UKC

I can't believe that this hasn't been discussed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-15015790

It must be a long time this there's anything quite as disgusting as this that people are prepared to support and justify.

Utterly sickening.

In reply to KTT:

Agree. Can't imagine how anyone would let young kids do this. A mate of mine (7th Dan Karate, hard as nails) had a stepson, in his late teens/early twenties, who wanted to do it. My mate was horrified. And so was the lad's mum (3rd Dan, no pushover). Thankfully it didn't happen.

Nasty stuff.

Mick

In reply to KTT:

From what I saw and heard they weren't allowed to strike/punch each other. It was just two lads grappling on the floor. Yeah the cage looks a bit strange but not sure that is any worse than a ring. Am not sure of the age limit for boxing but lots of young kids box and that is accepted. Not really sure how this is any worse than that?

To me it looks like the media trying to make a scare story out of very little.

In reply to davo:

Agreed. Must have been a quiet news day.

In reply to davo: They're fighting, looking to cause sufficient pain to cause the other to submit, for the pleasure of adults. in a totally inappropriate situation.

The minimum age for the ABA is 11, the children were 5. To put it in context that's the age that most children start school.

This is a brutal and barbaric exploitation of the children and to say they wanted to do it is probably the same sort of things that pimps would say about their under age wh0res.

That you think that this is no worse than the tightly regulated world of amateur boxing and the media making a scare story out of very little says a lot about your moral standards and to be frank they're in the gutter.

In reply to KTT:

Firstly they were 9 years old, so just 2 years less than the ABA.

Yes they are fighting and are looking to get a submission but this very tightly controlled. Once they tap thet fight stops. According to the article there was no punching, this was simply a grappling contest.

I can't really see any exploitation here. The parents are happy with it, it's a legal sport and the event was sanctioned by the council. I have no idea what link you can make with under pimps and under age girls?

Instead of getting all emotional and angry and suggesting that my morals are in the gutter because I hold a different view point to you. Try to come up with some clear reasons why this is so bad.

Dave

In reply to davo:


Where did you get that information from? The video clearly states one of them, the one that is blurred presumably, is 8.

Take away the cage and put them in a gi and they're doing judo or jujitsu which is taught as young as age 4 and encouraged by most.

I've got videos of me in competitions and the only difference is that the boundaries were the youth centre walls and not a chain link fence and we wore traditional martial artist attire.

MMA has a reputation of being chavvy and teaching kids to street fight. I personally don't like it and think its having a negative effect on 'real' martial arts but as with any sport it goes through peaks and troughs.

In reply to davo:

1. The Metro and BBC were yesterday reporting that children as young as five were involved.
2. This is about one child inflicting serious pain on the other.
3. Encouraging children to inflict serious pain on another is 100% wrong.
4. This is in no way comparable to Judo or schoolboy boxing.

If you can't understand why this is wrong then there's nothing that I can say to

In reply to Nick B, Another One:

Vid states one is 9, to be fair I assumed they both were. As to the ABA age, that is taken from another poster and is not mine. I was just replying to his post.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Bollocks - It's in a Working men's club in Preston - lots of pissed adults getting enjoyment from watching two 8 year olds roll around fighting. Even if no punches were thrown it's wrong in every way.

E

In reply to antdav:

in fact the reason a cage is used in MMA is apparetnly becase it's safer than a ring. the cage stops you falling out onto the ground and breaking your back. MMA rules prevent fighters from grabing the cage and using it as a lever etc (ref will remove the hand if required)

couple of points on the actual topic though
1) it was a mistake, in my opinion, to allow this to take place on an adult bill with paid tickets and alcohol.
2) if this had been done mid afternoon, with no adult headline act, no premium tickets, no booze and no ring girls then i'd be "fine" with it in that it's considerably safer than a game of rugby.

KTT another quality rant sir / madam! but like your "dangerous dogs" somewhat over reacting.

rallymania (of apparently low moral ethic it seems)

In reply to Enty:

That's the main thing that struck me form the video too. I have no idea about the age limits and legal requirements but I'd be surprised if the judo comps and the other disciplines being rolled out as reasons why this is fine are conducted in the same atmosphere where kids of 8 years old are involved.

That said I had to work in a football club's bar a year or to ago when their team were playing away and saw parents egging on kids of no more than 7-8 to scream things like "the ref's a f*cking pedo" at the screen and no-one else there thought it at all inappropriate so I guess we're all just from different backgrounds.

