UKC

If that was your dog that I 'kicked' at Earl Crag yesterday, then I apologise. I shouldn't have kicked your dog. I know it wasn't going to bite me but I didn't want the shit that was on its claws all over my clothes. What I should have done is - let it cover me in said shit, walk over to yourselves and ask politely if you would pay for them to be cleaned.

If I had really kicked it rather than the push it away with my foot then it would have known about it.

If you don't teach your dog how to behave with strangers and that happens to me at any of my crags again then you'll be carrying the thing home in a doggy body bag!!!!

In reply to Grit Wraith:
>

Now now, could you not have just shooed the dog away?

"your crag"?

Perhaps the dog was just being friendly, have you thought about that? Have you thought about putting your clothes in your sack rather than making it look like the bedroom floor of a teenager?

In reply to Grit Wraith:

I bet your natural charm and manner has made you a fast runner.

In reply to Grit Wraith: I wasnt aware it was possible to keep your clothes spotless when out climbing... what a pathetic excuse for kicking an animal.

In reply to Grit Wraith:
Some dogs well behaved and most are a prize pain in the proverbial, sniffing round sacks, distracting belayers and generally getting in the way. And despite what their indulgent owners may believe I don't like them "just being friendly", I don't care if "he only wants to play" and nor do I believe it when they say "Ooh. He's never done that before". So if you can't control your dog or are leaving it to run round while you climb then put it on a lead and tie it up. Problem solved.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

Kicking it is perhaps a bit much, but I hate it when strange dogs jump up at me - mucky paws or not, you're never quite sure of their intentions.

In reply to Wiley Coyote: theres not much worse than trying to clean off a dog egg off rubber either is there

In reply to Grit Wraith:

As usual tolerance and respect on here are out to lunch.

Some dog owners let dogs run riot, most don't. Some people like dogs, some (as in the OP) don't.

Incidentally, to the OP, kicking a dog is a very good way to get bitten. The dog will interpret that as an attack which is fair enough. I'd strongly suggest you don't try that method of control with a dog that is big enough to do real damage.

There are much better ways to control a dog that kicking it - not least as when you kick it you can be taken off balance quite easily, and you'd hate to fall down at the bottom of a crag and hit your head on a rock.

As a matter of interest, if it was a small child covered in mud would you kick that?

In reply to Grit Wraith: I don't take my dog out climbing with me beccause i don't think that crags are the place for dogs however if i did and you were to kick my friendly mutt it wouldn't be the dog you would have to worry about muddy paws or not....

In reply to Grit Wraith:

This is becoming more and more apparant on here. Rufty tufty climbers all into the outdoors yet scared of a bit of dirt. Climbing clothes, like gardening gear get dirty, live with it.

The dog in question could well be being trained but without experiencing different environs cannot be trained. It is very clear that you don't always behave yourself evident from your violent behaviour and threats issued above. You are supposedly more intelligent and in more control of your actions than said dog. I'm not sure you are.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

Yes sir very good sir

In reply to Grit Wraith:
Here's the really tricky thing about training dogs. When you sit them down in front of the blackboard and write out the behaviour rules you want them to abide by they don't really take it in.

Unfortunately you have to put them in the position where they come into contact with a load of strangers, then correct them if they try to jump up.

I take it you now have the dogs name and a photo, so if you encounter this particular dog again you'll kick it to death, or will you randomly be assaulting other people's dogs?

In reply to Grit Wraith: jesus, what a loony.

In reply to Grit Wraith:
I take my dog to the crags but I keep him on a tight lead and he is well behaved.
Im not sure which crags are yours but if I find myself at one then good luck trying to kick him and make sure you've pre-booked yourself an ambulance.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

What a glowing character reference you've painted for yourself!

You're absolutely right though. What you should have done is politely asked the owners to pay for any damage their dog caused, and you'd have been well within your rights to.

But... as you didn't, and decided to kick an animal rather than allow yourself to look slightly dishevelled while climbing. They're well within their rights to report you to the RSPCA cruelty line on: 0300 1234 999

In reply to John_Hat:


Q: Which could be the more frightening for someone - a small child running towards them or a dog running towards them?

A: A dog.

Explanatory note: Dogs have bigger teeth than small children.

In reply to Alan_2468:

It doesn't sound like it was the dog's teeth that Grit Wraith was worried about.

In reply to DaveWarren:

I know, but it's not always 100% clear what a dog's intentions are. If you have small kids with you, then some large "over-friendly" Fido bounding around and making a nuisance of themselves can be very annoying.

In reply to Alan_2468: I agree, but it's not just that.

Dog owners always assume that everyone else likes dogs, including theirs. They just seem incapable of appreciating that not everyone likes dogs.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:


No they don't. Please don't make generalisations; the prefix 'Some' would have done nicely there.

In reply to James Jackson: Okay, fair one, apologies. The point still stands!

Some dog owners always assume that everyone else likes dogs, including theirs. Some of them just seem incapable of appreciating that not everyone likes dogs.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains: It seems everyone has agreed that the original post is a little more than harsh! There is another dog related issue I was going to raise on here. For the record I personally love dogs and hope to own one at some point when I have a bigger house but whilst out climbing a couple of weeks ago one situation did get to me.

When a climber is some way up and needs to shout to be heard by his/her belayer, what do you do when there is a dog roaming around and barking loudly and continuously. This in my opinion is a safety risk. I looked on as a poor belayer had to scream pardon 6 or 7 times before she managed to finally hear what the climber was asking for over the dogs barking.

In reply to John_Hat:

Had he kicked one of my dogs then he would have been bitten by both and would have had trouble walking from the crag, Now don't get me wrong here,my dogs are a great pair, very friendly and like nothing more than to be fussed, they only playfight with me they will even mouth me but will never ever bite unless provoked in which case the recipient deserves everything they get.

This topic crops up pretty regularly on these forums yet it never ceases to amaze me how many adults are frightened of dogs.

In reply to Tall Josh: The same as you do if there are children playing, or traffic noise, or a rough sea, or a fast flowing river, or wind, or sea birds, or an RAF jet goes over, or there's a whole load of climbers shouting cos there's a group or two on the crag, or the guy next to you shouts at the same time, or if there is a whole group of kids on a school geography field trip. You get round it.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

Many years ago i took my dug oot to the nearby field for a p and the guy doon stairs from me was looking up at the buildings for his homing pidgeons .As i spoke to him he was still looking skyward and to my horror my dug cocked its leg and started peeing on the guy .He was still too busy looking at the roofs so i just took my dug n never said anything .

Guys read the OP


I think it was made clear that he didn't actually kick the dog, more move it off him with his foot. So put your flaming torches out and pitchforks down.

In reply to niggle:

Unfortunately I think a lot of people are frightened of dogs, partly because of the dog owners out there who do the whole 'oh, fluffy's never bitten anyone before' routine. I'm a huge dog fan, my best friend is terrified of them, I'm happy for her to stand behind me if strange dogs hurtle at us.

