UKC

Dear hive mind, what would you do in this situation?

I've a 66 plate PHEV, which is on a three year lease. I charge it daily on a regular IP66 13A socket I had installed on my driveway. The charge cable plug has always got quite hot when charging. There is a hook to hang it from, as per instructions.

I've just spotted that the plug has scorch marks on it - it looks for all the world like current has been arcing out of the fuse cover and into the live pin.  Pic here: http://i63.tinypic.com/zybosw.jpg

Just heard from my local Mitsubishi dealer (not the dealer who supplied it - my lease company used one that's many miles away) that Mitsubishi UK will not replace or repair the cable under warranty and my only option is to buy a new cable.  The dealer showed me a bulletin from Mitsubishi, explicitly stating that this problem (with a very similarly burned plug) was not to be treated as a warranty repair. Clearly this is not the first time they've seen this!

I'm not sure what my next step is here. Should I be taking this up with Mitsubishi UK as the warrantor, or the distant dealer as the supplier, or my lease company who I actually have a contract with?

It looks to me like the fault is the plug itself, and nothing 'further down' the chain. I am damned if I'm buying a new £800 cable for the sake of a dodgy plug!

I think I've got a tricky decision to make now. I'm not sure whether I be taking this up with Mitsubishi UK as the warrantor, or the distant dealer as the supplier, or my lease company who I actually have a contract with?  I could call my lease company, tell them that there's a problem with the vehicle they supplied, and ask them to replace or repair the charger. I have a bad feeling that this leads to me being pushed from lease company to supplying dealer to Mitsubishi UK, with no-one wanting to take responsibility for it, and ends with me taking my lease company to the small claims court.

Or I could just go get a black plug, cut the old one off, and replace it. I mean, it's just a plug, isn't it? But then I find myself wondering what happens in fifteen months when I hand the car back and they notice a non-official repair job.

Or a middle ground, where I talk to the lease company, and tell them the plug is damaged and really I ought to be asking them for a new one, but suggesting that I just fix it myself in return for a guarantee that they will not cause any problems when I hand it back in. 

Any ideas?

To me it looks like an issue with the socket you've been plugging it into (your problem), either that of it was a dodgy plug on the original lead, possibly a faulty fuseholder in the plug (manufacturing problem)

You can cut the plug off and re-wire a new plug onto the existing cable.

You may need to replace the socket this plug has been plugged into or use a different socket.

I wouldn't expect a replacement under warranty, because looking at the photo, and that's all we have to go on, it looks more like a socket issue.

I'd replace the plug and see what happens when you hand it it. Also, use a different socket. If it gets warm as you said before, do something different before if burns out.

What is on the other end of the cable? Is it hard-wired into something or is it just another power connector? If the former, does the unit open up so that you can replace the cable yourself with one that looks very similar?

It could be that the contacts in the socket you had installed are not great, thus creating weak pressure and/or contact gaps and this causes the arcing. Got a side view pic of the arcing pin?

Also, you could approach the IET, trading standards or other such organisation that deals with consumer safety, they would take a very dim view of Mitsubishi if their design is shown to not be safe for use with a standard 13A plug. Not much of an immediate help to you though. You'd probably be better off with a 16A "commando" plug on it, again not much help now though.

Working in industrial electronics, I'd say the overheating in the plug is caused by a bad connection between the wire and that pin though it could just be a crappy end-cap on the fuse. Sometimes the wire's crimped, sometimes just screwed in, sometimes the insulation is stuffed into the hole in the pin along with the copper. If Mitsubishi are getting their leads from another, rather shoddy supplier instead of manufacturing their own then they probably won't do a lot.

I'd suggest going in to a dealer's just to let them know that 'here's another of these failures, just for your record.' When Mitsubishi have enough complaints, they probably will switch supplier. Since they don't give a warranty on the lead you're free to cut the plug off and wire up another of your own. 

If you do, then take a look inside the old plug at the quality of the assembly.

Why did Mitsubishi say why this wasn't a warranty issue? If you got the charger (and plug) with the car in a Mitsubishi box then it's their problem IMO.

As far as which retailer to use, it shouldn't make a difference. Even though they're separate company's as long as it's a licence Mitsubishi dealer you can consider them all the same (obviously different dealers would know the history of your car as well as your regular).  I don't know how the warranty deal works with lease vehicle, it depends on who has the contract with Mitsubishi.

