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Booster Jab question

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There seems to be some pretty well informed people on here in regards to the CV-19 pandemic so here is my question - 

I was double jabbed (AZN) earlier this year with my last jab being 5 months ago. I am now eligible for the booster (49 yrs old) but have read various opinions on when to get it (6 months after last jab). Should I get it now, or should I wait another month or two?

My personal opinion is to just get it next week unless there is actually some benefit in waiting to 6 months plus?

 Lankyman 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I tried to get mine yesterday, six months to the day since jab two. I was turned away so will probably wait until my appointment time next weekend.

In reply to Lankyman:

Just reading the gvt website on boosters and it seems I can't book until 6 months after last jab anyway...guess that settles it!

1
 cb294 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

In my semiprofessional opinion I would say as early as possible, once the acute immune response to the previous jab has ended. I.e., months not days.

You have to weigh the risk of potentially not getting the full benefit of the third shot (say, only 95% of the protection you could theoretically achieve, but noone knows) against the added benefit of getting the increased protection earlier.

If I had had the choice, I would have asked for three shots three to four weeks and then six weeks apart.

The six months is merely a number pulled out of the hat to keep vaccination demand manageable, similar to the earlier gaps between 1st and 2nd immunization when it was vaccines that were limiting.

CB

 Cog 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

> Just reading the gvt website on boosters and it seems I can't book until 6 months after last jab anyway...guess that settles it!


I read that, my booster was to be just after 4 months but I was turned away. Then yesterday I got an email from NHS Highland saying the gap had been brought down from 24 weeks to 22 weeks.

 jimtitt 19 Nov 2021
In reply to cb294:

> In my semiprofessional opinion I would say as early as possible, once the acute immune response to the previous jab has ended. I.e., months not days.

> You have to weigh the risk of potentially not getting the full benefit of the third shot (say, only 95% of the protection you could theoretically achieve, but noone knows) against the added benefit of getting the increased protection earlier.

> If I had had the choice, I would have asked for three shots three to four weeks and then six weeks apart.

> The six months is merely a number pulled out of the hat to keep vaccination demand manageable, similar to the earlier gaps between 1st and 2nd immunization when it was vaccines that were limiting.

> CB

The position in Germany at least is that the 6 months is because that was the time used in the trials and so is in the approval from the EMA, anything lower than that is an off-label treatment and the doctor is then liable for any after effects. The Germans (well at least the Bavarian government and I'll guess the rest) have taken over the legal risk down to 5 months for the moment so that's what we are getting though this might be reduced further as more get their booster. It's also for all adults here, no age bands.

 Postmanpat 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

  The lady in the booster clinic in which I am now sitting confirms that you can now book a booster from 5 months after your second dose but cannot receive it until six months after.

  I have just received it after 6 months and 2 days. I booked it 2 week ago.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Perfect, thanks! Will book it now for the correct date 6 months from last jab 

 cb294 19 Nov 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

I know, but the question is why the six months were chosen initially. What is the justification? It is certainly at the high end of what makes sense from an immunological POV, and thus presumably has more to do with deliberately stretching the vaccination process for non-scientific reasons.

Such reasons may well be valid. Immunology and epidemiology are not the only parameters that need consideration when dvising a vaccination program. Vaccine availability, vaccination capacity, etc. also have to be taken into account. However, given the infection dynamics we see now this looks like an exceedingly stupid decision. Once vaccine availiabilty became less of an issue and uptake of first vaccinations started slowing down in early summer they should have just started dispensing third shots and extended vaccination to under 18s months before they eventually did (i.e., at the same time as Israel) .

One problem is that the the head of the Stiko is a vain idiot enjoying his own importance way too much, which caused some of the delays we see. How the f_uck did he repeatedly get away with appearing on the telly announcing an upcoming change in regulations for "some time next week"? If the data basis was there for him to make that announcement we all would be better off if he had instead rounded up the required decision makers and made the decision RIGHT NOW instead of enjoying his 15 min of fame on Anne Will or one of the other idiot talk shows

Also, the continuos pandering to the covidiots is biting us in the arse. The current wave is entirely driven by unvaccinated adults, and by an uncontrolled spread in school children who should have been vaccinated in school before and after the summer holidays.

The way politicians world wide deal with essentially scientific problems drives me to despair*. Above I outlined the flaws in the German response, elsewhere governments screwed up in different ways. Right now I cannot think of a single country where I do know something about the covid response and would not have some huge issues to criticize!