In reply to KTT:


if it is grappling only then it is pretty much Judo (to be precise its sister art ju-jitsu)
Be less painful than boxing to, grappling only really hurts if once a hold is on you try to get out of it.

In reply to KTT:

the fact that its safe does not mean it does not have an adverse psychological effect on these kids. aggresive contact sports should ,in my opinion, have a lower age limit, at least teenagers. its not the same like doing some karate ,just katas and stuff emphasizing self defense rather than winning through aggression.

In reply to rallymania:

I'd broadly speaking* agree with that. The atmosphere it was held in does seem completely wrong to me.


* I find the whole fighting for sport thing not to my taste in all forms but I'm not going to condemn it anymore than I would football.

In reply to davo:

It encourages and glamourises 'fighting', however you want to tart it up.

In reply to KTT:

There's nothing wrong kids having a properly supervised wrestling competition.

What was totally wrong was having it in 'licensed' premises, as a precursor to an adult cage fighting bout, in front of what appeared to an all adult audience that were getting liberally lubricated with alcohol, with scantily clad 'ring girls' wandering about. It is not an environment that young kids should be subjected to - however one does have to wonder about the motives and attitudes of their parents in allowing or encouraging their kids to take part in such an event.

Some well respected local martial arts instructors went on to the TV last night and made exactly the same points.

In reply to Enty:
So it would be OK in a village hall in Tunbridge Wells?

I started judo at a younger age than that as was certainly competing well before 8/9.

Having just watched the video, I can't really see the difference.

In reply to rallymania: completely agree with your points and i too must have a low moral ethic. A cage makes it look brutal but is much less likely to hurt that a 4 foot fall onto concrete or into a wall.

The mistake was the location, saturday afternoon in a sports centre with parents, bottles of pop, sandwiches and the smelly woman from the St. John Ambulance and it would be reported as a great thing for kids to do. You can see the coaches thoughts, give them the chance to show off and have some fun and act like their idols do, someone else should have stepped in and explained the negatives but you dont know the peronality of the coach. Could have looked at the amateur boxing nights and copied them but pushed it a few years too young for most to feel comfortable.

These are watered down rules to prevent injury just like in all martial arts and rugby. This isnt kids going out to hurt each other, its a technical situation where forcing a controlled submission or immobilising the opponant is the aim.

Bumps and bruises are expected and kids generally shrug them off or have a mum hug in many sports. Look up ippon seoi nage or tomoe nage and its obvious that they have the potential to cause more harm that a bit of ground wrestling. Prevent kids from any form of competition and then they hit the magic number and get serious injuries as they havent had any experience in it. Look at the number of adults injured in their first fighting competition.

It was a mistake with the environment but these events happen throughout the country every week. I'm sure when we were kids watching rocky and the karate kid we wanted to be in the ring and these kids got the chance, they wanted to do it, there parents gave permission.

Call it an oriental name and its gets commended, put it on late night TV and its an outrage.

In reply to Nick B, Another One: It's not just about the risk of physical harm, it's the psychological risks and the message that's sent out that's as much of a problem.

Comparing this to rugby or climbing is just ridiculous.

In reply to KTT:

A lot of the martial arts people (and this is a martial art) would claim that this sort of thing allows kids to chanel agression in a suitable enviroment and teaches them to manage their agression.
I've seen little kids doing Cumberland and Westmorland wrestling at village shows, which seems to be a similar thing really, just outdoors.

In reply to KTT: What a lot of claptrap. Most Professional athletes in all martial arts and fightng sports start training and taking part in bouts from a very young age. I'm sure most of them would agree it hasn't done them any psychological harm.

This seems to me to be typical media hyping blown out of all proportion by a few well meaning but misguided do gooders.

In reply to Oceanrower:

How many more people are going to miss the point by a country mile?

You could compare the activity with wrestling (olympic sport) or judo - I did Judo when I was 9.

What's the difference? It's for the fun of the adults not the kids.

E

In reply to KTT:

Have you tried raising it on mumsienet?

You'll probably get a more outraged reaction there.

In reply to tatty112:


Crikey - you really can't see the difference can you?

Anyway - looking at my 5 year old daughter I'm so f*cking glad I'm a 1000 miles away from all that shit.

Out of here.

E

In reply to Oceanrower:

Agreed, I started Judo no later than aged 8 and competed against other clubs. The only difference I can see to this is that the throws we used to get to ground were more brutal. As it was a long time ago and one of our instructors was an old guy who learnt jujitsu in the pre war era before the rule of lawyers some of the locks and techniques he taught us had been dropped from sport judo by then or were high level adult techniques. It was great fun and in the time honoured phrase 'never did me no harm'.