This may sound like an odd question but is the fuse still working or has it blown?

That looks like the pin (or the connection to the wire within) is not up to snuff and cannot take the load that is being drawn through it. 

If it's a Mitsubishi-supplied component I'd go straight to them and kick off with a vengeance.  I would challenge them immediately as to why it's not a warranty item (the alternative for a failure of a regular component would be that it should be a pre-failure service item).   Ask them to show where in the warranty documents such a failure is excluded.  Put it to them that it is a design fault in that the fuse that they inserted should have blown long before it crisped the plug.  If the plug has blown before and you've replaced it, it might get trickier, but regardless it shows that the thing is overloaded.

Ask them if they are suggesting that the failure is a result of negligence, misuse or damage - if they say that it is, ask them of what sort and see if that makes any sort of sense.

If they still wash their hands of it, then ask them if it is safe to use.  If they say no, then go around the loop again.  Either answer, tell them that social media and trading standards await.  If they say yes, ask where the documentation shows that this is normal.  If it's not, off you go again.  Go prepared for a fight, when they are busy - suggest that if they don't fix it that the minimum that you will settle for is one lost sale, to be repeated from time to time...

And get them to sign and accept liability for death and your house burning down.

A fan heater on an outdoor circuit is a strange thing to suggest and don't do it in the rain, but if you plug a 13A fan heater into the socket does the plug or socket get hot?

If the plug/socket doesn't get hot that tells you the socket is not the cause of overheating.

The scorching looks internal to the plug and is centred on the live pin end of the fuse so it's probably the pin-fuse connection. Replacing the 13A fuse with a new shiny one might fix that although such a badly scorched plug should be replaced. 

What can you see if you take the fuse out? Is the worst scorching within the plug.

90% sure there's a bad contact around the pin end of the fuse, could be a rivet, could be the clip, could be the fuse. It's not arcing obviously or there'd be deep pits in the pin and copper/brass splatter. Cut the plug and a couple of inches of flex off then fit a new one with a new fuse. the heating may also have damaged the socket though I'd be surprised.

The remaining 10% is a bad contact in the socket (damage or a fault) but since there has been smoke escaping the fuse holder I'm doubtful.

I'd just fix it myself.

jk

If your socket is fine - or was before the plug heated it - and the plug at fault, I’d be on to trading standards about both the fault and the dealer’s refusal to repair it.  You might mention this to the dealer before you do so, and see if their attitude improves.

If they really do decline the warranty on this as a matter of policy, it’s happened enough times I’m surprised they haven’t done a recall for fear of burning a house down.  I don’t know if the DVSA concern themselves with charging?

If you want a replacement charger in the mean time without breaking the bank, I have bought from “Zencar” in China, they’re having website problems (trademark stuff I think) but I can PM you a sales email address if you want.   US $225, outdoor rated, UK plug, you can get mains and EV leads to your spec - type 1/2, length, colour (no tripping over bright green on the drive!), coiled/straight and selectable current limits.  

They’re proper UK plugs not the well dodgy crap seen on some imports.  Ours has put over 1.5 MWh into our Leaf no problems, wall mounted in an open bin store.

If you have old crappy domestic wiring you can set a lower charge current down to 6A if you specify it at purchases.   That’s still 70 miles range on a 12-hour overnight charge.  Conversely if you fit a blue commando societ, you can get a 16A charger for it.

3yr lease.  That means you basically rent the vehicle.  Is the lease with Mitsubishi Finance?  If so contact the finance dept, explain the situation and tell them its there responsibility to supply what you are currently paying them for.  If they don't pursue it for you then you will have to cease payments and start charging them for loss of use.  If its an outside leasing company then it may be a bit harder but again, same principle applies, you are renting the vehicle, if its not under warranty then the leasing company is responsible as long as you haven't done something worng

The problem is that a lot of EV charge cables have a very short cable from their electronics box to the wall plug; half the cable on ours is a strain relief boot coming from the electronics box.  The other 15 cm to the wall plug is all that’s left for shortening.  If you use an IP rated wall socket then that needs some length of flex after the plug, and you have to have enough flex to be able to hang the electronics box on something so it’s not hanging it’s weight off the wall plug.

