UKC

For two/three years I've had a problem with my fingers going numb if the weather is cold. Spring and autumn rock does it really quickly.

Only it's gradually getting worse... my worst finger is my left thumb, and I've just realised it's numb now, even though I've been indoors for two hours, just from sitting at the computer. OK, so I've not got the heating on, but the house isn't freezing and I'm wearing a sweater.

Is there any point seeing a doctor about it... I'm assuming it's Reynaud's syndrome??? (If I've got the name right). Doesn't seem much point talking to my doctor is there's nothing they can do.

Anything I can do to improve or slow it? Exercises? Herb tea?

In reply to gingerkate:

go see your doctor about it and see if theres anything they can do. That would be on the basis that there a doctor and your not and if they can fix it you might as well go and find out
p

In reply to gingerkate:

if it's Reynaud's it's a circulatory thing so I suspect the doctors would be able to help you with that.

good luck. do they hurt when they stop being numb?

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:
It's just I don't like wasting their time and the NHS's money if there's no point. I know that there's no mainstream treatment for Reynauds.

In reply to CJD:

if its a cisculatory thing then you can do stuff to increase the blood flow to your hands. When I started training properly my fingers got more arteries going to them as they got stronger. I've got a fat arterie disappearing at the top of each finger. I also don't got cold fingers when its cold anymore. Get on some nice crimpy bouldering
p

In reply to gingerkate: Drink some tonic water, it helps with circulation - maybe a child asprin a day or half a normal asprin.

In reply to CJD:
No, they don't hurt, or not so it's bothered me. It's not something I'd want drugs for anyway, sledgehammers and nuts and all that.

Maybe there are some hand exercises?

In reply to gingerkate: Definately see your doctor. If it's reynauds they should be able to help. Numbness can indicate under active thyroid which I believe is treatable. I'm not a doctor btw, It could be anything or nothing, but a doc should be able to let you know and help you treat it if it is something. It can be a pain to sort appointments these days, but even if it's just peace of mind it's worth it. hth.

In reply to gingerkate:

there might be herbal supplements that help circulation. I'm sure there's definitely one but I can't remember what it's called.

In reply to gingerkate:


maybe squishing something between your fingertips? something like modelling clay or plasticine? it'd give you ace finger strength too!

In reply to gingerkate:
Apparently garlic is supposed to help with circulation - maybe try taking garlic capsules?

In reply to gingerkate: Is it getting worse? or are you now climbing in the winter so its more noticeable.

I've always had cold hands, I lose them very easily on a climb, they just go numb like blocks, totally unusable. yet my bodies warm. Never worried much about it, sea birds have a similar mechanism to prevent cold feet when landing on ice bergs etc, just a mechanism for maintaining core body heat and reducing heat loss, at what point your body swicthes off the extremeties varies between people IMO.

In reply to Davvers:
Oh alright then! I doubt it's anything other than crap circulation but I'll see her and check. At least that way I can ask if she recommends the asprin suggestion of Sohotrockstar.

Cheers.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

its a problem when your climbing as it reduces your pain sensation and leaves you vulnerable to strains in your fingers. When i boulder in the winter i tend to stand around with my hands down my fleece trousers which keeps them super warm and as a side effect stops people from coming near me
p

In reply to gingerkate:

Possibility it might be Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. Get it checked out.

In reply to CJD:
Mate of mine says ginseng, but I tried it for a while with no result. May try again. Yeah, maybe an exercise ball would help.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Yeah, much worse, it only started about three years back, I can't climb out in cold weather now, they just go totally numb and stop working properly. This is the first time it's done it indoors though.
Just got the felling back by sucking my thumb...

In reply to gingerkate: gingerkate: sounds like raynards -

i have it as well as my bf.
theres a few good sites to look at. doc's often dont understand the situ so dont be put off if they cant help much. it gets worse the more exposure to the cold you get, so wrap up hands and feet when you go out to help.
you can get tablets that are supposed to help but i wouldnt want to be taking them for the rest of your life...

if you find out any good info - please mail me
ps. maybe check with docs for peace of mind as us rt'ers arent docs after all

In reply to Wingnut:
Cheers, will try gralic as well then.

In reply to Adders:

Oh, I didn't know that! Thanks, I will take more care then.


Me neither, not just for a numb thumb.

I'll see what my doc says, and report back if I find anything good!

In reply to Adders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynaud%27s_disease

could be anything from a fancy name for cold fingers to requiring amputation
p

In reply to gingerkate:

My girlfriend has reynauds - affects her fingers and her toes.
It can start anywhere from in the supermarket to in the house when the heating is on.
On the hill it does com on quite a bit. When she started walking / climbing she kept heater pads on all the time but the problem with this is that she gets the numb tingling pins and needles feeling when the circulation returns which in her case is quite painful.
After some sever winter days last year she now goes without as eventually the circulation does come back naturally when you are active so it doesnt pose her any real problems as such.

