/ Car / lifestyle / environment - advice please

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subtle 10 Oct 2019

We are a two car household, in that we have two cars.

One is the main use car, currently does around 14,000 miles per year, the other is a 13 year old diesel car that has done approx 4,000 miles in the last year - passed its MOT yesterday.

Now, I realise, its a diesel so "must be bad for environment", yet it only does low mileage, yes it could be seen as a "luxury" item yet it is required when we need two cars, and its handy

Do we keep it or do we scrap it and try and do without (rural living, limited public transport so could do with two cars) or buy a more environmentally car (electric etc) and have the carbon footprtint of scrapping old perfectly working old car for a new car, just to do 4K miles per year

Decisions decisions decisions 

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summo 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Keep. Scrapping it might just transfer the extra miles to the other car. 

In a year or two there might be a car scrappage scheme for old diesels which will help ease the cost of an electric one.

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Blue Straggler 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Personally I would keep it. I don't know the rules on scrapping, but I wonder if scrapping is really scrapping or if they go on to another life? Certainly even if the vehicle as a whole is scrapped, it will be salvaged for parts to keep other diesels running so, either way, you getting rid of it is not going to reduce diesel emissions OVERALL. It is just going to inconvenience you. 

The bigger picture of course is that if you get rid of it and get used to the inconveniences of being a one-car household, that could be good in the long run. But your OP already talks about replacing the diesel (and presumably keeping your "main use" car which I assume is petrol). 

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Dr.S at work 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Blue Straggler:

We went down to one car about 3 years ago, rural but can walk or bike for work and schools so may not be typical.

when we really need two cars we hire an extra one - works out quite cheap compared to owning and so an option to consider? 
 

I do some things less now because of only having one car + enviro guilt, going to the wall being the obvious UKC related example.

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fred99 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Keep. Scrapping it will simply mean more raw materials have to be sourced for the replacement.

Also just use it for the long journeys where the diesel engine is most useful, rather than short ones (wherever possible).

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Irk the Purist 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Replace it for a 2nd hand electric car which will very rapidly become your main car and save you a packet.

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MeMeMe 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

You don't have to scrap it, why not sell it and someone else could get the use of it?

I'm not 100% sure of your personal circumstances but we live rurally (12 miles to a shop, 20 to a train station, no buses) and I can tell you what we did.

We had a single Berlingo car that we used for everything and eventually we found it very restrictive because if one of us had the car the other person was stuck (it made even catching the train a pain because of the drop off and pickup at the station) so we looked at getting a second car (so we'd be in the position you are with two cars).

We looked at cheap runarounds because we didn't expect the car to do loads of miles but in the end we decided to go with a used electric car.

So our situation now is that we have the Berlingo when we need to go long distances but actually we found that since most of our trips are local the majority of our driving is in the electric car and it works pretty well for us. Going for an electric car was a bit of a gamble for us, even second hand it was a lot of money for us and we were really worried it wouldn't work out but actually it's worked out well.

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summo 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Irk the Purist:

> save you a packet.

Do you have the maths to back that up.. is there a break even point. 

Environmentally it's without doubt better, having been looking at EVs for a couple of months financially they are still bloody expensive. 

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Blue Straggler 10 Oct 2019
In reply to MeMeMe:

> You don't have to scrap it, why not sell it and someone else could get the use of it?

As per my post, I have taken a speculative leap and assumed that the OP is seeing scrappage as "taking a dirty diesel car off the roads forever, with the aim of doing one little thing for the environment". I may be wrong in this assumption. Selling it might mean someone doing 40k a year in it. 

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stevieb 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

A diesel car should be better for the global environment than a petrol engine - lower CO2 -  but worse for the local environment -NO2 -  so if you live in the country, I don’t think it is a particularly bad car. If the 4K miles is mostly short journeys, if it’s a bigger car than you need or if it’s a particularly dirty 13 year old car, that would count against it though. 

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BnB 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Irk the Purist:

> Replace it for a 2nd hand electric car which will very rapidly become your main car and save you a packet.

