UKC

What is is with these birds!1 two years ago they wiped out a song thrush next, last year cleaned out a blackbird nest with chicks, and for the hat trick they have cleaned out a collard dove nest at dawn today.

I’m well loosing patience here. 

 I know they have to look affect their young etc, but when I was young, way back when they were a country bird, but they have increasingly moved into towns and cities.  We live on the edge of a town, and it is getting depressing to see our smaller birds wiped out year on year.  Are they a big factor in the general decline of garden birds, perhaps as much as the moggy.

 

 

In reply to kipper12:

Probably the same as the moggy. This article shows how significant the bird lovers feel cats and magpies are... https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-for-wildlife/an...

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/wildlife-guides/bird-a-z/magpie/...

In reply to kipper12:

Buy yourself a Larsen trap and get rid of the bloody things. I’ve had 18 in 2 weeks so far, and plan on continuing trapping until the end of May. 

There’s  plenty of info out there on how to use a Larsen, and check out Corvid Exchange on FB if you’re stuck for a call bird. 

In reply to Fozzy:

Aren't they only supposed to be used under licence which includes, amongst other things, written permission from the Local Authority and/or a Conservation Body?

 

In reply to FactorXXX:

Nope, they are covered by the General License, in this case with reference to the conservation of wild birds. 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prevent-wild-birds-damaging-your-land-farm-or-b...

In reply to Fozzy:

 

Fair enough, but I think you might be taking the concept of 'Conservation of Wild Birds' a bit out of context.

In reply to FactorXXX:

I carry out the trapping are to protect songbirds as well as preventing predation of wild pheasant & partridge nests on our land. 

Since I started hitting the magpies hard (including blowing their nests out with the shotgun whenever I find one), the songbirds & other various LBJs have really thrived. 

In reply to kipper12:

Same as sparrow hawks. But they are raptors and so have a lot more support.

In reply to Fozzy:

Little bastards.Yep, I've concluded that killing them is the only way

In reply to Fozzy:

My call bird should be arriving in a couple of days, we sort the maggies every spring and I firmly believe it makes a local difference. 

In reply to Moley:

It really does. The damage they do is blatantly obvious and they need controlling.

 

The issue we have is one of the neighbours is a raving idiot if an anti so no vermin at all is controlled on his land & comes over the boundaries constantly. I’ve had the majority of my magpies in the orchard that borders his land. 

In reply to Fozzy:

They are more intelligent than their food and do far less killing than you. Just saying.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Far fewer of them than the magpies, they are all over the place

In reply to kipper12:

it's terrible being a magpie. I can't choose what I want to eat like you. I have to take what I find.  I've been doing this for a few million years.  We've never exterminated anything, once there are too few prey or food we move on.  we just try to survive.  Of course we eat song bird chicks.  You eat baby lambs, chickens.  Unlike you lot we've not made anything rare or extinct.  Anyway what's so special about song birds? It's not our fault you don't like our song.

 

 

In reply to Fozzy:

May I ask how exactly you have assessed this? Because if the damage magpies do to songbird populations is truly blatantly obvious, it seems strange that the RSPB and BTO have not managed to find any evidence of it in a detailed analysis of 35 years of population data. Here is a quote from ceri's second RSPB link above:

"To find out why songbirds are in trouble, the RSPB has undertaken intensive research on species such as the skylark and song thrush. To discover whether magpies could be to blame for the decline, the RSPB commissioned the British Trust for Ornithology (BTO) to analyse its 35 years of bird monitoring records.

 

The study found that songbird numbers were no different in places where there were many magpies from where there are few. It found no evidence that increased numbers of magpies have caused declines in songbirds and confirms that populations of prey species are not determined by the numbers of their predators. Availability of food and suitable nesting sites are probably the main factors limiting songbird populations."

 

 

In reply to Fozzy:

"Predation of wild pheasant......." 

Which native wild species of pheasant are they predating?

Killing a native species to preserve "wild" pheasant nests seems bloody stupid.

One of the reasons omnivorous / scavenger species like magpie and crow are so numerous is the introduction of thousands of non native game birds that end up as roadkill and therefore an unnatural food source. 

In reply to kipper12:

Killing, it's just nature in action.
Have you lost patience with homo sapiens yet?

In reply to Fozzy:

Are you a gamekeeper?

 

In reply to FactorXXX:

I look after the game on my modest amount of land to enable a small amount of it to be harvested for the table during the season, with a lot more being left alone. We don’t put birds down, just protect & feed those who happen to already be there to enable them to breed successfully in the wild (which they do). 