With regard to the OP - kicking it is never the greatest thing to do (not least because a dog tends to bite back if attacked, as pointed out), but as we live in a society where dog owners are encouraged to get their dogs to shit in bags (or thereabouts) in case some wee nipper inadvertently smears poo in his/her eyes, then why would anyone want dogshit-covered paws on them or their clothes?

In reply to Grit Wraith: you are a bit of a dick really aren't you.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

I normally don't mind dogs but I was out walking today when 2 dober weilers came bounding toward me hackles up, teeth bared and barking at me. I was only wearing shorts, had no stick and felt quite vunerable. The owner made no attempt to call them off. On reaching me they began to circle me threateningly. I shouted to the owner to call them off and get them under control.

"Oh they won't hurt you" he replied. "They are real softies"

HTF was I to know that? They certainly showed no signs of friendliness, and once he had got them onto the lead they tried to lunge at me.

W*nker!

In reply to niggle:

Dogs can be agressive and their owners often seem oblivious to this. On several occasion when running I have been pretty frightened whne forced to stop by dogs growlng and snaping at my while their owners call them ineffectively. I can well imagine that anyone who has actually been bitten in such a situation would then consider all dogs frighening. Owners should keep their dogs under control, with a lead if they don't respond to verbal commands.

In reply to janeykennedy:

Wouldn't have been my doggy he'd be kicking...

In reply to Grit Wraith:

As mentioned by some others can you please supply a list of your crags? I and many others will then do our best to avoid all contact with you, dog owner or not.

In reply to MG:


Yes, and out of control. As a (responsible) dog owner, this really pisses me off. I have a labrador, who is exceptionally well trained, both as a gun dog and as my friend; being unable to control a dog is bad news (and most people can't control theirs, really).

The number of dogs I see out on the footpaths around the farm, owners unable to call them away, off the lead worrying the livestock, getting aggressive with each other (had to break up a dog fight last week as the owners were being ineffectual). When I'm on the publicly-accessible bits of land on the farm, I have my dog walking closely to heel. The number of times we get yappy (and not so yappy larger things) untrained dogs running circles around us, owners unable to call them off, trying to get at my dog (who stoically ignores them and continues to walk to heel), is uncountable.

So, my point is this - I am a dog owner, and I also get pissed off with those who don't train / control / restrain their dogs appropriately. It pisses me off mainly as then those of us who do train our animals properly get a bad name by association.

My dog goes everywhere with me - he's great at the crag; I tell him to lie down and stay by our bags, and he does, even if others come and try to bother him. He's then also very pleased when we return, which is a nice thing to come back to. No different to a stay and recall in a field, but with no recall.

Please don't tar us all with the same brush; we get pissed off too.

In reply to Grit Wraith: Not owning a dog myself I can understand that the OP wouldn't want to be pawed, bitten, fussed by said dog but why on earth would you try to force said dog away using your foot, kick or not. Although as someone who quite often looks after 2 different dogs, one being very well behaved, the other very boisterous I have to agree with others that if you ever raised a foot to either of the dogs you'd find yourself hanging from 'YOUR' crags. Dick!!

In reply to Grit Wraith:

9/10 You have got them foaming for the mouth. Would have been 10/10 if you had got "the peaks" in there.

In reply to Adam Carey:

..........you'd find yourself hanging from 'YOUR' crags. Dick!!

Interesting to observe the arrogance of a lot of dog owners on this thread.
A lot of people do not like dogs and they don't want them coming near them and 'being friendly', and having to stand in their shit, etc, me included.

Give me cats anyday.







Due to his lack of response though, the word troll springs to mind.

In reply to Grit Wraith:


This is all a bit pathetic. How about strap on a set, stop whining, and get climbing

In reply to JoshOvki:

Beat me to it.


RABISSSSSS

In reply to JoshOvki:


In fairness he didn't say he kicked it.

I like dogs and I grew up with them (in the peaks ).

If a dog i didnt know was running at me and i couldn't see an owner i'd maybe use my foot to PUSH (not kick) but it would depend on how the dog was acting. As I said, if I didnt know the dog (although I tend not to be arsed about muddy paws nor if the dogs tail is wagging or its not snarling/foaming at the mouth...). Perfectly sensible.

If the bugger was snarling and trying to bite me or anyone/thing else, then probably i'd kick the dog and then the owner and "tickle" him with my foot too (or utilise my seagul frightener).

If you are out and about with your dog and there are people about, keep it on a lead unless you can keep it under control. Its not difficult, its just sensible. People have a right not to feel threatened by animals because SOME dog owners cant be arsed to train their dogs properly.

That being said, muddy paws and clothing... not an excuse to kick - but push with foot is VERY different.

In reply to niggle:

Cynophobia mate.

I have it.

However, you wouldn't catch me kicking a dog - I'd be too afraid to go near it. My approach in these circumstances is to call to the owner and ask them to call their dog away. Normally they oblige. Occasionally you do get some owners who don't care, but thankfully it's rare.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

some people seem to have lost sight of why many responses are having a go at the OP. It's not because he kicked a dog (as it reads that he just pushed one away rather than put the boot in and hurt it), but that he writes this

"If you don't teach your dog how to behave with strangers and that happens to me at any of my crags again then you'll be carrying the thing home in a doggy body bag!!!!"

That is insinuating he wouldn't under normal circumstances hesitate from kicking the crap out of a dog for coming near him.

Whether true or OP is being a juvenile idiot and acting hard on an internet forum, it's a pathetic statement and I can't think of anyone I would class as sane who would injure a dog just because they came near to them. If one attempted to attack - that's a different story.

So my response to the OP - sounds like you did nothing wrong on the day, and I can understand you don't like dogs jumping up on you and that many owners aren't able to control their dogs properly. However you've come across as a complete wanker and I certainly wouldn't wish to have anything to do with you.

In reply to niggle:

If you are used to dogs, it's fair enough. You know the danger signs. If you're not, then you are in a situation in which you are confronted by an unpredictable and potentially aggressive predator.

I did a paper round when I was a youth and I was bitten by several dogs ranging in size from ankle biter to full grown Alsatian. Mostly these were just nips, but the worst were from the Alsatian (he was defending his pal bless him, he'd never done it before, that's quite a lot of blood) and the Yorkshire Terrier (literally bit my ankle, which then got infected). I knew what I was doing around dogs, so it wasn't my fault - bad dogs, bad owners.

In reply to Scarab9:

Have you seriously never written anything on the internet when you've been pissed off? Yes, i know we all *shouldn't*, that we should have better self-control, etc etc, but even so. Calling him a complete wanker, a dick, etc, doesn't really help anyone.

In reply to Removed User:

yep. Then I've come back on when I've calmed down and apologised. I certainly haven't waited hours (I very much doubt he wrote the post while at the crag) to come on and in a rage written anything about how I'd kill a creature for coming near me.

In reply to Tom Hutton:

Good point very thoroughly made! In my defence though the dog was louder than a fighter plane and it went on all night!!