You could replace the whole flex from the wall plug to the electronics box, but they’re not designed to be user serviceable and may be resin sealed for their IP rating. 

I looked at ours - I wanted a longer mains flex - and developed an unusually defeatist attitude - especially as if I borked it, I’d have a big problem...

Why not take the mountain to Mohamed and put a socket closer to the car?

extension lead?

No, this is the “house side” flex from the mains socket to the electronics box.  It’s always very short.  The “car side” flex from the electronics box to the car connector is plenty long.

The reason I want a longer mains cable is that a great pub we can only return from if we charge has an EV point, which is a standard fit UK wall socket with a dedicated RCBO, atop a post in an IP rated enclosure.  This isn’t an uncommon approach at various EV friendly upland tea rooms etc.

When we use our charge cable in it, the weight of the electronics box pulls on the plug which isn’t good - it came out last time.  Ideally there would be a shelf and a velcro strap for the electronics box...  With a longer house side cable I could put the electronics box on the ground.  

And this is why I wouldn't buy an EV yet.  A series-hybrid is a better choice for the foreseeable future, so if you run out of juice you can just fire up the petrol engine.

We have the 24 kWh Leaf (80-100 miles) which is about to be the ugly step child of EVs in terms of range.  We certainly couldn’t use it as our only car - it’s my wife’s daily runner and our weekend trip car, with a diesel as my daily runner and occasional long distance car.

I don’t like the driving experience of hybrids; always a bit of a let down compared to a sensible V6 or a pure EV.  I thought perhaps it got better on more expensive ones so I had a test drive of the BMW i8; I was very “meh” about it.  

I think if you’re a one car household a hybrid makes a lot of sense, but for two car households an EV and an economical ICE can work very well. We like the Leaf so much though we end up pushing its range over using the other car on weekends.

Thanks for all the advice.  Yes, the charger came brand new with the car.  The other end of the cable in question goes into a box of electronics, and thus into the car.

It's a good (£25) socket from MK; I guess they are not immune to manufacturing errors, though.  I've just run the charger for ten minutes; plug became noticeably warm.  I then ran a 2000w heater for the same time; this was significantly less warm. 

The fuse is still working, but getting it out of the plug took pliers.  Some of the internal plastic has melted onto the fuse.  Side view here: http://tinypic.com/r/wbz70x/9

These two facts rather point to the problem being a crappy connection within the plug, don't they?  And thinking about it, I've noticed it being warm when plugged into other people's sockets too.

What to do now?  My contract is with an independant lease firm, not direct with Mitsubishi.  I can easily go and raise merry hell with my local dealer, but really they've done nothing wrong - they've just diagnosed the problem and told me that Mitsubishi UK decline to pay for fixing it.  The lease firm and the supplying dealer are both hundreds of miles away.

Part of me wants to take this back to Mitsubishi because I think they are behaving really badly here - go to trading standards, social media, etc.  But actually I just want an easy life, and I already have one small claims court case with a car dealer (that's another story) ongoing.  Ironically I chose to lease this time because I was sick of the aggro of buying and selling...

I think I'm going to write to the lease company and explain that there is a fault, that MUK have refused to have anything to do with it, and that from a legal point of view my next move should be to ask them to rectify it.  And then offer to fix the issue myself, subject to their agreeing not to kick up any fuss at hand-over time.  If a new plug still gets worryingly warm I'll replace the socket.

Buy a replacement. Send this back as a return failed first use.

Edit. Clearly plug, no scorching on the live pin, it's all in the plug.

How does the car 'know' whether it's on a 13A or a 16A socket as both would be protected by 16A MCB and potentially the weakest point would be the plug. Is it possible it's been charging too high? Can you put a clamp on either L or N and check current?

Just buy an IP-rated extension lead, e.g. https://www.electricalcounter.co.uk/products/Trailing+Sockets+%26+Leads/Gar...

I only need half a meter extra, and extension leads are much longer and are only rated to 5A-6A when coiled up, whilst the EVSE unit is 10A - continuous for quite some time.  So I’d have to either uncoil it all over someone’s drive or shorten it without breaking the IP rating.  Well, or leave it coiled up and slowly cooking.  