In reply to Wicamoi:

I’ve watched them take out nests, killing all the chicks but only taking one or two to eat, as well as seing them plunder eggs and destroy entire clutches. 

Putting aside some of the the anthropomorphic nonsense above, if you stop and watch them long enough, you’ll see full well that they cause damage.  The countryside isn’t a wilderness environment, it’s one that’s been managed by man for many centuries.

Crops are sprayed for bugs, alongside rabbits & deer being culled to protect them. That happens daily and I see nobody complaining about that (maybe because they don’t realise it happens). I see no difference between a farmer protecting his crops from predation that way and me protecting the modest amount of naturally breeding game birds I’ll harvest for the table this coming winter, alongside protecting the nests of the songbirds and various other LBJs that happen to be nesting around our fields and woods. 

In reply to Fozzy:

They don't cause damage though, they exist with far less impact than you do. They cause you financial strife and so you take matters into your own hands, the same way we have been for hundreds of years and the reason why our ecology is so shagged. Just because it benefits you to cull them doesn't justify it. The same way farmers trap and kill birds of prey.

We've spent so long destroying the countryside and ended up in this horrible unnatural state and now we've got crazy people trying to maintain it with their idea of nature as the driving force. The reason we cull deer is because our natural ecosystem is so out of balance we killed all of their natural predators to protect our financial interests (sound familiar?) and  now there's nothing left to do but manage them ourselves. 

Don't get defensive when you don't get the congratulatory pat on the back you hoped for. There's plenty of people who share your me first world view. 

In reply to Billhook:

Unlike some, I like an imbalance of species in my garden and wood, you see, I enjoy feeding the birds and watching them through the winter months. This artificial process has probably saved many (especially smaller species like wrens) through this winter and there are now more adults coming into the spring to use all those artificial nest boxes that I put up in the wood.

Perhaps the RSPB would disapprove of my interference with nature, but tough, I'll carry on.

So when the magpies (they are building a nest across the field) start raiding nests I get peeved, they have every right to eat nestlings and pro-create their own, it is what they do. But I like sticking up for the little defences guys, the underdogs, so I also do what comes naturally to me and kind of "balance the books" a little by taking out the maggies. It's just tough being a magpie around my patch.

In reply to dilatory:

By that logic, do you suggest that I stop controlling the foxes that predate upon my lambs? That he farmer next door shouldn’t be spraying his crops to remove pests, maintain high output and keep food prices down?  That approach is utterly illogical & impractical.

I don’t profit from the gamebirds (2 or 3 mornings a winter walking round with a couple of mates & our spaniels, trying for a dinner or two, hardly makes us a commercial venture), I just like to have them there and if that means getting rid of magpies so be it. 

 

In reply to Fozzy:

Hi Fozzy - we disagree, but I see where you're coming from. It's quite interesting and in many ways admirable to see the protective, paternal stance you take on the one hand over the songbirds, while on the other you happily help along another species of bird in order that there are more of them to kill. A complex set of feelings, ideas, and beliefs are involved I think, and I'm not seeking to dissuade you from your chosen path - because I know I'd fail!

However, I think science can be useful to us, and it's worth pointing out that there is no contradiction between your observations of magpie depredations of songbirds on your patch, and the large-scale population monitoring of the RSPB. It is not in doubt that magpies kill songbirds, but what is harder to detect - requiring large-scale, long-term monitoring and sophisticated statistics - is whether or not they actually affect songbirds populations. And from the RSPB/BTO work it seems they do not. In that sense it is true that magpies do not damage songbird populations.

So how do we square this with your observations - easy. Magpies are killing birds that would have died anyway of something else - other predators, disease, starvation and so on. So it is likely that year to year the number of breeding songbirds is not affected by your labours with the Larsen trap. Most likely the nestlings you save will starve/be predated before the end of their first winter. While, therefore, it is likely true that the magpie control has no long-term impact, it may mean that there are more juveniles around in summer and autumn, desperately trying to find non-existent territories. And, as moley suggests, if you have a comprehensive feeding programme you might even boost over-winter survivorship a little for some species. 

But on the other hand there are definitely now fewer magpies. And I like magpies. They are clever and cheeky, and yes, a bit murderous, but they have to make a living somehow, same as us. 

In reply to Moley:

Good post. Things are complicated. There's no correct answer. Everything has to be totally right, or completely wrong,, evil, and nasty these days.