Sounds simple but in reality a second hand electric car will still be expensive relative to a second hand diesel of similar mileage. More to the point, improvements in battery technology, and therefore, range, might render older EVs undesirable. Range anxiety is the main obstacle to take up of EVs and the range of an ageing battery is falling by the day.

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Bellie 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

If its an environmental concern, keep the car - but work out its carbon footprint on one of the calculation websites.  Then go to one of the carbon offset sites and plants some trees to make up for it.

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knighty 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Sell the car and get a motorbike or moped. They aren't necessarily the cleanest, but have great eco credentials by reducing congestion.

A moped should also be much cheaper to run than a car.

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Coel Hellier 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Making a new car causes emissions equivalent to driving a car about 100,000 miles (or some number like that, it's high anyhow).

So scrapping an old, low-mileage car and buying a new one makes no sense. 

Scrapping an old car, and not replacing it, is environmental sense. 

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MeMeMe 10 Oct 2019
In reply to summo:

> Do you have the maths to back that up.. is there a break even point. 

> Environmentally it's without doubt better, having been looking at EVs for a couple of months financially they are still bloody expensive. 

We did some calculations and we don't really save anything. The electricity costs are cheaper than diesel but by the time we factored in the battery lease there was no real saving.

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Pan Ron 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> Making a new car causes emissions equivalent to driving a car about 100,000 miles (or some number like that, it's high anyhow).

Jesus.  That's quite a figure. 

It's one of the reasons I, having never owned a car, get a little riled when folk point fingers at air-travel.  I could fly back and forward to Asia every year for ten years (to the displeasure of many) and still be within the emissions of a car-owner.  No doubt it gets complicated by the production cost of an aircraft, cost of maintaining roads, etc.  But it seems like the environemental costs of car ownership, and ongoing maintenance, don't get quite the airtime they deserve. 

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jimtitt 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Coel Hellier:

The ADAC (German AA) come out with about 180,000km before electric vehicles are a benefit to the environment.

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Moley 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Presuming you do not have a disposable cash mountain stored under your bed, to spend on whatever you fancy (new electric, hybrid, gas etc) then I would keep it if you definitely need the second car.

My thoughts are that the next 5 years may see rapid changes in the auto market as manufacturers seek more acceptable environmentally friendly cars and possibly diesels are phased or taxed out? Waiting and making a better choice in a few years may be a better all round option?

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Irk the Purist 10 Oct 2019
In reply to summo:

They are cheaper than an ICE over the lifetime (3+ years) of ownership and have been for some time.

It's true that up front costs are still high and can be a barrier but 2nd hand EVs can be picked up for under £6k.

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Irk the Purist 10 Oct 2019
In reply to BnB:

This is simply untrue. The first generation LEAF batteries are doing absolutely fine after many years and EVs now come with a variety of guarantees, warranties and leasing schemes which mean the battery will be replaced if it falls below a certain level.

Range anxiety is a barrier but it's a perception rather than truth. Most journeys will be well within the range of even a very old EV battery.

And of course, second hand cars dont have any potential problems with the engine to worry about do they?

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SC 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Owning cars causes no harm to the environment. The biggest issue is how you use it. I own a 5.0 supercharged Jag which does about 2000 miles a year while my neighbor drives everywhere in his Polo and does about 15,000 miles a year, mostly avoidable.

If you scrap a car, it cannot be resurrected as long as it's registered as scrapped. 

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BnB 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Irk the Purist:

That's good to know. You've obviously given the matter more thought than I have  

I'm paralysed by range anxiety as, although I don't travel very frequently, a high proportion of my journeys are in excess of 200 miles. In fact one is 450 miles, so that's likely two charges, which is a lot of standing around on an already lengthy trip. I was however impressed by the banks of EV chargers at a service station I visited on the A1 last week.

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wintertree 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

My view coming from a statistical physics background…. Selling a medium aged used car increases economy across the fleet.  On average it really does!


It passes money up the chain with a new car being bought somewhere and an old one taken off the road elsewhere. Average economy increases with modernity so you’re helping to grease the pipeline that swaps old for new.