Anyway, I will get my 3rd shot soon from a sympythetic GP I know through my sports club, even if this will be a few weeks ahead of the five month rule that does currently apply to me because of my student contact.

CB

* Never mind covid, the idiocy, indecision, and general scientific illiteracy of our beloved leaders with their law degrees is much more dangerous in the context of climate change!

4
 jimtitt 19 Nov 2021
In reply to cb294:

Whatever!

As I wrote it was a decision from EMA and STIKO followed it's recommendation.

"For the latter, the CHMP has evaluated data for Comirnaty showing a rise in antibody levels when a booster dose is given approximately 6 months after the second dose in people from 18 to 55 years old. On the basis of this data, the Committee concluded that booster doses may be considered at least 6 months after the second dose for people aged 18 years and older."

1
 Wainers44 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

We've just had ours at 5 months, 2 weeks. Went to the drop in vaccination centre and they looked carefully at the date but were keen to give us ours even though slightly under 6 months. Really organised,  no waiting. 

We had Moderna booster after AZ original double jab.

 wintertree 19 Nov 2021
In reply to cb294:

> Also, the continuos pandering to the covidiots is biting us in the arse. The current wave is entirely driven by unvaccinated adults, and by an uncontrolled spread in school children who should have been vaccinated in school before and after the summer holidays.

Well, that's just escalated to the nuclear option in Austria with reports emerging of a mandatory vaccination policy - https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-mandatory-coronavirus-vaccination-february/

Nothing good could come of the significant disengagement from vaccination in many countries, but I don't think anything good can come from a mandate such as this either.  I'm so grateful that the people of the UK have engaged so well with vaccination - in particular older people - so that we're not currently facing this rock/hard place decision.  I hope we make it through the winter without having to do so.

Post edited at 11:58
 stubbed 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Studies have shown that 9 months is the optimum time between 2nd and 3rd doses to give the longest lasting protection. But as other posters have said above, you have to weigh that up against the risk of catching covid now.

Studies have also shown some benefit to having a different vaccine for the 3rd vaccination btw.

My rule of thumb is to go with what is recommended by the NHS, since public health concerns have been taken into account along with medical evidence and cost etc so I don't try to work it out for myself.

2
In reply to Cog:

 Though in case others in Scotland are reading the thread ….

The NHS (Scotland) inform website, updated today, (https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/the-vaccines/coronavirus-covid-19-booster-vaccination) are still saying 24 weeks (as indeed does the NHS Highland board own guidance web page still say that)!

“The booster dose can be offered any time at least 6 months (24 weeks) after your second dose and will help reduce the risk of you needing to go to hospital due to coronavirus this winter.”

I got a flu/covid booster vaccine letter for an appointment last week , but it was worded that the covid booster “may be offered if it has been 6 months since the second dose”. I phoned the helpline and the appointment was rearranged to meet the 6 months requirement so I could get the booster.

 elsewhere 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

If you look carefully it's 24 weeks rather than 6 months in Scotland. It may be the same wherever you are.

I'd say get maximum immunity as soon as possible as I've not seen any reported benefit from delay.

We booked ours for twenty five and a half weeks, so we're getting it 3 days early (or 11 days late).

Post edited at 12:17
 jimtitt 19 Nov 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> > Also, the continuos pandering to the covidiots is biting us in the arse. The current wave is entirely driven by unvaccinated adults, and by an uncontrolled spread in school children who should have been vaccinated in school before and after the summer holidays.

> Well, that's just escalated to the nuclear option in Austria with reports emerging of a mandatory vaccination policy - https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-mandatory-coronavirus-vaccination-february/

> Nothing good could come of the significant disengagement from vaccination in many countries, but I don't think anything good can come from a mandate such as this either.  I'm so grateful that the people of the UK have engaged so well with vaccination - in particular older people - so that we're not currently facing this rock/hard place decision.  I hope we make it through the winter without having to do so.

Somebody had to be first! It's more a political decision than scientific i.e whether or not the various governments could make it stick legally and whether they could survive it politically. After all the UK isn't exactly streets ahead of Austria (68.6% vs 64.8%) and compulsury vaccination being discussed at top level in Germany (67.7%). For Stollenburg it's politically easy as he's only caretaker Chancellor, Germany is changing it's government so caution is called for.

6
 Harry Jarvis 19 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> If you look carefully it's 24 weeks rather than 6 months in Scotland. It may be the same wherever you are.