Unfortunatly there is no known cure and is a hereditory thing as well apparently. She has had it all her life and im not aware that it can start later in life but i may be wrong in this.
If you havent had it before id go to the Doc and get it checked out as it may be something else.

Incidentally Reynauds is similar to one of the first stages of frostbite and all the blood seemingly drains from the fingers leaving them really white looking with no sensation at all. I couldnt believ it when i saw it for the first time - a very strange condition!!!

GO see about it minimise the worry!!

In reply to gingerkate: yep its de generative(sp) so take care not to get too cold....

goodluck

In reply to gingerkate:

A friend of mine has poor circulation in her hands and she says tht steering clear of caffeine helps a bit.

If you want to get some feeling in your hands for climbing, before you set off swing your arms around in a circle, gradually increasing the speed. Don't stop until your hands feel heavy.

If you're on a belay ledge or somewhere you don't have room to swing, try the penguin dance. Stand with your arms straight by your side and point your palms to the ground with your fingers pointing in opposite directions away from your body. Now pump your shoulders up & down and you should feel blood rushing to your hands.

In reply to steev: http://www.raynauds.org.uk/flash_content.html this sites quite good kate

In reply to gingerkate:

Garlic and ginko biloba help with circulation.

Theres obviously some kind of blockage in your circulation to your arms. Has there ever been any muscular trauma damage to your elbows?

ever done a job where u use your arms a lot?

ever injured your elbows or shoulders climbing?

In reply to steev:
Yep, I have the same problem, especially in my toes- one or two of them have bween known to go white and numb for a whole weekend when camping. I've just got some of those handwarmer things to try and put in my socks in my sleeping bag when i go to bed to defrost my toes! It doesn't help being small either, as there's always a load of cold air in the unfilled bit at the bottom of the sleeping bag. I'm, not looking foward to trying to climb this winter either, but I'll try some of the above tips!

Cat

In reply to everyone:
Right, I'll get on the garlic and the ginko (btw it was ginko, not ginseng, I was muddled).
I will wrap up warm.
I will try strengthening my fingers.
I will wave my arms around when I need to try and get feeling back.
I will drink tonic water... well, I may, I don't like tonic water!
And I'll see that doctor, just in case, and I'll see what she says about aspirin too.

Paul, I don't think it's caused by injuries, it's just poor circulation.

Any other self-help ideas? That's quite a lot anyway, cheers very much.

In reply to freerangecat:
Another thing- I find wearing gloves doesn't help much (unless its raining/snowing, as there isn't enough heat alredy in my hands/fingers to warm the gloves up, so I just make sure that i buy fleeces adn jumper with long enough sleeves to tuck my hands inside completely- doesn't look great (according to my mother!) but it's the only way I can keep the feeling in my fingers in winter!

Cat

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: I now have loads of pairs of mitts to keep my hands warm, in the winter for a few days trip I'll take about 2 pairs of mitts, and two pairs of under gloves and just keep one pair always fry to re warm.

Not climbed much on rock in winter for a few years now though but I remember calling to my mate to ask him if my Jam looked OK as I couldn't feel anything, that was on kinder downfall about 10 years ago at christmas.

In reply to freerangecat:
That's what I find with gloves too. Maybe I will buy a bigger size jacket next time so I can get my hands all teh way in like you do, at mo they just go half in which helps but doesn't stop it.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:
Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone know, does it make you more prone to frostbite? I'm assuming it must?

In reply to gingerkate:

would mittens help at all instead of gloves? I say that as my stepdad sometimes gets numb fingers when riding his motorbike, so has switched to some weird gloves where there are two big 'fingers' each with two fingers in, so he can rub them against one another to get warm (if that makes sense).

In reply to CJD: i think there called lobster claws? i know o neil do simular for skiing

In reply to gingerkate: You haven't been a plater or corker in the past have you?
Vibration white finger(hand arm vibration syndrome nowadays) causes these problems, and yes from what I've been told you can be more prone to frost nip/bite.

Iain

In reply to gingerkate:
I've got Raynauds but I haven't found a good way of preventing it yet. I struggle to rock climb on cold days and you can normally hear me half way up an ice route cursing loudly as the hot aches take over. When your fingers go white do your nailbeds go purple/blue too? Keeping your wrists warm does help so maybe make some wrist warmers out of powerstretch. I've heard that half an asprin does work but never tried it myself. I think it's pot luck with your doctor but I've found that female docs seem to know more about it.

Blane

In reply to CJD: Yep, mittens are way better than gloves.