We had two fossil fuel cars. We kept the most efficient one and bought a used Leaf which we’ve had for 2 years. We put 12,000 miles on the Leaf per year as our primary car - we very rarely charge anywhere except home. We put about 4,000 miles a year on the second car.

It’s hard to get across just how low maintenance the Leaf is.

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wintertree 10 Oct 2019
In reply to summo:

> Do you have the maths to back that up.. is there a break even point

It’s so specific on an individual though.  In general, there are fuel, maintenance and VED savings,

In our case, our EV has been with us for just over two years and was used – three years old 25,000 miles – when we got it. To date with us it’s two services have been visual checks, two cabin air filter replacements and one brake fluid change. The brake disks and pads have over 40,000 miles on them and a lot of life left. No other component has been changed, nor has any fluid. Nor will they ever other than brake fluid occasionally.  There must be a small chance that the gearbox oil could need changing one day as it does have to be inspected every few years.   Edit: The cursed TPMS went on the fritz just before the MOT but the dealer recalibrated it for free. 

Almost no replacement disks and pads, almost no vehicle fluid changes, no spark plug changes – the list goes on.  Also no VED and much cheaper energy costs per mile.

In my provincial town there are a rising number of EV taxis including the new model leaf.  I suspect those drivers have a lot of number crunching specific to their use case to back up buying these  relatively expensive new vehicles.

Post edited at 15:16
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wintertree 10 Oct 2019
In reply to BnB:

> I'm paralysed by range anxiety as, although I don't travel very frequently, a high proportion of my journeys are in excess of 200 miles. In fact one is 450 miles, so that's likely two charges, which is a lot of standing around on an already lengthy trip. I was however impressed by the banks of EV chargers at a service station I visited on the A1 last week.

Well, now might be a good time to mention that the Chevrolet Corvette C8 is coming in a right-hand drive version and would relieve any range exciting as well as most other negative feelings…

Frequent long-range driving is definitely the best reason not to get an EV – routine fast charging is not very kind the battery packs at all, and relies on public chargers which - excluding Tesla - can be just as frustrating and unreliable as Jeremy Clarkson likes to show... Another five years and I think your sort of range will be within a single charge for the executive and high arrange variants.

Post edited at 14:58
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wintertree 10 Oct 2019
In reply to SC:

> Owning cars causes no harm to the environment.

If I owned a barn full of six cars, that is at least four cars in bodying a lot of production cost against the environment that other people can’t use, meaning at least four more cars have to be produced.

Owning cars absolutely harms the environment.  It’s just that for most people, driving them harms  it a lot more…

Post edited at 15:05
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jkarran 10 Oct 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

> The ADAC (German AA) come out with about 180,000km before electric vehicles are a benefit to the environment.

An electric vehicle weighed against what?

jk

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wintertree 10 Oct 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

> The ADAC (German AA) come out with about 180,000km before electric vehicles are a benefit to the environment.

Given that a German EV runs on 40% on lignite and hard coal,that’s not perhaps surprising...

Most vehicles for on to do in excess of that mileage in their lifetime.

”Benefit” is a very nebulous word.  If you define benefit as inner city air quality, they are a net benefit from the moment the start button is pressed, for example.

Post edited at 16:40
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jimtitt 10 Oct 2019
In reply to jkarran:

> An electric vehicle weighed against what?

> jk


The equivalent IC cars.

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jimtitt 10 Oct 2019
In reply to wintertree:

> Given that a German EV runs on 40% on lignite and hard coal,that’s not perhaps surprising...

> Most vehicles for on to do in excess of that mileage in their lifetime.

> ”Benefit” is a very nebulous word.  If you define benefit as inner city air quality, they are a net benefit from the moment the start button is pressed, for example.


Indeed, one of the problems with the policies in Germany as we aren't sure what is the objective. On one hand it's reducing overall CO2 emissions and on the other the more pressing (at the moment) cleaner air in the cities.

The problem of brown coal generation is a legacy one, basically what to do about the ex-DDR economy. We've just budgeted €50bn to shut them down so in a decade that won't be an issue but replacement raises it's own issues, fundamentally the people don't want nuclear, don't want windmills everywhere, don't want new powerlines and nobody wants to buy gas from Putin.