Unhelpfully, one NHS Scotland website has:

'The booster dose can be offered any time at least 6 months (24 weeks) after your second dose'

and of course 24 weeks is less than 6 months, so it's not clear which timespan is 'correct'.

https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/the-vaccines/coronavirus-covid-19-booster-vaccination

 elsewhere 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I can confirm booking after 24 weeks and before 6 months is possible so worth trying if so inclined.

 wintertree 19 Nov 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

> Somebody had to be first!

Well, I would far rather that nobody had to be first.  That would have been much better.

> It's more a political decision than scientific

I would say it's a decision both of medical ethics and of politics, not of science.

> i.e whether or not the various governments could make it stick legally and whether they could survive it politically.

Yes, this is going to be interesting (ugly) to watch pan out.

> After all the UK isn't exactly streets ahead of Austria (68.6% vs 64.8%)

But the devil is in the detail.  And the detail is that the UK has exceptionally high vaccine take up in the most vulnerable to hospitalisation by Covid.  I haven't looked for demographic data for Austria but for other European nations I've looked at, there are a lot of vulnerable people not engaging with vaccination.  Comparing the top level percentages is almost totally meaningless if they're in the region of 60% - a number much lower is an obvious indicator of a problem, a number much higher leaves no room for a problem, but around the middle ginormous demographic differences can lurk in the details.  

> and compulsury vaccination being discussed at top level in Germany (67.7%). 

It is such a shame that it has come to this.

1
In reply to elsewhere:

With my vaccination record they are using 6 calendar months! I was told the actual date that was the earliest I could get the booster on a 6 calendar month basis.

Thinking now I am wondering if there may be complications (IT systems programmed differently for example) and as such the guidance has led to the 6 month/24 weeks being published. Gives health boards the flexibility depending on their circumstances.

 TomD89 19 Nov 2021
In reply to wintertree:

It's more than a shame, it's quite terrifying. 

The lockdown will kill businesses, no doubt about it. But we're numb to that now clearly.

I'm curious to know what the Austrian government plans to do with any citizens that still don't comply despite a vaccine mandate. Any thoughts?

4
 cb294 19 Nov 2021
In reply to wintertree:

I agree, thanks for nothing, covidiots!

Unfortunately our new glorious coalition will include the FDP liberals, who are against all restrictions out of prinicple, because FREEDOM.

You should of course be free to risk your neighbours life and to extend covid restrictions for everybody because you want to party or make money. They should only ever be called the egotistical arsehole party.

CB

2
 cb294 19 Nov 2021
In reply to cb294:

Also, I am sick of politicians who now go around and complain that science did not warn them that a fourth wave was building up, and that it would be catastrophic if vaccination rates stayed low while contacts increased. What have they been doing since May, when this was the single line repeated by all advisers. Answer: There was a federal election to be won, which is easier if you don't tell your voters the harsh truth.

CB

1
 elsewhere 19 Nov 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> I'm curious to know what the Austrian government plans to do with any citizens that still don't comply despite a vaccine mandate. 

Fines. It's public knowledge.

 TomD89 19 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> Fines. It's public knowledge.

It didn't say in the article and it's only 4 hours old, you'll have to forgive my ignorance.

So that's a one off fine or unlimited fines? Bankrupting people into compliance seems ethical, good source of revenue as well.

1
 jimtitt 19 Nov 2021
In reply to cb294:

> I agree, thanks for nothing, covidiots!

> Unfortunately our new glorious coalition will include the FDP liberals, who are against all restrictions out of prinicple, because FREEDOM.

> You should of course be free to risk your neighbours life and to extend covid restrictions for everybody because you want to party or make money. They should only ever be called the egotistical arsehole party.

> CB

Could be entertaining though, the FDP might not have a say in the matter. The Chancellor tells the health minister to make the order and it only has to be rubberstamped by the Bundesrat where the FDP have only one seat. No debate or vote in the Bundestag is nescessary. Even if it was the FDP would be crushed by the other parties, plenty in the coalition just waiting to give Lindner one in the balls for sure!

 Harry Jarvis 19 Nov 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> It didn't say in the article and it's only 4 hours old, you'll have to forgive my ignorance.

> So that's a one off fine or unlimited fines? Bankrupting people into compliance seems ethical, good source of revenue as well.

Unvaccinated people who breach the lockdown rules face fines of up to 500 euros, and anyone who refuses to comply with vaccination status checks could be fined 1,450 euros.

Anyone not paying the fines may be jailed. It's only a source of revenue if people fail to comply - a bit like fines for speeding. 