In reply to Fozzy:

Interfering with nature isn't logical. Doing so for profit even less so. Practical? By whose measure? Should I dump chemicals in the river because it costs me time and money to dispose of them properly? Should I lob my rubbish out of the window because I don't see the point in dealing with the problem?

We've had so many years of people doing the things that best profit themselves that run us into all these problems and we think the best way to deal with it is by getting more involved and trying to micromanage and maintaining this broken unsustainable ecosystem anyway. 

In reply to dilatory:

Interfering with nature may not seem logical to you, but we live on a piss pot sized island, overcrowded with 60 million humans and pressures on everywhere to produce something. Not interfering or attempting to conserve or manage would be disastrous for many species.

In reply to Fozzy:

Have you considered eating the magpie? I can supply a recipe.

In reply to Philip:

So that's what everyone is talking about with 420 day?! 

In reply to Wicamoi:

Good points made. Looking at this from another angle, we (our neighbour) have free range chickens and ducks in the field by our house and we look after them, he sells a few surplus eggs by the side of the road. At night we shut them up and let them out in the morning, they are hand fed so absolutely no food wastage or hoppers of surplus food about.

Inevitably we now have a bit of a rat problem, they take the eggs out of the hutch and nest boxes and I am sure may kill the chicks that a broody hen is currently sitting on. Magpies will also do this but haven't started yet - to my knowledge.

Today I have trapped (in live cage trap) and killed 2 rats, am I interfering with nature, should I let the status quo  be or am I justified killing them off? I will add that we have no shortage of predators with a healthy population of polecats, foxes, badgers, stoats and all raptors.

In reply to kipper12:

So it appears many think that because Magpies predate 'song birds' whatever species that is, I take it you don't mind them killing non songbirds?

Many songbirds predate on rare insects such as species of insects such as Meloidae,  Chrysopidae, Lepidoptera, some of which are now rare.  I even saw a Blackbird yesterday killing and eating a rather rare earthwork, D.Pygmaea.  I've also seen Spotted Flycatchers (luckily they don't sing much so really don't count as song birds), catch Marsh Fritillaries - but who cares about them.  So lets protect our insects and shoot all the ruddy 'song birds'.

And perhaps can you explain, how, if the magpie eats all the smaller song birds every year, what are they then eating if there's non left and where do the next years crop of young song birds come from?

 

 

 

In reply to kipper12:

Not too keen on Magpies I must admit but as good old SNP took away my air pistol (or tagged me as a criminal!) I can't shoot anything. Those of shooting bent however might be interested in SNH take on Ravens. It appears just possible that our Grouse/Mountain Hare shooting (massacre) fraternity might have something to do with this or am I getting just a tad cynical. Have a wee look at: https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2018/04/22/raven-cull-updat...

In reply to dilatory:

4 and 20  !

In reply to Alan Breck:

Ravens are a massive pain for sheep farmers. They kill lambs, and work together to do so. You can’t blame farmers for wanting to protect their livelihood. 

 

Also, a tad hypocritical that you complain that you can’t shoot anything anymore but then criticise others who do shoot. Jealous much? 

In reply to Fozzy:

Hen harriers are not popular with some people who work in the countryside, either.

In reply to kipper12:

There might be fewer sparrowhaks than magpies in number but they are on the green list and the population is increasing fairly rapidly.

Added to which, I have never understood why there being plenty of a certain species accords it fewer rights than another. Using that logic it's more acceptable to shoot a buzzard than an osprey.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

I agree with you Tom.  But it appears it is more acceptable to shoot a buzzard if you are a game keeper or own a shoot.

In reply to kipper12:

They're intelligent, adaptable birds who, along with other corvids, seem to suffer from a peculiar form of discrimination based largely on rural/suburban heareay  - such as this persistent song-bird myth. 

I'm happy to see them in my garden

In reply to Bulls Crack:

There is clearly something going on with our song birds, and almost certainly multi-factoral.

I wasn't aware of any Corvid-song bird myth.  I was simply asking the question.  I can't help noticing that magpies in particular appear to have increased in numbers, and become more urban over the last 20-30 years. 

 

 

In reply to kipper12:

They have indeed increased - to quote the RSPB:

'Urban and suburban magpies increased much faster than rural populations. In towns they are not persecuted, there is more food available, magpies will nest close to people, which protects their nests from crows, and they can breed earlier in the year because towns are warmer than the surrounding countryside.'
 

Good luck to them!

 

In reply to Bulls Crack:

As I said earlier, just like sparrowhawks.

 

In reply to kipper12:

Any definition of a 'song bird'?