The books tell me for the cradle to grave with only renewables that methane powered IC cars are the winner when it comes to CO2, BEV's are still killed by the production (and lifespan) of the batteries.

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Irk the Purist 10 Oct 2019
In reply to BnB:

Long journeys of 200 miles plus are definitely difficult at the moment with EVs. But most people would be much better off owning a small ev for the 90% of their car use and renting a diesel for their once a year trip to the hebrides.

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SAF 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Irk the Purist:

> Long journeys of 200 miles plus are definitely difficult at the moment with EVs. 

Most of our long journeys of 200 miles plus take us past the lovely Gloucester services!! Ideal for charging up and eating fancy locally produced food!!

We have a leaf 2, and this was obviously something we discussed when deciding to buy it. We came to the conclusion that with a baby and a dog, it would be many years before we could do a journey of 140+miles without needing a decent break. It really just takes a little bit more logistical planning before heading off, but beyond that isn't an inconvenience.

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SAF 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

> Do we keep it or do we scrap it and try and do without (rural living, limited public transport so could do with two cars) 

We had this dilemma earlier in the year and decided to run my 15 year old diesel fiesta, alongside our leaf 2, for as long as it was road worthy, we dropped to one car in June.

We are very rural too, but due to a combination of my part time hours and husband working most his hours from home, it only leaves me car-less in charge of a toddler one day a week and same for husband one day a week.  This arrangement has been fine over the summer, however with the weather not being great today, and toddler now coming into the tantruming phase I felt a little frazzled by the time we sat down to dinner this evening!! Soft play tomorrow morning I think!!! Aarrgghhh!!!!

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BnB 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Irk the Purist:

> Long journeys of 200 miles plus are definitely difficult at the moment with EVs. But most people would be much better off owning a small ev for the 90% of their car use and renting a diesel for their once a year trip to the hebrides.

Likely so. But I make about 8 trips to the Hebrides each year. Then factor in dropping off and picking up two young adults at two far-flung universities for another 6 long distance trips and top up with my wife's monthly visit to her ageing mother in Devon (from Yorkshire) and the EV becomes a pipe dream. We wouldn't go near a diesel though. Modern petrol engines are pretty economical and more rewarding to drive.

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Timmd 10 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Apparently most of the carbon footprint tied up in a car is in the resources involved in making it, and electric car technology is still developing. I'm the kind of greenie who won't fly on holiday and is pondering going veggie, and I'd keep the diesel until it goes kapput, or until electric cars make more progress.

Post edited at 19:08
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wbo2 10 Oct 2019
In reply to summo:  I'm driving a 2015 Leaf - for me it's one of the cheapest ways to drive.  I do about 1200 kms per month .  The cost of the loan is easily covered by savings in fuel , taxes and tolls

Works very well for me.  I think the stories about battery degradation are overrated. 

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wintertree 10 Oct 2019
In reply to wbo2:

> Works very well for me.  I think the stories about battery degradation are overrated. 

Yes and no.  Ours is 2015 and we’re doing similar mileage to you.  No degradation - either on the dash display or a full battery diagnostic.

A lot of people in the USA report serious degradation by our mileage. Up to 3 of 12 bars on the dash.

The leaf doesn’t have any active thermal management on the battery pack unlike most current EVs.  I think batteries in Leaf’s subject to less temperate climates than Western Europe don’t fare so well under heavy usage and regular 16 A or 32 A charging when the pack is hot from recent usage.  To be on the safe side we charge ours at 6A overnight...

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wbo2 10 Oct 2019
In reply to wintertree:I know someone who designs batteries for a job.  She told me some iterations of the leaf battery degrade more tha  others ie the first batch of 30W'ers.  Others are more stable. 

 I tend to trickle charge mine.   I've noticed that if I go without fast charging for a few weeks max stored charge (appearing as range) drops a little.  A long trip with a couple of fast charges seems to fix that, the opposite oc what I expected.   Arent there a couple of model S's that have done bonkers mileage (300,000plus), are showing circa 10% degradation. 