In reply to mmmhumous: I thought he'd made it clear that he'd just used his foot to stop it jumping up at him? Quite within his rights to do so aswell, RSPCA? You must be joking, right? Get a grip for f@cks sake-GW may've had a small child in his arms or owt, either way the owners are entirely responsible for the conduct of their animal and lets be honest - no-one likes a strange dog jumping up at you, or do you..?

In reply to Danzig:

If you think a dog is going to jump up (in a non aggressive manner)then the best thing to do is turn your back to it.

I'm suprised by the number of comments here saying 'if you kicked my dog then you'll be lucky to survive' I've had dogs, some good some bad, but if a dog comes up to you and you perceive it to be threatening then let it know what you think in no uncertain terms, if that dog then attacks you, then it should be put down. As James Jackson says a trained dog should be passive.

I feel sorry for bad dogs, sorry that they have an owner that lets them be that way.

In reply to JSA:

A big dog can still knock a person over easily. Also, I think turning your back to something jumping up at you goes against all our programmed responses.

In reply to Removed User:

Bob is medium sized and can easily knock someone over, he does jump up but that is my fault for the way I play with him, but even then when I turn my back he won't jump up. Also, when he was at puppy class the trainer told the group to turn away from the dog if it is going to jump up.

In reply to JSA:

Do you get a chance to tell that to people before the dogs jump up on them?

In reply to BannauB:

My don't won't jump up at others because they are kept on the lead unless there's water nearby then the Boxer heads straight for a swim choosing a dip over food. The staffy is never off the lead because his recall is crap.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

Dog owners, smokers and cyclists have a majority which give the minority a bad name.
Once you've accepted this, you'll get through life feeling much less bitter.

E

In reply to BannauB:

Yes, exactly. He knows his place in the pack is to tell me if there's something wrong, and then ignore it when I acknowledge that he's told me. So, if there's something he doesn't like, he'll have a little gruff or growl at it, and as soon as I've thanked him for that he goes back to whatever he was doing before.

He'd also run a mile if somebody tried to kick him. As would I, in the other direction.

In reply to niggle:

Dogs can have pretty sharp teeth.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Tall Josh: You were stuck up there trying to communicate all night?

In reply to Enty:

Possibly not written quite as you intended

In reply to jimjimjim: You sound like a well balance dog owner and the situation would probably never arise with you. However, can I just reiterate that I pushed the dog away with my foot! I didn't give it a good kicking. The owner still told me off for kicking her dog.

In reply to MHutch:

Wrong.

E

In reply to Grit Wraith:

I think dogs should be on leads in public. even if not aggressive having a dog jump up at you or bound in while you are having a picnic is a pain in the arse. Not everyone thinks having an animal that eats it's own shite lick your face is cute. Also, i dont know weather or not the dog is aggressive and i will allways assume that they are.

In reply to Enty:

Aha - so the majority of cyclists, smokers and dog owners are badly behaved?

Apologies for the correction - just didn't expect that from someone who runs a cycling holiday business!

In reply to doz generale:
Would you include any exemptions to this statement, or is it ALL dogs period?

In reply to Sapper4083:

i would like to see all dogs on leads in public or at least being made to wear a muzzle whilst off the lead. Or at least leads must be used in areas where there are likely to be kids.

Went down the park with my nephews recently for a kick about only to find a chap thowing sticks for his dogs (a staffy and an alsation). his dogs wern't acting as if they would be aggressive but i don't know them and didn't want to risk playing footie with my 5 and 4 year old nephew. would you? it's a shame.

In reply to doz generale: Hey you bunch of smelly snotties, when I take my dog out climbing with me tomorrow I'll make sure he's got nice filthy paws, sharp teeth and a bad attitude just to p**s you off. Haha. Just try kicking him...!

In reply to doz generale:

To an extent I'd agree, but what's your definition of a public place or place where there's likely to be kids? I keep mine on a lead on the streets or if I'm on a footpath with hordes of people and kids around, but I don't consider it reasonable to keep him tethered on an empty fell or beach, just on the offchance someone can manage to sneak up on me before I can recall the dog. (He doesn't jump up btw, but he does go in for a quick sniff if I'm not watching him).

In reply to Vertigo1:
Reminds of an old quote: "Never be afraid of people with dogs. They are cowards who dare not bite (for) themselves"

In reply to Wiley Coyote: Any time you want matey, with or without the dog.

In reply to Vertigo1:

<chortles at the testosterone spilling over on this thread>

"You lookin' at my dog? Eh?...EH?!"

In reply to Vertigo1: Oh for dog's sake

In reply to Vertigo1:

Wow, you sound like a really nice guy, I bet you have loads of mates and a happy family.

I remember an incident at Trevor a few years ago when 2 climbers left their dogs running around whilst they were climbing. The 2 dogs then circled an elderly couple out walking their elderly dog. The old man was forced to let go of his dogs lead and the couple were shaken and quite upset. The 2 climbers just laughed, the elderly couple did not. Friendly or not, i believe dogs should be tied up at the crag.

In reply to Ridge:

Anywhere outside of your house or your garden. Most dogs and owners are fine but you can't tell that by looking at them so as long as there are dogs running around off the lead in public people will allways be worried about being bitten or jumped at.

In reply to Vertigo1:

Careful everyone, he's from Glossop - they breed keyboard tigers there...

In reply to BannauB: You british lot..will never learn good manners will you?

In reply to Grit Wraith:
100% behind you mate, cannot stand dogs not on a lead at the crag.

In reply to Vertigo1:

I'm having trouble with your definition of good manners.

Back to the OP, Good dogs can be the best, bad dogs can be the worst. A good dog at a crag is neither here nor there, you wouldn't notice it. But a bad dog could be dangerous.

In reply to doz generale:


This kind of puts the kaibosh on the type of dogs I was thinking about - there are many different breeds but one specific purpose and may indeed be used in 'public places'. They need to be off the lead to do their job and muzzling would create problems.

In reply to Vertigo1:

I'd throw a stick for your dog off the top of Cheddar Gorge and watch it chase after it......then run away very, very quickly.

In reply to Lusk: Oh my dog is a bit more clever than that. Anyway do us all a favour grandpa, hang those boots on the wall and embrace the bitter life of tv and sleepers.

In reply to Sapper4083:


Are you talking about working dogs or pets?

In reply to doz generale:

Working Dogs. In my original reply I asked if there would be any exemptions.

In reply to Grit Wraith: doggy body bag lol i love it m8

In reply to neilh:

So my dog top ropes - what's it got to do with you?

In reply to Grit Wraith: Arent they a pain in the arse? Dog owners that is who cant own up to letting their pooches behave like their children. How many times have you seen climbers with a nice warm dog poo in a bag hanging next to their cams? Never. Lazy selfish and inconsiderate.

In reply to Fawksey: How many times have you seen climbers with a nice warm dog poo in a bag hanging next to their cams? Never. Lazy selfish and inconsiderate.

Urghhh, that's gross, what if a cam splits the bag? No, I'll put the bag in another carrier bag and carry that instead....