(string up the sleeves optional

Iain

In reply to CJD:
They might actually. I have sort of done that with my big gloves (put my little fingers in with the next up) because the gloves by isolating my fingers weren't helping at all.

In reply to gingerkate:

I have a similar problem (which is often accompanied by dislocating fingers, but then I'm just a freak).

It's almost certainly circulatory, but you should definitely go to see your doctor. Reynaud's type symptoms can be secondary symptoms - it's as well to get yourself checked out, or you might end up 'wasting' a lot more of the NHS's time.

KB (Prophet of Doom)

In reply to gingerkate:

Yeah I'm pretty sure it does. I was boarding in Canada a few years back(it was -26ish) and it took me 6-8 weeks to to loose the tenderness and get full feeling back in my big toes.

In reply to SFM:
Yes, purple nailbeds.
Wrist warmers sounds an idea.

In reply to djviper:

Mammut and Black Diamond used to do them too. You also get trigger finger mitts.

In reply to gingerkate:

I stopped smoking and take ginko & garlic tabs and now no longer have any probs with hands. Quitting the tabs definitely helped, but if you don't smoke ginko & garlic may be worth a shot.

If it's really bad I'd see a doc though.

In reply to gingerkate: Reynaud's (or maybe vibration white finger)- try not to grasp jessica so tightly..

In reply to gingerkate:

I read an article in the US mag Climbing a (fair) number of year's ago by a (winter) climber who had Reynaud's. It's something along the lines of an oversensitive response to cold shutting down capilary circulation sooner than your average person's, to give you numb peripheral's(ooer). He managed to "train" his body's response to cold successfully (enough to write the article, anyway) to function happily (for a winter climber) by doing various exercises. One was sitting in a warm bath with his hands in ice buckets (don't get the two mixed up!) and various other "biofeedback" type excercises associating warm thoughts with relaxation and increased peripheral circulation. There was/is a whole science derived from yogic mind-body control exercises (all aboard the flying carpet...) which developed exercises for your average joe to improve circulation problems (like recovering from frostbite). The science has probably vastly improved in the intervening year's and I'd expect there's lot's more info "out there".
Climbing is a pretty extreme test for such a condition: you're hanging a good few kilos off your digits and squashing the blood out of them like treading on a toothpaste tube. GP's will probably give lots of sensible advice to help people who have to lug their shopping home without their fingers falling off, and this should help, some of which has probably mentioned in the thread, like reducing intake of stuff which promotes constriction of capilaries (your 20 B&H a day, caffeine etc) and increasing your intake of stuff which promotes circulation: thins the blood, dilates capilaries (garlic?, aspirin (stomache ulcers in the long term), a tot of rum before the crux...). A good warming up sesh will help before climbing, windmilling arms, more core layers etc...

But I think to really improve the problem, and alter your nervous system's responses, you'll have to get on the "wierd stuff" and aim for some long term improvement.

Don't forget to write the article when you crack it...

Good luck.

PS or have a walk around your local crags in winter and see what tricks people have, chat to people on ice-screw belays?

In reply to Jonny Tee 69:
I don't smoke, and someone mentioned caffeine but I hardly have any caffeine either, so not much I can quit really.

I have actually just rung up and made an appointment to see the doctor, see what she says.

In reply to gingerkate:

eee it's grim. I always think it looks like you've got dead fingers. For your feet those down booties are great. Ellis Brighams sell them, Serria designs make them. They're about £25ish so could be a good Christmas/birthday pressie for yourself. For fingers either powerstretch gloves under a windproof glove or mitts work for me.

In reply to gingerkate:

Apologies if I'm repeating stuff other people have said; not read whole thread.

I have Raynaud's. It's distinguished from just getting cold fingers by the fingers going blue or white, as the circulation pretty much stops. Often only in the end section(s) of a digit.

It's a neurological problem that causes constriction of the arterioles (small arteries). It's exacerbated by stress, and isn't necessarily dependent on ambient temperature.

My mum suffered from it too, and was offered surgery to cut the sympathetic nerves. Unfortunately, this has frequent side-effects, such as the inability top regulate temperature of extremities, and sweaty palms. Not sure I'd recommend it. Hers stopped when she started taking blood pressure tablets.

I've found that keeping hydrated (to keep the blood thin), and maintaining food intake help to ease it. And keeping the wrists and forearms warm to help keep the blood vessels open; extermities will close earlier if cold.

I don't take any supplements, but things such as gingko biloba are sometimes recommended for assisting circulation, especially in smaller blood vessels (e.g. also suggested for tinnitus, on the basis that improving blood flow to the ears may help).

Oh, and a small amount of alcohol may help, being a vasodilator. (Incidentally, I found an abstract of some DoD research that suggested alcohol doesn't increase the risk of hypothermia.)