Anyway I am , as they say, delighted. My next car, in a couple years will be a more modern e like an e-Niro , just to up range

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Deleted bagger 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> Apparently most of the carbon footprint tied up in a car is in the resources involved in making it, and electric car technology is still developing. I'm the kind of greenie who won't fly on holiday and is pondering going veggie, and I'd keep the diesel until it goes kapput, or until electric cars make more progress.

Just driven to Oban and then ferry to the Hebrides. The vehicle is an N reg Mazda Bongo with 140 miles on the clock and an old Cal Mac vessel. I've always suspected getting a newy was wasteful.

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wintertree 10 Oct 2019
In reply to wbo2:

> the opposite of what I expected. 

Lithium batteries are half science and half voodoo.  There’s an awful lot of complex structural change going on inside them that’s not so well understood yet.  I get the impression there’s a skilled art to getting a production line for lithium cells running well.  

There’s crowd sourced data here on Tesla and Leaf degradation - in line with what your friend says the 30 KWh pack stands out.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/amp/

I keep looking at our ChaDeMo port and thinking “I bet I can talk the contactors in to engaging and build a genuine trickle charger...” 

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wbo2 10 Oct 2019
In reply to wintertree:  I'm struggling to copy the link but Tesloop have a Model S with over 400000 miles.. interesting reading.  

Yes, she knows what shes talking about - batteries for subs etc.

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summo 10 Oct 2019
In reply to wbo2:

> I'm driving a 2015 Leaf - for me it's one of the cheapest ways to drive.  I do about 1200 kms per month .  The cost of the loan is easily covered by savings in fuel , taxes and tolls. Works very well for me.  I think the stories about battery degradation are overrated. 

I'm not 100% convinced. We'd need the longer range version and it comes in at the equiv of £40k.. I think in winter it's going to take a hit battery wise. We need some ground and electrical works as it's a bit faffy where they park for electrics and can currently only get 10amps to it easily. So we have time to ponder. It will likely need extra lights on the front, too many wild animals at night and sneaking along in whisper mode is only likely to increase the risk of a collision. 

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Timmd 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Deleted bagger:

> Just driven to Oban and then ferry to the Hebrides. The vehicle is an N reg Mazda Bongo with 140 miles on the clock and an old Cal Mac vessel. I've always suspected getting a newy was wasteful.

It's a tricky one, because the air quality in inner cities is important, but regarding resources it is wasteful. 

Post edited at 21:03
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Sealwife 11 Oct 2019
In reply to wintertree:

Not all used Leafs do so well on brakes.  I bought mine at 24k miles and within a month or two had to replace all pads and discs.  Still like the car lots and have no intention of returning to a gas guzzler, but they aren’t as maintenance free as sometimes billed, oh, and they eat tyres as well - have now replaced six in the past 13 months, albeit my mileage is about 20km pa

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wintertree 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Sealwife:

> Not all used Leafs do so well on brakes.  I bought mine at 24k miles and within a month or two had to replace all pads and discs.

Thats a function of the previous driver rather than the car.  You can drive a Leaf mainly on the brakes and not regeneration; except for the first steep hill down from our house (battery nearly full) I drive ours entirely on regeneration not brakes. It’s one thing I don’t like about it - it encourages and rewards a very careful, calming and anticipatory driving style.  What has it done to me?

>, but they aren’t as maintenance free as sometimes billed,

Ours literally is - in isolation and compared to previous fiestas in the same role.  There’s a whole set of classes of maintenance that can’t happen.

> oh, and they eat tyres as well - have now replaced six in the past 13 months, albeit my mileage is about 20km pa

Front or back? If it’s more than one change at the front I’d get your wheel alignment checked as it shouldn’t be doing that.  If it’s the back that’s not such good news as the rear axles are fixed so any past clobbering is harder to fix.  I’m assuming you check your tyre pressures against the values on the door plate and don’t just use the warning system? That goes off at much lower pressures... 