3
 jimtitt 19 Nov 2021
In reply to TomD89:

It will be a standard fine (according to the Austrian experts) probably a few hundred Euros to start, failure to pay or then comply makes it an imprisonable offence. The smallpox vaccination requirement which was dropped in 1981 carried a maximum fine of €1200.

It's worth pointing out the Austrians aren't dogmatically trying to vaccinate everyone, just adding another push to the waverers, lazy or I'm alright Jack brigade, same as the Germans who are squeezing down on the freedoms the un-vaccinated enjoy, no disco's, no pub, no sick pay if you are off work from Covid etc.

2
 Fat Bumbly2 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Cog:

I got an appointment for the booster, but was then turned away for being 6 days too early. Of course I then disappeared as far as the system was concerned and ended up after several hours on the phone, at the back of the queue.  A common occurrence in the Lothians.

 elsewhere 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Wainers44:

> We had Moderna booster after AZ original double jab.

3rd Dose Vaccinations https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/
Pfizer 1,115,488
AZ 5,291
Moderda 222,062

It looks like almost nobody is getting an AZ third dose, possibly only for those who reacted badly to Pfizer or Moderna?

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Pretty sure you become eligible 6 months and a week after second dose.  I haven’t seen a 5 month period on the NHS site.  You can book earlier than the 6 months and a week but the appointment needs to be after that.

 jimtitt 19 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> Pfizer 1,115,488

> AZ 5,291

> Moderda 222,062

> It looks like almost nobody is getting an AZ third dose, possibly only for those who reacted badly to Pfizer or Moderna?

The recommendation is cross-vaccination if you had Astra Zeneca, you get an Mrna vaccine. Primarily due to the low effectiveness of AZ.

1
In reply to elsewhere:

The published info on the booster vaccine in Scotland is:

“You will be offered a booster dose of either Pfizer/BioNTech or Moderna vaccine.*”

”* AstraZeneca may be given as your booster dose if you have medical reasons that mean you cannot have Pfizer/BioNTech or Moderna.”

 jcw 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Just had mine an hour ago. President Macron decreed it.  No choice either, Pfizer, like the first two. it helps to have someone take the choice and dithering out of your hands. 

 cb294 19 Nov 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

Certainly entertaining, but may you live in interesting times is indeed a curse, at least in politics!

Give me reliable, with a clear vision of how to deal with the key problems, any day!

CB

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

It's been given at 5 months and 2 weeks were I work. I suspect the timescale will shorten further in the run up to Christmas.

 VinnyW 19 Nov 2021
In reply to stubbed:

I had my second jab back in May. I am currently part of a covid study for the ONS and giving monthly blood samples to check for antibobies. I had a test last week (about 6 months after my second jab) and i am still showing positive for anti-bodies. So maybe the vaccination lasts longer then 6 months, maybe i will find out next month if i still have them...

 Wainers44 19 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> Pfizer 1,115,488

> AZ 5,291

> Moderda 222,062

> It looks like almost nobody is getting an AZ third dose, possibly only for those who reacted badly to Pfizer or Moderna?

We were only offered Moderna. It was at the main vaccination centre near Exeter,  and they obviously had others, but no choice for us.

So that's 4 vaccination doses for me in the last 7 months, which is 4 more than in the last 20 years. I feel lucky to have had them, and even luckier that I had absolutely no side effects from any of them. As long as that isn't a sign that they didn't work!! 

 Slackboot 19 Nov 2021
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> I got an appointment for the booster, but was then turned away for being 6 days too early. Of course I then disappeared as far as the system was concerned and ended up after several hours on the phone, at the back of the queue.  A common occurrence in the Lothians.

Strange.... I went for my flu jab. We had made the appointment two days prior. When we got there they said they had run out of it, but they said we could get our boosters instead! They had plenty it seems. I told them I was a month early but they said it didn't matter as the government had made the six month gap shorter.

Thats the North East for you!

In reply to TomD89:

> I'm curious to know what the Austrian government plans to do with any citizens that still don't comply despite a vaccine mandate. Any thoughts?

I'd suggested that any hunters with firearms license could be issued dart guns, and a government bounty scheme started. At the very least any exercise shy vaccine deniers might start jogging between house car shops etc rather than walking slowly, so there are secondary public health benefits too

1
In reply to stubbed:

> Studies have shown that 9 months is the optimum time between 2nd and 3rd doses to give the longest lasting protection. 

How have they managed to show that? Time machine?? 


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