In reply to Fozzy:

Obviously my tongue somewhat in cheek didn't register. Just for your information I don't shoot anything. I've no objection to those who shoot apart from those who think that it's a sport. As regards my objectionable air pistol I used it for target practice in my garden.

On the subject of  Ravens it seems that a long term "plan" to shoot them and see what happens might be a little misguided but it's not the farmers who run things up here but the landowners. I.e. Those from Hong Kong, various Arab countries etc.

On topic of Magpies they are creeping North. Used to be around Glasgow way but I've seen a few now in north Perthshire. Can't see for sure if the actual numbers of birds have increased but their range certainly has.

In reply to Alan Breck:

Well observed! https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/wildlife-guides/bird-a-z/magpie 

In reply to kipper12:

And back to Ravens again: http://www.christownsendoutdoors.com/2018/04/in-praise-of-ravens.html

Another point of view on sic like birds.

In reply to Alan Breck:

Ravens can be a massive problem for sheep farmers, especially during lambing time but also with mislaid adult sheep.

Forget about gamekeepers persecution (around here), to the sheep farmer they do not endear themselves and are looked upon as an enemy. They are lovely and interesting birds in their own right, but I can see it from the other side as well, having newborn lambs killed and adult sheep basically eaten alive (they take the eyes and then open the soft belly up to get at the insides) they are bound to become an enemy of the upland farmer. Being highly intelligent it doesn't take long for new birds to learn these bad habits from others.

I don't know anything about the area mentioned, is it sheep farming country? Farmers may well have been after the cull.

In reply to Moley: There are certainly sheep around but a lot of the area is just moorland. It’s more likely therefore that the estates are protecting their land for shooting. The Cairngorms that Chris is talking about aren’t wall to wall sheep. Deer, mountain hare, grouse etc.

Sympathise with the sheep farmers but a large cull just to see what will transpire seems a bit drastic and would appear to show considerable lack of thought. Doesn’t help with Magpies!

 

In reply to Moley:

When I lived in Eire ravens were common everywhere, not just the mountains and they frequented farmland around our house.  All our neighbours were farmers and the subject of 'vermin' crows and ravens et al, came up from time to time.

"Peck the eyes out of live sheep", "kill lambs" and so on.  But every time I asked  a farmer if they'd actually seen a raven or crow do these things to a live healthy lamb or sheep the answer was always, "no", but they did know a farmer who has seen it.  In one instance I was told which farmer had seen it happen, and later met him.  On asking him he said he'd never actually seen it happen but he knew a farmer who had.........

 

In reply to Billhook:

A quick google search seems to throw up quite a lot of evidence, can't discredit it all however much some may wish to. Such as this youtube.com/watch?v=KpphQ9_OWQw&  I know the lamb isn't killed but it is pretty obvious what is happening.

Personally, at our old house where there were a lot of ravens, I several times came across cast ewes that were still alive with ravens flying off them when I appeared, Eyes, tongue, guts etc. attacked - good enough evidence to convince me.

Where we live now, there are few ravens.

In reply to Moley:

Interesting video.

Do you know where it was filmed?  There's no information on the film and although it says BBC Lambing Live it doesn't appear to be posted by the BBC. And the quality is poor.  Unless I'm mistaken (my hearing isn't too hot these days), the birds singing at 1'20 are sound like Australian Magpies.  And some of the other bird songs I don't recognise.

Our ravens are about the same size as the two Australian species - which is about buzzard size and this should surely make them the same hight as a lamb?  The ones in the film look a little on the small size for ravens - but no bother they are obviously crows of some species or other.

Either way, I'm not disputing corvoids  attack lambs, or sheep - and this video is only evidence that they appear to be pecking at the lamb's legs?  Perhaps I'm splitting hairs?

I'd be most interested in whether the ewes you've seen were already down/disabled  when attacked.   I can't quite understand how a Raven could actually disable a healthy ewe.  I mean ewes  are not exactly passive are they?

In reply to Billhook:

Most of the raven/lamb stories appear either to be in the farming or right-wing press. For ravens substitute urban-foxes, badgers, crows or whatever other scapegoat (maybe them too) the industry wants to pick on. 

In reply to Bulls Crack:

You’re surprised that the agri press is covering stories that affect farmers? 

And I’m unsure what you’re suggesting the ravens are a scapegoat for? Is there something else pecking out the eyes of lambs that’s getting away with it instead? 