Post edited at 07:56
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wbo2 11 Oct 2019
In reply to wintertree: I'd try to calm down and stop wheel spinning from starting .  That's where they got from for eating tyres

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BnB 11 Oct 2019
In reply to wintertree:

> > Not all used Leafs do so well on brakes.  I bought mine at 24k miles and within a month or two had to replace all pads and discs.

> Thats a function of the previous driver rather than the car.  You can drive a Leaf mainly on the brakes and not regeneration; except for the first steep hill down from our house (battery nearly full) I drive ours entirely on regeneration not brakes. It’s one thing I don’t like about it - it encourages and rewards a very careful, calming and anticipatory driving style.  What has it done to me?

> >, but they aren’t as maintenance free as sometimes billed,

> Ours literally is - in isolation and compared to previous fiestas in the same role.  There’s a whole set of classes of maintenance that can’t happen.

> Front or back? If it’s more than one change at the front I’d get your wheel alignment checked as it shouldn’t be doing that.  If it’s the back that’s not such good news as the rear axles are fixed so any past clobbering is harder to fix.  I’m assuming you check your tyre pressures against the values on the door plate and don’t just use the warning system? That goes off at much lower pressures... 

Or it could just be the brand of tyre. In certain specifications Michelins wear better than Bridgestones which in turn wear better than Pirellis. YMMV. 

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Irk the Purist 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Timmd:

Air quality is also awful in rural villages with main roads running through them as they often become choke points on trunk routes with long queues. It's just not measured as much, but where it is the results can be just as bad.

Air quality is NOT an urban only issue.

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Sealwife 11 Oct 2019
In reply to wintertree:

> Thats a function of the previous driver rather than the car.  You can drive a Leaf mainly on the brakes and not regeneration; except for the first steep hill down from our house (battery nearly full) I drive ours entirely on regeneration not brakes. It’s one thing I don’t like about it - it encourages and rewards a very careful, calming and anticipatory driving style.  What has it done to me?

I am aware of that and suspect that the previous driver either wasn't, or didn't give a damn.  I glide everywhere and rarely go above 50.  

> >, but they aren’t as maintenance free as sometimes billed,

> Ours literally is - in isolation and compared to previous fiestas in the same role.  There’s a whole set of classes of maintenance that can’t happen.

Lucky you.  I am also aware that it doesn't have an engine, clutch, exhaust or any of those pesky ICE items which can and do need repaired/replaced etc, having had bangers for something approaching 30 years, hence why I was well hacked off to have my first ever car under 5 years old, with the lowest mileage ever and had to almost immediately replace parts.

> Front or back? If it’s more than one change at the front I’d get your wheel alignment checked as it shouldn’t be doing that.  If it’s the back that’s not such good news as the rear axles are fixed so any past clobbering is harder to fix.  I’m assuming you check your tyre pressures against the values on the door plate and don’t just use the warning system? That goes off at much lower pressures... 

Both, two at the front, then two at the back, now the two at the front have just needed replaced again.  Alignment and pressures are fine.  I have been told that Leafs do tend to get through a lot of tyres as they are so heavy.  I also do a lot of mileage and not on the smoothest of roads.

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Sealwife 11 Oct 2019
In reply to BnB:

> Or it could just be the brand of tyre. In certain specifications Michelins wear better than Bridgestones which in turn wear better than Pirellis. YMMV. 

I've got Hankooks on it.

BTW I really don't want to hijack the OPs thread with my Leaf tyre and brake history.  It's still a good car, I don't regret going electric at all and, assuming you aren't doing lots of long distances in a hurry, I'd thoroughly recommend changing to one.

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LastBoyScout 11 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

We're in a very similar position to you. Main use car, now petrol, used for about 11k miles/year, 2nd car is an 8yo diesel that does about 3k miles/year.

Bought the diesel to replace an older diesel when I was doing about 180 mainly motorway miles a week just for work, plus social travelling - a month later, my company moved offices into cycling range and I now do about 45 miles a week for work, often 25 when the weather is good and I cycle more. Office move was known about, but was expected to remain about the same distance, or even slightly further away. If I'd known it was going to be that much closer, I'd've bought a petrol equivalent for less money.