If your thumb is just numb, I'd suggest it isn't Raynaud's.

And yes, it does increase the risk of frostbite and chilblains.

In reply to gingerkate: I know a woman who suffered from it pretty badly. Having her first child was a virtual miracle cure for her - it seemed to totally alter her metabolism. This option is only available to women unfortunately.

In reply to gingerkate:

Yep, I get the blue/purple nailbeds too. Mittens sound like a good idea- anyone know where to get any nice snug fleecy ones?
Cat

In reply to gingerkate: Looks like you'll have to stop the road breaking and pneumatic drill use!

In reply to all:

What the doctor said:
She doesn't think it's Raynaud's because although my fingers do go fairly white they don't go dramatically white then blue, (or other way round). Nor does the colour return suddenly and painfully ... the numbness can get so bad it hurts, but warming up again doesn't hurt.

She thinks it's just poor circulation to my extremities (my feet do it too, a bit) and she has similar. Getting worse is just something that can happen, as it hasn't got suddenly dramatically worse.

She advises against aspirin at present, because of it having serious side-effects and because I've no family history of heart disease or stroke.

And she says ginko doesn't seem to have bad side effects so I can try it and see if it helps.

So, I'll get taking ginko and garlic for a couple of months, and see how it goes.

Thanks again for all the helpful comments!

In reply to gingerkate:

Omega 3 fish oils may help with circulation, as will exercises that improve peripheral heart action (PHA).

Don't know whether you've asnwered these questions above (and please don't answer on here as the info is personal) but are you diabetic, vegetarian, suffer from hypothyroidism, are you a smoker, have you had arterial or vascular surgery or have you ever been frostbitten in your fingers and toes?

If no to the above then PHA exercises may indeed help.

Good luck

DJ

In reply to Deejay:
Thank you!
I take cod liver oil, is that omega 3?
And 'no' to all those questions.
What sort of exercises improve PHA?

In reply to gingerkate:

I had a spate of this about two years ago, and I thought it must be Reynauds. One of the odd things about it was that my fingers didn't hurt when they warmed up again like they used to, and another thing was that it happened when I wasn't particularly cold; usually in the car, or standing at the bottom of the crag belaying. I had a friend who has always had Reynauds, and she was sceptical about mine being that because although my fingers were numb and white, I didn't find it as distressing as she thought I would. I tried lots of things, and one thing that seemed to help was keeping my wrists warm. By doing this it seemed to me I could get normal cold fingers but avoid the numbness. The first time after this that my fingers hurt as they were warming up I was delighted. The summer of last year, it improved a lot and I had very few attacks. Last winter I had a good winter mountaineering season and didn't get it at all, and have had no incidences of it this summer either, so presumably whatever it was has improved. So don't assume you are stuck with it forever.

In reply to gingerkate:

Cod liver oil - not sure, won't do any harm though.

PHA exercises are a basic range of exercises (e.g. lunges, shoulder press, squats, hammer curls etc.) which are done at low weight & high reps alternately (upper body then lower, then upper and so on). After a warm up run of around 30 mins start exercising.

The aim of PHA exercise is to increase capillarisation in the extremities. When done correctly this type of exercise can be gruelling.

Alternatively do what Hermann Buhl (Nanga Parbat pilgrimage) used to do - run with snow (or in the UK try ice) in your hands. Hurts like hell but also helps with hypercapillarisation.

Good luck,

DJ

In reply to Alison Stockwell:
That's interesting. I wonder if there is something I'm doing or not doing that is making it worse then, rather than it just being age. Maybe all this sitting working at computer means I am inadvertantly doing less stuff that is good for this PHA thing.

In reply to Deejay:
Cheers. I'm crap at sticking to exercising, I climb and I walk and that's it. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe I should join a gym or something.

In reply to gingerkate:

Do you use a wrist rest when working at the PC, do you take frequent breaks and exercise your wrists during those breaks?

Worth thinking about if you don't.

DJ

In reply to Deejay:
I rest my arm on the chair arm, because I have a gammy shoulder. I don't take breaks much really, not when I'm working hard. So maybe if I rotate wrists a bit it might help?

I wondered if it was just my upper body doesn't get as much exercise as it used to.

In reply to gingerkate:

I was looking up nutrition information on the VeganSociety website the other day, and saw this about iodine, and Hypothyroidism - which can lead to Raynard's Phenomenon...

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/iodine.php

In reply to Dominion:
Thanks Dom. That's worth considering, but I don't think I can be iodine deficient as my vitamin supplements have 100% of the rda in them, and I do eat pretty healthily really (apart from occasional chocolate binges and I'm not a veggie.