I think the reason the media have made a story out of this is the setting and the people involved and you just have to look at the phrases used in this thread to see it ie 'working mens clubs' 'chavs'

In reply to KTT:

I didn't, if I appeared to it was accidental. The post I was replying to may have done so but I said it's the atmosphere it was held in that concerned me, an atmosphere I consider to be damaging to young kids but that many adults seem to consider normal. I specifically said I don't like any of the combat type sports and as such I refrained from commenting on that aspect.

In reply to Enty: I can see the difference. We don't express outrage at p*ssed up adults cheering on their kids at football/rugby matches.

It's not something I would want my daughter doing but then i'm not a fighter and she's never expressed a desire to do it either. I do take her climbing though and many people may regard that as reckless and inappropriate, but she wants to do it.

In reply to BigBrother:

But if you ignore the hyperbole and stereotyping do you think it was an appropriate atmosphere for young kids to have this match/fight in?

In reply to KTT:

Won't somebody think of the ...oh, right, you are..anyhoo, their bones are dead pliable at that age...what could possibly go wrong...? Plus I'm sure someone will get a prize..maybe not parent of the year , though...

In reply to tatty112:

I've seen parents sent away from matches for being drunk/disorderly at such games, as well as a zero tolerance attitude towards bad language from spectators.

In reply to KTT:
Num Num is going to enter his kids into the Super Heavyweight division

In reply to birdie num num:

Will they fit in the cage?

In reply to KTT: I think watching kids fighting for entertainment is weird.

In reply to Nick B, Another One:
They should do. I keep them in a cage at home.

When I used to Thai Box when I was a teen there were others younger than me and that was more contact than this without guards or padding. Total media sensationism and you bought it just like they hoped you would. Throw the words "Cage Fighting" and you would have arm chair activists outraged up and down the country.

Typical comments from people who do not understand the sport and what they were actually doing - hence why the police have said there is no action to be taken.

Take these same arm chair folk and show them kids climbing rock or up in mountains and they would likely give a similar reaction. I know kids who have got more injuries from playing football than they would ever doing martial arts in a controlled manner.

In reply to tatty112:

I've been coaching U7 - U10 rugby for the last 4 years and not once have I seen a drunk or abusive parent at any training session or matches. I can't speak for football at those age groups but most matches take place in the mornings at weekends so I'd be surprised if there were "p*ssed up adults" at those matches either.


My kids did karate for a little while but never any bouts or competitions. It seemed to be more about self discipline and perfecting moves than hurting other kids to the point of making them submit (at the 8 - 10 age group).

Grockles that think taking kids climbing is reckless...well, we know better don't we.

My boss at work was an amateur boxer up to the age of 15. According to him, schoolboy boxing was rife with corruption. It might be better now.

This childrens cage fighting just looks chavy, corrupt and seedy. I can't see how teaching kids, and cheering them on to inflict pain on each other can be OK.

In reply to KTT:

I don't think it's as bad as it's being made out. The parents were aware of what was happening, the fight event had a licence, the police say nothing wrong has happened and no action is to be taken.

Whilst it's not pretty and, perhaps, not what I would have my young lad doing - if I had one - I wouldn't say that these people shouldn't be allowed to let there children do this kind of thing.

In reply to tatty112:
Do we not, alcohol consumption is rarely an issue at junior games, parents are usually warming their hands with teas and coffees if they are lucky. Abusive parents are being tolerated less and less with the clubs that I have knowledge of taking action against them.

In reply to Nick B, Another One:

I don't think it was necessarily harmful. The kids were brought in for the match and then taken out again. They weren't hanging around knocking back pints themselves. The match was obviously fought within rules that made it certainly no more 'brutal' than other martial arts and was closely refereed. I am sure that to the kids the match was no different to the judo matches I used to compete in and that the setting and 'atmosphere' didn't register at all.

There was an interview with the parents of one of the boys and they came across quite well and I suspect the boy has a much better home life and upbringing than many kids. They obviously train at a club where they learn to 'fight' within rules with discipline just like any other fighting sport.

All the media has got is a short video that they have then constructed a story around to create outrage and prejudice. The broader story about these boys and what environment they grow up in and what effect their involvement in cage fighting has on them isn't shown and hence none of us really know.

In reply to KTT:

The real question is, where was Master Blaster?