As it stands, I'm not about to change the car and lose money on it - I think the value will have dropped significantly on it with the trend away from them, for a start. I do occasionally do long runs in it.

I have a history of buying a car and then running it until the wheels practically fall off, so this one should keep me going until circumstances change again.

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wintertree 11 Oct 2019
In reply to BnB:

> Or it could just be the brand of tyre. In certain specifications Michelins wear better than Bridgestones which in turn wear better than Pirellis. YMMV.

Indeed.  I had no love for the factory original energy efficient tyres.  I’ve been putting Bridgestone Touranzas on ours as the originals age and wear - they seem a lot better lasting.  Front then back.  I’ve got a theory that Pilot Sport 4s would improve some of its rather sketchy driving characteristics...

As Sealwife says, they are heavy cars for their size. 

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BnB 11 Oct 2019
In reply to wintertree:

> > Or it could just be the brand of tyre. In certain specifications Michelins wear better than Bridgestones which in turn wear better than Pirellis. YMMV.

> Indeed.  I had no love for the factory original energy efficient tyres.  I’ve been putting Bridgestone Touranzas on ours as the originals age and wear - they seem a lot better lasting.  Front then back.  I’ve got a theory that Pilot Sport 4s would improve some of its rather sketchy driving characteristics...

> As Sealwife says, they are heavy cars for their size. 

Pilot Sport 4s are the best mass market performance tyre out there. But I’d think overkill for a Leaf. Notwithstanding it’s virtues, it’s not a performance car. Save them for your Cayman when you’ll also appreciate how much quieter they are than the alternatives. It’s a car prone to road roar. 

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wintertree 11 Oct 2019
In reply to BnB:

> Pilot Sport 4s are the best mass market performance tyre out there. But I’d think overkill for a Leaf. [...] Save them for your Cayman when you’ll also appreciate how much quieter they are than the alternatives. It’s a car prone to road roar. 

I know them well - it’s what my 3-series hardtop convertible has.  One of the problems with changing car is reluctantly turning my back on a folding hardtop.  They would be overkill for the Leaf, but then again I think they’d last exceptionally well balancing it out.

> Notwithstanding it’s virtues, it’s not a performance car

It really isn’t - the feel of the steering puts me right off.  The instant max torque should be a hoon exiting bends but the tyres let it done badly.

Post edited at 12:26
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SC 15:55 Tue
In reply to jimtitt:

> The equivalent IC cars.

How do you define equivalent IC against electric? Is the equivalent to a Tesla Model S a Mercedes E63 AMG / BMW M5 or is it a an E220 or 520d? Performance is close to the big super saloons (at legal speeds at least) but is that a fair comparison?

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jimtitt 17:25 Tue
In reply to SC:

> How do you define equivalent IC against electric? Is the equivalent to a Tesla Model S a Mercedes E63 AMG / BMW M5 or is it a an E220 or 520d? Performance is close to the big super saloons (at legal speeds at least) but is that a fair comparison?


How the ADAC decide what's equivalent I neither know or care, an organisation with 21 million members and a budget of €1.2bn probably know more than you or I.

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Toerag 22:23 Tue
In reply to SC:

The climate change deniers like to quote a German study that compared a fast Tesla with a C220D, which is absolutely not an equivalent vehicle in terms of performance.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/business/technology/55602/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones-german-study-shows/

Post edited at 22:36
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SC 10:36 Wed
In reply to Toerag:

The C220d is certainly not even close on performance. Super saloons like the E63/M3 etc are rarely used as an only car though due to running costs so it's possibly not a realistic comparison.

I have a Jag XFR which is equivalent to an older V10 M5 but because it costs so much to run (20mpg, £1000 tyres every 8k miles, £1200 brakes every 15k miles), it does about 2000 miles a year while my old 1.5 Nissan does the daily commute. If I had a Tesla, it would be used every day.

Post edited at 10:36
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jimtitt 10:39 Wed
In reply to Toerag:

A "fast" Tesla? They compared a C220d with a top speed of 234km/h with a 75kwh Model 3 with a top speed of 225 or 235km/h depending on model. Fast is also relative when you have to stop and recharge every 100km or so

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