on West Ham's ICF. Tales of meets with Millwall among others.

Not glory days -just the way things were for a while. Usually, those involved were ' consenting' rather than innocent bystanders. Thankfully most protagonists grew out of it and the police got their act together.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: 'Fanatics! power, identity & fandom in football' is very good. It covers the growth of hooliganism in various European countries, esp. Germany and Italy.

'Soul Crew' is also very good(about Cardiff City's notorious hooligan element).

Anyone know if anything's ever been written about Boca Juniors/violence in Argentinian football?

Whatever anyone says, football violence is strangely compelling. I've known several people become involved with various firms, people who lead otherwise perfectly normal lives.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: One of the first, and probably one of the best is Steaming In by Colin Ward. Try to avoid and written by 'top boys' of any particular firm, as they are usually full of one sided rubbish and wishful thinking. Hoolifan is quite good though, well worth a read, as is a lot of Cass Pennants. Avoid anything by that big bald baby called Dougie Brimson too.

In reply to niggle: No offense mate. not sure where you were a doorman (Mothercare perhaps) but you certainly don't sound very streetwise, very naive I would say. I studied traditional and full contact karate for 15 years, late seventies and, 80's and 90's. I reached a high level, but even I know that some of these hooligans would put me on my arse in seconds. As someone has said, it is an extreme sport to some, a contact sport, and there are some talented fighters. All this drivel about being like mice once they are separated from their mates, is just that, drivel.

In reply to niggle:

Most high ranking martial Arts teachers in japan wouldn't last two minutes in a real fight, it really isn't like the Karate Kid you know. For something near reality watch an ultimate fighting match.

In reply to smart guy:

>Most high ranking martial Arts teachers in japan wouldn't last two minutes in a real fight, it really isn't like the Karate Kid you know. For something near reality watch an ultimate fighting match.

You were doing so well until you posted that. LOL!
I nearly pissed myself laughing.
It's quite intriguing this 'hard as nails' crap. I have met a few folk who professed to be involved in football casual activity. The bottom line is that nothing much ever happens, but these muppets spend a lot of cash so while nothing is happening they look the part.
The cops infiltrate all the proper 'firms' and in general prevent most of it from happening simply by standing there.

Davie

In reply to Wee Davie:

Another fan of 'Karate kid' are you. I've been there and done that, how about you? How many high ranking martial Arts masters can you name. I suspect you are some wet behind the ears middle class kid, who's never had a scrap in his life. I however once witnessed a Sixth dan Shotokan karate expert get battered in a Liverpool Night Club. Unless your name is Terry o'Neil, who would be very handy in a fight without his Martial Arts Skills, then I reiterate what I have already said, that most wouldn't last two seconds in a real scrap.

In reply to smart guy:

>I suspect you are some wet behind the ears middle class kid, who's never had a scrap in his life.

You're absolutely right!!!
I never ever get into fights because violence sucks ya dobber!
Now, back to your 'Combat and Survival' mags, there's a good lad.

Davie

In reply to Wee Davie: Never read them mags myself. But thanks for confirming my initial comments/thoughts I made and had about you. Now stick to commenting on things you understand. On second thoughts, given you are unable to name any Japanese masters, what did you find so hilarious about my comments?

In reply to smart guy:

He's fae Paisley.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: thanks for the responses - will check out the books. Most of us have come across dangerous mindless hard as nails psychos - Begbie in Trainspotting types - who will inflict extreme violence at the drop of a hat with no imagination and no regards for the consequences. What fascinates and disturbs me about the football firms is that there does seem to be an element of intelligent relatively normal people who are able to treat it purely as a sport one level removed from rugby or martial arts but with a much bigger adrenaline kick and who confine their violence to the "game" without the random episodes of loss of control in life in general typical of the psychos. They are the difficult people to understand and and identify with and IMHO emphatically not cowardly bullies relying on crowd tactics but skilled practitioners of their own back street martial art - but I can't begin to understand their motivations

P

In reply to Paul Atkinson: It's tribal.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: Leicester Uni has sociology dept with a strong interest in football, sports and violence, sports and masculinity.

It was about 15 years ago since I read their books, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in them:

http://www.le.ac.uk/sociology/research/books.html

http://www.le.ac.uk/sociology/sostaff.html

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Have a go at "The Soccer Tribe" by Desmond Morris. Trys to explain why they do it.

In reply to the various others who have commented on martial arts etc. Mob or crowd mentality is, in any situation, very different to that of the individual. A lot of it has to do with their hormonal response to stimulus. People in a crowd will inveriably do things that are totaly out of character. Look at the various riots that have taken place as well as football hooliganism. All people need is the right stimulation and a cause, coupled with the anonimity of the crowd and they will do some very violent and dangerous things. You will also see that one or two "hot heads" in a group can stir up a violent reaction more easily in a larger group than a smaller one. Why do they do it? because they become addicted to the chemicals and the feelings that their bodies produce when in this "exciting" situation. Same reason we get a buzz out of climbing. Nor-adrenalin and testosterone are probably the most powerfull drugs you can get for free.....

Martial arts are ineffective against a real "hard man", not your local piss head that likes a scuffle after the pub. This type of person is easily dealt with by someone with low level training but the right mindset and is sober (the local bobby). Someone like Len McLean for example would need a very good martial artist indeed to beat him. It is all about "focused brute force". Most martial arts rely on specific styles that need a lot of practice to perfect and also a lot of "nerve and experience" to use against a big lad intent on giving you a kicking. The 99.9 % of people who do martial arts do not have what it takes mentaly to win a fight against a real fighter.

JH

In reply to Paul Atkinson: Cant see the attraction of giving some meathead who's spent half his life chucking plastic garden furniture around a city centre my hard earned cash TBH.

In reply to JH: superb response. As I said earlier I studied both traditional and full contact karate, but agree with your comments entirely.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: try 'awaydays' by kevin sampson..its about tranmeres(!?) dodgy little crew..all stanley knives, weed, smack, samba and trimm trabb from early 80's..he used to be the manager of the farm and wrote for the end, seminal scal fanzine.