In reply to kipper12:

Surely it's human actions that have created an unfavourable habitat for other birds, who are we to decide that the only birds which are thriving in the world which we created are unworthy and should be killed. It is us and our consumer choices which should be blamed for the decrease in all global biodiversity, not a few magpies who are just trying to survive. If you want songbirds then maybe support organic farming practices which work with nature next time you're in the supermarket, stop driving or flying, but don't blame magpies for a problem for which you are far more responsible. 

 

In reply to AJM79:

Exactly. Corvids are adaptable scavengers and can take  advantage better than many species of the increasingly sterile farmscapes that we now create. They then get blamed for 'scaring away' song/field birds etc. 

 

I can't help wondering whether being big and black has something to do with their negative image? 

 

As for problem levels re pecking lambs eyes out . I'll wait for some firm evidence rather than relying on the rural heresay. If you told farmers that hedgehogs were rolling on sleeping lambs to gouge out their eyes there'd be a campaign to eradicate the spiney pests. 

In reply to Fozzy:

I'm not remotely surprised that the Mail etc run such stories. They like having a regular 'pest' species to run poorly researched stories about. Foxes, spiders,  immigrants etc

In reply to Fozzy:

There's no disputing that many corvoids will peck out the eyes of any dead animal. It is the easiest bit of an animal to access, the anus and mouth parts being next. I've also seen herring gulls do the same here on the coast. 

I've watched many birds and animals feed off dead sheep .

If an owner of a lamb or or adult sheep discovers eyes pecked out on a newly fallen (dead) animal, etc.,  the owner often assumes that the animal was attacked whilst it was alive.  

However there seems to be a lack of evidence that any corvoid, can successfully attack a sheep, make it fall over and  incapacitate it enough so it can then peck its eyes out, then its toungue and so on whilst the animal is still active.  It is unlikely that having its eyes pecked out will actually kill a lamb - their mothers are quite protective at lambing time.

Lambs & adult sheep are often left to fend for themselves.  Lambs die in cold & wet weather, commonly within the 1st week  or two after birth.  Sheep dead on our moorland are normally left where they fall.   And that is when  corvoids are normally blamed for killing them/pecking their eyes out - when they are already dead.

"Thanks" wholly or partly to me (sorry) this seems to have wandered from Magpies to Ravens. Usual UKC I suppose.

Anyway over on: https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/     there's quite a wheen of information and comments on how SNH apparently see their remit of "Connecting People and Nature in Scotland" While not particularly agreeing with everything that's been said I did find this snipit from Iain Gibson of interest: "Then a few years ago, following my own personal 7-year research project into the impact of alleged Raven ‘predation’ on lambs, I contacted SNH to complain about the misleading information being provided in advisory literature to the farming community, which accepted as a proven premise that Ravens cause serious harm to sheep farming by preying upon lambs. The SNH Adviser I engaged with would not listen to reason and simply repeated tediously that “all these farmers” who reported the predation problem couldn’t be wrong. He had no answer to my point that all the research which has been published, and my own extensive studies, had shown this not to be the case."

I've no direct evidence on the Raven position apart from I quite like them croaking on the hills but the whole series of articles and associated comments makes interesting reading...........if you're interested of course!

 

In reply to Bulls Crack:

It’s exactly that sort of condescending nonsensical tripe that makes farmers & landowners disengage with townie idiots trying to impose their idealistic standards upon them. Seeing something with your own eyes isn’t ‘rural hearsay’. 

 

As for hedgehog decline, you can blame the excessive population of badgers for that one (cracks open new can of worms...). 

In reply to Moley:

Wouldn't a cast ewe be effectively defenceless and therefore it's hardly surprising that Ravens, etc. were trying to feed off it?

 

 

In reply to FactorXXX:

Absolutely, I'm never implying that ravens attack and drag down full grown sheep. But many sheep become cast or stuck for a variety of reasons, perfectly healthy sheep not just sick or dying ones. Once ravens have learnt to maximize this opportunity they are in there quickly and that has cost the farmer a sheep (and possibly the lamb inside). Same with newborn lambs.

People can stick their heads in the sand as much as they like, but it is the farmers living that is taking a hammering so hardly surprising they take a dim view of the raven and not helped by people who do not believe them or say it isn't the ravens fault.

Anyone having their business and livelihood jeopardised will want action taken, no different from a store being hit by shoplifting.

In reply to Fozzy:

1 Not a townie and 2 I worked for many years with farmers and was always struck even amongst the more environmentally friendly ones I tended to work with, how many in the farming community were very willing to adhere to or seize upon , lets say, belief rather than evidence. Not surprising perhaps but when this dogmatism ends up being NFU/CLA policy then that causes problems.