WHO RUN BARTERTOWN?

In reply to KTT:
This is just submission grappling, schools accross America have teams and they have plenty of prestige. They also win Olympic medals.

I reckon it might be worth having a look at a few youtube vids of the ADCC thats about to start and you can see what it actualy entails.
Being in a cage is def advantageus compared to a ring, rolling about in a cage you don't want to be falling out! In a hall the mats are on the floor so don't have to worry about it.

A friend of mine is now sponsered to compete in the various grappling tournaments and under no stretch of the imagination is he a violent desensitised thug.

As to the age of the children I started Judo as a child, the only differnce is we wore a Gi (the white pyjamas).

In reply to KTT:

Wow, and in Ireland as well with girls and everything!

All the adults and even the police are just standing there shouting encouragement. They should arrest them all. Animals!
youtube.com/watch?v=Q5Phxs4KkWs&

In reply to teflonpete:

I suspect in the same way that parents who are into cage fighting 'know better' as well


I agree, however I am trying to make the point (probably not very well) that we all have our levels of acceptable and one mans acceptable is another mans unacceptable. I suppose ultimately if the kids wanted to take part in a bout, they have been training and learning properly and the correct safety precautions have been taken then who are we to tut tut at it

In reply to tatty112:


I see your point, and in all fairness, the way it's been reported and the setting for the competition probably make it appear worse than it is. Rugby accounts for more serious injuries than any other sport and yet I let my lad play because he wants to (although I'm not particularly happy about it any more), so I guess it's as you say, the parents call, once they fully understand what's involved.

In reply to teflonpete:


it really is badly reported. If it had been full blown cage fighting/MMA with everything up to elbow strikes then it would be dodgy to have kids doing it but sticking to grappling seems a sensible compromise. As others have said really no different to judo or wrestling and a lot less painful than boxing.

In reply to KTT:

I disagree with the arena for this kids' tournament. It shouldn't be held in the same venue as adult MMA. I was very involved in MMA when I was younger and even as a fighter and ring man I didn't enjoy the atmosphere of most of the venues, which was generally very drunken and rough (there were often fights in the crowd). A lot of the people who showed up had no interest in martial arts but liked the 'tough' idea of no-holds barred fighting (as it was called back then). I wouldn't take a kid into that environment.

However, I would endorse kids learning grappling and striking martial arts from a young age.

On the other hand, that I think that the pure Japanese martial arts are much more appropriate to teach to children because of the moral training that has been deliberately incorporated into their syllabuses. Judo was developed as a way of toning down the more dangerous aspects of ju-jitsu whilst preserving a fighting spirit and Jigoro Kano meant it to improve the mettle of the Japanese youth. Most judo clubs I've trained at, for example, had rigorous rules that were aimed at preventing bullying and misuse of strength, and bashing someone weaker than you was very much frowned upon. I'd have thought Olympic and Greco-Roman wrestling (and probably Lancashire catch also) have similarly enforced rules.

In my experience of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and MMA the 'moral' behaviour was less enforced, with more emphasis being on transmission of the skills to fight. Beating someone up in training is not encouraged, but there was never any sort of moral guidance that would make you think twice about using your skills in public.

In my judo club you didn't learn locks and chokes/strangles until a certain age (I started at about age 6 and the focus was on throws and pins until after about age 12) when you were deemed mentally mature enough to know the proper application of these dangerous ju-jitsu techniques.

In short, I don't think little kids should learn how to apply locks and strangles/chokes, as I don't think they'd know not to use them in fights with their mates. So I'd even censure ADCC-type competitions (which I don't see as particularly violent) for kids until after a certain age.

As for the cage, it adds to a lurid spectacle of the children fighting. I'm pretty sure the cage was first used in UFC for example as marketing and to emphasise the 'brutality' of it in terms of salesmanship rather than as a safety measure. I'm pretty sure that is retrospective justification. Having said that, I preferred fighting in a cage to in a ring as I had seen some nasty tumbles under and over the ropes eg in Pride.

In reply to KTT: This is just classic Daily Mail outrage at its finest.

They were wrestling (submission grappling), granted it was in a cage but that's where the similarities to MMA or UFC type bouts. They were young, yes, but they had full support from their parents and were refereed and had medical support should they have required it, which they didn't!

a classic example of misrepresentation by the media and Daily mail reader types

In reply to RockSteady: I'm not happy with this event on a number of levels (but then I'd ban boxing). However, your response seems to be the most measured, and posted from experience. Thanks for this