In reply to JSA: I didnt know your dogs could climb! What do you do with mutley while youre climbing?

In reply to Fawksey:

I get a good rock 9 and belt him over the head with it then hope he doesn't come round till i get back down! That was a joke obviously. Really I get a wire in somewhere and tie him to that, if there's no where to tie him to I have a ground screw to tether him to.

In reply to JSA: which pitch?

In reply to Fawksey:

There's usually somewhere to tether him, I put my jacket down for him to lay on so he's a happy bunny.

Here he is as a pup at Malham http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1758032&l=ba04879abc&id=50311...

In reply to JSA: mmm, Ive the same rockboots as you. How come I cant climb higher than VDiff?

In reply to JSA:

PS: 141 in jeans and no fairing Saturday.

In reply to Fawksey:

Cut down on the pies

In reply to Fawksey:

Nutter!!! lol best I've done in a suit is 170ish

In reply to JSA:

Hugo Boss or Piere Cardin?

In reply to Grit Wraith: I hope I never come across you at a crag when i have my dog with me .If you had kicked my dog then i would have kicked you .You sad low life leave the dogs alone .No one ever mentions the crowds of lound young kids you find at crags thses days they really are a pain in the arse.

In reply to JSA:

How's the job hunting going?
Window cleaning could be an option in Manchester....http://tinyurl.com/2uelb4x

(not a piss take, I'm long time unemployed as well, not good, is it?)

The name chamge amused me.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

So did you kick the dog or push it away with your foot, your OP is a little contradictory to some people.

Also the one question that seems to be on a few peoples lips here is which exactly is "your" crag?

In reply to Lusk:

Still no joy yet,but still not given up. Also still haven't had my first JSA payment yet, it had been "overlooked", so it's a good job I called them to chase it up really.


That looks fantastic, have they actually built it yet?

I thought it would put a few smiles on a few faces

I think it's off to town with a sandwich board on Wednesday with a message reading "Employer required, apply within". That should also put a few more smiles on more faces, and hopefully get me a job at the same time.

In reply to JSA:

When I was signing on (wife's got a job now) the JSA hadn't arrived into my bank account, quite a few times, so I'd ring them up and ask what's happening, "Oh, yes it's here, do you want us to release it?" Answer, "errr, yes please!"

Urbis, the glass building, went up after the IRA bomb, at least 10 years?

In reply to Grit Wraith:

What about a bit of tolerance and respect from both sides?

I can see a lot of people on here aren't familiar with dogs, and/or don't like dogs, or have had bad experiences. And why on earth should you have to like dogs? If you don't know dogs, and as a result don't have a hope of reading their intentions then even benign 'friendly' behaviour could seem threatening. Even if you are very familiar with dogs then the odd one can surprise you - though this is very rare out in the countryside away from the dog's territory.

I like dogs, as an owner and a vet - But even I don't like them jumping up at me. I have to say I thought the OP's comments about getting dirty clothes (when after all engaged in rock climbing which is not generally a clean pursuit!) seemed a little prissy. But then a dog doesn't know if it's just jumped up at someone just about to go out in expensive clothes, or whether you were going to get covered in s@#t anyway - so they shouldn't do it. I would hope my dogs knew better - but then they can let you down. If they did jump up at someone however, I would be mortified and justly apologetic, even if the person was only wearing outdoor clothes. I would consider that this is just good manners. The dog would also know about it, though not because I kicked it...

I don't think that all dogs should be muzzled in public. When you think of the millions of dog/human interactions every day, how often is anyone bitten, or even jumped up at come to that? Most dogs you wouldn't even notice, and that is probably how it should be. I cannot honestly say that anything would be achieved by muzzling and leading my docile middle aged labrador - she would only pose a threat if you were, for instance a piece of cheese! This applies to the vast majority of dogs. The terrier is more likely to seem to be a nuisance (even if he's just generally dashing around) so is more often on a lead. I think I have a responsibility for the actions of my dogs. I also don't leave crap everywhere - but then that is another story...

I can respect that for whatever reason some people don't like dogs. Owners should train them, and take responsibility for them if this fails. On the other hand just because some people are scared of a dogs, does that mean all dogs should be muzzled and on leads in public, just because it makes that person feel uncomfortable? (which in the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases is all that would happen) I don't think it does. We all have to tolerate things that we would rather not. We don't have to make a fuss about it and say things that reflect badly on us.

I don't think our dogs really enjoy coming cragging with us. We only take them if there's no other choice. Then they are tied up.

Surely like most disagreements it only comes down to a bit of empathy and some manners - from both parties?

In reply to doz generale: i also would like to all young children muzzled and put on leads.In my experience most dogs more well behaved that a lot of young children.

In reply to Grit Wraith:
There is a new Dog Control Bill currently going through the House of Lords specifically addressing the owners responsibility and gives authorised officers the powers to place Dog Control Notices on irresponsible owners at the first signs of dog aggression. Which will hopefully go some way to address this issue.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3167/23/5/3

However as far as I know there is still no legislation to keep cissy townies out of the countryside, which I think would make it a much nicer place for me and my dog.

http://tinyurl.com/3a9xz82

In reply to Vertigo1:

Afraid not mate, just been down to sign up at the new climbing wall, these rancid old booties will be kicking around for a bit longer.

I could do with some sleeping pills, the way the wife snores.

PS. I love dog ears, so silky smooth

In reply to tede:

The kennel club is of course a bastion of all that is good and true in dog circles....

In reply to Catherine Speakman: One thing you have failed to mention here Catherine is the damage and distress caused to livestock. Seeing as so many of out climbing areas have sheep in them it is pretty bad behaviour to see the number of owners that let their dogs off the lead, even during lambing season.

In reply to muppetfilter:

So if some owners won't put their dogs on a lead at lambing time, what makes you think they'll comply all year round?

In reply to Grit Wraith: How far did you manage to kick it ? it could be a new olympic sport ...

In reply to Catherine Speakman:


So can I.

But the fact is that there are millions of dogs in britain. Whether or not you like dogs, you will see dogs just about everywhere you go, especially in the countryside. So turning up in a place where you know there will be dogs and demanding that everyone with a dog leave immmediately/muzzle/chain their pet isn't reasonable.

If you were a person who doesn't like dogs, why go to places where you know there will be dogs? You're the one with the problem. It's either that or - open your mind real wide and see if you can fit this in - you learn to deal with dogs, to understand them and how to respect and interact wit them safely.

In reply to niggle:

Yep. If you've a genuine phobia of dogs, you can't expect everyone else to bend to that. It would be like someone with arachnophobia marching into the insect house at London Zoo and throwing a hissy fit.

Having said that, a few dog owners do make it tricky for anyone to 'deal with' their animals by having zero control over them and zero consideration for others. Expecting other people to pull out their dog whispering skills when they're being jumped all over or snarled at is a bit unreasonable. I'm slightly wary of any dog I don't know, no matter how much the tail is wagging - it's a reasonable approach these days - and I'd hope most owners would recognise that allowing their dogs to bound up to other people might not always be welcome.