Sorry I’m coming across a negative ninny on solutions I know!  I think charging related fires could be not uncommon as EVs becom the norm.

You could easily shorten it: the IP rating at the other end will be taken care of the socket you're plugging into. Even cheaper would be to make up your own IP-rated extension cord of the right length: https://www.electricalcounter.co.uk/products/Trailing+Sockets+%26+Leads/Gar...

(You're correct of course: never use an extension cord coiled up.)

Good point.  Perhaps I shall make the worlds shortest extension cord!  Thanks for the part link.

Edit: Great photo of a coiled extension cord used to charge an EV here - https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/192923/why-is-it-dangerous-...

True, I suppose you then get the "hybrid" feature by swapping cars, provided both don't need to make a long journey at the same time.

I'm single and so have one car so it wouldn't work for me.  That said, a small car of any kind won't work for me anyway as I'm too tall for one

I thought that was what I said?!!

https://www.elementlighting.co.uk/switches-and-sockets/outdoor-switches-and...

Pick your length

This isn't your problem. The lease company own the vehicle - the problem is theirs to sort out.

So the lease company have said they are happy for me to fit a new plug. No argument at all on their part.

I know this is not 'right', and part of me regrets not taking Mitsubishi to task over this, but for the sake of a trip to Screwfix and ten minutes work, I'll be able to charge the car again! 

Thanks again for the input, all.

get it in writing before doing it!  I'd have thought they'll gladly give it as otherwise a fire caused by defective rental equipment would damage their business and their public liability insurance

I would write to all three, by snail mail, and ask them to explain in Lay terms why it is not a warranty issue, and what it is you have done wrong.

Take a photo of the inside and check if it was a poor connection of the wire to the pin - which would be a manufacturing fault.  Whatever, send it all to Mitsubishi and tell them what you think of them in basic Anglo Saxon.

Or post pictures of plug on their Facebook and those of sites reviewing EVs.

please do reply back with the result after replacing the plug, hope it works but have a feeling it's going to burn out the new plug as well! Plugs etc only burn out because there's to much current draw, which would point to the electronics box not regulating the current! Please DO take this up with Mitsubishi. as a person who worked for another manufacture things are only looked at once they get to the certain percentage failure that would get their accountants nervous!

I did everything with the lease copmpany by email, so I have it in writing that they were happy for me to replace the plug!  Changed it over today.  My local dealer did me the favour of fully charging the car while it was in, so I'll not know how the new plug copes with carrying a full charge until tomorrow evening when I've run the car for a bit.  I'll report back.

If the new plug does fix the issue, I will most certainly be letting Mitsubishi UK know what I think about the matter...

Disagree strongly.  There’s this thing called a fuse in the plug.  The charge cable likely should draw 10A, the plug should not burn even at 13A, and beyond that the fuse should blow.  Much beyond that and you’d expect the MCB or RCBO to blow.  Unless you’re charging your EV with wire fuses (or kitchen forks) in the distribution board...  

Things tend to get that hot when there’s something with slightly to much resistance causing ohmic heating.  It only takes 1 ohm or so to generate serious heat. This could be any one of a number of assembly faults.  From the OPs photo it’s likely a poor contact between the live pin’s fuse holder and the fuse, less likely between the other fuse holder and the live wire.

Other than turning the current off if there’s an earth fault, the box doesn’t regulate the current, the car does.  The box just signals the maximum current the car is allowed to pull through it.  

The damage looks to be extending from within the plug, which suggests that the socket outlet / fixed wiring is not at fault.  The plug needs to be  dismantled but a resistive heating defect at the live pin looks a good bet, perhaps due to a loose grub screw connection at the live pin terminal, or poor connection / contamination on the fuse holders.  If the plug is molded and not mechanically damaged that is surely a manufacturing issue?

Just given the car a full charge using the new plug.  It's barely warm to the touch; the old one would be noticeably hot at this point.  It's now totally clear to me that the plug has been malfunctioning right from day one.

I'm going to enjoy writing to Mitsubishi about this.

Which Mitsubishi dealership supplied the vehicle may i ask? A friend of mine owns a dealership of which my dad is the shop foreman.

Somewhat astonishingly I find I don't have that information anywhere in my paperwork.  The lease company handled all dealings with them.  All I have is a stamp, dealer number 0954.