Not to mention allowing them to coil one out on the middle of my favourite paths...

In reply to Sapper4083:

I completely agree with the sentiment.
However its just a point of reference to the new legislation and the site does have some useful info for dog owners.
If you can find a direct link to the (proposed) legislation at www.houseoflords.com or www.gov.uk then please let me know.

In reply to Grit Wraith: Unless you are being attacked there's no excuse for kicking or "pushing" an animal with your foot. I used to own a dog and if anyone did that to her, if she didn't hospitalise them first I definitely would have.
If I witness anyone kicking an animal the RSPCA would be called immediately.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

Maybe you should have stayed inside climbing plastic if you didn't want dirty clothes..? Just a thought.

Actually, as a dog owner I can still appreciate your point in general. No-one likes a pain in the a$$ dog or young child for that matter. But.. you live in the UK where most of the adults can't even behave properly on a Friday night so what do you expect from the dogs...

In reply to SARS:



Hold on a minute porky boy! I seem to remember somebody in their pre greedy pig days taking exception to a certain Spanish dog with continence problems-or at least to its owner.
PS.Has the sac dried out yet ?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Porky? Ha ha still svelt, just trying to ramp up for an upcoming trip.

Yes, I had forgotton about that - but I didn't kick the b*tard (mainly because he would have eaten me I think).

BTW, yes it dried out fine, I used your t-shirt...

In reply to daveyji:

How do you discipline your dog? Do you call the RSPCA whenever you see someone put their cat out?

In reply to BannauB:

Not through violence! Positive reinforcement and reward based training

In reply to BannauB:

No but I am tempted to bag its sh*t and post it through their letterbox after its dug up my veg patch to dump in

In reply to Grit Wraith:
Just to put things in some perspective, i would say that the english, on the whole, are very good at keeping their dogs under control...now, the french? Another matter altogether

In reply to Sapper4083:

Agreed.

In reply to daveyji:
Is it possible for somebody to ***harmlessly*** minimise contact with your dog without risking hospitalisation?

In reply to daveyji: Sounds like violent owners are more of a potential threat than their dogs. Aren't dogs supposed to be man's best friend?! So would you subject your best friend to a potentially bewildering and worrying ordeal like tying him/her up for hours whilst watching their owner disappear vertically out of site for no apparent reason. Not to mention the intense boredom. I suppose running around off the lead and jeopardising access agreements is a just reward for all that tedium.....

In reply to Adam Carey:

for the record, I love dogs and I'm not afraid of them, I never have been. I'd like to own one eventually.

I once had a dog run up to me on a beach in Edinburgh. I didn't try to kick it, or push it away. It jumped up and bit me, hard, through 3 layers of clothing. It's owner ran behind it ineffectively yelling at it, while it took off down the sand.

I went to hospital, had a number of injections, some painful cleaning and a couple of stitches. I have three reasonably neat scars on my back now.

At what point would I have been justified in kicking that dog? before it had attacked me, or after?

Point is, dogs can be dangerous. Probably very infrequently, but it still happens, and the owners seem just as surprised when it does than the people who have been attacked.

Dog owners MUST accept that not everyone has an appreciation of their animals behavious and have every right to be suspicious.

That means if animals jump up onto people, they should expect to be forcefully repelled. People who don't own dogs, aren't familiar with how to control them and are rightfully wary, might do something that can be interpretted as a kick.

To the OP - I fully appreciate your position and agree with you whoelheartedly.

To the people who say "If you did that to my dog you'd be the one getting kicked". Well if your dog is as well behaved as you say it is, that'll never happen eh? So no need to get all uppity.

For the record, I still love dogs, play with all the dogs of my friends and will probably get one when I live somewhere more dog-friendly. I don't however, assume that everybody feels just like me.

In reply to Matt Rees:

Wow - kicking justified before, during and after - along with strangling and stamping. If it was me, the owner would have been coming to hospital with me but probably in a more serious condition.
What if it wasn't you but your 4 year old daughter the dog attacked - would dog and owner have survied?

E

In reply to Enty:

One dog related incident was Gripper bounding round Malham beck(Blue following)with a rabbit in his mouth then up on to the catwalk to give Rad his "prize". Needless to say the tourists were horrified.

In reply to Enty:

The dog owner ran off after his dog (there were kids and families at the other end of the beach). I was so shocked that and I really didn't realize how badly I been injured, and I wandered off up the beach in somethig of a daze. Two mins later, when I saw my back through my shirt and the blood pouring out, I looked around for the owner in a hurry before going to hospital, he had scarpered and taken his dog with him. I feel bad, to this day, that I didn't act sooner. Who know what that dog might have done since.

The point I'm making of course is that I had no idea that the dog was going to bite me and I would never have suspected it either. I like dogs, why would I? He wasn't barking or snarling until he was at me, and I didn't realize to take a swipe at it until it was far too late. If you're not familiar with a dogs behaviour how are you supposed to know what the dog is about to do?

Owners have to accept that dogs, unlike kids, have less predictable behaviour, cannot be "taught" so easily with logic and are potentially more dangerous. If your dog physically makes contact with another person even if it's in a what the owner knows is a playful way, that person has a right to react in a robust fashion.

In reply to Matt Rees:

Coincidentally we had a dog incident at St Leger today.

We had the North Face to ourselves for about an hour then a German couple arrived and tied their dog to a tree while they climbed.

Needless to say dog started barking loudley once they were'nt giving it any attention. Here's a transcript of the 2 hour converstation between the German female, German male and their dog:

Dog - bark bark bark.

GF - shut up

GM - shut up

Dog - bark bark bark.

GF - shut up

GM - shut up

Dog - bark bark bark.

GF - shut up

GM - shut up

Dog - bark bark bark.

GF - shut up

GM - shut up

Dog - bark bark bark.

GF - shut up

GM - shut up

Dog - bark bark bark.

GF - shut up

GM - shut up

Dog - bark bark bark.

GF - shut up

GM - shut up

Dog - bark bark bark.

GF - shut up

GM - shut up

Dog - bark bark bark.

GF - shut up

GM - shut up

FFS!!!!

Enty

In reply to Enty: We have a dog 2 doors down that barks all day, literally none stop, means you can't have the doors open much. We've complained but there is 'nothing they can do'...entertain your dog maybe...

Some dogs are happy at crags, most aren't though. Ours aren't, so why take it...

In reply to SARS: I don't climb on plastic. Thats for gays. I've just bought a dog. I've called him Snorkle. When I go climbing I'm going to leave him in a bag at the bottom of the canal.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

Nice line in homophobia as well as being an all round nice guy or perhaps you're dealing with some deeply repressed emotions and deep inside you aspire to be Graham Norton walking around with a Lhasa Apso or Chihuahua.

In reply to Alan_2468:


Nope, it's the kids that freak me out, every time. Vile creatures.

Sx

In reply to Sarah G:


Maybe, but they will end up paying your pension!

In reply to niggle:


You've got something there. I came across a couple of ladies at a popular dog-walking venue last year and one of them was obviously worried about dogs- mine appoached her in curiosity as we passed by on the path, she sitting with her friend on a wee bench. Her mate said she didn't like dogs. "You've come to the wrong place, then," I replied.

And no, I won't be putting my dog on a lead or keeping it muzzled *just in case* we come across someone who is nervous of dogs. In the same vein, I don't expect people who are nervous of dogs to stay indoors.

Sx

In reply to EeeByGum:

I'm already paying for their education, so I don't owe them anything!
Sx

In reply to Sarah G:


You appear to be just the sort of dog owner many of us object to. If your dog won't behave and goes up to people who take no interest in it, then it should be on a lead. Whether the people are nervous or not is irrelevant.

In reply to Sarah G:

When you say popular dog walking venue, I assume you mean park for people to walk in that is commonly used as a toilet for dogs.
I presume the bench was not installed for dogs to sit on?

In reply to Tangler:

Argument for argument sake, very boring indeed!

In reply to JSA:

Admittedly I am bored

SarahG does suggest that the ladies sitting on a park bench shouldn't have had the "cheek" to object to dogs in a "popular dog walking area".
I wasn't aware that many parks had been built for dogs first and people second.

In reply to JSA:

You've just shot down the whole point of 90pc of UKC

In reply to Sarah G:

When you replied with this, did they then progress to telling you to F-Off? As I would have done
It's people with attitudes like the one you display in your post that are the problem, not the Dogs themselves.

In reply to monkey1:
So dog owners are meant to take their dogs where exactly, no further than the bottom of the garden?

In reply to MG:

Quite true, reading this thread quickly it amazing just how arrogant and selfish most dog owners are... or at least it isn't as you come across this every day. Perhaps dog licences should be reintroduced, but much much more expensive to cover the cost of cleaning up and discourage people from owning them? Free for OAPs, blind people and those that really needed them like farmers disuassive for all the others?

Apart from the nuisance of dogs they are hardly ecological - I read somewhere that the amount of protein eaten by US dogs would cover the needs of those starving in Africa, not really in line with the jolly-country-folk-nice-people that doggy people like to see themselves as. For large dogs leads and muzzles should be compulsory too in parks where they can bother kids...

In reply to JSA:

Just keep them under control so they don't jump up/growl/sniff etc. And while they are at stop putting dog shit in bags and then leaving it. Take it with you or, if you are that anti-social, leave on the ground. Plastic bags full of shit don't clear themselves up or rot.

In reply to JSA:

Nice one, thanks for the contribution.

Now then, where did I say anything remotely about where Dog owners should be able to take their dogs?

In reply to JSA:

Take your dogs wherever you want - they're your dogs, it's your problem.
Just don't object to people who might be nervous of them and clean up their sh1t.
Having a pet dog is a privilege not a right.

In reply to Grit Wraith: I'm not a dog owner, but don't dislike them. On the other hand, I'm not the most comfortable person around unknown canines. The number of dog owners on this thread threatening physical violence against anyone who might 'push' or 'kick' their dog (I think I've counted about 4 and only read half the thread) is really quite worrying. If people can't understand how intimidating some strange dog, nomatter how 'friendly' can be to some people, and how they may potentially react, I really despair.

In reply to Aly:

Yet you seem to fail to acknowledge the violent outburst of the OP that the posts are primarily in reply to....

In reply to Sarah G:

How did you get through school?

In reply to Sarah G:


Why not? it's only a dog. why should people feel nervous because you choose to have a pet?

In reply to Sarah G:


'And no, I won't be putting the saftey on my shotgun, *just in case* the kids get hold of it'

In reply to BannauB:

That's a bit silly isn't it, shouldn't a weapon be kept in a locked cabinet?

In reply to doz generale:

I was bitten by a dog the other day... It came flying out of a yard onto the public road I was walking on with my daughter. It didn't draw blood or anything but it was quite scary... The mut ran off when I picked up a stone. Seems to me pretty good reason to be nervous of dogs to me!

In reply to Aly:

I think you can say the same the other way, you read many people saying about attacking dogs, strangely it's them that have the experiences of being bitten...1+1...

I have found a few strange dogs intimidating, but very very rarely. Generally I approach a dog like I would a strange person and don't expect either to attack me. Like with a person I'd not make any rapid moves, jump around, shout, shove them away, so why would I with a dog..

In reply to Aly:

And the number of non dog owners threatening physical violence against dog and owner should be equally worrying.

In reply to Sapper4083:

After being bitten three times by different dogs while minding my own business I am sometimes wary of some dogs. Most are fine, but even then some people go hyper after being bitten, a woman and her kid go into hysterics if one comes into the pub and they have to be left outside.

Attack owners, only once after I had killed the dog after it had bitten me twice ripping my sleeve to shreds. He thought it was a huge joke, till I hit him. It was worth losing my job for, and he got prosecuted for not keeping it under control, the hospital saw to that.

In reply to Tangler:

No, it can be a right,

Human rights act - Article 1 of the First Protocol !

:0)

In reply to Paul F:

Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.

The preceding provisions shall not, however, in any way impair the right of a State to enforce such laws as it deems necessary to control the use of property in accordance with the general interest or to secure the payment of taxes or other contributions or penalties.

In reply to Sapper4083:

Kicking a dog that is attacking you is what they call self defence.

Attacking the owner seems to be going a bit too far, but having been bitten by a dog whose owner subsequently attempted to justify its behaviour, I can see why a less reserved person might be pushed into losing their temper.

I've had my clothes mussed up by dogs, my food stolen, my shoes nibbled and my fleece jacket er... moistened. I've stood in a large number of dog chods. If any human behaved like some dogs do, they'd be put under the care of someone far more competent than your average dog owner.

We put up with them though because, undeniably, they bring a lot of happiness to a lot of people.

In reply to Grit Wraith: Every dog I have seen at the crag gets in the way unless its tied up,if there is food they will be straight over,they shit everywhere,and if the owners clean up after them they still leave the skid marks of shit that they cant get up,I would not think twice about kicking one out of my way epically if I was belaying,they are a pest,keep them at home and let them shit on your own garden not every piece of public grassed area in the country.

In reply to dan:
>I would not think twice about kicking one out of my way

After that comment, here's one old, skinny guy who would love to meet you at the crag.
I have a nice big dog so even an idiot like you shouldn't be able to miss him and we'll see who gets a kicking.
It's just a shame you don't have the balls to put up a profile.

In reply to anonymouse:
>

dee dums a dog jumps up and gets mud on you. Come on.

I'm not a fan of dogs at crags, mainly because all mine have been too bloody needy and pathetic to be content being tied up at the base. Some dogs are fine. I've no issues with a dog jumping up though, these things happen. And all the worrying about dog shit on their paws is just royally pathetic. There is shit and bacteria all over the countryside and your back gardens.

In reply to anonymouse: Good point re peoples behaviour, people never crap at crags, piss everywhere, steal, drop litter, drop fag ends...

In fact who does drop all the litter at crags because it's obviously never climbers, likewise fag ends on belay ledges, again can't be climbers...

Personally I find dogs far more predictable than people.

In reply to IainRUK:


That's not being attacked by a dog is it? And it's not what I was saying.


Yup, but I don't, out of choice, rub it all over myself. As I've said, this doesn't bother me too much. It happens. I'd rather I chose the circumstances, but that's life.

In reply to IainRUK:

True. Mind you, a climber has never actually pissed directly onto my belongings whilst I tried to shoo him (or her) away. There's hope for us yet.

In reply to Grit Wraith: Why dont you go climbing on a sea cliff or come to the wilds of scotland instead of looking for dogs to kick? I wish it had pinned you against "your" crag and given you a good seeing to! You are as soft as the shit on that dogs paws.

In reply to Grit Wraith:

Why do dog owners think their pets are well behaved, never bite and dont appreciate that some people do not like the actions of their dogs?

For example:

I park my car and a dog jumps up at the door scratching my paint. The owner isnt concerned. Later on I see the dog and owner again and this time the dog jumps up at me, ripping my clothing and covering me in slobber. The owner, "Oh he is just being friendly".

I am at the crag and a loose dog has it head in my ruck sack and eats my lunch. The owner apologisies but it doesnt stop me going hungry.

Then there are the many times I have trodden in the dog shite.

Dogs are fine if they do not invade peoples space, but unfortunatly many owners (it is the owners fault not the dogs) do not realise that many people do not like dogs. We do not like dogs jumping up at us, we do not like dog shit left lying around we do not like dogs barking.

If a dog runs at me my first reaction is to think it is attacking me. That is my natural reaction, not a thought process, a subconciuos response. So my first response is to go into defence mode which is to bare my teeth and snarl at it. I cant help this.

So dog owners please keep your dogs under control and appreciate that there are people out there who do not like dogs.

In reply to dan:

Most of the wierd attitudes about dog are from soft townies (probably). If you are not a townie you are out of place. The countryside isnt a city park or your back garden. Dogs and the countryside go together. Shit and the countryside go together. Deal with it. They can be a nuisance and sometimes a shove with the foot is required. They are loyal and keen to please. Most of the time for most people they are good fun. However, they are also pack animals not small children. A dog owner has certain responsibilities but not cow-towing to your tedious dogphobia and obsessive cleanliness in the great outdoors (still leave the skid marks) by keeping them at home.

In reply to JWB:
Well in this case, it's because of the certificates my dog and I earned from the Kennel Club good citizen scheme.

At the crag a few months ago a bunch of noisy students turned up, so of course my dog got interested (Akita's don't bark unless there is a very good reason and he didn't then). He was tied up and I was climbing.
Some mouthy girlie got on her high horse about me having “one of those dangerous dog” and was threatening to report me, etc, etc.
When I got down I told her where to go, in no uncertain terms. Her boyfriend tried to look hard and made a stupid mistake (after all, us dog owners are all cowards and I supposed big dog owners, doubly so). They left shortly after and peace returned.
Live and let live and the world will be a better (and possibly less painful) place.

In reply to shark:


The law says you have to deal with it, and for once I agree with the law. Roll on a heft dog tax "make the polluters pay" as the greenies say!

In reply to shark: Ive lived in the middle of northumberland most of my life,so im no townie.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

What are you talking about?

In reply to tede:

Do you mean you set your dog on the student? Or it was so badly trained it attacked him? In either case you can hardly be surprised that a lot of people are getting fed up with arrogant dog owners (they are to blame, not the dogs, as already said). You'll only have yourselves to blame when more restrictive laws concerning dog ownership are brought in.

In reply to dan:

Well stop being so precious then

In reply to shark:

Ask your moggie to read it for you, he'll probably understand better.

In reply to tede: Big dog, small dick - almost infallible rule, I reckon.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Read what? If you are talking about my dog's shit I'll get it out of people's way at the crag of course - that's commonsense - though I'm not aware of a law. By shit and the countryside going together I meant cowshit and sheepshit and other animal shit.

In reply to shark: cows and sheep are supposed to be shitting,plus its just mushed up grass!

In reply to Anonymous:

Really? my mrs would say that is not so, certainly not in my case anyway!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

That would be a hefty dog tax in.......France ?

In reply to Anonymous:

10/10 for the Alexei Sayle reference.

In reply to IainRUK:


Are you honestly suggesting that many of the people that have been bitten by dogs somehow deserve it? I apologize if that's not what you're saying, but that's what it seems like.

In reply to shark:


It's not the same sort of shit though, is it?

In reply to Sapper4083:

Both France and Britain.. France overtook Britain nor long ago as the biggest doggie owning country, I'm not sure if this was in the world or Europe though. A French speciality is that as you walk through villages and suburbs the raving, badly trained hounds leap furiously into the grill fences while yapping wildly in an attempt to get at you as you walk past....

Possibly Brussels should step in? I notice the anti-social selfishness of dog owners on both sides of the Channel, I couldn't say where it is worse. Personally I quite like dogs but don't own one as I reckon that there are enough mouths to feed already in the world and living as I do between Britain and France the travelling and vaccination problems are too much of a hassle... I don't feel the need for an affectionate animal to fill an empty life either, which seems to be the motivation of many "dog lovers".

In reply to Bruce Hooker: "and for once I agree with the law"

in a f*ckin nut shel....

In reply to tede:

You successfully defused that situation then. Well done.

In reply to anonymouse:

Have you any idea how much effort I put into training my dog to do all that?

In reply to IainRUK:
I've no issues with a dog jumping up though, these things happen.

Presumably you also don't mind when someone drives through a puddle next to you as you are walking down the road?


And all the worrying about dog shit on their paws is just royally pathetic. There is shit and bacteria all over the countryside and your back gardens.

But not generally all over my clothes, which I think is the OPs point

In reply to Bruce Hooker:> It's not the same sort of shit though, is it?


No shit!

My contention remains that town dandies reset appropriately their squeamish meter and attitude to animals before mincing off to the countryside.

The countryside is a busy place these days at least round our way and all users have to rub along with minimal impact to each other cutting each other a degree of lattitude. Dog owners can be selfish and irresponsible(I've made mistakes) but dog haters are being selfish too - wanting the countryside the way they want it.

Re-insert top-ropers / lead climbers or mountain bikers / walkers as appropriate.

In reply to Ridge:
It's the slightly sheepish look that got me. It kind of said "just doing my job".

In reply to JSA:


Thats not what she told me

In reply to Alan_2468:
the thing is he said he was aware it wasn't gona bite him! his only given reason was that he didnt want the dog making him dirty.

what i never understand is why is it when ever someone elss is responsible for making someone dirty it always seem that they were waring relay expensive clothing that has to be professionally cleaned at great expense? whats wrong with sticking it in the washing machine that most of us have at home?

In reply to zippy85:

Ok, let me get my head around your logic:

If a dog jumps up and down me and covers me in sh*t/dirt and I happen to have clean clothes on that need dry cleaning, this is my fault as I should get clothes 'that I can sick in the washing machine like most of us do'

So, your saying it's the persons fault for wearing the clean clothes not the dogs/owners?

In reply to zippy85:

The nincompoop in the expensive cashmere jumper and $300 shoes at Ilkley didn't find it easy to understand why I was so mad when he trod on my brand new climbing rope because it was "just a bit of rope". Some people just choose to spend their money on differently pointless things to you.

In reply to anonymouse:

It's either do the job or it's the shock collar...

My 2p worth as a recent dog owner:

A dog isn't a machine, where you can just set the switches so it doesn't jump or run about. It's not a human either, you can't reason with it or give it a list of things not to do and expect that it complies. It's a dog. The only way it learns is by (hopefully) positive reinforcement and also being exposed to situations that it's unfamiliar with and being taught the right way to behave in those situations. It's a long, slow and sometime fraught business. When we got our dog from the rescue centre he was absolutely mental, He wanted to chase anything and everything. The first walk involved us being pulled about by this bouncing, slavvering, yelping thing on a lead. At that point those who say all dogs should be on a lead at all times would have been spot on. It's then a slow process in getting it obedient in the garden and on the lead, then obedient on a long lead, then off the lead in an empty field, then on the lead with stock, then on a long lead with stock etc. The same with jumping up, they need to learn they can't do it, but the only way to train them is put them in a position they can lead up and then correct them if they try. Again you start with you, with friends, with aquaintances, and when you're reasonably confident you let them off the lead around strangers, (but not kids or people running about or who are obviously nervous), and get ready to grab the bloody thing. If it does jump up, you grab it and let it know in no uncertain terms it's in bother. You also apologise profusely to the victim, and to be honest I'm quite happy for them to give it quick whack just to add to the reinforcment. However, if it jumped up at a UKC internet hardman who tried to carry on booting it, I'd start doing some booting of my own, and not at the dog.
It's give and take to an extent. Mine's on a lead around town, around kids, around people running about, where someone's obviously nervous of it, or if there's a sign asking me to do so around livestock. Otherwise it's off the lead but under close control. If there's obviously no one around I'll let it have a mad run round or go rabbiting, but I'm always keeping an eye out for other people or livestock, at which point the dogs either back close or on the lead.
If you had a blanket law against dogs being off lead they'd get pent up, and if they slipped the lead for any reason they'd be very, very hard to control. You'd probably get more problems as the dog wouldn't progress much past the dragging the owner round stage.

Anyway, back to the flaming..

In reply to monkey1:

I had a snigger at this post too - doesn't do dog owners many favours does it?

E

In reply to IainRUK: I am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong but doest dog shit (of dogs that havent been wormed properly) contain a really nasty bug which causes blindness.

In reply to TraceyR:
Could be this:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/toxocara/factsht_toxocara.htm

I remember a neighbour who had a dog.
It did it's business on the lawn.
The owner would simply mow over it and spread it everywhere.
He had two daughters aged about 5 years and 7 years of age.
They were often out playing on the grass.
Nice.

In reply to TraceyR: Yes. So does lots of shit though, cats and foxes. It's also very very rare in the UK due to worming. It's exceptionally rare though. Less than 10 cases a year in the UK, and no longer a huge issue due to medical advances. Dog shits unpleasant, like most shit from carnivores, but the worm argument is over played.

In reply to IainRUK:

Cat shit is another story entirely. Toxoplasmosis is a really bad problem. Infection with Toxoplasmosis has been associated with some psychiatric problems and definite changes to human brains. Personally, i'd be happy if people kept their cats indoors so people cannot be infected. Especially children.

In reply to Ridge:

the most balanced post here so far ..HOORAH!!

with the exception of the shock collar

To all dog owners:

What would you do if your dog bit someone?

In reply to anonymouse: ask why?

In reply to Lusk: As I said I dont own any dog but do look after 2 quite often - and I also dont like dogs that jump up at me, growl, bark or leave their excrement for me to stand in, I do however own a cat but I still cant condone anyone who trys to control a dog by kicking it.

In reply to IainRUK:
The dog or the person?

In reply to Grit Wraith:

Wonderful little thread.

There's a flip side too, no-one seems to consider that the owner who lets his pet approach any human willy nilly might be careless of his charge and unfit to own the dog. Yet a parent that takes their eye off a child in a public space is seen as fair game.

I'd suggest that if your unsupervised dog gets hurt by a dog-hating human it's very much your fault too Mr or Ms Owner. There are many such people out there and you owe a greater duty to your pet. Animal ownership has responsibility your pet only has animal awareness and letting it interact with any human it meets is neglectful.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

What? And risk him getting hurt? Do you know how much vets charge? I deliberately left him behind whilst I 'diffused the situation'.

He officially has a good citizen certificate unlike his owner.

So many people, so worried about dog crap. Here's a question. How many people wash their shoes after going to toilet at the wall? Aerosol effect – lots of traffic. Think about it. Not many illnesses cross from dog to man, but man to man is another matter.

In reply to tede:


"The wall"?

Berlin, Hadrian's, the one that each teacher is a brick in, the one your dog, or I, just pissed on? This post is even more enigmatic than the first one!


PS. I think Wrongfoot is right on this one, he put into words what I was thinking in a fuzzier way... really dogs deserve better owners than many who have posted on this thread, as do the many badly trained hence aggressive dogs I see very day, including today.

As said already, an animal owner is responsible for the acts of his or her animal, many of you seem to forget this. There is absolutely no reason whey other people should be inconvenienced, scared, or bitten even by your dog. In the latter case the normal procedure should be putting the animal down and banning it's owner from owning any other dog... Plus a hefty fine and damages for the injured victim, of course.

In reply to Grit Wraith: I don't know about getting bitten by a dog at a crag but a few weeks ago I was climbing and there was a dog at the crag.

I don't have a problem with that and he came over to say hello again that was fine.

But when he started to show a little too much interest in my leg, foot, arm etc and tried to jump me everytime I sat down to put my shoes on I thought it would have been nice if his owner had called him off!

It did get a bit dangerous when he almost knocked me over when I was belaying.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Come off it Bruce, surely you know Tede means the indoor climbing walls. Fwiw I think he is making an extremely valid point.

In reply to tede:

I'd be far more worried about the people who don't wash their hands after a number 2, and then head straight back onto the climbing wall.

Normally urine doesn't have any germs in it, but poo contains 10000000000000 bacteria/ml.

I did have the misfortune to be at a climbing wall once when the toilet drains overflowed in a most unpleasant fashion (both solids and liquids). Totally gross!! At that particular wall I still wash my hands several times between climbing and eating for fear of what might have got onto the holds!

In reply to JSA:

A climbing wall? Then why didn't he say so... I've never been to one myself so the reference wasn't evident. People assume a lot, even that the rest of the world should have to put up with their four legged flea bags